Hello all!

I've been trying to keep up with this forum (because this game and you guys are so darn cool) but it has been quite hard because of all the posts and time constraints so forgive me if these are some old questions being brought to the forefront.

First of all are there any defaults for wrestling, or any defaults to lances say from polearms or possibly other weapon styles?

Secondly when you are a landed nobility is the gold you get each year a profit that goes stright to you or do you still have to pay for your servants and such? Along those same lines do you get a furnished manor(within reason) or do you just get the lands and the serfs and you need to use your gold to outfit everything in your manor and also maybe outfit your servants and your garrison?[Please try and explain this one as fully as possible for what they get because it kinda matters, thanks]

I now this is probably a silly question but just to be clear, When you hire mercenary men do you need to supply them with weapons and or arrows and such or does the hire cost cover all expences associated with them. AKA they bring all their own stuff

This is all I have for now but i'm sure I forgot some things.

Thank you in advance

-Kevin Beyer

Well i dont have the book on hand so im not sure about the first two but the way i play as far as paying for mercenaries is that they bring all their own stuff up to a point. I mean, have you ever read a book where a mercenary comes to the job unprepared and has to go out and buy stuff? Nah, hes always got everything on hand. now if there is something outlandish or out of the ordinary for a mercenary there might be an extra charge. i also charge different prices for different jobs. it would cost more to hire a mercenary to kill someone than to steal from them or protect you for example.

Actually, on second thought, i dont think there are any defaults for lances, but im not sure. i believe there are defaults for wrestling.

Gidday Kevin, welcome to the forum.

Actually, I don't recall any of your specific questions being asked before, so you don't have to worry about that. As a general rule, though, we encourage folk to have a nosey through the old topics on the forum, there's some really good stuff out there, some of it hard to find these days :-) (A good place to start is the "new to the forum? Read this first" sticky post, although that's not all-inclusive of all the good stuff on here).

Defaults
According to the manual, most weapon styles default FROM wrestling, but none of them default to it. Now, in your own game you're of course free to do whatever you like, but that's just the way Jake sees it. I wasn't there when he wrote it, but I'm guessing the concept is that when you learn to wrestle and brawl with your hands, a lot of the techniques and moves are useful in other weapon/fighting styles, thus the default from Wrestling. The reverse isn't necessarily true though - just because I can swing a sword I don't really know how to grab someone and choke-hold them. That's IMO of course, and YMMV.

Lances? Well, there are no defaults from or to lances, and that really makes sense. Being able to sit straight, stay on, coax the horse the way you want to go, and hold a long stick straight while letting momentum do it's thing is totally different from being able to move about without the horse, and stick someone with the pointy end of something sharp. That's why no defaults. Again, Jake may contradict me here but I'm pretty sure I have it right - I used to fence and I also used to live on a farm with several horses, so I'm at least slightly knowledgable about the difference :-)

Landed Nobility
Check out table 7.4 in book seven, it explains that landed nobility spend (approx) 20% of their wealth each year on a Seneschal who manages their affairs. I would say that would cover a small staff (who the Seneschal pays from the money you give him), and a landed nobility title would most likely come with a mansion (unless you were awarded it in game and it was a split of someone elses land). The best answer here, of course, is: a) it would be different from country to country and b) do it how you like, it's your game now, we're just here to bounce ideas off of.

I would rule that you have to pay the cost of your own garrison, however. Table 7.5 in book 7 outlines the cost of guardsmen and suchlike per month, and yes, you have to outfit them as well. Being nobility is expensive, you know. :-)

Mercenaries
As for mercenaries, no, they would come with their own gear. Of course, the more you pay them, the better they are and the better gear they have. They're also a lot more expensive than hiring guardsmen.

Anyway, welcome again to the forum.

Brian.

Brian Leybourne wrote:
According to the manual, most weapon styles default FROM wrestling, but none of them default to it. Now, in your own game you're of course free to do whatever you like, but that's just the way Jake sees it. I wasn't there when he wrote it, but I'm guessing the concept is that when you learn to wrestle and brawl with your hands, a lot of the techniques and moves are useful in other weapon/fighting styles, thus the default from Wrestling. The reverse isn't necessarily true though - just because I can swing a sword I don't really know how to grab someone and choke-hold them. That's IMO of course, and YMMV

Brian Leybourne wrote:
Lances? Well, there are no defaults from or to lances, and that really makes sense. Being able to sit straight, stay on, coax the horse the way you want to go, and hold a long stick straight while letting momentum do it's thing is totally different from being able to move about without the horse, and stick someone with the pointy end of something sharp. That's why no defaults. Again, Jake may contradict me here but I'm pretty sure I have it right - I used to fence and I also used to live on a farm with several horses, so I'm at least slightly knowledgable about the difference :-)

Brian.

Aaron wrote:

Brian Leybourne wrote:
According to the manual, most weapon styles default FROM wrestling, but none of them default to it.

Other way around in the book I think. :-) Everything defaults to wrestling but nothing defaults from.

Aaron wrote: Having a little trouble seeing why nothing defaults to lance myself. Since all the other proficiencies can be used on foot or on horseback, within reason, how can using a lance be any more dissimilar than say using polearm proficiency on foot and a cut and thrust from horse back? personaly I gave it a -5 default

I don't have the book here, so can't compare how I read what it says in there, I know however that one of them old Fechtbuecher states "All fencing comes from wrestling". Now, that didn't keep masters at arms from teaching armed combat first in some cases, but it frequently contained a gratuitous kick of bash with the fist, or the recommendation to go into unarmed combat at a certain point (e.g. a "durchlaufen" under the opponent's blade)

Brian and the rest of you, thank you for the posts I really appreciate it! And yes Brian i've looked at the newbie section before I posted...great job by the way!

I do still have a couple other questions though. You say that none of the weapons default to wrestling but under all the weapon styles in my book anyway they have the default to wrestling under all the styles and under the wrestling style they have nothing listed after this. I though that the defaults listed after each weapon style default to the styles listed at that cost(pg 50 upper right hand paragraph)? Sorry I'm a little confused.

Secondly what do you use as a cost for barding? I was thinking that according to how you do fine quality and best quality items that standard barding would possibly be 5x the cost of whatever armor you want on the horse. Does this sound right?

Thank you,
Kevin

Ha, now I'm confused.

The defaults listed under each weapon are your default for other stuff. So, on p. 55, Pole Axe, if you have a Pole Axe Prof. of 7 then your default for C&T is 4, Dagger is 4, Wrestling is 4, and Pole-Arms is 6, etc. Make sense?

All proficiences default some to wrestling because it's assumed that a swordsman/etc. has learned to wrestle as part of the foundation Irmo talked about. I know lots (and I mean lots) of wrestlers that can't swing a sword, though.

Jake

Jake Norwood wrote: Ha, now I'm confused.

The defaults listed under each weapon are your default for other stuff. So, on p. 55, Pole Axe, if you have a Pole Axe Prof. of 7 then your default for C&T is 4, Dagger is 4, Wrestling is 4, and Pole-Arms is 6, etc. Make sense?

All proficiences default some to wrestling because it's assumed that a swordsman/etc. has learned to wrestle as part of the foundation Irmo talked about. I know lots (and I mean lots) of wrestlers that can't swing a sword, though.

Jake

Jake Norwood wrote: Ha, now I'm confused.

The defaults listed under each weapon are your default for other stuff. So, on p. 55, Pole Axe, if you have a Pole Axe Prof. of 7 then your default for C&T is 4, Dagger is 4, Wrestling is 4, and Pole-Arms is 6, etc. Make sense?

All proficiences default some to wrestling because it's assumed that a swordsman/etc. has learned to wrestle as part of the foundation Irmo talked about. I know lots (and I mean lots) of wrestlers that can't swing a sword, though.

Jake

As I recall it is re-worded in the new edition. OTOH even your way works allright--the numbers are usually reciprocal to each other.

Jake

That's cool, been looking forward to the revised book anyway, now I just have another change to check out :-)

Speaking of the CharGen, it's almost done, by the way. Creating, saving, editing characters etc is all completed (and spiffy, I'm especially proud of the Weyrth map that you mouse-over to get info on the countries, and click to select your nationality), I'm just finishing off the printing aspect and I'll change the weapon defaults, and V1 will be done. Should be next week sometime, touch wood.

Brian.

as a wrestler now studying longsword I found certain things transfer well, on my first day of ARMA I was told to go and freeplay against another guy, I had no clue what to do with a sword so I just waited for him to do something then put my sword between his sword and my body and then went to grips as fast as I could. This was highly amusing since I never attacked with my sword and used it more like a long thin shield: block, block block.
As a side note many wrestling techniques work great in a sword fight such as the duck-under, firemans carry, arm drag and most trips and sweeps.

As a note, i did look up the revised version and the quote brian mentioned is in there and alone may be confusing, however if you check the following example in the next paragraph it shows how the defaults work quite clearly and states "defaults listed in the following section follow the weapon they originate from" ie defaults from great sword are listed under great sword.
I figured that may help for those who are using the first print, and good correction in the second go Jake.

Great posts and finally I'm more clear on the proficiencies. Anyway, any ideas on my second question about barding costs?

Thanks, you guys are great!
-Kevin

Kevin, just go ahead and give the guy free barding and a couple companies of cavalry, and let the lance default to 'Mass Weapons & Shields' at -1...

OK, maybe not. Greetings all, I'm the reason Ryuuko is asking a lot of these questions. With his able help I've (almost) completed my first ROS character. Without boring you with details he is a landed noble Knight / Clergyman. Currently, the aspect of the character I'm looking forward to playing the most is actually running the lands. I may have to readjust my spending some (17 gold, 10 silver currently remaining in the coffers... goodbye 'fine' full plate) to have money left for Keep maintenance.

Which brings me to my question / request. If anyone out there can provide me with a rough idea of what a medieval Knight's properties would be composed of it would be a great help. One influencing factor might be that the land has been entrusted to his family for at least two generations (I believe that was done, or am I wrong?). I'm also thinking of establishing some things that the land and people may be well supplied with (arable lands, ores, naturally defensible terrain{one or two things, not all...resist munchkinism}) / talented in (agriculture, mining, metalsmithing, stone masonry, etc) and areas in which there may be deficiencies, possibly severe. And yes, I realize that the particular country which the character lives in will determine some of the above, but I'd like to make it a truly unque holding instead of a microcosm of the home country.

OK, I think that's just about enough of that, except to say that it's been a while since I've been psyched up about a character like I am now. ROS has an excellent character creation system and world setting... I'm looking forward to claiming my half of the Xanarian Empire by whatever means neccessary. Thanks guys.

Brian Leybourne wrote: You're wrong. Go back and read that section again. The proficiencies as listed are FROM, not TO.

Brian.

Brian Leybourne wrote: Oh well, not the first time I've looked stupid and it wont be the last. I still stand by my lance/horseback comments though :-)

Brian Leybourne wrote: That's cool, been looking forward to the revised book anyway, now I just have another change to check out :-) Brian.

Aaron wrote: And fair enough too. But let us agree to disagree on this as I believe timing, footwork and distance would all be way different on horseback than of foot.

I''ve got a couple more questions that came up.

1. Can you willingly make a spell of three or spell of many with only a single vagary so that given the time you can make it more effective?

2. I hate to bring this up again but what is the cost of barding?

3. Is a familiar totally under the control of the Weire at all times? Can they cast spells from the familiar if they are in that mind at the time?

Thank you,
Kevin Beyer

Ryuuko wrote: I''ve got a couple more questions that came up.

1. Can you willingly make a spell of three or spell of many with only a single vagary so that given the time you can make it more effective?

2. I hate to bring this up again but what is the cost of barding?

3. Is a familiar totally under the control of the Weire at all times? Can they cast spells from the familiar if they are in that mind at the time?

Thank you,
Kevin Beyer

Ryuuko wrote: I''ve got a couple more questions that came up.

1. Can you willingly make a spell of three or spell of many with only a single vagary so that given the time you can make it more effective?

2. I hate to bring this up again but what is the cost of barding?

3. Is a familiar totally under the control of the Weire at all times? Can they cast spells from the familiar if they are in that mind at the time?

Thank you,
Kevin Beyer

That's a lot of cows.

Personally, i would add another 45 cows to that total for the cost of barding.

IIRC, barding hadn't been invented at the time of the 9th Century, which is why you can't find a cow equivalent value for it.. I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure about this one.

arxhon wrote:
IIRC, barding hadn't been invented at the time of the 9th Century, which is why you can't find a cow equivalent value for it.. I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure about this one.

toli wrote:

arxhon wrote:
IIRC, barding hadn't been invented at the time of the 9th Century, which is why you can't find a cow equivalent value for it.. I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure about this one.

I think you are right. Barding had been invented much earlier in the east (Scythians, Alans etc) but was not in western europe until the late middle ages (1400's).

That was a very good historical analysis, Sneaky Git. I learned stuff. :-)

Just examining costs here...a full suit of plate, including the helm is about 16g, and a destrier is 40g (imperial standard). Considering that there are evidently several types of barding (cloth, leather, chain, and scales) it's tough to come up with a set price right away.

This falls under the category of Seneschal fiat for now, i guess.

I just thought of something. Was something like "Half barding", meaning covering the front half of the horse, ever used?

arxhon wrote: That was a very good historical analysis, Sneaky Git. I learned stuff. :-)

Just examining costs here...a full suit of plate, including the helm is about 16g, and a destrier is 40g (imperial standard). Considering that there are evidently several types of barding (cloth, leather, chain, and scales) it's tough to come up with a set price right away.

This falls under the category of Seneschal fiat for now, i guess.

I just thought of something. Was something like "Half barding", meaning covering the front half of the horse, ever used?

Damascus wrote:

Which brings me to my question / request. If anyone out there can provide me with a rough idea of what a medieval Knight's properties would be composed of it would be a great help. One influencing factor might be that the land has been entrusted to his family for at least two generations (I believe that was done, or am I wrong?).

Damascus wrote: I'm also thinking of establishing some things that the land and people may be well supplied with (arable lands, ores, naturally defensible terrain{one or two things, not all...resist munchkinism}) / talented in (agriculture, mining, metalsmithing, stone masonry, etc) and areas in which there may be deficiencies, possibly severe. And yes, I realize that the particular country which the character lives in will determine some of the above, but I'd like to make it a truly unque holding instead of a microcosm of the home country.

Damascus wrote: OK, I think that's just about enough of that, except to say that it's been a while since I've been psyched up about a character like I am now. ROS has an excellent character creation system and world setting... I'm looking forward to claiming my half of the Xanarian Empire by whatever means neccessary. Thanks guys.

This may be oversimplifying it, but I would just look up the pertinent costs of the type of armour you want for the barding and then multiply the base price of a human set by ten. So a suit of Chain Barding (fully covered flanks, whithers & neck) would be 5gp for the human set * 10 for a total of 50gp. Want a chanfron? An enclosed chanfron would set you back the price of a human great helm times ten or 15sp*10 = 150sp (about 7gp, 10 sp) So to armour your ride will cost 57gp, 10sp. No wonder this stuff got ransomed back!

As a side note, I think that there should also be a limit on which kind of beast can wear the heavier barding. So a plain ole' horse would be limited to rider. A Courser could wear chain (maille) proofness, a Charger would be able to sport leather barding and only a Destrier could handle the bulk and weight of a suit of full harness. Also the animal would suffer the same penalties from barding as the human wearing similar type of human armour would.

That actually sounds like a great way to handle it, Salamander. Good job!

It doesn't need to be complicated.

As you pointed out, the stuff is expensive which would make for a good adventure of two (the Duke's barding got stolen, and you have to recover it).

Thank you, I am glad to have made a contribution!
=)

Salamander wrote: This may be oversimplifying it, but I would just look up the pertinent costs of the type of armour you want for the barding and then multiply the base price of a human set by ten. So a suit of Chain Barding (fully covered flanks, whithers & neck) would be 5gp for the human set * 10 for a total of 50gp. Want a chanfron? An enclosed chanfron would set you back the price of a human great helm times ten or 15sp*10 = 150sp (about 7gp, 10 sp) So to armour your ride will cost 57gp, 10sp. No wonder this stuff got ransomed back!

As a side note, I think that there should also be a limit on which kind of beast can wear the heavier barding. So a plain ole' horse would be limited to rider. A Courser could wear chain (maille) proofness, a Charger would be able to sport leather barding and only a Destrier could handle the bulk and weight of a suit of full harness. Also the animal would suffer the same penalties from barding as the human wearing similar type of human armour would.

arxhon wrote: I just thought of something. Was something like "Half barding", meaning covering the front half of the horse, ever used?

Brian Leybourne wrote:

arxhon wrote: I just thought of something. Was something like "Half barding", meaning covering the front half of the horse, ever used?

Kind of.. it depends on the kind of barding you're using.

This is all covered really well in Of Beasts and Men,

Brian.

Of Beasts and Men, can't get it soon enough... and yet you taunt us with it.

Sneaky Git wrote: Of Beasts and Men, can't get it soon enough... and yet you taunt us with it.

Sneaky Git wrote: I don't know.. Seems a bit on the expensive side, doesn't it? Salamander, how did you come up with the x10 multiplier? I feel that it generates costs that are prohibitively expensive. Especially considering that the average yearly income for a landed noble is 50 gold (10 of which goes to a Steward...a good investment), and you still haven't taken into account expenses (manorial upkeep, armsmen, livestock, household, etc.).

Sneaky Git wrote:
Now, I certainly agree that horse armor should be expensive...and that calculating costs should not require a degree in higher math. However, I can't help but feel that a bigger area does not necessarily equate to more expensive.. know what I mean?

What do you think?

Chris

Hey Dam. Go out and pick up a copy of Lordly Domains for Pendragon. It'll have pretty much everything you want to know about running land from a single manor up to a kingdom including the duties owned to ones lord and the various privileges and special taxes a land owner can assess.

Thanks, Salamander. That was good info. I'd ask more, but I fear my seneschal may already be plotting against me... if chickens suddenly show up missing I'm gonna break out in a cold sweat. Actually, with what he's already thrown at me in our first session missing chickens might be a blessing.

And to everyone responsible for TROS, a big thank you! I had a ball with the game this weekend and I'm looking forward to picking up my own copy and passing on the good word. OK, I'm actually looking forward to seeing the reaction on the face of players when they hear what kind of damage they're doing / is being done to them. Beats the crap out of "take 10 hp damage" or "mark off 6 boxes for a serious wound".

Will do. Thanks, Valamir.

Salamander wrote: If he had a run on his warhorses and ended up loosing them all in a season or two, what has he got left?

Salamander wrote:
I would throw down the coin to ensure that my rides were as well protected as possible. So you go to an armourer who has the skill to make your barding, it will have about five times the dimensions as that as human armour. That turns into 25 times the surface area. I think that alone covers the multiplier of ten, of course this larger piece is going to be more challenging and is going to take much more time to make than a suit of harness for a man.

=)

I did not know that a set of barding weighed 75 or so pounds. Cool. Thanks toli. One more thing to add to my puddle of knowledge.

As for the craftsmanship involved, yeah I think there is a heck of a lot of work and skill required to make something that big and not pound it out to the toughness of foil with that amount of metal.

The leaders setting up to reimburse the combatants was something I had heard a little about, and I think that statement complements what I said previously.

Salamander wrote: I did not know that a set of barding weighed 75 or so pounds. Cool. Thanks toli. One more thing to add to my puddle of knowledge.

RE Barding

Here is some info I dug up at home:

Year ~ 1450

weight of man 140 lbs
weigh of armor for man AND horse 163 lbs
arms, clothing, saddle 30 lbs

Total carried by horse 333 lbs (1)

Armor for man alone 57 lbs (3)

Leaving 106 lbs for the barding

Year ~ 1480

weigh of man 140 lbs
weigh of armor for man and horse 126 lbs
arms, clothing saddle 30lbs

Total 296 lbs (2)

Armor for man alone ~47 lbs (4)

Leaving 79 lbs for the barding


(1) Paris, Musee de L'Armee
(2) London, Wallace Collection
(3) Glasgow, City Museum
(4) London, Wallace Collection


I also looked in some other games that I have. They list the price of barding at 1.5 - 2.5 x the price of a similar suit of armor for a man. Obviously this has little to no real historical value, but might be useful in a game sense for reference.


NT