I'm planning on using the RoS game system in the War Hammer background. Now, the group I'm with has, through bitter experience with my games, gotten well accustomed to 'combined arms' fighting, as do the NPCs.

What I mean is, the group will have missile users (usually archers) firing from the flanks while melee types close.

Now, the RoS initiative system seems largely focused on a duel-style combat with melee; how would I coordinate the above situation, initiative-wise? Figure 6-8 PCs and roughly the same number of NPCs (with RoS, gone are the days of 'the party against a tribe', and I'm glad).

Any ideas?

Have every round equal one second. Archers would go first in a round (for simplicity) or in descending order according to reflex. If you want to speed it up, make every round 2 seconds, which will have archers firing twice as often. In TROS bows are a blood-curdling advantage, but they have their limitations.

Jake

I'm not sure about historical accuracy (I have heard reports of British Longbowmen being able to put 5 shafts into a target 50 yards away in five seconds, but don't know how "fanciful" those reports are) but from a playable/fun point of view, I find that 1 second rounds disadvantages archers so much nobody wants to play them - only getting off one shot every 2-3 rounds isn't much fun it seems :-) You also have the question as to when exactly in the round the archer fires.

So, I made all exchanges be one second, thus all rounds are two (Jake's second suggestion). This means that a) you know when in a round the archer fires (at the end of the relevant exchange, is my rule) and b) they can fire twice as fast - on average every 1.5 rounds or so (or sometimes even once a round with a not fully refreshed MP)

It works pretty well.

Brian.

according to Conquest, those stats would be accurate Brian...

Those are some scary-ass stats then :-)

Brian Leybourne wrote: I'm not sure about historical accuracy (I have heard reports of British Longbowmen being able to put 5 shafts into a target 50 yards away in five seconds, but don't know how "fanciful" those reports are) but from a playable/fun point of view, I find that 1 second rounds disadvantages archers so much nobody wants to play them - only getting off one shot every 2-3 rounds isn't much fun it seems :-) You also have the question as to when exactly in the round the archer fires.

So, I made all exchanges be one second, thus all rounds are two (Jake's second suggestion). This means that a) you know when in a round the archer fires (at the end of the relevant exchange, is my rule) and b) they can fire twice as fast - on average every 1.5 rounds or so (or sometimes even once a round with a not fully refreshed MP)

It works pretty well.

Brian.

The average English Military Archer could fire 12 to 15 arrows per minute and hit a man-sized target at a minimum of 200 yards. The maximum range was about 400 yards with flight arrows. An archer could not even consider himself skilled at his art if he could not shoot 10 arrows a minute!

hmm shadeling, you call what brian posted fanciful....oddly, you posted something that showed brian was being more realistic than you... he posted 5 shafts in a target in 50 seconds, you posted 10 arrows, in 1 minute... as a minimum....interesting?... definately, lets go with brians example


5 shafts in 50 minutes, obviously 1 shaft every 10 second...your stats on the other hand.,(you'll love this one)

hmmm 10 shafts in a minute, meaning 1 shot every 6 seconds....wow which is more fanciful?!

prophet118 wrote: hmm shadeling, you call what brian posted fanciful....oddly, you posted something that showed brian was being more realistic than you... he posted 5 shafts in a target in 50 seconds, you posted 10 arrows, in 1 minute... as a minimum....interesting?... definately, lets go with brians example


5 shafts in 50 minutes, obviously 1 shaft every 10 second...your stats on the other hand.,(you'll love this one)

hmmm 10 shafts in a minute, meaning 1 shot every 6 seconds....wow which is more fanciful?!

I'm not sure about historical accuracy (I have heard reports of British Longbowmen being able to put 5 shafts into a target 50 yards away in five seconds

whoops, looks like im being a bit dyslexic today, sorry

prophet118 wrote: whoops, looks like im being a bit dyslexic today, sorry

though in my own defense, i meant to say "5 shafts in 50 seconds", not 50 minutes...lol

A one-second combat round? so you could make 120 exchanges in a minute? WTF?

I already dropped the combat round to 6 seconds, two three-second exchanges, and I still think that's a bit fast.

I'm thinking of adopting a modified Hackmaster system: roll a 1d10, modify by agility, the 1-10 result (less than one is 1, more than 10 is ten) being which of the ten segments in a round you move on. Once melee combatants have closed to 'stance' range, they'll switch to the RoS rules, since nobody likes to fire into a melee.

As to the archer rates, at least one arrow per my six-second round would seem viable, and perhaps two (or three every two rounds), as hitting a target at 200 yards takes more aiming than hitting one at twenty.

Darth Tang wrote: A one-second combat round? so you could make 120 exchanges in a minute? WTF?

I already dropped the combat round to 6 seconds, two three-second exchanges, and I still think that's a bit fast.

I'm thinking of adopting a modified Hackmaster system: roll a 1d10, modify by agility, the 1-10 result (less than one is 1, more than 10 is ten) being which of the ten segments in a round you move on. Once melee combatants have closed to 'stance' range, they'll switch to the RoS rules, since nobody likes to fire into a melee.

As to the archer rates, at least one arrow per my six-second round would seem viable, and perhaps two (or three every two rounds), as hitting a target at 200 yards takes more aiming than hitting one at twenty.

Brian Leybourne wrote:
Oh, and for the record - firing into melee is a bloody good tactic in TROS.. several warriors with an archer backing them up can take on forces that would otherwise kill them easily. There's no real justification for the D&D "if you fire into combat you have a 50% chance to hit a friend" rule.. sure, that could happen if you're firing randomly into combat, but picking a target, drawing a bead on them, and then having the reflexes to release at the right second (which I probably couldn't do, but then I don't have a proficiency of 7 in longbow) wouldn't be that hard. D&D's justification is "balance" (i.e. the archer is relatively safe while standing back and shooting and that's unfair to the warriors trisking their HP in melee) but in TROS we don't care about balance so much.

Brian.

Aaron wrote:

Brian Leybourne wrote:
Oh, and for the record - firing into melee is a bloody good tactic in TROS.. several warriors with an archer backing them up can take on forces that would otherwise kill them easily. There's no real justification for the D&D "if you fire into combat you have a 50% chance to hit a friend" rule.. sure, that could happen if you're firing randomly into combat, but picking a target, drawing a bead on them, and then having the reflexes to release at the right second (which I probably couldn't do, but then I don't have a proficiency of 7 in longbow) wouldn't be that hard. D&D's justification is "balance" (i.e. the archer is relatively safe while standing back and shooting and that's unfair to the warriors trisking their HP in melee) but in TROS we don't care about balance so much.

Brian.

I hate to be the one to stick up for d20 but there aint no 50% chance to hit your mate rule in 3rd ed. That being said I was wondering if anyone had come up with a way to throw or shoot without taking any refresh time. It doesn't seem that unreasonable for someone to throw a dagger as its drawn from its sheath or throw a rock as they pick it up without taking a second to ready. Just look at cricketers or baseball fieldsman. they will quite often throw a ball on a blind turn or as they grab it without taking a second to aim.
Aaron

Shadeling wrote:

Think about this for a moment-it at least takes a second or two to cock back your arm and throw something. A second is quite fast, and while throwing the object you may not think seconds are flying by, but they are. I would say in such situations you would still have a tiny bit of prep time, but aren't letting your MP refresh fully.

Aaron wrote: I hate to be the one to stick up for d20 but there aint no 50% chance to hit your mate rule in 3rd ed.

Aaron wrote: That being said I was wondering if anyone had come up with a way to throw or shoot without taking any refresh time. It doesn't seem that unreasonable for someone to throw a dagger as its drawn from its sheath or throw a rock as they pick it up without taking a second to ready. Just look at cricketers or baseball fieldsman. they will quite often throw a ball on a blind turn or as they grab it without taking a second to aim.

Aaron wrote:

Shadeling wrote:

Think about this for a moment-it at least takes a second or two to cock back your arm and throw something. A second is quite fast, and while throwing the object you may not think seconds are flying by, but they are. I would say in such situations you would still have a tiny bit of prep time, but aren't letting your MP refresh fully.

But Shadeling, I thought the MP doens't start to refresh until after my arm is cocked. Thats part of the preperation time, or have I read that wrong. I assumed that " Refresh begins with cocking back to throw" means I have to have it cocked before refresh begins.
Aaron

Aaron wrote: But Shadeling, I thought the MP doens't start to refresh until after my arm is cocked. Thats part of the preperation time, or have I read that wrong. I assumed that " Refresh begins with cocking back to throw" means I have to have it cocked before refresh begins.
Aaron

speaking as someone wh does a fair amount of D&D, you only stand a chance of hitting a party members in melee if you miss your target number by 4 or less....if i remember correctly

Brian Leybourne wrote:

You can shoot with a zero refresh time. At minimum a longbow takes 2 seconds to draw (assuming no extra time for getting the arrow). Once it's drawn, you get your Wit in MP each round, starting right away. Also, you can spend 2 MP (that you don't have yet) to roll to reduce the time by 1 second.

So, assuming your wit is more than 4, you can reduce the time to knock and draw to 0 seconds. Assuming you have a wit of 6 (say) this means you can whip out an arrow and fire with 2 dice in no time at all, or with 8 dice in 1 second (an exchange). Not terribly accurate perhaps, but even one success lets you add the +8 bow damage. If your opponent is lightly armored it could be very nasty for him.

In general though, it *should* take a few seconds to knock, draw and launch. You'll see above that 15 accurate shots in a minute was considered pretty good, which is one shot every 4 seconds. That works out just about right in TROS. And if you think about it, even throwing something without aiming does take a second or two for your arm to come back and then whip forward.

Brian.

Brian, I haven't played D&D since the mid-80s.

I collect battle-ready (I.e., sharp, good steel, & balanced) medieval weapons, which I train with. There is no way you can make 120, or even 60, combat swings in a minute. Maybe if you flailed madly at a log like a windmill, but to make forcefull, aimed strikes...no way. I chose an arming sword, went out, and chopped up a float (keg-sized styrofoam dock support) while my wife timed me. There's just no way; I'm not an expert, but a strike a second is unrealistic. Two exchanges in six seconds is, IMO, borderline, but I'm willing to live with it.

As to firing into melee, that's patently absurd. I've been a police officer for over two decades, and have participated in many a 'scrimmage'. I can't count the number of times another officer or myself has swung a club at one participant only to hit someone else because in the brief interval between committing to a swing and connection, the target moved. That's a fraction of a second. Because in a melee, people dance around, duck, weave, throw punches. Move, in other words. Something, to use your example, D&D did not cover, but RoS does.

The reason I bought RoS is that I heard it had a realistic combat system. Firing into melee is the kind of 'gamer junk' I'm trying to escape.

Its obvious I'm wasteing my time here. My 'increment' Initiative system will have to serve until I think of something better.

I just played with my waster, about 1 full arm swing a second worked for me, I didnt hit 60 plus because I got tired at 15 and slowed down. Now, let me get into wrist strikes, rune strikes or krumpaus and I can go much faster. Give me an opponent wo parries my swing and immediately counter cuts or uses a master cut and accomplishes this in one blow and 1-2 second rounds is quite realistic. although I would love it ifa guy took 3 seconds to swing at me, that would make a rookie like me have a greater life span in a duel! the reasons that 60-120 swings do not occur is because people stop, seperate and circle for advantage, this is simulated quite well in teh game. Fatigue is another reason, also handled in game. you d not need to alter the time of exchanges, it would be superfulous, but you can if you really really want to.

Darth Tang wrote: Brian, I haven't played D&D since the mid-80s.

I collect battle-ready (I.e., sharp, good steel, & balanced) medieval weapons, which I train with. There is no way you can make 120, or even 60, combat swings in a minute. Maybe if you flailed madly at a log like a windmill, but to make forcefull, aimed strikes...no way. I chose an arming sword, went out, and chopped up a float (keg-sized styrofoam dock support) while my wife timed me. There's just no way; I'm not an expert, but a strike a second is unrealistic. Two exchanges in six seconds is, IMO, borderline, but I'm willing to live with it.

Shadeling wrote: [Think about this for a moment-it at least takes a second or two to cock back your arm and throw something.

Brian Leybourne wrote

You can shoot with a zero refresh time. At minimum a longbow takes 2 seconds to draw (assuming no extra time for getting the arrow). Once it's drawn, you get your Wit in MP each round, starting right away. Also, you can spend 2 MP (that you don't have yet) to roll to reduce the time by 1 second.

Bob Richter wrote:

Shadeling wrote: [Think about this for a moment-it at least takes a second or two to cock back your arm and throw something.

Tell that to a major-league pitcher. :)

A second or two?

You mean like one-mississippi two-mississippi?

like that?

That's a long, bleeding time.

Bob Richter wrote: [That depends on what you call a melee. Fistfights occur at arm's length. Sword-fights occur at swords-length. This gives the combatants a lot of separation, and in the fraction of a second it takes for a projectile to cross a few dozen yards, not much will have changed. Police snipers are often actually EXPECTED to perform this kind of shooting, and the much harder task of hitting a suspect engaged in grappling with a victim.

Have two guys go at it with bofffer swords. Try to hit one (but not the other) with a kickball. I think you'd be surprised how EASY it is.

DT-

A couple of notes:

(1) I'm glad you're modifying things to your liking. I want people to do that. The system is built for a few tastes, and I've always been a fan of things like Legolas firing into the crowd and taking out his man...so I'm "okay" with that. As a Police Officer I'll bow out to your knowledge on the probabilities of that IRL.

(2) On the sword end, I'm going to back up my +/- 2 sec. round. I'm an avid and world-ranked HEMA practicioner. In short bursts I could easily throw 3 hits in one second...aimed, forcefull, and to more than one target (and I am certainly inferior to our ancestors who fought like this life-or-death). That being said, it's fatigue that keeps me from doing that for long. A "real fight" general consists of several short (5 seconds or less, genearlly) furious bursts of action followed by either a dead man or circling--where nothing is happening. In TROS game terms, that's a sudden burst of about 3 rounds (6 exchanges) give or take, one of which ends in a Full Evasion and several rounds of circling as both parties ditch and fatigue that's built up. Then another burst. If your players are going through full-blown combat rounds for more than 10 seconds, then you're probably not using fatigue rules (which are a little cumbersome, as fatigues rules always seem to be, but they also solve your problem).

Finally, on a technique note, hitting so much in a short time requires the use of *Duplieren, Schnappen, cuts with both edges, wrist and half-arm cuts, and especially rundstreichs. This all assumes a blade or weapon of proper (period) balance and weight. Also, I'll admit that if you struck an opponent solidly that would generally (but not assuredly) slow things down...that's left out of the system, since a round is meant to be an elastic time frame.

When it comes down to it, a second is a long time. 3-second rounds are fine, but a 6-second round starts to sound like boffer fighting or SCA combat (which is essentially a sport). Remember, though, sometimes it's 1 second, other times it might be 3 seconds. The "2 seconds" is a good generalization when calcultating in other's initiative (such as missle weapons). Don't forget the MP modifiers for hitting "erratically moving targets," like fighters.

Jake

*Note: I'm not just "throwing around" terms here. I'm assuming that you know what those are as a user of "battle-ready" swords (which usually aren't, but that's another debate). For the rest of our listeners, Duplieren is doubling the blade around the opponents, schappen are sudden snapping strikes made following a disengage, and rundstreichs are cuts made using the momentum of the last cut, so that the sword wheels around instead of stopping or changing direction suddenly. Those are rough definitions, but they should work.

Jake, I'm familar with the terms (but still impressed); I've a steadily growing library on the use of my weapons. I'm confident in the 'battle-ready-ness' of my weapons, although you're right, many out there are junk. The mainstay of much of my purchases are Del Tin (sharpened, of course), with a couple Paul Chens, some Iberia, and some Kris (don't let the prices fool you-they're solid).

I test all of them on Boer goat carcasses (I buy 'em alive, since the local stores don't carry goat, put them down, dress them, and then test my weapons before skinnin' & grillin').

But to my six-second rule: first, I've used it in both campaigns I've run lately (all six of my players have played in both), and secondly, I feel its more realistic (split into two three-second engagements). I lack (& envy)your formal training in the art of the blade, but on the other hand I've had scores of non-leathal encounters with and without blunt impact weapons. The latter has caused me to length the round to take into account what I call the 'fumble factor', which is the wasted time you get from adreilin-clumsy fingers.

And also, it allows a reasonable amount of non-combat activity to occur as well; I can count on a fifth of the PCs run in my campaign to avoid violence at all costs, and thus the round has to take into account what they will be doing as well. Plus, as stated, the tendacy towards missile fire in my campaigns. Once melee is joined, the missile troops either jump in as well, or blaze away at the enemy missile troops. Or wait and watch: if a PC gets knocked down, the archer will then have a reasonable clear shot, and a chance to prevent the coup de grace.

And I always modify systems. I'm going to use the RoS game system, with RM Spell Law, in the War Hammer world setting, adding a class & level system of my own design.

DT-

It seems that you're happy with what you're doing, so I'm happy. I'm glad that the game accomodates the changes that you want it in (I believe it does). I guess the best question to ask someone is "why?" when they want to change something. If the know why (as you do), then it's a justified change. Game on.

A for your Boer-goat cutting...cool. I'm envious of cutting on targets that "realistic." (And it's kind of you to put them down first.) How does the goat taste? Never eaten goat, but I eat the cheese...

Okay, the goat thing is probably a better PM discussion.

Jake

Shadeling wrote:

Ever seen a 'pitcher' wind-up...to me that is a second or two of prep time.

Bob Richter wrote:

Shadeling wrote:

Ever seen a 'pitcher' wind-up...to me that is a second or two of prep time.

Ever seen one throw a ball to keep a guy who just tried to steal second honest? :)

Time the wind-up, some time. That ain't no two seconds.

Bob Richter wrote:

Shadeling wrote:

Ever seen a 'pitcher' wind-up...to me that is a second or two of prep time.

Ever seen one throw a ball to keep a guy who just tried to steal second honest? :)

Time the wind-up, some time. That ain't no two seconds.