Hey all~

Well, I've recieved Sorcerer in the mail and and am glad to say that I have decided to run a game using its materials, and I'm really excited! Buuuut, as always, there are a few issues that my troupe has and I'm needing some advice from the experts (read: posters in this forum) on how to proceed.

I've asked each of them about how they would feel regarding the subject matter of the game and got mixed responses. Of the two (a girlfriend/boyfriend combo), one (whom I'll call "C") has no reservations about playing with demons, and one (referred to as "K") is wavery on the subject. Ironically the one who is unsure loves to play vampires in a little, unknown White Wolf game. ;)

"K" doesn't mind the dark, harrowed feel of these types of games; in fact, she is intrigued by the World of Darkness and the concept of trying to hold onto humanity and so on. I believe her Christian roots has implanted the idea that all things "demonic" are truly evil and not to be touched (read: she doesn't mind playing in a game that has demons, but she won't summon them/use them for power), and I respect that. This is why I have decided to modify the game a little to allow vampires to exist (albeit very, very rare in the game world) because "K" is comfortable with that sort of thing.

Why I come here is twofold: to ask how to preserve Sorcerer's feel when adding such a myth as Vampires into the game, and to find out how one would conceivably modify the system to create vampire characters. I'm terrible at systems, or at least trying to "balance" them so that one thing doesn't become more dominant than the other. I'm striving for some sort of symmetry between sorcerer characters and the lone vampire that will be campaigning with us; any ideas? And I'm also going to pull some of the more popular powers from "K's" preferred game for her vampire character; again, does anyone know of a way to do this effectively, and is there anything I should avoid?

At the risk of utilizing possibly jaded terms, I'm proud to say that all three of us has a strong bent toward Narrative-style play (with "C" having a bit of gamist in him, but not to our detriment). We all play as though the PCs are *the* main characters in the game, with adjustments to those characters as we see fit to create the most dramatic and intense story possible. It always turns out fun, which is why I'm considering changing the environs a bit (even though I like them as they are) to allow one of my gamers to enjoy herself without forcibly immersing her into something that she isn't comfortable with.

I know that there is plenty more information that I could give about the game, possible powers, ect., but before I get into more specifics could anyone give me suggestions to show they're interested in helping me out? I would really appreciate information and a "Some Possibilities/Some Things Guaranteed To Kill A Game" list. Though I've modified characters, I've never added a whole genre that could potentially change a whole game's feel and playability, which I feel this will do, and I'm striving to get it right :)

Thanks,
Charlie
Charlie

For some help with "K" and her reservations on playing Sorcerer, read this thread. It has some insight into what Sorcerer is really about and why some people waver about it.

Hey Charlie,

[and welcome to The Forge, by the way, if you haven't been already].

You don't need to change the game much to give 'K' a vampire. It'd be a Parasite with a Need to have its host consume blood, it'd bestow demonic abilities, and then throw in a Desire that'll keep things moving. Then all you need is a Kicker. I'd warn against trying to throw in things like keeping out of Daylight, or trying to tack any of that stuff on - it jars, unless it's handled through a Desire or a Need, but the latter has a prior claim in 'blood', though the former has some potential.

Regarding Mind Control [because it'll come up: it always does with that little game about vampires], my suggestion is that you treat it as an attempt to put a possessor into the person to be controlled. It reinforces the horror of having your will stripped away by another for their own ends far more than the 'D' thing does. Speed, strength, bullet-proofness and all are easily covered, but you'll have to be careful - a 'vampire' that's got as many kewl powerz as the greenbook average is a very big demon indeed.

Remember - Sorcerer isn't so much a game as a kit for building a narrow range of games. Which is why I've got to ask three questions:

What is Humanity?

This is the biggest one, and will have an influence on everything else. You might want to consider it as relating to external things, rather than internal ones.

What are 'demons'?

Well, obviously they include "vampires". I think it's Urge that covers this in detail, but you can [obviously] do some thinking about this yourself.

What is 'Sorcerery'?

Again, you're going to have to think about this one - how will 'K' have Bound her inner "vampire"? That's before we get onto Contacting or Summoning it.

- drew

Hi Charlie,

Welcome to the Forge.

At the risk of being redundent and breaking a Forge Taboo:

"What Drew said."

Really. Make the PCs vampires. The game can handle it.

Here's one way of looking at it:

Demons are the things that "make vampires possible." Lore and Ritual are the use of the vampire's Will or Lore to remain in control of a body that wants to decay. The trick for a vampire, a person who's body is wavering in a state of decay is to have *more* power than a mere mortal: more strength, more life, perhaps even immortality.

Lore is the knowledge of how to use these vampiric needs (bloodsucking and such). The Vampire knows there is *something* inside him or her that is not human. It is, as Ron explicitely states, unnatural.

Humanity might be the ability to be... accept one's humanity, mortality, or even "imperfection"

At 0 Humanity you are... perfect, having smothered the human being you once were, free of any doubts, unable to see the world in any way but a looking glass into your own desires, never able to feel for another person again (for that might cause "weakness")

Humanity check to... value life, fragile, failing and finite though it might be

Rituals* are based on... playing on the fear and weakness of "mere" mere mortals

*Note that Ritual is used loosely here. The scene where a vampire scares the shit out of someone for 40 second of screen time simply following them down the street is a "ritual" in this context. In other words, ritual is sadistic, the thrill of the sadist in causing terror and fear in those who are "weaker".

As Jack pointed out, Sorcerer really about summoning red scaled rubber suit guys with pointy tails. Ron would call those folks "devils."

Demans however, can be the liquor in a bottle that the alchoholic needs to feel strong enough to face the day. (Yes, it might give him terrific confidence in a business meeting -- but it Needs choas in the "sorcerer's" family life.) Demons can be Internet porn that makes someone "feel" intamacy with another human being, but really trains one away from human contact. They can be a "love of money" that gives one wealth but demands in return the abuse of those who work for you. Drugs. Obsession with physical perfection. All of these are demons that range the actual world we live in.*

(Disclaimer: I'm not going on record as saying alchohol, porn, money, drugs or daily exercise are demonic. Please notice all the "may"s in the above paragraph. We're talking alchoholism, a "love of" money, anorexia, and so on.)

Sorcerer is about the relationship we form with external powers to gain what we want -- and the tension between what we can get with these powers and what we can get with our own strength.

Humanity, then, is what it means to be human: a mortal creature of blood, muscle and bone living in a social society. The sorcerer has tapped something beyond human life: a creature/thing/habit that promises much but demands in return a (usually) de-socializing relationship and a need to feed habits that the human body usually doesn't need to earn a good day's food and a good night's sleep. He may get what he wants -- but, by definition of his actions, he is no longer human.

The funkiness of the rules allow these needs/demons/feedings/mortal definitions to be tweaked and massaged in countless ways.

Don't get stuck on the rubber suits. "Demon" is a term waiting to be defined, not a thing ready to walk onto a sound stage.

What's the scariest thing you can imagine human beings doing to be "happy"? That's a good first step toward coming up with demons right there.

Your group want to remain elegant, immortal goth beauties. Fabulous. All they have to do is treat the fragile, dull-witted mortals around them as cattle. Sounds like you're on track to me.

Christopher

PS The rules suggest that demons are uniform in each story. That is, I wouldn't recomend one person as a Mage type sorcerer, and one PC as a Vampire and so on. See if you can find the common element to bind the nature of Demons for the whole group. That way everyone at the table is leaning in watching how the other players are dealing with the same issues he or she is dealing with with his or her Sorcerer's demon.

For a slightly more WoD-compatible take on this (if you must do it)...

Treat Demons as manifestations of the Vampire's Beast. The Vampire can cause its Beast to grant it additional abilities (using the mechanics for summoning and binding demons). This tends to come at a cost to the Vampire's humanity. The Beast imposes Needs on the Vampire. These should fall under traditional vampiric weaknesses: the need for Blood, the Need to avoid sunlight, the need to stay garlic-free or whatever. The more powerful the vampire becomes, the more of the traditional vampire-weaknesses it acquires.

You might also want to take some inspiration from Wraith (and the Shadow) to make the Beast sentient.

Hmmm...

Stuart

Stuart,

I get what you're saying, but I'm not convinced that that's the best model. The nature of powers and such in WoD is that they can be advanced by spending experience points. Sorcerer doesn't fit that model at all. Characters change through Sorcerery, or at the end of 'play'. By which I mean that when it seems time to change a character, you create a new one. Or at least, that's how I figure it.

Now, I agree, the idea of Demon as Beast is a good one, but a Demon's powers are 'preset'. They exist, and do not change. To get different powers you have one option - get a new Demon.

- drew

Drew,

Of course Sorcerer is not going to model Vampire exactly- they're different games with different design goals. Why play Sorcerer if what you want to do is model White Wolf vampires?

I suppose my question is this: what is the purpose in allowing K to play a vampire in your game? Is it to give her a White Wolfian character she's used to? Or is it to bring her into the Sorcerer game through a trope she's more comfortable with?

If the concern is that K is squicked by "demons," but not by "vampires," then why do the differences in character advancement between the games matter?

If the concern is that Sorcerer doesn't work, mechanically, like a White Wolf game, why play Sorcerer? It would be far easier to put demon-summoners into the Storyteller system (adapting the rules for Werewolf Theurges binding spirits) than to tweak Sorcerer so that it runs and advances vampires like VtM does.

Also, are you setting up a situation where C is playing Sorcerer and K is playing Vampire? Are you asking for more difficulty for the GM (you) than the extra comfort is worth?

Lon

erithromycin wrote:
I get what you're saying, but I'm not convinced that that's the best model. The nature of powers and such in WoD is that they can be advanced by spending experience points. Sorcerer doesn't fit that model at all. Characters change through Sorcerery, or at the end of 'play'. By which I mean that when it seems time to change a character, you create a new one. Or at least, that's how I figure it.

Now, I agree, the idea of Demon as Beast is a good one, but a Demon's powers are 'preset'. They exist, and do not change. To get different powers you have one option - get a new Demon.

Hi Lon (and all),

Just a point to clarify before the thread gets odd:

Charlie is the original poster, getting ready to play a game with K and C.

Drew was responding to the thread, and, recently, to slizard's suggestions. He is not, as far as I can tell, involved with the group with K and C.

As of this time, Charlie has not yet responed to a raft of ideas, and so we do not know yet what his priorities are.

Time will tell, though.

Christopher

Hey guys~

First I'd like to thank everyone for the posts of information and points; this is my first time, and I appreciate the advice. I'll go through the replies one at a time so I can soak ya dry. ;)

erithromycin
-You said to make the person a Parasite demon. That's an interesting take! I'll look at that option. As far as your questions go, 1) I'd like to think that Humanity is a measure of a person's soul. But what do you mean by "external things"? 2) By demons, I mean the scaly, pointed things that want to take and eat your soul :) Seriously, though, Demons in my game represent a concept of reality and twists it into an evil version that tries to damn the person thats bonded with it, and trying to have a very good time in the process while its on earth (that's some part Nobilis, some part Practical Demonkeeping, and some part plain 'ole evil). 3) Sorcery is done exactly the same in the book, with the background that they are summoning demons that really want to get out of hell and, in the process, destroy/corrupt/influence everything in its path. The only thing keeping it from doing what it wants to do is the Sorcerer's hold over it. --These are only my first ideas, and I'm still reading to decide if I want to change anything.

Christopher, you've added more definition to erithromycin's idea, and I'm saving that post! Thank you both for the wonderful resource of ideas.

Stuart- the thoughts on the Beast is refreshing, because I has totally forgotten about that point entirely. I think that's what I'll do- have the Beast enforce a Need for blood. As far as additional, more "advanced" powers- I'm still looking at that. The system as stands seems as though powers can start powerful right off the bat, so I'll have to see what works.
(Also, on another note, watching Interview with a Vampire, each vampire has unique powers.)

Lon, I'm not sure if your post is directed to me or to Drew, but I will answer these as I can. The purpose of allowing K to play a vampire in a Sorcerer game is to allow her to feel more comfortable with the Sorcerer concept, hopefully opening up a door or to in the future. As far as game advancement, that's not an issue with me. And yes, I am allowing C to play a sorcerer and K to play a vampire. I am taking on this burden to allow a valued member of my troupe to play without problems. To me, as a GM, I'm rather excited about this, though I wish I could play Sorcerer first w/o trying to modify it right off the bat.

If I interpreted anything wrong, I apologize. So far, though, this thread has done a wonderful job in giving me information! Now I just have to further define Humanity and Demon, and what it means to be a vampire.

Charlie

I know I just posted, but after looking at the posts, tell me what everyone thinks of this idea:

To simulate the vampire idea, I was thinking of a Parasite demon with a need for Blood (thanks, erithromycin!) and varied abilities, one of which would be the "Spawn" ability to "pass down" the vampire-like demon. I like this one because it keeps the actual demon in play, and limits the hundreds and hundreds of vampires in WoD to just a few in MY world. :) What do you think?

Charlie

Right, this is becoming a little confused, so I'm going to try to address points made by a number of people in a sensible way. Wish me luck.

Lon, many of those questions are best answered by Charlie, but my concern about character advancement was that "K" might have expectations of how her character would change from WoD, and I was concerned that that might make introducing Sorcerer difficult. I'm also, in general, not happy with 'changing' Demons in play, by 'adding' powers to an individual Demon. It just strikes me as too reminiscent of powering up a Pokemon. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Stuart, yes, that does make more sense - in fact, that's what I'd said originally, when I'd mentioned getting an extra 'Beast', but I changed it to 'Demon' for clarity. Oops.

Chris, thanks for clarifying the situation. You're right, I'm not involved in the game with "K", "C", or Charlie.

Charlie, by 'external things' I meant how the character related to the outside world - Christopher's point about "immortal goth beauties" who remain so by "treating the fragile, dull-witted mortals around them as cattle". I always find that moral decline is best illustrated by actions rather than internal angst. The phrase "measure of a person's soul" is a good one, but can I suggest that "the ability to interact with others as people rather than things" is a stronger, more 'active' definition - at the very least it makes it easier to determine when Humanity checks are in order.

Regarding Demons, fine, they're interested in trying to damn people, having fun, and what not, but they seem like descriptions that will make NPCing them easier - from what you've mentioned though, and this is just me throwing it out, their goal is to take over. So your "vampire" wants to reduce its host to Humanity 0, because then it's won. In "The Sorcerer's Soul" Ron discusses the heady concepts of turning people into demons and the reverse in excruciating and inspiring detail, but you can, because it's your game, rule that at Humanity 0 the 'Beast' [or 'Beasts'] have won, and "K" has a character that's now just a "vampire". No soul left.

As for Sorcerery, it might be done 'exactly from the book', but I think you might want to go and read a thread from the Adept Press forum Where is "Not Here" before you suggest that Demons come from 'Hell'. Remember that, as a Parasite, a "vampire-Demon" needs a Host. So the extended Contact and Summoning Rituals may well be the hunt for a worthy "childe" and the process of draining him/her/it of blood and then putting some more back in. "Sorcerer & Sword" would call that Necromancy, and so would I, but I digress. Spawn isn't the right way to approach it, though I understand your desire to keep the number of vamps small in your gameworld. If vampirism is a subset of Sorcery, however, the numbers will remain small - you're either a vampiric lackey of a sorcerer [a possessor in a normal human] or you're a vampiric "master" yourself [a parasite in a Sorcerer]. Do you see what I'm saying?

Charlie, regarding your point to Lon - don't think of it as allowing "K" to play a "vampire" and "C" to play a Sorcerer. This isn't what's happening, even though it looks like it. What you're doing is defining one 'school' of Sorcery, that just happens to look a lot like vampirism. There are still Demons, and rituals, and the potential for Humanity loss, and that's what's important. The intriguing thing is that if one large set of myth pattern is 'based' on one 'school' of Sorcery, what about the rest? Does "C" have an idea for a character?

Finally, as a fellow GM, let me just say that you shouldn't worry about 'modifying' Sorcerer. You're not, really - you're doing what you're meant to - you're defining Humanity, Sorcery, and Demons within the context of the game you want to play.

- drew

edit: Hanging Tag! I'll hang you, Tag!

I have to ask, did you read the thread I linked to? "K's" issue with demons may be just the word demon, but it may be deeper than that. Converting vampires into a form of demon seems to be dodging the actual issue, I think.

Charlie,

Sorry. I'd somehow confused your post and Drew's.

Carry on...

Lon

This one's specifically for Jack- What K dislikes is the actual notion of the "summoning"; she doesn't like the idea of her character knowingly and willingly summoning a demon into play. For her (the player), that's taboo. After talking with her about the parasite-demon and how it was possible to become a "vampire" like that, she was intrigued. So it *looks* like I've got the perfect solution.
This is where another problem arises, though. She wishes to play a sorcerer without the consequences- a character that receives the power demons offer without grasping the whole of the situation, all the while trying to keep her humanity. Yes, as a "vampire" she'd have humanity checks and such, but its always something out of her control vs. a conscious (?) decision her character makes. But, I think thats how she wants to play- she loves the innocent-are-damned concept. On the other hand, though, I get the impression that Sorcerer is best played as characters knowingly and willingly damn themselves for power, making them wholly un-innocent. That's the crossroads I'm at know- is K getting the easy way out?
So, to wrap it up in one sentence, K is okay with playing a parasite-demon that's Need is Blood and whos powers resemble that of a traditional vampire, but she wants nothing to do with the "character summons up a demon and binds it to her," preferring she be innocent but damned by things outside of her control.

I hope all that makes sense. And I hope she's not getting away with anything, 'cause that's how I feel. ;)

And Drew, your many points (after reading them and rereading them) are clear to me now; you've HAD to have played Sorcerer before. Thanks so much for the words, I'll try to use them effectively. I do have to ask- would "The Sorcerer's Soul" come in handy regarding the situations I'm having to work with? You quoted it once in a previous post, and I'm interested.

All in all, thanks for the great replies. I've got some work ahead of me now. :)

Charlie

Well, it really sounds like K doesn't want to be playing Sorceror, ultimately.

Sure. She could play her Sorceror-as-Vampire with its Parasite-as-Beast or whatever. She doesn't HAVE to act in ways that would cause her to loose humanity. She could try playing the innocent.

Would you enjoy playing this quasi-sorceror with her?

Stuart

I'm going to agree with Stuart here in saying that it sounds like "K" really doesn't want to play Sorcerer. What I mean is, I had often read Ron's opinion of the World of Darkness series. It's in the thread I linked:

Let's say, for sake of discussion, that you and I agree that "demons" in the common superstition/religion sense of the word do not exist in real life. That they are pure metaphor for something that is itself very real, very troubling, and instantly mentally-accessible to nearly any human being. So when I say "my game is about summoning and commanding demons," two reactions can ensue. The trivial one is to pop the whole issue into denial and turn it into some adolescent, bogus thing like what White Wolf games do (and do, and do, most recently and most literally in Hunter: the Reckoning). The meaty one is to shudder. Just to shudder.

Sorcerer, page 78, "Sneaky Player Tricks"
"K" is trying to be a sneaky player...

The big note I'll put here is that the character has to have summoned and bound a demon at some point in pre-play, specifically the parasite she is hosting, you cannot be an Accidental Sorcerer.

For the sake of argument, let us say she didn't...trying to take this "innocent" angle. Then the parasite is summoned and bound and placed within her by another (a sorcerer). She is now at the whim of not only the parasite, but this sorcerer as well, because she is not a sorcerer, she is a host.

The parasite, being a demon, will take commands from its master -- not her, oh sure, it may do what she says when she wants it if she is the user of a specific power, but if the master says "Jump" and she doesn't "Jump," it may decide not to help her out when she needs it by withholding the use of its powers from her...or it may play along, and push her to rebel and Bind it instead (and if she doesn't go for that, it will definitely rebel).

Remember, a demon is always in control of the use of its powers -- in that they say whether they are available or not when the sorcerer says, "Go!"

Remember, the parasite will expect fulfillment of its Need, or the parasite rebels by not allowing access to its abilities. The sorcerer who summoned it into her may very well say, "You will fulfill its Need." She can choose to do so, or choose not to...the results of this are by her choice, and so Humanity checks are by her choice -- there's nothing making her do anything.

If she doesn't fulfill the parasite's Need and Desire, the parasite goes into Need and also starts rebelling -- cutting off access to its powers and using others (for which it is the user) when she doesn't want it to. Its master may come looking for her as well to take his "gift" away and leave a corpse behind. Make all this clear.

Ultimately, for this to be sorcerer play, you would have to push her into a corner where the outcome is either using sorcery, death or something worse.

Are you prepared to do that?

So she either willingly, consciously does sorcery to Banish the parasite (and pisses off the sorcerer), Bind the parasite to herself (again, pissing off the sorcerer), goes along with the task, or dies.

Remember that Sorcerer is about choices. I have a feeling that for this particular player, the result of an actual Sorcerer game will be her leaving the table ticked off because you "screwed her over." Be prepared for that, and discuss such happening at the outset, before play even begins.

Even skipping the whole "sorcerous master" angle (which I see no way to avoid...someone, somewhere summoned this creature and then bound it), the parasite cannot make the character do anything, so she can't "get away" with being innocent and not choosing actions that necessitate Humanity checks.

So, when she uses, "Oh, I didn't want it! Boo-hoo-hoo! I have to drink blood to live!" The only answer in Sorcerer play is thus, "Then kill yourself!"

*golf clap for the Rev. Ravenscrye Grey Daegmorgan *

Brilliant, man. I didn't think of that angle, that K's character may not be a Sorcerer at all but just the host for the demon and the user of its power.

Charlie, listen to him and put his advice into effect in your game. Bloody hell, yeah!

The "master vampire" could be the sorcerer, with his/her demon having the Spawn power... K's character is host for a vampiric spawn. Sure, it tweaks the spwan power a little, but what the hell...

Again, golf clap for Raven. The key here is that the powers do not belong to K's character, they belong to the demon, and are ultimately under the command of the sorcerer.

Lon

Charlie, you're welcome. Regarding "The Sorcerer's Soul", it's your call. I've got it, I like it, but you don't need it. Certainly not in the same way that you'd need a Dungeon Master's Guide or the like. It's got more essays about stuff, some extra rules, but I found it most useful in helping me 'get' Sorcerer. I'm not entirely sure if it would help you with the situations you're dealing with - in many ways it serves as a condensation of the kind of discussion that we're having here, right now.

As for the current 'quasi-Sorcerer' thing that's going on, I'm intrigued, and have an idea - what if the whole process of "vampirism" is placing the Parasite that we've been discussing in someone, and leaving them to it? Now, they'll be a mite Sorcerous, maybe even a lot, but it places all sorts of intriguing moral conundrums in front of "K". Now, admittedly, to many of the WoD schooled players that I know, that would reek of GM manipulation to "screw them over", but as far as I'm concerned that's the unique Sorcerer difference. By which I mean you'd have to persuade her to agree, or find some other compromise.

So, here's my idea. The "master vampire" Contacts and Summons a Demon, a Parasite, whose Need is blood, and whose Desire is to have its Host Bind it. That's an awful lot of capitalised words. So now I'm wondering about how running with an 'unbound' Demon would work. Of course, it makes a fantastic Kicker. Now all you need to do is figure out how the Binding is meant to work, which means a reexamination of the nature of Sorcery.

It's certainly an interesting variation on the whole 'Apprentice' structure of indoctrination in Sorcery, and it might work. Still, I do need to ask, what kind of character does "C" have in mind?

To digress, Charlie, have you read any of Nancy A Collin's "Sonja Blue" series? Because this is what I'm reminded of now.

Regarding the Reverend's comments, I concur wholeheartedly, but I'm going to go a step further:

So, when she uses, "Oh, I didn't want it! Boo-hoo-hoo! I have to drink blood to live!" The only answer in Sorcerer play is thus, "Then kill yourself!"

Two things:

Firstly, my new improved, capable of making thousands of julienne fries suggestion is to have the "master vampire" place the Parasite Demon within a Contain, whose domain happens to be limited to the character "K" will be playing. I'm not sure what would break the Contain, but it does introduce various potential themes and conflicts, not least the idea that where there are moral choices to be made is failing to make a choice a valid option? Does that make sense?

Secondly, Charlie, given that this thread is your hijacked baby, do you want to carry on with it?

- drew