Okay, now don't everyone get excited--I'm not talking about handing out so many that the characters all glow like Christmas trees...

Many of the fantasy novels that have inspired me include a protagonist with a magic item (usually a sword). Now I'm not into "equipping" a party for every eventuallity, but I have thought about how some magic items (especially weapons) might be handled in TROS. Powers and abilities are pretty wasy to come up with, it's more a matter of when should magic items be used, and what are the implications of using them.

First, all magic items are unique, so there would be no "Sword +1" stuff. The history of the blade should be well known by the Seneschal, and the blade should turn up where it does for a reason. Of course once a character obtains it, word will spread quickly--for good and bad. While merely possessing a magic sword will frighten away many potential foes, it will also draw much unwanted attention--much of it power powerful individuals with significant resources.

For example, suppose Tomaris were to come across the lengendary Fey-blade Aratarkis which was wielded of old by a Fey king who once ruled all of the lands in the area. Now, a few thousand years later, the fey are long gone, remembered only in legend. The good king Harald has just been deposed by his cousin Rufus the Red, who is attempting to consolidate his power. Now Rufus has heard about Tomaris and his discovery, and has decided that possessing Aratarkis might add an air of legitimacy his rule in the eyes of some of the rebellious nobles who continue to resist him. Tomaris might have a very short life. Of course, if Tomaris obtained the blade by robbing the barrow of a Fey King, any Fey in the area are likely to be very unhappy about this...

Something I've noticed in epic fantasy and even some old Sagas is how some magic items seem to have a destiny of their own. So perhaps the most interesting magic items would have their own Spiritual Abilities. Instead of adding bonuses to any activity, would only add bonuses to acitivities that serve a part of an item's greater destiny. So a sword with an SA relating to Right and Justice might only receive bonuses when dispatching right and justice. This could be taken a step further by saying that actions which are contrary to the purpose of a sword might even be hindered by the sword. So a brigand using the "Sword of Justice" to murder and pillage might actually find that the sword's bonuses are added to his foes' CP...

Lastly, certain item seem to gain a destiny based on how they are used. I don't really know how to model this in the game. But perhaps certain major actions might lend a purpose to an item. For example, if Lord Wulfstan, stalwart defender of justice and good, were to banish a greater demon, perhaps the blade he used would acquire a special purpose. Of course the blade would be revered by Wulfstan--and handed down from generation to generation--becoming almost a religious artifact...

Steve Reich

Steve the last part of your post I think hits on something that is down right brilliant, and I'm pretty sure has not been a topic here before. Magic Artifacts defined by their own SAs. The "power" of the artifact comes from these SAs with the flavor text of the artifact providing the scope and nature of their application.

Conceptually this could be applied to anything from Elric's sword to Aadon's broach of wisdom from Prydain.

*blinkblink*

Oh. My. God.

Magical Items being defined by SAs of their own.

It's full of stars! :)

Course, there's also the 'other' qualities of such mystic items which are always on- Excalibur cutting through steel like water, and the sheath halting bloodloss from wounds, for example...

But, on the whole, that fits... so well...

I'm with Valamir. Great idea, having magic weapons with SAs. No other bonus (other than fine craftsmanship or such) would even be needed for an impressive magical artifact.

You can also enchant items and imbed spells rather easily under the current sorcery rules, creating a large variety of magical items.

Jake

Hi there,

Ralph's suggestion is wonderful, and owes a bow in the direction of the rules for magical stuff in Orkworld, which are all based on the metagame mechanic "Trouble" in that game. Check it out for great guidelines and examples for applying the concept, all of which 'port into Riddle of Steel SA terms with nary a peep.

Best,
Ron

This is one that I have never been able to resist discussing in RPGs. I think that you are on the right track as far as not having so many magic items about, especially the "Noun of Verbing" types. I have a few methods I use for magic items that seem to work well for me and the players in the group I am currently in.

The first question is how did it become magical? Was it made that way by some Fey artisan? Or was it just a really good blade that seemed to absorb some of the essence of the task at hand or some similar theory?

What does it do? If it was in the hands of a brave Knight Hospitaler who fought bravely in battle, yet cared for the ill in the meantime, does it seem extra sharp (+1dam) or eager to cut the foe (-1ATN)? What about it having some unusual power to accelerate healing in some fashion(+1Dice or -1TN)? How does one know it is magical? What is its worth as a relic? Who can use it? Who wants it? Who was its original creator? Weilder? How does one control/activate its magical powers?

I always have fun with magic articles in my games. In the upcomming TRoS Campaign I think that Magic Items will be few and far between, if they ever see them.

I could tell you about the mace of Sir Crunchum de Mangley some time if you want.

Ooh... that's sweet! I am so gonna use that idea! Valamir, you are a genius!

Like the rest of you guys, I'm psyched about this new idea of Steve's (magical weapons with SA's is pure genius), but, like Sal, I need to know the weapon's history. Namely, how did an inanimate object, such as a sword, get SA's in the first place? Was there some kind of soul trapped into it? If so, how could there be a non-evil version of this type of weapon? I personally don't think of imprisoning someone's or something's soul as a good or righteous act.

Hello,

Whoops, forgot to mention Earthdawn as well, which also utilized a "history of the item" method to define magical things' ability. If I'm remembering correctly, the character actually had to make history rolls or otherwise improve certain skills in order to utilize the weapon/thing fully.

Both Earthdawn and Orkworld are, I think, required reading for this issue and already cover tons of concerns both stated here and not yet stated (but soon to show up, I'm sure).

Tony, you're leapin' the tracks a bit with your "soul" concern. The Riddle of Steel does not state, one way or another, anything about souls, and Spiritual Attributes (as written) are strictly metagame concerns, not necessarily reflecting anything in-game at all. I know from previous threads that you have a little trouble with this concept or prefer not to employ it, but at least recognize that you're projecting your own "SAs must represent something in-game" concerns into the issue, and thereby causing yourself trouble that isn't necessarily there already.

Best,
Ron

Salamander wrote: This is one that I have never been able to resist discussing in RPGs. I think that you are on the right track as far as not having so many magic items about, especially the "Noun of Verbing" types. I have a few methods I use for magic items that seem to work well for me and the players in the group I am currently in.

The first question is how did it become magical? Was it made that way by some Fey artisan? Or was it just a really good blade that seemed to absorb some of the essence of the task at hand or some similar theory?

What does it do? If it was in the hands of a brave Knight Hospitaler who fought bravely in battle, yet cared for the ill in the meantime, does it seem extra sharp (+1dam) or eager to cut the foe (-1ATN)? What about it having some unusual power to accelerate healing in some fashion(+1Dice or -1TN)? How does one know it is magical? What is its worth as a relic? Who can use it? Who wants it? Who was its original creator? Weilder? How does one control/activate its magical powers?

I always have fun with magic articles in my games. In the upcomming TRoS Campaign I think that Magic Items will be few and far between, if they ever see them.

I could tell you about the mace of Sir Crunchum de Mangley some time if you want.

Salamander wrote: Ooh... that's sweet! I am so gonna use that idea! Valamir, you are a genius!

Valamir wrote:

Salamander wrote: Ooh... that's sweet! I am so gonna use that idea! Valamir, you are a genius!

True, but in this case the idea was Steve Reich's. My genius was merely in recognizing and highlighting his genius.

Which of course means that in the real world I get all the credit and the money and he gets a brief mention in my memoirs, after having died in poverty cursing my name... ;-)

tauman wrote:

Valamir wrote:

Salamander wrote: Ooh... that's sweet! I am so gonna use that idea! Valamir, you are a genius!

True, but in this case the idea was Steve Reich's. My genius was merely in recognizing and highlighting his genius.

Which of course means that in the real world I get all the credit and the money and he gets a brief mention in my memoirs, after having died in poverty cursing my name... ;-)

The real genius was the creation of SAs--it was really only a matter of time before someone applied them to magic items...

Steve

Ron Edwards wrote: Tony, you're leapin' the tracks a bit with your "soul" concern. The Riddle of Steel does not state, one way or another, anything about souls, and Spiritual Attributes (as written) are strictly metagame concerns, not necessarily reflecting anything in-game at all. I know from previous threads that you have a little trouble with this concept or prefer not to employ it, but at least recognize that you're projecting your own "SAs must represent something in-game" concerns into the issue, and thereby causing yourself trouble that isn't necessarily there already.

Durgil raises an interseting question, exactly how did the item gain its Powers and SA(s)? That is where the history of the weapon plays a big role. I was all prepared to go on this ramble about the Mace of Sir Crunchum de Mangley and how its past was what gave it its special powers as well as placing the story behind it for the PCs to discover when they research the weapon. Imagine the party finds this article and they begin to percieve it is a magic item. Who would turn up an adventure based on trying to find out what else it can do and its origins?

I don't think the weapon needs to have a soul imprisoned in it, but the essence of a pivotal moment or a moment when greatness is achieved could be absorbed into the article. Or in short, the actions of the owner help define the item.

Mm.

Think of the SAs more as a Dramatically Appropriate Bonus, rather than something that is actually invoked.

In other words, it is Dramatically Appropriate for the Noble Paladin to fight evil. It is likewise Dramatically Appropriate for the Holy Sword of Valis to fight evil. A Drive: Fight Evil represents this Dramatic Appropriateness.

Salamander wrote: Durgil raises an interseting question, exactly how did the item gain its Powers and SA(s)? That is where the history of the weapon plays a big role. I was all prepared to go on this ramble about the Mace of Sir Crunchum de Mangley and how its past was what gave it its special powers as well as placing the story behind it for the PCs to discover when they research the weapon. Imagine the party finds this article and they begin to percieve it is a magic item. Who would turn up an adventure based on trying to find out what else it can do and its origins?

I don't think the weapon needs to have a soul imprisoned in it, but the essence of a pivotal moment or a moment when greatness is achieved could be absorbed into the article. Or in short, the actions of the owner help define the item.

Right, that pivotal moment is key. Whatever that pivotal moment was makes the object what it is. Further, you don't have to agree with the SAs of an object per se. But you'll not get the advantages if you don't. It's already in the game. Here's an example:

There is an axe called Treebreaker that was created when it was used by a legendarily large Hef warrior to fell a mighty Fey tree in a deep wood. Since that day the blade has been embued with a strength borne of stealing the life of the great tree, and it seeks ever more to do more damage to the Fey, to drink their essences. So, mechanically it's got this SA Drive: Kill Fey. Basically a character with the object just gets the SA while he's holding it. So, as long as he's killing Fey, hey, he get's bonus dice to do so.

Then you can get more twisted with it. A magic charm has a Passion: one who wears it. So as long as the SA is used to protect the character wearing it, the charm gives it's dice. But the charm also has a Drive: Kill the person who killed it's original owner. Now when you put on the Charm, you get the SA. Will you use it to kill the person? Or ignore the extra dice.

And, yes, you can even do "ego" items if you want. Basically, these things are more aware of their environment, and act as entities in that they'll ownly bestow their SAs on people who do their will. Basically this becomes a bit like a Demon in Ron's Sorcerer RPG in that the character has a relationship (potentially dysfunctional), that the character has to maintain in order to get the advantages of having the item.

Also, Ron's quite right in mentioning Earthdawn. I'd impose the most basic Earthdawn rule which is that the character doesn't get an item's power until he knows and believes it's story. Which can be learned in parts if it's a powerful thing. Thus you might learn of how the magic sword was used to slay a tribe of Gol (and hence get it's Slay Gol Drive SA), but then later you also learn that it was further enchanted in a dark rite by some weird shaman in Odeon and now also has an urge to murder innocent people. OK, now you have a bunch of dice to commit bloody murder. Do you use them? What happens when others learn of this part of the legend.

What's cool about the legend thing is that, from one perspective there's something magical in-game that ocurs upon hearing the legend. From another persepctive, however, it's just the character being inspired by the fabulous artifact, and the aura that the legend gives it for him. So basically the character has the SA, and the object is not really magic, but just inspiring the character through his belief. And, lastly, is Ron's metagame attitude which says that it's just something cool for the player to play with.

All works very well together, I think.

Mike

P.S. As an aside, the One Ring was created in part by Sauron's deciet. He'd been living with the Elves under a fair guise, and got an Elf named Celebrimbor to make the ninteen rings with his assistance. It was this deception that allowed him to link all the rings to the one he forged in Mount Doom. So, symbolically, it's Sauron's centuries of deception that are the event that causes the ring to be created. But that wouldn't have been powerful enough, alone. So Sauron poured most of himself into that ring as well, hence why he could only be destroyed by the destruction of the One Ring. So the ring has all of his SAs. Yikes.

I'd play it as simply a temptation to use SAs like Drive: Conquer 10, and worse, Drive: "Do anything as long as one convinces oneself that it's OK to do it." 15 (this was Sauron's first failing; he was a good guy who turned to the dark lord Morgoth for power). Eventually most people, especially elves like Elrond who's closely related to Celebrimbor, would be decieved by the power and become corrupt. It's gotta be worse than crack; pick it up and never put it down again. And worse, who's gonna stop ya?

Mike Holmes wrote: It's gotta be worse than crack; pick it up and never put it down again.

Brian Leybourne wrote: Thoughts?

Brian Leybourne wrote: 1) Can characters "spend" dice in an item-granted SA?

2) Do we envision any kind of compulsion by evil items here? I.E does the sword of Drive: slay innocents 5 try to make characters slay innocents at all

While I can see the idea of Will contests working, that seems to me to be against the idea of SAs leaving control in the hands of the player. I'd like to create a situation where I could get the player to decide to have the character do the evil thing. Make it his nasty choice.

That's why I like Brian's ideas. They tempt the player. Bwahhahah!.

With the other way, all the player has to do is not use the item and he's safe. Hmmm.

Mike

Also, consider your choice in SAs closely.

Not 'Kill Innocents: 3' but 'Avenge Honor: 3'. Someone insults me? They die.

Not 'Cause War: 4' but 'Bring Peace: 4'. The ultimate goal of war is peace, and until peace is achieved, then war will continue.

Not even 'Kill Fey (or Sorcerers): 5' but 'Defend Humans: 5'. They are a rival people, after all... and Sorcerers are the servants of the Betrayer...

Make SAs that will tempt players with good intentions, but that, by their nature, must almost inevitibly corrupt and twist the original purpose. Then laugh. Hard. And manically. :)

Mike Holmes wrote: Then you can get more twisted with it. A magic charm has a Passion: one who wears it. So as long as the SA is used to protect the character wearing it, the charm gives it's dice. But the charm also has a Drive: Kill the person who killed it's original owner. Now when you put on the Charm, you get the SA. Will you use it to kill the person? Or ignore the extra dice.

you could link a larger SA(Destiny) to a smaller SA(Drive), requiring the player to 'satisfy' the Drive in order to gain access to the Larger Destiny SA.

what I did was treat corrupted characters who wielded bloodthirsty cursed items as if they had rage major and bloodlust major which was fun,.
in the sa carrot stick thing you could have the number of bonus dice go down if they aren't used and if they hit zero then the pc loses his own SA points and so on until the item is either used or ditched,. To make it really tempting to use I treat thm like uber masterwork and change 3 stats not 2.

Ashren Va'Hale wrote: what I did was treat corrupted characters who wielded bloodthirsty cursed items as if they had rage major and bloodlust major which was fun,.
in the sa carrot stick thing you could have the number of bonus dice go down if they aren't used and if they hit zero then the pc loses his own SA points and so on until the item is either used or ditched,. To make it really tempting to use I treat thm like uber masterwork and change 3 stats not 2.

Or the Seneschal could keep the item's SA's a secret, only informing the players when extra dice are available to them, "You feel the sword at your hip, eager," -or- "The sword begins to sing as it clashes with your enemy's blade and you can tell that the mysterious and ancient weapon you took out of the tomb is aiding you with unnatural forces."

Love the magic item idea, think it is fabulous.

Could a player begin game with a sword, maybe a Major would be a blade with a 5 in an SA and a Minor would be 2 and the players could mayhaps feed XP into it?

Nice stuff.

Mike Holmes wrote:

Brian Leybourne wrote: Thoughts?

Um...you're evil? ;-)

Mike

It's a Sorceror who Imprisoned his immortal soul inside of a magically crafted blade.

It's a magically crafted blade, so it has a better ATN and DTN than the best sword-smiths could give it (not that much better, just -1 to all of its TNs, not just one or two.)

But it's also this GUY with SAs and motivations and freaky magical powers.

It's an NPC all by itself. :)

But I really like this idea of magic items that grant SAs. Very cool.

Another thought. Firstly IMO the weapons points should be recorded distinctly, otherwise mechanically the player could discard it and replace it with something else. Secondly, how about the player can spend the SA's, and get XP, but only for buying the same SA for themselves. They can use both simulataneously so over time the net effect increases. When the weapon is detached from its owner, however, it leaves with a level as high as the combined total for the next bearer to contend with.

So you elf-killing axe starts at 1, say, and is weilded by a user who gets 2 points of elf-slaying themselves, and the next weilder gets the the axe at elf-slaying 3.

I know that this is an old thread, but I had an idea yesterday concerning weapons with their own SA's and am wondering what the rest of you think about it. If there is a sword with some SA, like Destiny, to kill Gols with a 3, then every time the character used that weapon to attack Gols, then he would receive 3 more dice to any attack roll, but he would drop the 3 lowest rolls. For example, he attacks with 8 dice; the sword increases the pool to 11 and he keeps the 8 highest rolls. I think this way would do more damage to a Gol, but the maximun amount of damage that is possible doesn't change.

Durgil wrote: I know that this is an old thread, but I had an idea yesterday concerning weapons with their own SA's and am wondering what the rest of you think about it. If there is a sword with some SA, like Destiny, to kill Gols with a 3, then every time the character used that weapon to attack Gols, then he would receive 3 more dice to any attack roll, but he would drop the 3 lowest rolls. For example, he attacks with 8 dice; the sword increases the pool to 11 and he keeps the 8 highest rolls. I think this way would do more damage to a Gol, but the maximun amount of damage that is possible doesn't change.

Brian Leybourne wrote: ... is there a reason you want to tone the SA power of the sword down? If +3 dice seems too good, just limit it to +1 or +2. I guess what I'm saying is I don't understand why you want to limit it in this manner. Is there a reason, or do you just think that the Items-with-SA's makes them too powerful?

Brian.

Durgil wrote: I think this way would do more damage to a Gol, but the maximun amount of damage that is possible doesn't change.

Durgil wrote: taking the best (or worst) numbers of so many dice is a fairly common convention used to raise (or lower) the probabilities a bit without widening the given range. It was just an idea.

I'd like to speak to the earlier topic of how SAs are acquired by objects. Is it possible in TRoS for long periods rather than pivotal moments to imbue an artifact with SAs?

Let's say you have a ruling family in power for a thousand years. For the entire span of that thousand years, their headsman uses a cermonial longaxe to deliver justice to those convicted of treason. When that longaxe falls into the hands of PCs, could it have a Drive: Dispense Justice or Drive: Kill Enemies of Family X?

Sounds like a fantastic idea, Jason.

Brian.

Hmm. Thinking about how these artifacts acquire their powers and about their histories brought to my mind the idea that noteworthy artifacts might during their time gain the SAs of their owner(s).

Also, perhaps it works the other way 'round as well, with characters slowly gaining the SAs of the artifact's previous ruler.

So, when the nigh legendary greatsword wielded by Fario the Fair in killing infidels during the Ten Years of Red Sands is found by in the ancient ruins by the new regency's chief archeologist, it's new owner will slowly find himself feeling the righteous fury of Fario because for all those long years the sword had felt the passion of that dark paladin and had slowly become imbued with it. Now, the old hatred simmers in that cold steel and finds willing flesh, turning its new owner's thoughts on hatred for those who so long ago had come to these lands as invaders .. those who now rule it as lords.

Anyway, I think it makes for great and personal story fodder -- well, just like the SAs in general.

- Joachim Buchert -

Sounds like the Ruling Ring of TLotR, Joachim.

heres some thoughts for you, I like the idea of a sword or item being imbued with magic in the form of SA's, but the question is how does a chracter find or aquire such a weapon, well, after careful thought I figured the talisman rules would work great.

The major magic weapon/item (talisman) gift would give you a SA with a value of 2 and minor would give it a value of 1... or alternately if you wish to risk the power being unleashed the major gift can have a total of 2 sa's (drive + destiny) while the minor would only have 1 sa (drive only).

The PC or the senechal would have to describe the origin of the item with the GM defining the SA's most likely. this would be a really fun gift to give players and the sa's dont need to be combat related, like a sword of truth that adds dice to finding out secrets and lies.... that kind of thing... I think I will make this a house rule.