I'm about 85% done with the actual rules of The Shadow of Yesterday, and am quite happy. However, I'm not very happy with my sub-system for magic, and wanted to bounce a few ideas around to see if anyone has any thoughts on it.

All that stuff set in stone

So far, there's a few set in stone mechanics that make up the core of the magic (and other) system. There's six attributes:

Vigor - strength and vim
Force - willpower, basically
Grace - litheness, quickness, adroitness
Wits - mental quickness and intelligence
Grit - ability to soak up damage, physical toughness
Charm - self-explanatory

The magic system is based off of six skills, each one associated with an attribute:

Destruction (Vigor)
Creation (Force)
Apportation (Grace)
Divination (Wits)
Transformation (Grit)
Enchantment (Charm)

In case you aren't up on the system, each attribute has 1-10 points in it, and so does each skill. Success is achieved by rolling 2d6 + skill and getting a 9 or above. (This is Success Level [SL] 1. Higher SLs can be achieved with a higher roll - see my design log thread in this forum for more details.) Attributes are pools of points that can be spent for special effects or "bonus dice" on the skill roll, which equates to adding another die and dropping the lowest. Characters also have Secrets - special abilities activated by spending a number of attribute points.

What I have so far

So far, each magical skill has a default effect that it can do. Each of these is relatively well-defined - the Shadow of Yesterday provides concrete, not interpreted, results. Without any Secrets to increase abilities, the following rules apply to magic:

- Effects are either instantaneous or last an hour. Nothing is permanent that is done with magic.
- One target can be affected, which either must be the caster or someone in contact with the caster.

Here's the basic effects.

Creation: The caster can create one cubic foot of one of the basic elements (fire, air, earth, water) from nothing.

Destruction: The caster can hurt a target with damage equal to his Success Level.

Apportation (which just means movement): The caster can telekinetically move an object that could fit in this hand (note by the rules, this object must start touching him) slowly within his vision.

Divination: The caster can sense magic auras on an object or person he touches.

Enchantment: The caster can force his will on a target, which is well aware what is happening.

Transformation: The caster can transfer points from one attribute to another equal to his Success Level.

Da problems

Looking at those, they're weak powers, which is fine. I want magicians to have the capability to be immensely powerful, but with the limitation that nothing they do is permanent. Some of the above powers do not relate to the Success Level, which is also fine - all magical effects done to a person can be resisted, so Success Level will still matter.

Where I'm torn is whether to create Secrets that expand each of these powers or create Secrets that are basically pre-packaged spells. Pre-packaged spells sound boring, but it seems to be the only way to achieve some desired effects.

I'll actually start by showing some expansion Secrets - all of which can work together - to show how that might work.

Secret of the Invisible Hand: Normally, you must touch a target to affect it with magic. With this Secret, you can affect any target you can see. Cost: nothing.

Secret of Magical Contagion: Normally, your magic affects one target. You can spread your magic over a group of targets by spending points from the relevant attribute. (You'll see this a lot - it's the attribute associated with the skill being used.) The number of targets that can be affected is equal to the number of points spent squared; i.e., 4 targets for 2 points, 9 targets for 3 points, 16 targets for 4 points, 25 targets for 5 points, etc. Cost: variable

Secret of Magical Persistence: Normally, your magic can last for a maximum of one hour. With this Secret, you can extend the duration by spending from the relevant attribute. For 1 point, you can extend until sundown (or sunrise if used at night.) For 3 points, you can extend until the end of one moon phase (end of the week). For 6 points, you can extend until the next eclipse (end of the month). For 10 points, you can extend until one complete sun cycle (either solstice).

These Secrets will stay in the system whether or not I go with a modular approach or a spell-based approach - they can be used on spells or with other effects just as easily.

If I were to go with a modular approach, more Secrets for Creation might look like this:

Creation: Mass Creation: You can create an amount of material up to the number of points spent from Force cubed in cubic feet. You must also have a Success Level equal to this number of points. A 3' x 3' x 3' cube of earth would cost 3 points, and Success Level 3 would be needed. (The material does not come in a perfect cube, obviously, but a lump.)

Creation: Create Other: You can create any pure material. Instead of just earth, air, fire, or water, you can create a mass of iron, coal, helium, gold, wood, cotton, or whatever you want. Only one material can be created in a mass, though. Cost: 2 Force.

(Note: this one's a Transformation Secret, but bear with me.)

Transformation: Craft: You can use your Craft or Artistic skills in concert with any other magical ability. You must still roll Transformation, which adds bonus dice to the crafting Skill Check. Cost: 1 Grit.

So, to create a sword, you'd create 1 cubic foot (automatic) of steel (2 Force and Creation: Create Other), need a SL 1 on your Creation roll, then make a Transformation roll, which must be successful (1 Grit and Transformation: Craft) and then a successful Rough Crafts skill roll.

Total costs and prerequisites: 2 Force, 1 Grit, and Creation: Create Other and Transformation: Craft, plus three successful Skill Checks. To make it last longer than an hour, you'd need the Secret of Magical Persistence.

That seems pretty expensive and complex, yet doesn't even crack the surface of the complexity of making a spell system which encompasses everything. I've actually created three spells for each skill in order to test this out. The same basic spell from above is this:

Creation Spell: Craft: Your character can create an object made of one substance out of thin air. An example would be a sword made of solid metal, a shirt made only of undyed cloth, or a chair of solid wood. This object cannot be bigger than the caster. Cost: 3 Vigor.

This is a lot simpler - I stuff it all into Creation and limit the size. But what happens when someone wants to create a huge wall, or even a stone house? I need another spell. The amount of spells needed is infinite, as shown by the d20 craze, with thousands of spells created at this point.

So far, I really want to create a good modular system. I fear that certain things might get left out, though - what if I want to use Creation to create life, for example? How would I do that? For now, I don't know, which is why I'm looking to you guys for ideas.

Clinton R. Nixon wrote: This is a lot simpler - I stuff it all into Creation and limit the size. But what happens when someone wants to create a huge wall, or even a stone house? I need another spell. The amount of spells needed is infinite, as shown by the d20 craze, with thousands of spells created at this point.

Jared,

That's a cool idea. Now I'll pick it apart.

If magic was based solely around the effect it created, a lot of things would be easy to adjucate. If I wanted to create a stone house to block a meteor shower from another wizard, for example, I roll my Creation, he rolls his Destruction (probably - he's intending to hurt me) and the winner wins. If I want to create a stone house to impress some yokels, I suppose they could just roll Resist (the catch-all resist magic skill) and if I succeed against that, then they're impressed. Let's say I want to create it to protect me from a rainstorm. Perhaps, since there's no resistance besides the rain, a simple Mediocre Success (SL 1) would do it.

Now, let's say I want to create a flying chariot to take me across the world. How do I do that? Or, let's say I want to use Transformation to turn myself into a rat, with my intention to be small and furry. How do I measure that in a system, and how does it measure against turning into a 60-foot tall tiger, for example, in order to be big and damaging?

What happens is I get a very loose system, with little concrete answers, instead relying on GM (or player) fiat, which I'll call dynamic rules. ("That seems like it might take an Amazing Success [SL 4].") I guess I have to decide - are dynamic rules ok for this game? In the past, I've tried to be super-innovative, using a lot of dynamic rulesets, which hasn't worked. Paladin is left unplayed, Donjon gets a lot of talk, and a lot of one-shots, and few repeat players, with even me finding it boring, stale, and broken.

And then I pick up a game like D&D, or Buffy, or Ars Magica (obviously, some of the inspiration for magic so far in this), and see concrete answers to questions, and want to play these games - games much more well designed than anything I've done in the past.

It comes down to dynamic rules being able to cope with anything, but having little concrete value; and a structured system having concrete results, but little flexibility. Deciding between the two is difficult, especially with the "bah on innovation" stance I've chosen to take, at least for this game.

(Edit: I re-worded this to be much clearer, adding the term "dynamic rules.")

I decided to give Jared's idea a try:

Intention-based Magic

Shit, I have to start defining terminology. For this discussion, there's two terms:
Concrete: physical-based limitations in a game system
Dynamic: rules or limitations in a game system that rely on interpretation from a player or GM

Ok, so I still have the same six basic magical skills, although they're a bit re-worded:

Creation (Force): The caster can create a small amount of one of the basic elements (fire, air, earth, water) from nothing.

Destruction (Vigor): The caster can hurt a target with damage equal to his Success Level.

Apportation (Grace): The caster can telekinetically move a small object (note by the rules, this object must start touching him) slowly within his vision.

Divination (Wits): The caster can sense magic auras on an object or person he touches.

Enchantment (Charm): The caster can force his will on a target, who is well aware what is happening.

Transformation (Grit): The caster can transfer points from one attribute to another equal to his Success Level.

If I go with the intention of magic determining how it's adjucated, I still keep a few Secrets that increase concrete limits. I'm repeating them for my own sake, and because the Secret of Magical Contagion is re-worded.

Secret of the Invisible Hand: Normally, you must touch a target to affect it with magic. With this Secret, you can affect any target you can see. Cost: nothing.

Secret of Magical Contagion: Normally, your magic affects one target. You can spread your magic over a group of targets by spending points from the relevant attribute. (You'll see this a lot - it's the attribute associated with the skill being used.)
A small group of targets (around 5) can be affected for 1 point.
A larger group of targets (25 or less) can be affected for 3 points.
A crowd of targets (100 or less) can be affected for 6 points.
A horde of targets (all that the caster can see) can be affected for 10 points.

Secret of Magical Persistence: Normally, your magic can last for a maximum of one hour. With this Secret, you can extend the duration by spending from the relevant attribute. For 1 point, you can extend until sundown (or sunrise if used at night.) For 3 points, you can extend until the end of one moon phase (end of the week). For 6 points, you can extend until the next eclipse (end of the month). For 10 points, you can extend until one complete sun cycle (either solstice).

Ok, then I still have Secrets for each skill, but make them dynamic and intention based. Here's some examples:

Creation: Create Mass: You can create a mass of stuff. This is roughly equal to your body mass times the amount of Force spent and can be in any non-complex shape. Cost: 1 Force.

Creation: Create Other: You can create another pure material that you want. Cost: 1 Force.

Destruction: Inner Damage: You can damage living targets' attributes, removing points, instead of doing physical damage. Cost: 1 Vigor.

Destruction: Massive Damage: The damage done with Destruction is equal to your SL's multiplied by the amount of Vigor spent. Cost: 2+ Vigor.

Apportation: Speed: You can move objects at your running speed times the amount of Grace spent. Cost: 2+ Grace.

Apportation: Mass: You can move a mass of stuff roughly equal to your body mass times your Success Levels. Cost: 1 Grace.

Divination: Know Capabilities: You can learn game statistics about a target, such as a particular attribute score, best skill and score, or specific skill and score. You can learn a number of bits of information equal to your Success Levels. Cost: 1 Wits.

Divination: Know Truth: You can know the answer to any question asked of you. You learn a number of bits of information equal to the amount of Wits spent, and the GM will determine the clarity of these answers by your Success levels. Cost: 1+ Wits.

Enchantment: Gentle Touch: You can use Enchantment without making your target aware that he is being manipulated. Cost: 1 Charm.

Enchantment: Alter Senses: You can alter a target's senses, costing 1 Charm per sense. Cost: 1+ Charm.

Transformation: Craft: You can use any of your Craft skills magically, making their action instantaneous and permanent. Cost: 1 Grit.

Transformation: Living Morph: You can change the target's form into that of another living creature, moving around their Attribute points as you want at the same time. To alter the size of the creature, you need to spend a number of Grit points equal to the multiplication or division of their size. (Example: turning a 150-pound man into a 50-pound dog would take 3 Grit, as his size is divided by three; turning a 10-pound cat into a 80-pound mountain lion would cost 8 Grit, as his weight is multiplied by eight.) Cost: 1+ Grit.

You know, that provides for a crackload of magic (besides healing, which bothers me, but I can deal.) You might not see the intention-based side of this, but that comes in the resistance side of things - throwing up a stone hut costs a few Vigor, and is resisted by:
- to prevent getting rained on, nothing.
- to stop a meteor shower, the other wizard's roll.
- to impress yokels, their Resist skill roll.

Pretty good, I think. Jared - how does this look to you? What would others beside Jared and I think if they saw this sort of system in a game?

Clinton R. Nixon wrote: You know, that provides for a crackload of magic (besides healing, which bothers me, but I can deal.) You might not see the intention-based side of this, but that comes in the resistance side of things - throwing up a stone hut costs a few Vigor, and is resisted by:
- to prevent getting rained on, nothing.
- to stop a meteor shower, the other wizard's roll.
- to impress yokels, their Resist skill roll.

Pretty good, I think. Jared - how does this look to you? What would others beside Jared and I think if they saw this sort of system in a game?

Hiya Clinton,

Since I'm really looking forward to this game, I guess I'll drop my 2 cents in. There's two major issues at hand you're looking at.

First, the issue of "interest" in the magic system. As you've said, some magic systems are cool and "grabby" and others pretty much define themselves at a certain point. What we're talking about here is the niftiness factor of system exploration.

D&D's feat system is mostly(although not completely) about giving players new abilities or allowing them to bypass or break rules. Donjon's system is primarily about increasing effectiveness in what you can already do(although you could get more skills, the system doesn't limit you to begin with...). This is the same sorta stuff that made Magic a popular game, because many of the cards are about giving "new rules/exceptions to rules".

In this case, you do want to give Secrets that allow the players to do more/new stuff, I'd focus on the stuff that reduces or eliminates limitations rather than increases effectiveness. Stuff like Secret of Invisible Hand is great. Stuff like Secret of Magic Contagion, you might want to change to "requires SL of" or something like such.

The second major issue you're dealing with is Dynamic rules, which seem to work for me. The only thing that you might want to consider is give an example of what a particular SL does. For example, an Amazing success might be parting the Red Sea... or maybe its simply flying around. Everway did a good job at this.

Chris

Here's a question for ya:

Can magic in Shadow do "anything"? Does it need to?

I say: NO. I think your basic magical abilities are a good start. Secrets modify those abilities, add powers, break the rules, etc. But it's not at all necessary to bend over backwards for the guy that wants to create a stone house with magic. Just because a player can imagine an effect, that doesn't mean that the system must support that effect.

"I want to create 200 lbs. of molten lead!" Nope, sorry. A good foundation for the scope of magic should help you answer a lot of questions. Can you go back in time? Raise the dead? Fly to the moon? How magical is magic in this game? What is impossible?

John and Chris,

You both make some fine points. I think what I worked out this afternoon is both grabby and useful. (And it definitely sets limits on what magic can do - time travel and raising the dead are both out.)

I added one feature to what I have above under "Intention-Based Magic," which reworded is my magic system text. I added the capability to make Spells - Secrets of formulized magic constructed from the system. To create a spell, you need all the component Secrets. To use one, though, you don't. Spells are bought as Secrets, reducing their cost to cast by 1 attribute point, so you can just buy a spell instead of a bunch of secrets if you're a warrior that wants one spell. Here's three spells I constructed immediately:

Instant Sword (Creation + Transformation): A sword made of solid steel appears in the caster's hand. The caster can make a Rough Crafts Skill Check, with the bonus dice adding to this spell's Skill Roll. This sword lasts for one hour.

Costs
Craft: Create Anything: 1 Vigor.
Transformation: Craft: 1 Grit.
Total cost: 1 Vigor + 1 Grit - 1 = 1 Vigor or 1 Grit.

Wrack (Destruction): The caster can decimate the attribute pools of anyone in his sight. A number of attribute points equal to twice the caster's Success Levels are destroyed.

Costs
Secret of the Invisible Hand: 1 Vigor.
Destruction: Inner Damage: 1 Vigor.
Destruction: Massive Damage: Twice the Success Levels = 2 Grit.
Total cost: 1 + 1 + 2 - 1 = 3 Grit.

Werewolf Transformation (Transformation): The target becomes a bi-pedal wolfen engine of destruction until the next eclipse. Charm is reduced to one point, with the points split between Vigor and Grit. The target's best skill is flipped for Melee, and the target's second best skill is flipped for Bash and Hold. The target's fingers become +1 damage sharp claws. You must touch the target to cast this spell.

Costs
Secret of Magical Persistence: effect lasts until next eclipse = 6 Grit.
Transformation: Living Morph: 1 base Grit + 2 for skill flips + 1 for the claws = 4 Grit.
Total cost: 6 + 4 - 1 = 9 Grit.

Clinton, that rocks and I'm looking forward to checking this out. I really dig the warrior with 2 or 3 spells option, and the instant sword thing is completely anime and I dig it.

Chris

I had a brief comment.

Don't use "Enchantment" as a name for a type of magic.

I've never met anyone (and I've met quite a few people, really) who has any problem with an "enchanted, magical weapon." Granted, using both "enchanted" and "magical" is a little redundant, but it flows better, and they're used interchangably when used alone.

3E sort of fixed this, and sort of didn't; weapons were now 'enhanced' (and had enhancement bonuses), and Enchantment was firmly the same sort of magic school you're talking about now.

..but it really kills some of the flavour. People seem much more accepting of funky magic names, and less-so for rewording common terms ("enchanted weapon), and the phrases they've read in all those fantasy books (often the genesis for these games).

Unfortunately, I don't really have a better name for you to use. Thought I'd at least put in a voice of minor-dissent in the meantime. Rest of it looks grand, of course. ;)

anonymouse wrote: I had a brief comment.

Don't use "Enchantment" as a name for a type of magic.

talysman wrote:

anonymouse wrote: I had a brief comment.

Don't use "Enchantment" as a name for a type of magic.

Ensorcellment, maybe?

the technical term for what Clinton describes as Enchantment -- at least, according to Francis Barrett's The Magus -- is Fascination. but that has problems of its own.

Thanks for the advice, but yeah - drop the naming thing.

Aiee! Hadn't meant for that. It all looks good, so I felt the only thing left was to nitpick. ;) Enchantment it is, then. =)

I always follow modular magical systems with great interest. So far Clinton, this rocks on toast with a bag a' chips. I especially like how it works with your 'secrets' thing; way to go!

Three questions:

• What about Illusions? This seems a little weak in Seemings/Glamour arena; how do I do those?

• How do you conceive of doing all the Healing/Repair/'Reverse the Effect'/Disenchantment stuff with this?

• What about permanent Dweomers? How do I give a sword permanent razor-sharp edge?

This is sooo close, so bleedin' close; you can do it man!

Fang Langford

Le Joueur wrote:

• What about Illusions? This seems a little weak in Seemings/Glamour arena; how do I do those?

• How do you conceive of doing all the Healing/Repair/'Reverse the Effect'/Disenchantment stuff with this?

• What about permanent Dweomers? How do I give a sword permanent razor-sharp edge?

This is sooo close, so bleedin' close; you can do it man!

Hey Clinton,

Clinton R. Nixon wrote: Fang, you might be disappointed in the answers to these.

Clinton R. Nixon wrote: 2. As for counter-spells...but not magically remove damage.

Clinton R. Nixon wrote: 3. Lastly, nothing's permanent.... I'm taking a dodge on those

I would assume that damage/aftereffects are permanent, or at least don't go back to what they were before magic was added to the picture. Of course, that could be a nigh-mandatory Secret to get if that's not the case.

How is this coming, by the way? A game with this cool a backstory bears more discussion.

The more Clinton explains this game, the more it looks like Talislanta. And that's a good thing in my opinion. The thing Shadows doesn't have is Tal's massive and daunting setting that is very, very hard to get a handle on right away.

I like how Shadows has a very detailed and interesting setting while at the same time leaving lots of room to explore. Which, come to think of it, is something that Talislanta does, too. Hmm. What was my point, again?