Maybe some of you had heard about this new game on other forums:

From this site: http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?threadid=16029

"MURPG is unlike any other roleplaying game, even other diceless ones. The entire game is built around the premise that effort, not probability, should determine outcome. So basically, players put in stones of energy to overcome the stones of resistance of a problem, like catching a falling bus or defusing a bomb. If they put in enough stones, they succeed. If they don't try hard enough, they fail. And just like in life, nobody except the {GamesMaster} is ever sure how hard enough is. That's the basic game mechanic. Heck, it's really the only game mechanic. (We do have a chart to go with it. It compares and contrasts the Difficulties and Resistances of a wide range of activities, relating stones to the real world. It's our only real chart, although there's a table of situational modifiers.) There are two kinds of stones, white stones for health and red stones for energy. You use red stones to do things, and you lose white stones if you're injured. The basic unit of time in our game is a Panel, which is defined as anything an artist can draw and a writer can write in a single panel in a comic book. At the end of a Panel, characters regenerate some of the red stones they used that panel, according to how many white stones of health they have left."

"All of the information a player needs to play is contained on their Character Action Display, which also contains Action Boxes and the Energy Reserve where they keep their stones," continued Simons. "If you want to know what you can do, just look at the Actions on your CAD. It's sort of like a multiple choice test. Pick an Action, put in some stones, describe what you want to do to the GM. MURPG is so easy, two players can get together for what we call 'Brawling' and they don't even need a GM to do it. Each player picks a character, sets out their CAD, and takes their turn at answering the age old questions like, 'Who's a better fighter, Spider-Man or Wolverine?' or 'Who's stronger, Hulk or Thor?'

"...I looked, and every game I saw had so many numbers that I began to feel like an accountant. I needed a game that had fewer numbers and a simple system with less math. More story, less luck. A hero should never have to depend on a die roll. How heroic is that? I wanted a game where story mattered as much as the numbers. A game that was like the comic books. I also wanted a game where you could be a powerful character all at once, without having to play for years, yet where advancement was based on what your character does rather than on random points. But all the games I found had too many numbers, too many charts, and most of them were so rigid that you either had to do an hour's worth of math to do something or found that you could not create the character you wanted unless you played a hundred sessions, just to build up your character to where you thought it should start! The MURPG is just what I wanted. It's fun to run! I have not felt this good about a game since I worked on Paranoia."

This part is the most telling (emphasis mine):

"If the original Dungeons & Dragons first came out today, would anyone take the time to learn how to play it, let alone if it took two books and over 700 pages to learn how to play?" Simons asked rhetorically. "We looked at collectible card games and computer roleplaying games and figure out what gamers are looking for today. When we put it all in the blender along with a couple of old issues of Spider-Man and Uncanny X-Men (rare, expensive and quite tasty), what came out was this totally unique, easy-to-play roleplaying game. And then something cool started happening. Everyone who played the game loved it. Even people who didn't want to love it. People who love dice. People who hate comic books. People who had played every RPG made since Chainmail..."

Does this Marvel RPG sound like one of Jared's games? (heck even one of his FREE games?) Or, at the very least, games lke Pantheon that were blasted 2 years ago for not being RPGs. I'm hoping that this "dumbing down" (? Maybe "DeGrognardification" is a better term) of RPGs brings more people into the hobby. Maybe if enough people play, they'll be open to similar games that have existed for years alongside the mainstream RPGs.

Discuss?

Honestly, the mechanics sound very similar to Nobilis, in that it's a resource-distribution system, except with a secret difficulty set by the GM. This annoucement actually got posted to the Nobilis list early this morning as a proof of what Ken Hite said about Nobilisque mechanics eventually showing up in other games. Personally, I'm most excited about the possibility of GM-less play :)

Having Marvel behind any kind of non-traditional roleplaying game is one of the greatest things that could possible happen. It means the efforts of the indie community and individual creators is starting to show up in the "mainstream" (to use the old, un-reappropriated version of the term).

And if they get funky, it means we can get even funkier...

Who's the publisher? I couldn't get that from the site.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Who's the publisher? I couldn't get that from the site.

As I understand it, Marvel is the publisher. They're doing a huge (72-page, I think) insert in InQuest magazine showing off the game and giving basically a quick-start version of the system.

It's not indie, but I'm damn excited, actually.

Yeah, Clinton. Indie-shmindie, it's a powerhouse publisher pushing something innovative. Cool.

Mike

Sounds like something I would have done if I had done it. ;)

But man, a 72 page insert? Why do you need that much space?

- J

Edit: whoa, I *did* do something like this before. I was re-reading my Vampires game (after posting the link on RPG.net re: "clanless" vampire games) and saw something similar to this new Marvel game.
http://www.memento-mori.com/games/vampires.html

I'm suspecting a big book with a short mechanics section, the ubiquitous List of 1,001 Superpowers and full write-ups for everyone in the MU. So maybe you need tons of space after all.

Naw, just sample character in the main book. Who's Who will no doubt be sold separately. In fact, if they're really cagey (and we know they are), they'll sell figures with stats so that you have to collect something expensive to know your favorite character's official stats.

Mike

Yeah, what I'm really excited about is this:

"And then something cool started happening. Everyone who played the game loved it. Even people who didn't want to love it. People who love dice. People who hate comic books. People who had played every RPG made since Chainmail..."

So it seems that, unless they're lying, both gamers and non-gamers are warming to the experience of this game. In other words, the current cries on other forums of "It's not an RPG if it doesn't use dice!" and "It's a Pokemon-ized RPG" from the old-school grognards and the like will be drowned out by the sound of people having fun playing this new-style (for mainstream, anyway) RPG.

FEEL. THESE. NIPPLES.

There's a couple of things that have me excited about this game.

First, I've loved all the various incarnations of the Marvel games, and I think that this is yet another step in the right direction. When you have people messing with the stuff of space and time every other issue, modeling "reality" is pretty much pointless. Second, I'm glad to see a corporate publisher is getting the idea that play is more important than "tried and true" design philosophy. I think if this game is a success, we'll find more games willing to use alternate mechanics...And we may even find WOTC reconsidering their sales philosophy.

So far, lots of designs have stayed mired in the idea of go with what you know. It's just like ultra realistic flight sims on the PC. They're always for sale, and they sell enough that folks keep making'em, but not enough people want to get all into the details to learn them to become a big hit. Meanwhile stuff that folks can pick up right away and enjoy(console games) push the industry into a multibillion dollar business.

What I think is amazing here, is that we've got folks who are concentrating on the most important thing: play. Not marketing, not sales, but play. Design around play, not around marketing. It was that focus that made stuff like Magic boom.

But, and here's the big BUT: Indie games will still be small time simply because they don't come with the "sexy-sexy" full color books, multimedia advertising campaign/assualt, and the brand name. The benefit if this is a success, though, is that we'll see the usual indie to corporate trickle down benefit of quality and innovation, which is still better than nothing.

Of course, I'm a big comic head anyway, so I'm stoked!

Chris

Andy Kitkowski wrote:
"And then something cool started happening. Everyone who played the game loved it. Even people who didn't want to love it. People who love dice. People who hate comic books. People who had played every RPG made since Chainmail..."

FEEL. THESE. NIPPLES.

Those advertisement bucks may end up helping the rest of us by validating the notion that a game doesn't have to be anything like a WOTC game to be good.

all the games I found had too many numbers, too many charts, and most of them were so rigid that you either had to do an hour's worth of math to do something

arxhon wrote: True, but we knew this already, right, Mike? That's what the forge is about!

Ah, I see. I didn't mean to come across as smarmy. My apologies.

Hopefully the general gaming public is receptive to something that isn't D20, and from what i've seen, a lot of them are mildly disgruntled, and that's always ripe pickings for the properly placed game developer. :-)

Ah, I love my FLGS. It's still Febuary, and they were selling the April issue of Inquest with the Marvelly goodness.

Mmm, Marvelly goodness. :)

As to the system itself- it's a bit crunchy to read, but I've got the feeling that that's just 'adapting to new nomenclature' type stuff. The pages are actually taken up with a pretty damn in-depth explanation of WHY the game is designed the way it is, what that structure is (stones acting as action currency, etc). Then the rest is an adventure for either a group of X-Men or members of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.

Also, damnit. Something else I have to buy now. :)

The Marvel rpg excites me not just because it's design parameters sound like something out of my RPG wishlist (rules lite,flexible,limited bookkeeping, and a resolution and time/action control mechanics that actually reflect the genre (karma and panels).

But the MURPG excites me because Marvel is attempting to do something that I have been preaching since I realised just what Rien-Hagen really did when he created Vampire, that is create a whole new rpg market derived from people who arent the typical hobby shop denizen.

Marvel is trying to create a NEW MARKET too. They have correctly decided that 90% of the hobby shop based rpg crowd will never look up from D&D long enough to see if this game is any good anyway, certainly not enough to prevent it from becoming a niche (Marvel superhero gamers),of a niche (superhero gamers) of a niche (rpgs).

They are targeting the comics readers who arent rpg gamers which is quite a lot. And they are doing it with a game that is designed to give them what they like and to be easy to pick up rather that an accountant's nightmare like Hero games or D&D have evolved into.

And Marvel has a hundred times the capacity to create a new market than Rien-Hagen did. They are already international distributed publishers, they can thumb their nose at the politics of the rpg distribution networks. , they have a product built around some of the most recognizable pop culture icons in the world.

In short they have the chance to create a totallyn ew rpg world. A totally new community, which isn't hopelyssly attached to old ways of doing things,that wont be thrown off by an rpg without dice because they dont know rpg's are 'supposed' to have dice.

I'm stoked, this could actually return me to the ranks of rpg gamer with it potential to break the stranglehold of 'anything you like so long as it's D&D' in my area. And who knows if I decide that the Marvel resolution mechanic is better for simulating comix ,I may start to wonder whats so great about dice in espionage games,space games,fantasy games.... see how dangerous new ideas are, it already has me reconsidering 25 years of gaming habits....

Did some emailing with the head of Q.E.D. today. Thought I'd share:

Jonathan Walton wrote:

> Hey Q.E.D.,
>
> Just heard about the new Marvel Universe RPG when someone posted the
> announcement about it to the Nobilis mailing list. All I can say is "I'm
> stunned." First, that you convinced Marvel to do what it should have done
> in the first place, i.e. publish its own roleplaying game. Secondly, that
> you convinced them to go out on a limb with a system that was both diceless
> and potentially GM-less. And, thirdly, that you're using a
> resource-distribution-based system, which (aside from Nobilis) has only
> really been used in the indie-RPG community. Amazing.
>
> If the final product goes anywhere near fulfilling the hype surrounding
> this project, it will be nothing less than a gaming milestone, in no
> uncertain terms. I hope you guys are up to the task, because it's a tough
> one, and I would really love to see you succeed with flying colors.
>
> Good luck.
> Jonathan Walton
> http://100flowers.indie-rpgs.com


Dear Jonathan:

We weren't scared until we read your email.

"Out on a limb" huh?

The funny thing is, the deeper we got into the system, the more organic to
the Marvel Universe it really felt. So as long as we (and by we I mean
everyone who's played it so far) aren't all sharing the same consensual
hallucination, then it's really not hype, and the game really is what we
think it is.

Of course, indie gamers like yourself will be the true judge on a scale
that's kind of important to us.

You see, while some of us at QED have played pretty much every game ever
published (although we have to admit to drawing a blank on Nobilis), others
of us, like Jeff, the president, have never enjoyed the "pre-packaged"
stuff. He played in 3 or 4 indie campaigns, and ran two of his own creations
for years.

Dan, who has played most other games, has been playing in indie worlds and
running his own unique worlds for decades. One of them even uses Tarot Cards
as the resolution system.

In fact, the reason we started QED back in 1997 was because we had all of
these games we'd come up with ourselves, that we thought were worthwhile,
but that weren't like anything out there, and so we figured what the heck. I
guess everyone starts out that way.

Euro-games are a big influence on us, especially Evan, the third of three,
so to speak. He's our major systems guy, and he fell in love with resource
distribution. And since Jeff hates luck (he has "great strategy, lousy luck"
syndrome), and die rolls just didn't make any sense for Marvel anyway, it
just seemed the way to go.

We do want to say a few words about Marvel, though. We really didn't have to
do any convincing, at all. They have been nothing but supportive all the way
through the process. Maybe because most of them weren't gamers already, they
were more open to a system that was so different. And maybe it's because
resource distribution was what was missing in a comic book rpg all along.
(Sorry Spider-Man, you rolled badly, Aunt May is dead!) But Mark Beazley,
our editor and an avid D&D'er and die-roller, also took to the new system
right away, so go figure.

Maybe it really is good.

Anyway, we look forward to your opinion once you've seen it. And where can
we go to find out more about Nobilis?

Thanks again for the well wishes.

Dan, Evan and Jeff
Q.E.D. Games, Inc.

sounds like if the new marvel RPG gets popular it's going to do to RPGs what Wizkid's MageKnight/Shadowrun/Battletech did for the mainstream strategy/combat based games...
I think I'd be interested in reading it, but I wouldn't buy it I've seen too many horrid superhero games (DC Superheros the old marvel RPGs) to invest in something that's either so horrid, it's unplayable or so simple it loses my attention in five minutes... I remeber reading DC superheros system for the first time (I got it for free from a closing comic/game shop) and thinking MY GOD HOW HIDEOUS THIS IS!!!

Try and con a friend into buying it, then.

Or blow six bucks on a copy of InQuest from your FLGS when the issue with Wolverine on the cover comes out (they don't mention the actual review, irritably).

All I can say is, the more I read/think about it, the cooler/better for Comic Books it seems than any other Supers system I've ever seen. Must arrange playtest soon...

I went to three different bookstores today, and at all of them I stopped to look for the new InQuest. None of them had it, of course, because I live in the butt-end of hell. So now I have jealousy for all those that were able to pick it up.

Anyway, so far as actual constructive comments go, I’d just like to say: ME TOO!

Well, maybe not that constructive.

Seriously, I have high hopes for this game both as something I will play and as something that will sell to a new market. Every time I hear someone say “I will hate it because it doesn’t have dice” it only makes me pray all the harder that it sells 500,000 copies before the end of the year. I hope and pray that the arrogance of the position that if it is not D&Dish it is not RP is washed away by the gleeful cries of CCGers and CRPGers having fun playing Marvel.

Yes, I’m bitter today, having had one too many run-ins with dice-fetishists, but really, I mean well. This could be a good, positive, and healthy step for RPGs as a whole.

Not to put any pressure on the Marvel folks, or anything.

Has a MSRP been announced for the Marvel game, when will it be available, and where can I get my hands on a copy of what sounds like a spectacularly intirguing game?

Michael Hopcroft wrote: Has a MSRP been announced for the Marvel game, when will it be available, and where can I get my hands on a copy of what sounds like a spectacularly intirguing game?

May 7th, actually. Leastwise, according to the ad in InQuest.
Rah!

It's going to come out in late May / early June and will be a 28 page hardback retailing for $24.99.

Yeah, it's 128 pages. Also, don't know if the relase date is in "comics time" or not. Comics generally come out 1-2 months BEFORE the date on the cover, due to strange factors within the community itself. Some magazines too, actually, since the April issue of InQuest is out now. Since Marvel's publishing it personally (like a Hardcover graphic novel, and maybe with those same dimensions, ala Hellboy), I would imagine that it would get released along with the other May comics, which is to say, in April.

*blinkblink*

Ya'know, I hadn't even thought of that. ROCK! :)

Matt Gwinn wrote:

It's going to come out in late May / early June and will be a 28 page hardback retailing for $24.99.

This has to be a typo.

,Matt G.

So a very Narrativisty game is being designed and distributed to the mass(ier) market. Wait, isn't this one of the signs of the Apocalypse?

"And lo, a new generation of gamers who knew not of D20s or click-bases or ultra-foil limited cards emerged. And they focused on telling stories over calculating the airspeed of webbing or the optimal angle of descent for aerial diving move-throughs."

If they pull this off and it becomes a "hit" with the more mainstream masses (the kind the news people might do a story on) this really could send major ripples through the gaming "industry."

The possibility of it all makes me feel light-headed.

wyrdlyng wrote:
If they pull this off and it becomes a "hit" with the more mainstream masses (the kind the news people might do a story on) this really could send major ripples through the gaming "industry."

The possibility of it all makes me feel light-headed.

I rock out for a good long time?

Or a Magnaverse suppliment, for the invasion of BESM's home turf. Since the same logic behind making MURPG resource based applies damn elegantly to most anime, and it'll be so easy to adapt super powers to anime super powers...

Hi guys,

Um, aren't we missing something?

The game Marvel Super Heroes was published, I believe, in 1984. It was remarkably different from any other game published so far, and from any game published later until Prince Valiant in 1989. Its design features correspond to all the concepts that Andy is so enthused about for this new game, although perhaps not as overtly.

I remember that at the time, I and fellow Champions-heads considered MSH "silly," but over time, I think that it's proved itself one of the best games ever published. In play, people Drifted MSH to fairly swift Gamism or very solid Narrativism (systems that facilitate these play-modes are often similar), depending on how they treated the reward system (Karma).

So I guess I consider Andy's enthusiasm to be unjustified. What's so special about a good, solid, non-Sim superhero game now, as opposed to twenty years ago?

I also think this concept is worth considering: that superhero games will bring gamers to comics, but they won't bring comics people to games.

Best,
Ron

I also think this concept is worth considering: that superhero games will bring gamers to comics, but they won't bring comics people to games.

*blinkblink*

Er. You mean the MSH's game that rated stats as Feeble, Amazing, Incredible, Monsterous and whatnot? Or was there another one that I'm not aware of?

The one that was still a fortune-based system, as opposed to a resource-management one (albiet with some fuzziness, as you could spend your experience to enhance your actions). And, at least as importantly, the one that was marketed to gamers, not comic bookers?

Hell, even if it was a re-release I'd be happy (not as happy as I presently am, but even so). The last bit (Marvel's marketing strategy) has a chance to expand the current market of gamers a goodly chunk, which I strongly approve of and hope for. What pushes me into tittering gigglefits is that a seriously backed mainstream game is going to be diceless. Also, it looks fun as hell :)

Hi there,

Yeah, that's the game that I'm thinking of (and played with great delight and surprise a few years ago). Your response reveals another point of disagreement between us, I think.

It's that term "diceless." Basically, I think dicelessness is nearly a non-issue, as you can see in my GNS essay. It doesn't indicate anything to me about the game's quality, focus, or

This new game appears, so far (and based on advertising text), to have more in its goodness-bag than the dice or lack of dice. It appears to have some focus, some elegance, and some real design (e.g. resource management). We have no idea what the focus is, whether that focus will appeal to comics readers, and most importantly, whether any aspects of the game will bring comics folks into gaming. I very much doubt that dicelessness, per se, has anything to do with this latter point.

And to be even more of a heretic, I'll challenge Andy's whole point in starting this thread by questioning whether "bringing people into gaming" is even viable through cross-medium marketing, especially en masse. Matt's anecdote doesn't refute my point at all; he was already a D&D player, solo or not, before the comics-connection was established.

Best,
Ron

Mm. I'd say that diceless-ness isn't as much of a non-issue as you make it out to be. Since traditional thinking in roleplaying games has been that diceless games won't sell, and so limits design to only games which have a stronger Fortune mechanic. Making a resource-management game that becomes popular wouldn't just demonstrate the validity of another style of mechanic (resource management) but break down the old assumption (Fortune is neccesary).

And it does have all the elegance and suchlike- but I've already ranted on those, at length. :)

As to the challenge- well, has it ever been tried before? Not with RPGs, but I could make a strong arguement that the Sims, by radically challenging some of the assumptions of standard computer game design while creating a clever and elegant toybox, serves as a good model of how to bring non-gamers into a new market.

Ron doesn't get it, because not only is he already in the choir, he one of the choir directors.

What we are talking about quite simply is a game that (from the sounds of it) seems pretty darn leading edge even by Forge standards in terms of breaking the mold of traditional RPG trappings...AND...is backed by a heavy duty license. Sure there have been leading edge games before, but none that are likely to be checked out by such a broad swath of the gaming market. Prince Valiant...sure...that's great to the few gamers who are into checking out innovative new stuff and the half dozen people who remember the comic strip from the newspaper. Baron Munch, De Profundis...sure. Those are great to the segment of the market who finds Hogshead's quirky New Line intrigueing.

But this...this is MARVEL. This is a MAJOR licensed product that isn't going d20. That isn't going d20 with the serial numbers filed off like Coda. That isn't going anything even remotely resembling a traditional RPG. This has the potential to reach a larger segment of the gaming populace than Valant, Hogshead, et.al. put together....and its completely "out in left field" by traditional standards. This is huge.

Hi there,

Shrug, man. They did the exact same thing in 1984 - the MSH back then was as innovative, if not more so, relative to all existing games at the time as this one is now. They were Marvel back then, too.

Why is this instance so special, aside from the usual giddy desire to believe that licensing somehow effects revolutions in customer preferences?

Or to put it a little differently, this desire is similar to the comics fans' deeply-held belief that a really kick-ass movie based on a superhero will create more comics fans.

Superman didn't do it back in the 1970s. I very much doubt that the current line of movies (X-Men, Spider-Man, Daredevil) will do it. And I think all of these were exceptionally good movies by any standards.

Best,
Ron

As Ron suggests, it may not be the case that the hope implicit here (that the new Marvel game will turn a whole host of new folks into "gamers" like thee and me, sort of like an entry-level gaming drug) will be recognized. I think that's unlikely even if we accept all the claims about its novelty.

But the movie analogy is inapt: a movie isn't a comic book, but a game is a game.

So the new Marvel game might have an effect similar to MSH: simply being another alternative for those who already role-play. On the other hand, if it's sufficiently novel (which is what's being argued) in its conceptualization and delivery, then maybe it will have some kind of effect. If I were more knowledgeable, I'd suggest a parallel closer to Magic: The Gathering. That created a class of "gamers" who aren't role-players in the big-tent sense alluded to in the history of D&D thread below, but who recognize themselves as "Magic players."

The extent to which Magic players become role-players is not known to me. If it's a lot, then new Marvel game may have a profound effect.

There are holes in my argument that that I'd like to patch before posting this, but I have a meeting right this second.

Bill

I think that the only sure-fire prediction any of us can make about the new Marvel Universe RPG is that it will cause thousands of game geeks to acquire a weird mutant power that compels them to tell everyone about the "cool character I made up that's kinda like a cross between Spider-Man, Wolverine and the Hulk. With radar sense."

Oh, no way man. My guy, he's like a cross between Wolverine and the Dark Phoneix, except HIS Weapon Z program gave him Nightcrawler's teleporting too.

He's cool, and by cool I mean totally sweet.

Ron Edwards wrote: Or to put it a little differently, this desire is similar to the comics fans' deeply-held belief that a really kick-ass movie based on a superhero will create more comics fans.

Superman didn't do it back in the 1970s. I very much doubt that the current line of movies (X-Men, Spider-Man, Daredevil) will do it. And I think all of these were exceptionally good movies by any standards.

I don't think Andy (or I) is claiming the game is going to sweep the world by storm and bring zillions of new gamers into the hobby. I also don't really care what game may or may not have been "innovative" before (although having played the old Marvel game with its silly sounding adjective stats I can't possibly see how its being put on the same scale of innovation. That game poked at the envelope, this one throws the envelope away and sends a post card).

What's Andy and I are both excited about is the additional credibility that will come to non traditional game mechanics by their being associated with a major license. Would anyone really try to claim that diceless roleplaying didn't get a huge boost as a viable game mechanic simply because of its use in Amber? I wouldn't. It is the mass appeal of the Amber license that got enough people to give diceless role playing a shot. If Eric W had published the exact same game as "Gods of Olympus" you have an interesting footnote in the history of gaming played by the same segment of gamers that already enjoy trying different mechanics. Diceless mechanics gained enormous credibility as something more than a cute gimmick because enough people were attracted by the license for it to reach a critical mass of players. Would Nobilis be the talk of the year if Amber hadn't paved the way. I doubt it. Why? Because Nobilis (and Everway) are just plain wierd mechanically.

Wierd = bad to the mainstream consumer until someone with cred does it...then wierd becomes hip (witness any fashion trend). So after several years of license product after license product falling to the d20 marketing machine its down right thrilling that a big license goes to something so completely "wierd" as what this game is described as being.

Ron Edwards wrote: We have no idea what the focus is, whether that focus will appeal to comics readers, and most importantly, whether any aspects of the game will bring comics folks into gaming. I very much doubt that dicelessness, per se, has anything to do with this latter point.

Or to put it a little differently, this desire is similar to the comics fans' deeply-held belief that a really kick-ass movie based on a superhero will create more comics fans.

Is it unimportant that TSR published MSH, and this new game is being designed by a small group and distributed by Marvel itself?

Mike

First, despite what Q.E.D. is saying about their background in indie games and their innovative game system, there are a couple of signs ("One of his games even uses Tarot cards as a resolution mechanic" and the fact that they've never heard of Nobilis) that make me suspect that they're not as in touch with roleplaying's counter-culture as they'd like to believe. Were they just asleep for Everway, Once Upon a Time, and Dust Devils? How do you miss Nobilis when it's consistently getting 5/5 every week at RPGnet? I'm going to be trying hard to keep my expectations low, since those 128 pages are likely to be filled with a whole host of traditional gaming gimmicks that will alienate potential cross-community purchases by comics fans.

Ron Edwards wrote: Shrug, man. They did the exact same thing in 1984 - the MSH back then was as innovative, if not more so, relative to all existing games at the time as this one is now. They were Marvel back then, too.

quot;Jonathan Walton there are a couple of signs ("One of his games even uses Tarot cards as a resolution mechanic" and the fact that they've never heard of Nobilis) that make me suspect that they're not as in touch with roleplaying's counter-culture as they'd like to believe. Were they just asleep for Everway, Once Upon a Time, and Dust Devils? How do you miss Nobilis when it's consistently getting 5/5 every week at RPGnet? I'm going to be trying hard to keep my expectations low, since those 128 pages are likely to be filled with a whole host of traditional gaming gimmicks that will alienate potential cross-community purchases by comics fans.

On the 1980s MSH game:

In retrospect, yes, the game was innovative. Did anyone notice this at the time, though? I remember not really knowing what to make of Karma - I treated as somewhere between xp, alignment, and some kind of power pool. Other than that, the game was easily understood by most conventional gamers. Yes, stats had descriptors, but they also had numbers assigned to them. There was a big chart and some percentile dice. It seemed standard.

Was it subversive?

Not really. It couldn't be effectively subversive due to the gaming culture and lack of alternatives. Say you used MSH to run a Narrativism-heavy game. Could you then transition to other Narrativist systems? Were there any?

Jump 20 years into the future.

Remembering when the 80s game came out, I feel old.

What are the differences here?

First, is dicelessness. Does this matter? Yes. The reason this matters is because it blatantly distinguishes this game from most more traditional rpgs. It won't have the superficial similarity to mainstream rpgs that the original MSH game had. It will open a lot of people's eyes to the fact that things can be done differently. The dicelessness doesn't matter because it is fortuneless. The dicelessness matters because it is unmistakenly different.

Second, there are other games out there today that support different styles of play, and there is the internet to provide access to them. The culture of gaming and the range of games available are much wider now than they were in the 80s. People who like the new MSH game might look for similar games on the net in other genres. They may well end up here.

Stuart

The old Marvel Super-Heroes RPG was my first gaming experience. I remember my Etrigan rip-off, Hellborn fondly as my first character when I was about 12 years old.

I wasn't exactly looking at the game with a GNS-Critical eye but could someone explain to me why that game was innovative.

It is funny because I was talking about gaming with a buddy of mine and he said, "You know what game I'd like to play again? Marvel, with the Unearthly stats and that little table on the back of the book. That game rocked!"

I was baffled and I remain baffled.

Maybe this question should be a different thread but why is that game seen as a great one?

Bill White wrote: The extent to which Magic players become role-players is not known to me. If it's a lot, then new Marvel game may have a profound effect.

Bill White wrote: But the movie analogy is inapt: a movie isn't a comic book, but a game is a game.

The question is whether fans of A in form A will continue to be fans of A in form B--that is, not whether moviegoers become comic book readers, but whether comic book readers become moviegoers.

I dunno, I keep seeing people like Brand explain why they think this new Marvel game is an exciting development, but it seems like other people are missing that point and instead going over familiar old arguments of "is it really innovative?" or "does crossover marketing really work?"

it's not about being innovative. so what if the game isn't innovative? most people buy games because they sound fun; only people who enjoy innovative games buy games that are innovative.

it's not about crossover marketing, although I'm sure Marvel is counting on a little of that to work in their favor.

it's about two things: eyeballs and ease-of-play.

make no mistake: Marvel doesn't care about bringing new people to the RPG hobby. they care about selling Marvel products. they want to sell a lot of copies of this new game. that may indirectly bring new people to the hobby, but that's not anywhere on Marvel's agenda.

so what is different about this incarnation of the Marvel Superheroes game? first is: more eyeballs. the previous Marvel game was a licensed product, created and marketed by TSR, which at the time was one of the biggest RPG companies around -- but just an RPG company. this game is a work-for-hire created for Marvel, which Marvel plans on marketting itself. it will get more shelf space and more sales outlets than the previous game, because Marvel has more pull than TSR ever did. that means more people will see the game.

still, that doesn't mean more people will buy or play the game. the game needs a smooth, simple design. it needs a rules system comparable to Monopoly or Go Fish, if Marvel expects to sell it to more than just hardcore gamers. so far, the description of the game sounds like it might meet this ease-of-play requirement.

this does not mean that Marvel will necessarily succeed in revitalizing RPGs. there are still other issues that can affect sales: the "RPG stigma", for example, or blowbakc from overhyped marketing, or maybe another fad will catch the public's interest and distract them from the new game.

but it definitely looks like something different will happen, for the simple reason that Marvel is not an RPG company, so they can't be expected to market their game the way White Wolf or Wizards of the Coast market their games.

Well... the new InQuest is out.

Based on a quick reading, I'm not sure how I feel about the game. There are some neat ideas, sure. The Lines of Experience and the Flashback Panels are especially nice touches.

On the other hand, GM-less play is (at least in the text) limited to fights.

The entire thing is written in a style that is probably intended to target people new to roleplaying. It came off (to me) as alternately condescending or somewhat ingnorant-sounding (This isn't like any other roleplaying game: there are NO dice!!). The writing is pretty easy to follow, but some nice summaries would have been useful.

What is printed in the magazine looks to be the bulk of the rules. Magic and Power armor aren't included. I suspect many other actions (Powers and Skills) are in the main book that aren't in the excerpt.

Stuart

szilard wrote: The entire thing is written in a style that is probably intended to target people new to roleplaying. It came off (to me) as alternately condescending or somewhat ingnorant-sounding (This isn't like any other roleplaying game: there are NO dice!!).

It's not actually that bad- it just assumes a familiarity with the trappings of roleplaying without any deeper idea of what's involved, rather than total ignorance, and explains how, yes, this is a roleplaying game with those trappings radically different or gone.

Right Drew, it's marketing.

The question is whether or not it's good marketing. Certrainly isn't targeting us, but then I didn't think it would. I'm just hoping it doesn't hurt us because people reading don't start to believe that this is the only innovative game in existence.

What would have been really cool would have been something like, "Leveraging off of todays best RPG technology, this game is totally innovative."

Where's Wujcik? Wonder what he thinks. :-)

Mike

Oops- I think I keep missing my "You have a new message in Topic X" emails. :)

I guess we could speculate more about what will happen (admittedly, my initial post was speculation curled up in a "Guys! Guys! Lookit this! Guys!!" post), but I guess in the end we'll have to wait 2 years to see what really happens with this game.

On one hand, I'm thinking that the Vampire game brought tons of people into the hobby that wouldn't have touched or even noticed RPGs otherwise. I lived in Chicago when VtM 1E came out. It was a revolution. Maybe an "icky" one, but a revolution nonetheless. :) This would lead me to believe that something big can happen. Especially if Marvel just ignores the RPG community and focuses on their own crowd (IMO, this is the best thing that they can do to make this game really sell).

On the other hand, back in the days of Vampire 1E, there effectively wasn't an internet (BBSes, yeah, but nothing like the internet for common non-college folk), there were no MMORPGs, there weren't video and computer games coming out constantly that are as immersive and time-consuming as there are now. So the other side of me is thinking that "The Revolution" will MAYBE result in only bring One Dude and his 4 Buddies to GenCON.

I guess we can drop the speculation, then, and just sit back and wait.

Oh, and Valamir had a point, too- I was also excited that something this mainstream was using a new mechanic. I mean, all the other big licensed products these days: Buffy, Star Wars, Hellboy, Judge Dredd. Attributes. Skills. Dice. Character Sheets. 4-6 players and 1 GM. No matter how they spice up the license, it just feels like another Anygame with window dressing.

This is something that's... well... obviously different enough for people to sit up and take notice. I'm excited, hoping that maybe our RPG clansmen will be more open to alternative systems in RPGs, and that in maybe 2-3 years more mainstream games will come out where the designer has an idea for a game, and builds the system from the ground up (like y'all do here at the Forge) rather than "What (existing) system do we use? What is our attribute list? What is our skill list?"

Ron Edwards wrote: (on MSH:) Its design features correspond to all the concepts that Andy is so enthused about for this new game, although perhaps not as overtly.

I went to my FLCBS to buy the InQuest Marvel RPG preview issue (my FLGS was sold out). The conversation at the counter:

Store Owner: Huh. These InQuest magazines... sometimes I sell a lot of them, and sometimes they sit and gather dust.

Me: Well, I'm buying this one for the Marvel RPG preview stuff.

SO: Oh yeah... they were just soliciting for that. It's a hardcover? For 30 dollars or something. I wasn't gonna bring any in. Do you think anyone would buy that?

Me (stunned): Um. Well, yeah. I plan to buy it, but I'm a gamer and I buy almost every new game. I bet some comic fans will get into it, though. Then again, you know your customers better than I do.

SO: Hmmm. Maybe I'll bring in 2 copies and see how they do. Thanks for the feedback.

--------

Uh. Wow. This guy runs a very popular and well-stocked comic book store in Seattle (Zanadu, on 45th). He's been in the comic book biz for a long, long time. And he wasn't going to stock any Marvel RPG books. Based on a single anecdotal experience, I'd say crossover between comic readers and gamers might be pretty minimal.

After giving the rules a good going-over, I have to say I'm pretty pleased. They have lots and lots of fiddly-bits and tactical decisions that affect play, and resolution is very fast. In the examples, no fight goes for more than 2 actions per character. I like the notion that a character succeeds or fails based on how important the action is to the PC. It would be nice if the game had more of an explicit system for "what's important to you?" but I guess that comes across in the decisions you make during play.

The way the system conflates toughness and dodge is a concern (they both add to "defense"), but I can see that it probably works fine in play.

My current play style is much more rules-lite than this, but I plan to buy the game and at least run a playtest or two before making up my mind.

Feng wrote: SO: Oh yeah... they were just soliciting for that. It's a hardcover? For 30 dollars or something. I wasn't gonna bring any in. Do you think anyone would buy that?

The obvious thing, it seems to me, is to have almost 1/2 of the game text (or, heck, all of it) be done in a comic book format. I mean, we've seen "Understanding Comics." We know that you can use the comic medium to explain things, so why not use it as the medium for explaining a game about comics? I mean, at least have an example of play done like that (cref -- Vampire: Dark Ages).

I'm astounded that someone hasn't done this already. With Hellboy, Prince Valiant, and all the superhero schlock out there, why doesn't someone write an RPG as a comic? Heck, James West would be a good person to do it, since he's already doing Random Comics & Games.

Later.
Jonathan

Jonathan Walton wrote: The obvious thing, it seems to me, is to have almost 1/2 of the game text (or, heck, all of it) be done in a comic book format.

Hey all,

I can't seem to find a copy of inquest anywhere these days. (They used to carry Inquest everywhere - even at all the local grocery stores -but not anymore.)

Does Inquest have a website? ( A google search for 'Inquest' seems to turn up nothing useful and Marvel.com didn't have anything on their game yesterday.)

I prefer to check out a game's quickstart before I decide about purchasing it. Got any ideas on alternate places where I can look? Or am I simply going to have to wait until it's on the shelf?

Thanks!
Sparky

Jonathan Walton wrote:
The obvious thing, it seems to me, is to have almost 1/2 of the game text (or, heck, all of it) be done in a comic book format.

Jonathan, this is a WONDERFUL idea. And I can't believe no one has done it yet. The Marvel RPG would have been perfect this way. It even uses "panels" and "pages" instead of turns and rounds.

Hello,

This thread has now spawned several sub-topics, some of which are pretty neat and others which are flapping their flippers, trying to stand up. I also think the original topic has been beaten flat and breathed its last.

Please take all discussion to new threads, and begin them with clear topics.

Thanks,
Best,
Ron

I can't seem to find these threads. Can anyone help me, here?

I want to answer any/all questions folks have with the system, be it here or elsewhere.

Umm, most of the threads on the Marvel RPG have tapered out a bit. If you want to address and answer questions about it, why not start a new thread?

Thanks. Will do.