In TFOB, i assume there will be some coverage of oriental martial arts, however i have some specific questions about the applications of specific types of martial arts to the game. As a practitioner of Nimpo, the original form of combat and lifestyle of the ninja, Combat Ki, am Americanized martial art focusing on intense physical/mental conditioning allowing the wielder to sustain blows that are fatal to others, and Jeet Kun Do, the martial art developed by Bruce Lee, I would like to see how some of the skills in these martial arts would be applied to the game.

In Nimpo, one of the main focuses when it comes to open combat is agility and out-meneuvering of your opponent. My sensei has been practicing Nimpo for many years now and I have seen him jump over an eight foot hurtle without using his hands, drop a charging sumo wrestler from a standing position, and throw a man three times his weight accross a room effortlessly.

Combat Ki is a unique art which teaches the practitioner to withstand immense blows to vital areas such as the neck, grion, chest, and head that would normally kill someone. With intense mental and physical training, a skilled master can withstand a blow to the jugular by a boxer and sustain no injury.

Jeet Kun Do is a very practical martial art that teaches one to use an opponents momentum against him in order to gain an advantage against him. Bruce Lee developed this from a mix of many other styles of fighting form all over the world.


My question is how would all of these extraordinary abilities be incorporated into the game? TROS is a frighteningly realistic RPG, and it stresses that a character is still a mortal like everyone else, but there are still many forms of combat not covered in TROS where the practitioners make knights look like mice. Blows from the hands of a Nimpo master easily rival that of a war hammer or club. Punches have been recorded as delivering 2500 pounds of force by men of 65 years of age. THe current rules for unarmed combat in ROS do not do justice to oriental styles of martial arts, however suitable they may be to a back-alley brawler or wrestler.

What are some ways that the extraordinary abilities of Ki energy might be incorporated inot the game? I was thinking of a new priority labeled Ki, much like the priority of Force i have seen for Star Wars ROS.

Any suggestions would be welcomed and i can provide additional explanations of any of these martial arts or different styles if necessary.
Also, i would be happy to give input as far as oriental combat goes in TFOB.

Thanks as always,
Mordacc

Firstof all, no offense is intended here, I just have to ask abou the combat ki... HOW do you practice that? "ok sensei, I believe I am ready.... kick me in the jimmy!" somehowI am reminded of Kung Pow when the Chosen one checks to see if he too posesses the "special skill"....
I imagine that mistakes are easy to spot..... seriously, how do you build up to that?

Edit: I think that mechanically speaking you are talking LARGE ASS combat pools for those masters, if you have a combat pool of 30 something in unarmed then TROS handles that well, and you are talking about a 65 year old MASTER. As for taking shotsin the jimmy, I suppose a major gift of "the special skill" would work....

High toughness=harder to hurt
High strength=more damage
High willpower=resist pain

The only thing you'd need to add would be a specialized first aid/medical type skill to represent internal arts to do stuff like reduce shock and bloodloss post fight. Internal arts are often just another part of training, and take a fair amount of time to develop, so that's the reason I suggest making it simply part of the stats. Just like "mean old man" strength, your strength score doesn't have to reflect giant bulging muscles, but could simply be a result of whatever makes you strong.

From the few folks who I've met who practiced ninjistu, they used a lot of Full Evade and Duck and Weave. Jeet Kun Do folks used a lot of counter(stop kicks) and buying initiative.

Chris

Okay, I was skeptic at first, but when you said "...are still many forms of combat not covered in TROS where the practitioners make knights look like mice," you lost all credibility. Frankly, when "Eastern Martial Artists" start bragging about "superhuman" abilities (i.e. surviving wounds that would be fatal to others, etc.), they lose all credibility in my eyes. While I'm sure your 65-year-old master can do impressive things, I have yet to see an example of "super Ki abilities" in the real world. As for eastern martial arts having some sort of special insight into sword fighting or unarmed combat--as I learn more and more about the martial arts of my heritage (i.e. Western Martial Arts), I have come to realize that they are just different cultures solving the same problems. Not that they aren't effective, but when comparing east versus west, the biggest surprise is the number if similarities. Really, the biggest difference is the eastern tendency to incorporate spirituality and philosophy into the Martial Arts.

Sorry if this seems like a flame or personal attack, it's just that I felt that I had to add my 2 cents.

How is this post game related? Well, to my eyes, adding an eastern element is more one of terminology and differences in equipment than combat rules. Miyamoto Musashi's 2-weapon style would be pretty similar to the western two-weapon styles. A single-sword (katana) style is a cut-and-thrust style (the real difference might be in the special maneuver preferences). This still hasn't covered some of the non-Japanese traditional weapons: the "Tai Chi Sword" (can't remember the proper name), although given the width of the blade, it isn't going to be as effective for cutting as an arming sword (cutting damage would probably be somewhat better than a rapier slash). Of course many of the traditional unbladed weapons are modified peasant tools--some much more effective than others. Pole arms are pole arms, so the current rules probably work as given. Such weapons as nunchakus, sai, jitte, etc., would be extremely limited in damage potential against an armored opponent (although the last two would be good off-hand weapons for parrying). Remember, peasants used such weapons because they were not able to obtain or possess swords, not because they thought that their modified farm implements were better than swords (the same goes for them learning unarmed combat instead of sword-fighting styles).

Really, I think that adding Eastern styles is mostly one of terminology with a few items added to the equipment list. Sure a few new maneuvers and styles would need to be added, but nothing that would require a rules overhaul.

--Steve

Ninjas are totally sweet! I once saw a ninja kill an entire town because somebody dropped a spoon! :-)
[/plaigirized joke mode]

Dude, your sensei should be trying for the Guiness Book of Records. Here's the current record holder:

Javier Sotomayor of Cuba, achieved the record height of 2.43 m (7 ft 11.6 in) on March 4, 1989, in Budapest, Hungary.

immense blows to vital areas such as the neck, grion, chest, and head that would normally kill someone

extraordinary abilities of Ki energy might be incorporated inot the game

I'm trying to say that maybe invulnerable asian 'martial arts masters' should be Gifted, rather than just ordinary joe army dude. This would satisfy everybody, I think.

You get your Ki powers instead of Vagaries, where you can do really cool stuff like balance on the end of your enemy's sword for a second (Partial Evasion on a thrust, with a High TN, Ki pool expenditure, instead of Spell pool) and then kick them in the face (you gained initiative for a successful defence, Kick to Area V).

This would be in keeping with the mystical Orient, without being crazy. Ninjas really could disappear in a puff of smoke and walk on water. Kung fu masters really could leap 20 feet to the top of a bamboo shaft and fight perfectly fine, through Ki (or whatever).

This could go somewhere.

That would also explain why all those Ancient Masters were ancient...

Yes, it would, wouldn't it?:-)

I've seen a lot of martial arts, and the only time i've seen someone drop someone as strong and massive as a charging sumo wrester from a standing position was in 2 situations: a). a movie, or b). the sumo wrestler "played along"

Well take in mind in not saying that going in and practicing karate for a couple years makes you able to fly. In talking about a select few masters in the world who have devoted their life to martial arts. And frankly, yes, there are some eastern martial arts that are similar to western styles but pit a judo master against a greek wrestler or some other western fighter and i guarentee you jodu wins out. Im not trying to say that knights are worthless, but there are amny styles of fighting that westerners DONT GET.

As far as ki goes, i think an extra priority named Ki would be the best soution to the problem. Vagaries are nice but ki really isnt all that mystical and can be harnessed (to some degree) by anyone. Really, in order to get some of the very raw basics down all you have to do is go to the library and pick up a book on it.

Also im not trying to insult western styles of fighting, despite what i may sound like. i have great respect for the strength of wrestlers and knights.. i simply was pointing out that, just like the west has amny things the east lacks, so does the east have things the west lacks. THe west generally has more technology and is more equipped for mass combat, as well as a more sensible soldier, unlike the eastern suicide machine. The easts advantages tended to be in hand to hand combat, discipline, and mental/physical/soul (basically the mystical stuff) unification.

ok, I was not trying to offend before, but thats just stupid. That bit about judo vs. Greco roman bit wins the "look Iam absolutely full of it award" now I dont flame much so you know the statement is bad when I get into it so let me just tell a little story about a greco roman wrestler, olympic medal winner and coach at my university who heard someone say basically what you did and so this wrestler decided to show what a load of dung that mental fart actually was and signed up for the ultimate fighting champpionship and not only did he beat the judo guy but every other "martial artist" who joined in and he whooped them good and hard. this is example 1 of many that you really should play the thought game prior to opening your fat yapper.

[/end flame mode]

But should you want to put that flavor into your game please knock yourself out and enjoy, because after all TROS is a FANTASY rpg. [end residual flame mode].

While i dont doubt the skill of your coach, i still have to say that judo would win out. the skill of the challenger may not have been at his level.
also, your coach sounds like quite the combatant, so im sure he known his stuff. im not trying to say that eastern martial arts are better than western styles, im just trying to say that there are many aspects of open hand fighting that the western styles dont practice, such as Ki and other mind/body unification styles. No, i was not trying to sound arrogant and full of it (despite how i may have come accross) and i was not dissing western martial arts.
I will also admit that many people who do take some form of karate or jodu tend to brag alot about their skill and many do get beaten sneseless as a result. THey have simply never been tought that martial arts is about peace, not war.

I think we can settle on the idea that we both strongly disagree with each other then and we should probably leave things at that. You think X I think y, both are mutually exclusive and neither will convince the other. We do agree though that TROS is flexible enough for both x and y however I am sure.

Mordacc wrote: While i dont doubt the skill of your coach, i still have to say that judo would win out. the skill of the challenger may not have been at his level.
also, your coach sounds like quite the combatant, so im sure he known his stuff. im not trying to say that eastern martial arts are better than western styles, im just trying to say that there are many aspects of open hand fighting that the western styles dont practice, such as Ki and other mind/body unification styles. No, i was not trying to sound arrogant and full of it (despite how i may have come accross) and i was not dissing western martial arts.
I will also admit that many people who do take some form of karate or jodu tend to brag alot about their skill and many do get beaten sneseless as a result. THey have simply never been tought that martial arts is about peace, not war.

As for eastern martial arts having some sort of special insight into sword fighting or unarmed combat--as I learn more and more about the martial arts of my heritage (i.e. Western Martial Arts), I have come to realize that they are just different cultures solving the same problems.

Ashren is right, so, for arguments sake, lets assume in my world i am correct. how would we apply these examples of things i have said to the game. (again, assuming i am correct)

Focus Combat Ki (defensive maneuver).

Pay 1 CP and assign X CP to roll against user's current Toughness. Every success equals a +1 TO that lasts until the end of combat.

Focus Combat Ki (offensive maneuver).

Pay 1 CP and assign X CP to roll against user's current Strength. Every success equals a +1 ST that lasts until the end of combat. Focusing does give the initiative to the opponent.

Want to tone these down? Make the duration one round.

No, I haven't playtested these. Just throwing out ideas.

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

Mordacc wrote: No, i was not trying to sound arrogant and full of it (despite how i may have come accross) and i was not dissing western martial arts.

Focus Combat Ki

Since Ki is a real thing in this world, i would simply have an extra priority named Ki and assign points depending on the priority. these points could then be intigrated into combat meneuvers and other things such as reflex and physical activities

Mordacc wrote: Since Ki is a real thing in this world, i would simply have an extra priority named Ki and assign points depending on the priority. these points could then be intigrated into combat meneuvers and other things such as reflex and physical activities

In not exactly sure what you meant by that question but if you meant that all characters already have Ki training which is represented by their SAs then no. It takes alot of practice in order to harness Ki to a level which is effective in combat.

Hey everyone, let's chill on the east vs. west thing, ok? Pretty much unless people hunt down all these masters and get them in a room together and see them do their thing, its just words against words at this point. And really, arguing the superiority of things we're not going to take the effort to test is pretty pointless.

Mordacc had a legitimate question concerning game rules, in a world in which faeries and magic exists, so let's not rip on the idea of what's "real" when we're throwing it into a fantasy world. If folks want to take time to debate real life, I'd say the best thing is for folks to hop on a plane or a greyhound, and see folks do whatever they can do. Otherwise, drop it.

I'll say again what I've said before, fighting techniques are about what weapon you're using, it what area you live in, against whoever you're fighting and what they're using.

For a good portion of Western military history, we're talking mass armies, field combat, arrows raining down on you, and calvary. After that, we're talking rifles and nasty stab-stab with bayonets, and after that, its guns and artillery, then airplanes. Some other countries, where everyone still carries machetes and such, still have machete and knife fighting techniques. Some places, people still hunt, and sometimes fight with spears.

Depending on how common combat is for those people really determines how effective their styles going to be. I hear Italians still have good knife fighters. Spanish are still some of the best horseriders around. The point is, "My master can beat up your master" or "My style is better than your style" is all bullshit. It's about individuals as fighters. I agree that some styles are more effective in combat than others. I believe that good fighters come from all styles, if they use their noggin and realize what's effective and not effective and train hard. My own teacher said, "Boxers are dangerous, because they're one of the few styles that train people to hit properly..."

So let's drop the bragging/that's bullshit stuff and keep it where it belongs. In a real fight.

Chris

Well said Bankuei. [glee] It's such a fun debate though! [/glee]

For TROS rules for the ki powers you describe, I don't think that a ki priority would be the best way to handle it. After all, ki, unlike sorcery in TROS and the Force in Star Wars, is something that everyone has the potential to master. It's a matter of skill or proficiency, perhaps learned gifts, not innate ability.

Actually, I'm not sure that much needs to be changed in the rules. For the ability to withstand tremendous blows, isn't it simplest to just increase the Toughness attribute? What difference does if make if the high Toughness is due to being huge or due to disciplined ki. Both are gained through a combination of talent and training.

The same can be said for strength. In game terms, the ability to hit hard is measured by a combination of strength and proficiency. Martial arts masters would have the ability to hit as hard as a warhammer due to a combination of ki-enhanced strength (ie. a high Strength attribute) and very high proficiency ratings.

Some new martial arts maneuvers would be appropriate though, especially decent kicks, locks, disarming, and aikido-like redirections and throws. Perhaps some gifts to represent some of the more esoteric ki abilities would be appropriate too.

Actually, I've been thinking that most Martial Arts can be fairly easily modeled by the rules for manuvers in TRoS. Fer'instance, I modeled Wing Chun as a martial art the relys almost exclusively on a hand-to-hand version of Bind and Strike. Now, it doesn't sound too impressive, but it is really effective against a standard brawler. I think that there is no need to have an activation cost for hand attacks; a range penalty is punishment enough. After all, the problem with hand to hand strikes isn't hitting them, it's getting them to stay down once you hit them. I don't care what ancient ninja techniques Hung Lo Mak knows, he's gonna die real quick when Joe Blow runs him through. But that is the thing about martial arts. They are very effective under very specific conditions.

By the way, the Ninjutsu hand-to-hand techniques are called NINpo, not Nimpo. At least, that's what Shidoshi Shephen K. Hayes, the first American to learn Togakure-Ryu Ninjutsu says.

I believe either Ninpo or Nimpo are correct terms. Perhaps they are slightly different schools of the same thing im not quite sure. By the way Jon, what armed forces were you in when you got youre "infantry training"?

Mordacc wrote: In TFOB, i assume there will be some coverage of oriental martial arts, however i have some specific questions about the applications of specific types of martial arts to the game.

...

Jeet Kun Do is a very practical martial art that teaches one to use an opponents momentum against him in order to gain an advantage against him. Bruce Lee developed this from a mix of many other styles of fighting form all over

Since Ki is a real thing in this world

Ninpo and Nimpo are just different transliterations of the Japanese. They are written and pronounced exactly the same way in Japanese.

arxhon wrote: Can you point me to independently verified corroboration of this fact?

No matter, i still think that KEWL POWERZ will be nothing but detrimental to the game. Speaking of KEWL POWERZ, has anyone visited http://realultimatepower.net? There is a lot of useful info there too, all about nnjas, and quite factual, apperently.

It would have to be Ninpo because the syllable nim is not possible using standard Japanese (you can do it with katakana somehow though, but katakana is usually reserved for foreign words).

Actually, I've been thinking that most Martial Arts can be fairly easily modeled by the rules for manuvers in TRoS. Fer'instance, I modeled Wing Chun as a martial art the relys almost exclusively on a hand-to-hand version of Bind and Strike.

Actually when i said Ki was a thing in the real world i meant our world earth as in here and now (but i also meant in my campaign world). Just go to the library and look inot any martial arts books or books specifically on Ki and there is your independant proof.

As far as Ki as a priority, i see how that might be tough, and i dont think it is a good idea to have it be like sorcery because it isnt at all. I think that the ideas of maneuvers that temporarily boost your toughness (for Combat Ki for example) are good ideas. There will also have to be alterations to the damage tables a bit since 8 pounds on certain parts of your neck will kill you (basically many martial arts teach you to locate weak points in your enemies and expliot them with little or no force).

Mordacc wrote: Actually when i said Ki was a thing in the real world i meant our world earth as in here and now (but i also meant in my campaign world). Just go to the library and look inot any martial arts books or books specifically on Ki and there is your independant proof.

As far as Ki as a priority, i see how that might be tough, and i dont think it is a good idea to have it be like sorcery because it isnt at all. I think that the ideas of maneuvers that temporarily boost your toughness (for Combat Ki for example) are good ideas. There will also have to be alterations to the damage tables a bit since 8 pounds on certain parts of your neck will kill you (basically many martial arts teach you to locate weak points in your enemies and expliot them with little or no force).

Mordacc wrote: Actually when i said Ki was a thing in the real world i meant our world earth as in here and now (but i also meant in my campaign world).) Just go to the library and look inot any martial arts books or books specifically on Ki and there is your independant proof.

Yes, as for arguing about whether Ki exists in the real world, thats one that wont end for a long time. But, back to the original question, lets just assume that in my world Ki does exist.

Actually when i said Ki was a thing in the real world i meant our world earth as in here and now (but i also meant in my campaign world). Just go to the library and look inot any martial arts books or books specifically on Ki and there is your independant proof.

Ashren Va'Hale wrote:
Edit: I think that mechanically speaking you are talking LARGE ASS combat pools for those masters, if you have a combat pool of 30 something in unarmed then TROS handles that well, and you are talking about a 65 year old MASTER. As for taking shotsin the jimmy, I suppose a major gift of "the special skill" would work....

Mordacc wrote: And frankly, yes, there are some eastern martial arts that are similar to western styles but pit a judo master against a greek wrestler or some other western fighter and i guarentee you jodu wins out.

Jon the Bastard wrote:
By the way, the Ninjutsu hand-to-hand techniques are called NINpo, not Nimpo. At least, that's what Shidoshi Shephen K. Hayes, the first American to learn Togakure-Ryu Ninjutsu says.

tauman wrote:
Hmmm... I can find books proclaiming that the earth is flat, astrology is real, dowsing works, I can go on and on, but none of them are "proof." I have yet to see any objective book that shows proof (or even evidence strong enough to convince me to suspend judgement) that Ki is "real." Granted, I think it can help a student's visualization and understanding when explaing some of the abstract concepts of martial arts, but whenever a "master" tries to show some sort of mystic power or such using Ki, it's always some sort of parlour illusion (sometimes including self-delusion on the part of the "master").

Thalaxis wrote:
My first thought was a few new schools (hand/foot manouvers would not be the same as comparable weapon manouvers; you'd not just stick your arm out to block an incoming sword, for example, and you would hit using your hand differently from with a sword)

GreatWolf wrote:
What it *does* mean, though, is that no new maneuvers really need to be invented. The disadvantage of fighting an armed man is already factored into weapon length penalties and the limb damage used when blocking a weapon with your arm. So I'd just suggest constructing proficiencies for different schools using the maneuvers already in place. I don't think that there needs to be as much variation as you are suggesting.

(1) To be clear, this is *not* supposed to be against the blade itself, although some techniques are designed to minimize damage from a blade (blocking with the bony ridge of the forearm, for instance) in case you do get hit. As my sensei noted, if you're in a fight with someone with a blade, it's not a matter of if you will get cut; it's a matter of when.

I would express strong ki as a combination of a high combat pool and a large amount of SAs. Its a combination of skill and mental state.

The point I want to add to this discussion is that in my view, the Savaxon berzerker, the faith-powered paladin, a Fahal zealot, and the eastern warrior are all expressed in mechanically equivalent ways (IMHO, of course). Roleplaying them would be totally different, but functionally, if one wants a combat oriented character capable of absolutely awe-inspiring feats, the rules are in place already.

hmm.
i've been lurking so long, I forgot how to write a good post. sorry.

Thalaxis wrote: The main reason that I thought a few additional manouvers might be good is that in my training of Goju (karate) and Kobudo (weapons), we find that while they largely share techniques (when you compensate for having a weapon in your hand, changing your grip doesn't change how you actually punch, for example), some things like grabs and arm bars are just a LOT harder with weapons than with bare hands... though that might be properly accounted for via a "weapon" instead of a new manouver, even so.

Thalaxis wrote:

tauman wrote:
Hmmm... I can find books proclaiming that the earth is flat, astrology is real, dowsing works, I can go on and on, but none of them are "proof." I have yet to see any objective book that shows proof (or even evidence strong enough to convince me to suspend judgement) that Ki is "real." Granted, I think it can help a student's visualization and understanding when explaing some of the abstract concepts of martial arts, but whenever a "master" tries to show some sort of mystic power or such using Ki, it's always some sort of parlour illusion (sometimes including self-delusion on the part of the "master").

Actually, it IS real... but the idea that Ki is some sort of mystical power is the error. What it really amounts to is focus, balance, relaxation... a combination of physical elements, and is really a term rooted in Zen and Buddhist philosophy more than anything else.

Miyamoto Musashi's concept of the Void is the same thing; the Void is a way of meditating and focusing one's mind on the task at hand... again very real, but also nothing mystical or even mysterious.

The reason that this tends to comes across as a "secret" to the untrained is that the teachers of old didn't want outsiders to understand what they were doing. If you take a close look at how Aikido works, they talk a lot about Ki (it is after all the "way of Aiki"), but the techniques are based on the physics of human bodies -- which is why they work. Part of it has psychological, though; some of them work through deceiving the opponent.

Either way, Ki IS real... but it's a skill that anyone willing to take the time and put in the effort can learn.

(And no, I don't for a minute believe the tripe about a person taking a full-on blow to the throat and not even flinching... the skill of Ki allows you to use your body, not alter it.)

tauman wrote:
Well put! I absolutely agree with what you say, so I think I'll have to backtrack on my statement somewhat. Given your use of the term 'Ki', I can't argue with you at all. However, in the context of my post, I was really talking about the extreme stuff (blows to the throat, "sustain blows that are fatal to others", etc), that I just don't buy. I guess I should have qualified my statements somewhat.

Thalaxis, believe it or not there are many people trained in Combat Ki who can take full on blows to the neck (by multiple people at the same time in fact). I have taken it for many years and if you dont believe me, which there is no reason why you should, read about it. I have seen it with my own eyes many times.

Mordacc wrote: Thalaxis, believe it or not there are many people trained in Combat Ki who can take full on blows to the neck (by multiple people at the same time in fact). I have taken it for many years and if you dont believe me, which there is no reason why you should, read about it. I have seen it with my own eyes many times.

I once saw a magician in vegas cut a woman in half and then put her back together again an thats not physiologically possible either so whats your point? If the guy in vegas can cut a woman in half (and I saw it with my own eyes and there are books about it) then it must have happened that way and by the same logic mordacc's assertionson KI must be true.
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I trust my point has been made.... signing off now.

To move back from the brink of flamewars, the point goes back to someone asking about how 'cinematic' they want TROS to feel. Whether one believes ki allows certain things to occur or not, I think we can all agree that a guy taking 4 hits to the neck at the same time & being perfectly fine is a little off the beaten track, shall we say.

What does this mean in game play? Well, it means that the Seneschal allowed one character to have a 9 or a 10 Toughness starting off.

I think that the utility of this thread lies in the fact that TROS is a roleplaying game where a player really should be allowed on occasion to make characters deeply based around combat without doing so be seen as being a 'munchkin' or a 'twink.' Therefore, a discussion on the mechanics can handle some of the more outlandish anecdotes of combat is useful.

My personal opinion is that most of these these things can be represented through SAs, combat pool, & attributes... with roleplaying backing up the reasoning on why the character can do what (s)he can.

Obviously, this is a variable that people should be clear on BEFORE gameplay starts. Its bad to show up to a wuxia fight with just a dagger, afterall.

EDIT: added last 2 paragraphs

I remember a few years back, the Discovery channel had these Shaolin kung fu guys that were doing stunts on the street. You know, they were bending swords on their stomachs, getting punched in the chest, and having guys break bamboo rods across their throats. Honestly, none of these feats were all that impressive in real life. But what was really impressive was the training these guys underwent. Constant, day in, day out full body exercises. The monks were walking up the side of a mountain, on their hands. They had one monk hold the other's feet. wheelbarrow-style, and then they ran up the mountain. It looked like it was at least a mile up and back. That is just hard -freakin'- core. My point is, you don't need mystic powers when you are that bad ass. And these guys train since they can walk.
So the question is: can this be duplicated in TRoS? I think so. The real pain in the ass job is going to be modeling the martial art. There needs to be new techniques for leaping attacks, at least for some forms, and each form is more accurately described as seperate styles, each with a collections of techniques. You've got your Iron shirt style, your Chin-na grappling, your Crane, Tiger, and other assorted animal styles. Then you've got to build your monk. Definately have physicals as their primary, and Proficiencies next, or vice versa. The real kicker are their SAs. If we give the monk a Faith: Ki, that is, a total belief in the Monk's own martial capacity as an outgrowth of his inner tranquility, you've got a combatant who could potentially be fighting with a Combat Pool in the 15 - 20 range, as a beginning character, and whose Faith pool constantly regenerates just as long as he keeps his head during combat. Against even a well talented opponent, the monk will just decimate him. He could even go up against two or three poor opponents, it he plays his cards right. Now, I don't know how you could call that anything less than astounding.
However, he does have his human limits. He bleeds, just like any man, and even the greatest Iron Shirt master will be killed by a crossbow bolt in the back. Remember, during the Boxer's Rebellion in China, the Sacred Order of the Harmonious Fist (coolest cult name. ever) were cut down by the Chinese Gov't rifles. It was seen as something on a joke, these Shaolin Monks just charging the rifles, nothing but their faith protecting them. Faith can move mountains, but a .30 - .06 round can move flesh, bone, and earth, and far more reliably.
So if we really want a martial artist, we should concentrate on building the styles, and let the very robust and flexible system of TRoS do the rest.

I actually got a chance to see the Shaolin live, in a high school auditorium about 8 years ago, before they started doing "stadium" tours, I saw them do a bunch of stuff, the most impressive being one guy taking hits from a massive log and not giving an inch.

Just the same, I've said it before, and will say it again: There's not much point in the "I believe" group and the "I don't believe" group arguing the reality of human potential on this thread. I know what I saw, but unless I actually go out and get someone who can do it, and the people who don't believe, together in a room for a live demonstration, it all amounts to words.

So I'm going to say it again: Let's drop all talk of what can be done in real life.

Let's stick to the simple point of how can we make this kind of stuff work in game.

So the question is: can this be duplicated in TRoS? I think so. The real pain in the ass job is going to be modeling the martial art. There needs to be new techniques for leaping attacks, at least for some forms, and each form is more accurately described as seperate styles, each with a collections of techniques. You've got your Iron shirt style, your Chin-na grappling, your Crane, Tiger, and other assorted animal styles.

You don't need to make a technique for each of these styles. Chin-na is grappling, as listed in the book, it just happens that someone who trains 14 hours a day for years on end has a crazy Combat Pool. Tiger is offensive strikes + grappling(I know personally). Crane is counters, +accuracy gift to get those fun spots like throat and eyes. Iron shirt is high toughness or else the Ki rules as I described.

Thalaxis wrote:
Actually, it IS real... but the idea that Ki is some sort of mystical power is the error. What it really amounts to is focus, balance, relaxation... a combination of physical elements, and is really a term rooted in Zen and Buddhist philosophy more than anything else.

And Seven: If the other guy has a weapon and any kind of training, Duck and Weave is a stupid move. Chiang ended up with an Axe buried in his head during the final fight.

Jon the Bastard wrote: Four: Fists are not killing weapons. At best, you must aim for the vital points on the body. Major accuracy is a must. A rank 3 kick to the Knee (good luck) Can cripple an an opponent with pain, but a little higher or lower and the payoffs are quite a bit less.

GreatWolf wrote:
Good point. One of the focuses of aikijutsu (as well as aikido and several other styles, IIRC) is the striking of specific nerve points to "distract" your opponent. (At least that's what my sensei called it.) This seems like textbook Shock to me. So, can this be modeled?

GreatWolf wrote: The easiest method, I would think, would be to allow an adjustment to the d6 roll that determines area. Perhaps burning successes from a hit to apply a modifier after the fact?

Maybe a manuver for some relatively high proficency in a Martial Arts style could emulate the Accuracy gift?

Or allow you to discard dice instead of successes to adjust the 'placement' roll?

Or maybe a new damage chart (based on thrusting for the area hit, and with higher shock and lower pain/blood loss than bludgeoning) for some styles of hand to hand stuff?

I like the idea of a technique for more accurate hand to hand attacks. After all, it is much easier to aim with you limbs than with your weapons.

I also like the idea of a nerve strike. Just off the top of my head, how about this :
Nerve Strike
ATN: 8 (nerve strikes are amazingly hard to connect with)
DTN: 8 (I'm not sure why you'd defend with a nerve stike...)
Damage: Str-2b
Note: Does +x Shock, where (x = damage)
By striking the nerve clusters in the body, the martial artist can stun his opponent with decebtive ease.

Well Jon, it seems that most of your experience in the game test reflects a lot of real life. In real life, my teacher says, "Knives are not punches, you can't KEEP taking these...". We also don't use lots of kicks for one very good reason: If someone has something sharp, all you are doing is giving them a target, one that you might need to still be functioning to run away...

On note of shock, my personal manuever modification works like this:

Shock attacks:
On a successful hit against an unarmored area, you can inflict extra Shock by spending extra CP. Each extra CP=1 extra shock. You can spend up to your proficiency.

Since hands have a low ATN, it makes it effective enough to use, especially by folks with CP advantage. On the other hand, it makes assholes with chainmail a problem, but if you're going empty hands against chainmail, you need to start grappling or run.

Chris

I'm happy to see this thread move into something more intelligent. The last thing i want to see is kewl powerz whether or not they are based on some kind of "real life".

Or you could just take the Accuracy gift.

After all, it is much easier to aim with you limbs than with your weapons.

Shock attacks:
On a successful hit against an unarmored area, you can inflict extra Shock by spending extra CP. Each extra CP=1 extra shock. You can spend up to your proficiency.

Knives are not punches....(snip) We also don't use lots of kicks for one very good reason: If someone has something sharp, all you are doing is giving them a target

I concur. That puts the martial arts squarely into the manuvers realm. Now, lets see if we can't start writing up some different martial arts. Don't forget the training , or how the martial artis should prioritize their stats.

Potentially usable maneuvers that are already in the game:

hook (footsweeps)
grapple
punch
kick
parry (if you are unarmed, may not be used at any range longer than hand....it's hard to parry a sword blade with your arm)
stop short
toss
thrust
double strike

and of course full/partial evasion and duck and weave

would the following work/fit?
simo block/strike
counter....from what i know, softer martial arts that redirect attacks against the aggressor may be good at this.
feints
bind and strike

that's actually most of the maneuvers in the game already.

By mixing and matching these you could come up with several styles right away. For example, karate, would lack grappling, judo would lack kicks and punches, and various styles of kung fu would have some of the maneuvers and lack others. There is already a lot of potential available.

I suggest working within the framework already established unless new maneuvers are absolutely necessary. New maneuvers should be comparable in power to current ones, should we decide they are even necessary. A punch is a punch is a punch, whether it is really called a "Dragon Claw Strike" or "Singing Willow Bows in the Wind", when you boil it down.

Despite my hacking on Mordacc (sorry dude), I am not averse to flashy eastern martial arts like you see in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Iron Monkey, or Jackie Chan/Bruce Lee flicks. A good example is from the Kill Bill trailer, where Uma Thurman thrusts at a martial artist, who in turn leaps up, stands briefly on the end of Uma's sword and then kicks her in the face. Mind you, this can already be done with current maneuvers as it is, say, a Duck and Weave, followed by a Kick to the head (area IV), with cool narration by the player/Seneschal. Nothing really spectacular in terms of SA's, Vagaries, Ki, etc. is happening, just a couple of standard maneuvers with some imagination.

On the other hand, ninjas just flying around in the sky at will, reflecting swords off their heads with nary a scratch and throwing fireballs like Ryu from SFII is a bit much, IMO. This is what I don't want to see, as it would cheapen the game considerably.

I'm the first to admit that I like my games gritty and "realistic" (I use this term loosely, but you all know what I mean). Although a fan of HK Theater (how many of you remember fondly Kung Fu Theater Saturday afternoons?), to quote arxhon,

arxhon wrote: The last thing i want to see is kewl powerz whether or not they are based on some kind of "real life".

arxhon wrote: Potentially usable maneuvers that are already in the game:

hook (footsweeps)
grapple
punch
kick
parry (if you are unarmed, may not be used at any range longer than hand....it's hard to parry a sword blade with your arm)
stop short
toss
thrust
double strike

and of course full/partial evasion and duck and weave

would the following work/fit?
simo block/strike
counter....from what i know, softer martial arts that redirect attacks against the aggressor may be good at this.
feints
bind and strike

that's actually most of the maneuvers in the game already."

Taking a note from the "Social Combat" thread, is anyone thinking of writing up specific style rules for various Martial Arts using current rules?

And I'm not just talking about Turkey Trot Shaolin Gong Fu, I'm talking about French Savate and the difference in focus between Spanish and Italian fencing styles. I don't practice any Martial Art, but I've read that there are differences. Are they large enough to get this specific?

Though perhaps it might pay to wait till we can read TFoB...

Gene Ha

PS I think all this "spiritual" Asian martial artist stuff is crap. Asian warriors were just as selfish, cruel, materialistic, and bawdy as their western counterparts. SAMURAIS WEREN'T MONKS! They slept around, with each other, with whores, mistresses, and little boys. They drank too much, robbed the poor, fought, and pissed off the religious types.

Ditto Korean, Chinese, Thai, English, etc. warriors. (I'm proudly Korean, thank you).

(Actually, the same is true of European and Asian monks).

There were deeply spiritual warriors, who thought their spiritual development was inseparable from their martial development. In Europe and Asia. But this was the exception. But now we talk about "chivalry" and "Asian mysticism" as if they were the norm.

People often see foreign traditions as more pure. Americans study Buddhism because it's more intellectual. Some Chinese study Catholicism or Mormonism because it's more intellectual than the street Buddhism with which they grew up.

I wonder if it would be appropriate to add some sort of Proficiency (or something) like a "Martial Style and Counterstyle" idea.
In an eastern game require folks to take a style of combat or two...

making this up
Martial Art- Dragon-style (counters Snake?-style) giving a small bonus to the Character when fighting opponents using that style.

Well, I'm probably going to kitbash an unarmed combat style together with my wife for her character, using the current maneuvers. If/when I do that, I'll post the results here.

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

another idea, I was watching some UFC th othr day and I saw some muay thai guy beat the tar out of a boxer and what it seemed to me was that the muay thai fighterkicked easier than the boxer but didn't puch as well, now brawling and grappling are proficiencies that theoretically allow you to toss teh same amount o dice for any attack within the proficiency but different schools focus on different aspects ofthe fight. SO, in game terms you could lower or raise atn's and dtn's for punches and kicks as befits the style in question. This would allow you to simulate the ease of the boxers punch and the crappiness of his kicks while doing the reverse for the muay thia and I apologize for butchering teh spelling...

maybe the muay thai guy had a higher proficiency or attributes or maybe his grandmother's dying wish was for him to win the UFC tournament and when he was born a twin tailed comet flew over head and it was prophesied that he who was born under the twin tailed comet would become the greatest fighter in the world, so this muay thai guy might have a lot of SA's going for him.

My bet is he trained harder and longer and better than the boxer, but you can go and lower his ATN if you wish, go ahead, ruin the game ... ( :) just kidding, lower the ATN if you want to it should be fine for your world)

You could say that maybe the muay thai school had a better teaching program than the school the boxer went to? But since in TROS you get better at fighting through SAs and not practice it won't mater. (unless your Drive is: practice all the time, then practice might build your SAs)

Scott

what I specifically meant was that if you want to model a kick based martial art where in fighters train to kick and use kicking attacks then teh activation costs for kicks or kick ATN/dtn would be lower than a punched based style and perhaps you could alter the activation costs for various maneuvers depending on how they fight withthe particularstyle.
This is my suggestion for those who want to differentiate some of the different schools as was mentioned earlier in the thread. Hope that helps to clarify.

I'd love to see something like the GURPS Maneuver system in TRoS.

Some styles prefer kicks, some prefer punches. Some sword styles use the same weapons, but advocate stabs over swings. Some way of buying down a TN would be really interesting to me.

Of course, that could get really cinematic really quick ("My Paladin Dragonblood Oakenhedd has a TN of 4 for Duck and Weave! He rules!").

Gene Ha

Ok,
I see no problem with mucking with activation costs. There's already precedent (check grappling under the wrestling proficiency and compare it to the other proficiencies AC for grappling).

On the other hand, buying down TN's is a dangerously slippery slope, as MrGeneHa already demonstrated (thanks, BTW).

Being better at something is reflected in having a higher proficiency, not lowering the TN. A punch is already at ATN 5 (pretty low, actually).....whether you have a level 1 prof. or a 12 prof. The level 12 means you are better with it, meaning you are more likely to hit, and more likely to cause damage. This is why there are proficiency levels in the first place.

Modeling the kick based martial art would be as simple as giving them the following maneuvers:

Kick
Hook
Stop Short
Feint
the usual evasions and duck&weave

and possibly
Toss

I'm still seeing the idea of making an unarmed fighter better than one carrying a sword floating around here. Why is this? Is it just me?

arxhon wrote:
I'm still seeing the idea of making an unarmed fighter better than one carrying a sword floating around here. Why is this? Is it just me?

Jake Norwood wrote:
Yesterday I was sparring a guy. He had a greatsword, I was unarmed (well, I threw my gloves at him, but it didn't get me too far).

arxhon wrote:

I'm still seeing the idea of making an unarmed fighter better than one carrying a sword floating around here. Why is this? Is it just me?

Jake Norwood wrote:
If I was fighting me, I'd have gotten creamed. The skill of the fighter is 80% of the equasion. "School" is 20% at best. In TROS terms my CP was a lot higher than his--enough that I could afford to get past his range and his CP, but only enough that it required luck. If I were to take on another guy of my level (same CP, so to speak), then I'd have been toasted 4 times out of 5.

A good example is from the Kill Bill trailer, where Uma Thurman thrusts at a martial artist, who in turn leaps up, stands briefly on the end of Uma's sword and then kicks her in the face. Mind you, this can already be done with current maneuvers as it is, say, a Duck and Weave, followed by a Kick to the head (area IV), with cool narration by the player/Seneschal. Nothing really spectacular in terms of SA's, Vagaries, Ki, etc. is happening, just a couple of standard maneuvers with some imagination.

Weapons were invented because they're better than bare hands.
"If you fight a guy with a knife, expect to get cut" is the popular saying. "Ha," I say, "not if my knife is a lot longer!"

A good example is from the Kill Bill trailer, where Uma Thurman thrusts at a martial artist, who in turn leaps up, stands briefly on the end of Uma's sword and then kicks her in the face. Mind you, this can already be done with current maneuvers as it is, say, a Duck and Weave, followed by a Kick to the head (area IV), with cool narration by the player/Seneschal. Nothing really spectacular in terms of SA's, Vagaries, Ki, etc. is happening, just a couple of standard maneuvers with some imagination.

I suppose what I'd like to see out of "martial arts" is somewhat illustrated by Jake's story of sparring that greatsworder.. How do you disarm someone in TRoS? The only thing I've seen is the counter, which is essentially random, and perhaps a defensive grapple to trap, but that doesn't mention any way to take your opponent's weapon away. It makes sense that if you're fighting unarmed against an armed opponent, the best way to level the playing field, or turn it to your advantage is to take the opponent's weapon, and either use it yourself, or simply deny him the use of it.
A few, very few, different options not currently offered or illustrated by the current maneuvers would be enough for me.

Brian Leybourne wrote: Side point:

I have always found Duck & Weave to be just a tiny bit too hard to pull off. At TN9 even ten dice will only give you (on average) 2 successes, which just isn't enough to avoid most attacks.

I've been floating the idea of a TN8 for Duck & Weave for a while now, using it in my own game etc. I also put it as an optional rule in the combat sim. Has anyone used that in the combat sim, or experimented with it in actual tros play? Any thoughts? Too unbalanced? etc.

Brian

Re: TN 8 Duck & Weave

Works for me. I'll try it, too.

I suppose what I'd like to see out of "martial arts" is somewhat illustrated by Jake's story of sparring that greatsworder.. How do you disarm someone in TRoS? The only thing I've seen is the counter, which is essentially random, and perhaps a defensive grapple to trap, but that doesn't mention any way to take your opponent's weapon away. It makes sense that if you're fighting unarmed against an armed opponent, the best way to level the playing field, or turn it to your advantage is to take the opponent's weapon, and either use it yourself, or simply deny him the use of it.