I purchased Paladin a week or so ago, but finally got down to printing it out and reading it this week. Now, this goes to design specifically.

Write /more/.

Paladin is 26 pages long.

Write /more/

My superhero rpg--Hearts and Souls is near 50 pages, and I've not yet managed to sit down and confer all my notes on the settings, nor rewritten it to improve readability and clarity. But if I don't have at least 100 pages, I'm not selling it. Because, less than that /really isn't enough/ to be asking money for.


This isn't to say the quality of Paladin is lacking. Or many other fine games (Otherkind, Inspectres) but please, if you want to sell to me--and most the gamers I know personally, and those like them. Write /more/.

It doesn't have to be rules, either, but examples, sample settings, full settings.

Cartoon Action Hour was 190ish pages and is going to be more.

Talislanta's rules could probably fit 26 pages. Its nearly 500 pages long.

I downloaded another game--Metalface which can be had for free, its rules take up around the same number of pages as Paladin in entirety but the main rulebook is 92 pages, with a Tech supplement packed with the DL that is another 32.

Write more.

You /can/ do it. I know Mr. Nixon is certianly capable of it, but to me 26 pages is a /really good start/ not a "ready to sell game".

Now this is my opinion, and I'm sure it will be disputed (Why you don't need that much to have a complete RPG!) well of course not, I could write an RPG on a notecard. But just because I can do a thing, does not mean I should publish it and ask for money for it.

Paladin is, by the way, a really really good /start/ but I'd like to have seen more--maybe a long sample adventure, more example settings. Or heck 100 pages of art. Something to justify the paying of the amount of money I did.

Make me feel like giving you money for your /work/ not just your ideas.

God help me, I can't resist ...

If I understand your rant correctly, you're not concerned that quality is lacking (you've said it isn't), but rather than quantity is?

What precisely is the problem here?

Further, why is it a problem for you to pay a meager $6 for an idea and some-but-not-enough work?

What I'm getting at is this: You've said that you and others you know aren't willing to spend $6 because you want more "examples, sample settings, full settings."

Ask yourself this. Is the lack of page count making you uncomfortable because RPGs just should have 100+ pages because they always have? What rational reason do you have for demanding "more" stuff, whatever it is, in a published product (PDF or print)?

I'm concerned that you're demanding more because that's what "we've always done in this hobby." That's a pretty hollow reason to do it. If the game is complete, if it brings you any level of enjoyment in play, why is it a problem at all that the thing is below 100 pp.?

Paladin is worth $6 bucks at 26 pp. My own Dust Devils is, I believe, worth $6 for the PDF, and worth $10 for the print edition. I've sold it to stores who offer it for $12. I still think that's a fair price.

It's 36 pages long. They're small pages. But, oh, what pages! I really can't see how the book could/should expand to, say, 96. The game's all there. I might be able to at a dozen pages or so of revision and examples, but I don't think it's necessary.

So, in short, I want to know more about why your calling for thicker games, especially when -- by your own acount -- the games are quite satisfactory in what they do offer.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

That's just it, it isn't satisfactory. It's too short, it lacks internal support (that is substantitive support for its primary setting more detailed support on its premise of light vs dark and corruption.)

It's not that RPG's have to be 100 pages or greater, its that /if they want at least 6 dollars from me/ they should be 100 pages. (Really I'd probably been fine with 80 or so for 6.00 ) but frankly it comes of has lazy to me.

A good idea is not in an of itself is not something I desire to purchase.

LordX wrote: Brevity is the soul of wit.

So, let's see. If a game "should be" 100 pages to earn $6 from you, then you'd be willing to buy a 26 page game for about $1.50. Right? Just trying to get the math straight. Or is the curve not linear? I need the formula so I can ensure that the next game I write is of the proper length for the amount that I charge.

Mike

Is /24 pages/ all the effort your going to put into a game?

Sidhain wrote:
How much do you pay for wit these days?

Just my two cents...
I don't want much setting...there are already several different examples.
That's what I'm there for as a GM. Especially for Paladin. (and the Player/group input on things)

I never use pre-made settings, aside from perhaps using the building Stronghold in the old Champions game.

Its almost no money, for an engine that generates temptation.

Inspectres also has no setting etc... its also an engine for creating its style of play.

Clinton has already said he'd like to do an update, which will probably revisit the 'how it plays' areas, smoothing out organization and mechanics....and who knows maybe some of the intriguing spins people have put on it (love that new Peter Paladin/Little Paladin idea)... might cost more when its done too.

Still for the money it can't be beat, hell even my 4 color supers playtest saw the mechanics leading to the future "Doughboy- the Rise of the Dark Loaf".
Plus, It can set a bad business example to start giving away games that could be sold.

Worth it for me...

Tim,

You know I respect you as a designer and a gamer... but... I gotta completely disagree.

If a game is worth playing, it's worth asking money for. It doesn't matter how long it is. It matters how good it is, and how much work the designer put into it. I know for a fact that Clinton put a ton of work into Paladin. I watched him do it.

A small page count is not indicative of the quality of the game. It also does not indicate the amount of work that went into that game. Quite the contrary, often a good deal of work goes into finding the most concise, coherent way of presentation. A small page count is a goal to be worked for! I've never understood the idea that the more pages a game is, the more money should be asked for it. I can't understand why the market even allows thick games onto store shelves.

One of the biggest things indie designers do is to try and get away from the idea that word counts are important, that quantity is quality. People typically come here precisely *because* they're sick of pages and pages of unnecessary information that they'll probably never use and will definitely never remember.

Didn't someone have a slogan a while back?

"Help fight global deforestation - play Indie RPGs!"

Pag,

That's just it, show me the effort? All I can do in judging effort is /how much is there/, even quality isn't always the result of effort.


I purchased two games the same day--Paladin and Metalface, yes, purchased. Metalface is available free by the way (I managed to find a faulty link to the game that asked for payment--RPGnow's error)

Now did I mind paying for it? No because its 92 page long rulebook, that comes available with a 32 page Tech Supplement--this person spent /effort/ writing this game, its visible in the game.

Do I think that the Clinton R. Nixon worked less hard at his game than the author of Metalface--no.

But to all appearances it doesn't look like he spent as much time at working that hard.

I can only judge from the finished product after all.

I'm not interested in Indie games because "Indie" is cool.
I'm not interested them because they are brilliant. I'm interested in them because I want good games to play /for the money I spend/. And there are lots of good games that aren't brilliant, but succeed at what they do, by supporting the GM, by supporting the players with information

It seems to me this could go in Mike imponderables threads

How much is too much/ too little when writing a RPG?

For PDF that I'll be printing out...I vote for less whenever possible.

I also vote for at least one PDF version that sacrifices style for lower ink usage. (The Window RPG printout drove me crazy this way..Black pages look cool on screen, not as $$$ in ink printing out on my paper)

Sidhain wrote: I purchased Paladin a week or so ago, but finally got down to printing it out and reading it this week. Now, this goes to design specifically.

Write /more/.

Paladin is 26 pages long.

Write /more/

• I have not seen Paladin, although I've heard good things about it.
• No one would accuse Multiverser of being too short.


With those disclaimers made....

A game needs to be as long as it needs to be.

One of our current projects has as its goal the creation of an RPG whose rules are not longer than those for Monopoly or similar board games--including setting, character generation, and play. The idea is that rules length is one of the obstacles to entry into the hobby. We recognize quite clearly that no one is going to read the Multiverser Referee's Rules unless they already have a desire to play the game. There is thus inherent value in creating a rules system that is short, because people who have no idea as yet what a role playing game is will only discover if they can get involved in it quickly.

I understand that most people get into this hobby because someone they know who plays invites them to a game. That was not my experience. I heard about D&D from non-gaming sources, and tracked down the basic set to start playing. I am not certain whether I would have started playing had it been necessary for me to read the DMG and PH all the way through before starting. That blue book was, I think, under a hundred pages (I can't find my copy at the moment, so I don't know for certain).

There is certainly something to be said for a longer game. Multiverser provides everything you would need to play in one book, and seriously you would never actually need to buy another book. People complain about that. They think we should sell it in several smaller books that would cost more in total but could be acquired in installments. (As an aside, what do people here think about that?)

Obviously, some games are more demanding of the referee and the players than others--or perhaps demanding in different ways. Games like D&D and Multiverser, even with simple core mechanics, have something of a high learning curve: you have to know how to find what you need to know when you need to know it. Other games expect much more from the referee or players in terms of filling in the gaps. It is partly a matter of preference; it is not just a matter of preference.

A game needs to be as long as it needs to be. It does not need to have material that is not necessary; it needs to contain everything that is necessary. This is the essential point. Make it long enough, but not too long.

Tim, I sympathize. I would be surprised to find a "complete role playing game" in a document that was only twenty-six pages long; and if I had to print it myself and it still cost six dollars, I might think it overpriced--might, mind you, because it still will depend on whether it really was a complete game, that is, whether for six dollars I really got everything I really needed, and was happy with that. But the problem doesn't seem to be the length (you admit that games can be so short, I think); it isn't necessarily the price (if it were already printed, you'd probably have to pay so much for it). It's that you, personally, expect a $6 PDF to be longer. Hey, for that money, I think I would expect more pages, if the author didn't have to pay for paper. But that's not really the point, I think.

Perhaps the solution isn't that game writers have to write longer games. Perhaps it's just that those who sell PDF versions of games have to do these things:

• Make it clear how many pages the game is, and what it does and does not contain;
• Persuade us that it's worth whatever the asking price is at that size.


If you knew before you bought it that Paladin was only twenty-six pages, probably you would not have purchased it, and Clinton would have lost the sale--but then, you wouldn't be here complaining about it either, and he wouldn't have gotten the bad publicity.

--M. J. Young

I agree wholeheartedly with Iago.

But, it occurs to me that Bob is correct. We're talking about a personal standard here. My personal standard honestly can't imagine being upset because a game is too short. I say again, if a game works and is fun to play, it's worth paying money for. This is, in the most literal possible way, my philosophy when buying a game.

The attribute that Tim is complaining about (small page counts) is something that I go out of my way to find. If a game has too many pages, my most likely reaction is "too much crap." Without sorrow, the game goes back on the shelf, or the web site is closed down.

(Professional quality layout and artwork is actually more likely to siphon money out of my wallet. Elfs is a $10 game, but it's sure not a $10 PDF. :)

I don't know how much James plans on asking for The Questing Beast, but will I be upset that he's charging for it because it's only 32 pages? No! My opinion is that TQB is one of the top ten (maybe top five) games out there. It's worth $10 if he asks that. Maybe even $15, or $20, for a printed version. That James has manged to focus that kind of quality into a text that's under 50 pages *increases* the worth in my eyes. It doesn't diminish it!

I /have/ Attention Deficit Disorder. My attention span is probably also pretty short. But, I could get a comic book for 2.95 and /it/ have more non advertisement pages.

Sidhain wrote: I /have/ Attention Deficit Disorder. My attention span is probably also pretty short. But, I could get a comic book for 2.95 and /it/ have more non advertisement pages.

Tim,

Here's a challenge, because I'll admit your point falls flat with me.

Look at Paladin, or InSpectres, or Trollbabe (my pick - best game I've ever played), or any other indie game. Look at the Pool for a real challenge.

Then, tell me how you'd expand each to 100 pages.

If you can meet the challenge well, you just might change my mind. I'm in the middle of writing an extremely setting-heavy game, and yet it won't go past 64 pages. If you convince me otherwise, I might double that.

Iago, I advocate what I refer to as FIFO games--Fast in Fast out, that is easy to pick up and run in a single afternoons reading, but also that also return stasfactory results for an enjoyable play session. You'd think that Paladin is a FIFO.

BUt it isn't. It frankly doesn't provide enough information to allow a GM/Player to get going /and keep them going/ and supporting them the whole time.

I once I think refereed to Inspectres as Beer and Pretzals game, it wasn't to diminish the game, nor is this complaing meant to diminish Paladin--I just /want/ more. They /deserve/ more, but not in bits and peices. The thing is, games this short, just don't provide GM's and players enough to let them run with the ball, outside of very very limited number of gamers.

I /can/ use it, but no one I know who runs games locally could. They need more support. Believe it or not, but there are people out there who /need/ adventures, settings, and the like.


Which is the best way to serve people who play RPG's--to write games that lack information they might need.

Or write games that have information they can drop if they don't need it?

Sidhain wrote: Iago, I advocate what I refer to as FIFO games--Fast in Fast out, that is easy to pick up and run in a single afternoons reading, but also that also return stasfactory results for an enjoyable play session. You'd think that Paladin is a FIFO.

BUt it isn't. It frankly doesn't provide enough information to allow a GM/Player to get going /and keep them going/ and supporting them the whole time.

Aha! Tim, I think I see where you're coming from a bit better now. The problem is that not every game is suitable for every player.

You see, Paladin was specifically designed to provide a certain kind of play dealing with a specific set of issues... to be used in whatever setting the GM and players feel like playing in, right at that moment.

A lot of indie games are like that. They have specific play goals. Once they meet those goals, they stop. This is a core idea of GNS. Games that try to service all goals at once end up being bloated and disfunctional.

Complaining that your local gamers would have trouble playing Paladin is sort of like complaining that your off-road vehicle has trouble in the Indy 500. It's designed for a specific experience. Why complain that it doesn't work when doing something it was never intended to be used for?

I think what made the rpgs of old (back 20 years ago) fun where how quick and dirty they were.

As far as the .pdf game I am designing it will be 100 pages, but will not have anything that isn't needed.

Sidhain wrote:
Write /more/.

Paladin is 26 pages long.

Write /more/

Hey Tim,

Can I get a clarification on your issue?

Here the issue is:

BUt it isn't. It frankly doesn't provide enough information to allow a GM/Player to get going /and keep them going/ and supporting them the whole time.

I /can/ use it, but no one I know who runs games locally could. They need more support. Believe it or not, but there are people out there who /need/ adventures, settings, and the like

LordX wrote: Disregarding Paladin, would you be adverse to spending $6 for a fully playable 32 page PDF containing merely system and chargen if there were support PDF products (setting, adventures, etc) available for free download?

When Ralph wrote Universalis, it went about 75 pages, IIRC. We then trimmed that down to about half that. Because so much of what was in there was just not pertinent to learning the rules, understanding the basic concepts, and getting into play. Not that it wasn't interesting stuff, just that we thought that the book (now an 86 page sorta paperback sized thing) was better without it.

Yeah, that's right, Ralph wrote twice what's in there now, and we decided not to include half of it. We could have, and I suppose that some people would think it was a better book for doing so, just because the word count was larger. But we made our decision and I think that the product stands for itself.

Anyhow, Ralph did post most of the stuff that was cut to the website. It's available for free to anyone to download. So, isn't that support part of the product? As I've said, it could have gone into the book.

The point is that Clinton supports his games well. And that's worth the price of admission alone. Yes, a comic book only costs $2.95. How many role-playing sessions can you get out of a comic book? For less than the price of admission to a movie, you are getting a complete game that can provide endless hours of fun, along with a lifetime of tech support by the designer himself.

Sounds like a deal to me.

But, hey, if the only way you can judge the quality of a game is by page count, then by all means check the page count first. On the page where you purchase Paladin it says:

Paladin: A 27-page PDF (over 11,000 words) complete game.

Fascinating. For all the references to "imponderables" and "differences of opinion" and whatnot, the score currently stands at Tim vs. Everyone Else. Okay, I admit it, I haven't read Paladin, but in the abstract I agree with Tim. I like long.

Certainly, a really elegant and compressed document can cover a lot of ground in 25 pages, and a really wasteful one can cover exactly the same ground in 200 pages. What are the chances? How many RPGs can I think of that are really elegant and compressed, written in a precise and compact style that immediately gets to the point and covers exactly and only what it needs to? Er... um.... kill puppies is a pretty good example... er... are there actually a lot of others? My assumption before I buy a game is that it's not particularly dense, not particularly compressed, not particularly well written, and that thus its merits (which may well be many) lie elsewhere. At any rate, ranking texts purely on number of sheets, for good or ill, strikes me as essentially equivalent to judging a book by its cover -- which works in this industry, I note, but anyway...

So what's not in a 25-page game? Setting, probably. Extensive background material. Sample adventures, sample NPCs, etc. Okay, so do you consider such things inherently worthless, a waste of money, contributions to deforestation? Don't they have value, at least potentially? So how can you know in advance that a 25-page book is better than a 100-page one?

In addition, I'm really deeply surprised to hear that the Forge crew all seem to dislike art and visuals. Really? Descriptions thereof seem to crop up regularly in comments about games -- good, bad, indifferent, but a major concern. Well, art takes space. And I've heard it said again and again that every game needs a really attractive character sheet. What happened to that?

It seems to me that the criticisms of Tim's point of view may boil down to the fact that a lot of people like Paladin, and Clinton. M.J. talks about "bad publicity," in fact. But (1) no Forge person is apparently going to avoid the game on Tim's sayso, and (2) Clinton's game has just gotten an entire thread to itself. This is bad publicity?

The reality, I think, is that Tim's criticism has hit a nerve, because it's something many people are on record as agreeing with: lots of art, cool stuff, and so forth. He just put it bluntly and turned it around at a local fave.

For the record, I think The Pool makes a great example: it's short, and it's free. If you want me to pay money for it, I want to know why, and just having a cool mechanic isn't enough for me. Maybe it is for you, but I want some setting, some background, some stuff to go with the game. I want to be able to sit down and read it, and I want it to be readable. Does that take 100 pages? Perhaps. Would I read it happily if it were a great read at 1,000? Yes.

I'm actually going to come in and sort of agree with Tim. Sort of.

The length of a game book often determines how long I'll play it. Weird, but true. I played Pendragon, D&D, WFRP, TROS, and GURPS all for months and months. I've played Inspectres probably 6 times, Dust Devils once, Little Fears once, Sorcerer 4 times, Octane once. I love all of these games--I don't consider a dime spent on them as wasted. There's something about size that says "professional" or "complete." I would have happily read another 75 pages of Paladin. I would have liked 10 more pages of Inspectres. OctaNe was just right in length as far as text goes.

I think it's partially an issue of legitimacy. 128 pages (more or less) is industry standard for a paperback supplement. Core rule books are twice that, generally. These are expectations of professional products, and most indie games aren't doing that. Do they need to? Well, depends. If we want our games to be taken seriously, they generally need to be longer. That length needs to be useful information--not just filler--but it ought to be there if we're trying to stand next to bigger games. If.

I, too, would have liked more examples from play in Paladin, a bit of fiction that really showed the reader the kind of moral dilemma that makes the game great, and an appendix with all the tables gathered together. That's maybe 10-5 more pages, tops. (I liked it so much I'd keep going for 100, but I don't know what could go in there without changing Clinton's vision). BUT Paladin is, as others have said, not trying to do a lot of the things that we expect from "industry" games.

I wish that Dust Devils had a bunch of research and historical notes from the *real* old west, since all my other game books have is zombies and boot hill...Dust Devils filled my every Wild-West need but what the wild west really was (or at least how to re-create the literature). Setting? I suppose. The game assumes a lot, and most of us that want to run a solid long-term DD game are going to spend a lot of time at the library and in the movie store. The book *could* save us that time...but I'm okay that it didn't. It's still a great game.

Basically, in both cases, I'm afraid to run the game because the brevity of the book left me feeling like it was all very new territory even after reading it all twice. But I was ready to play Pendragon half way through the book, because I'd been with it so long.

To finish my rambling...

I think that indie-games are created with different purposes in mind, but they're also generally less professional (hence "indie?"). I would pay for added art, color text, examples, adventures, and source material (I could care less about "orginal" setting, though). I would pay $20 for an online PDF if it was 128+ pages and featured art and the whole package. I often wish I could. I'll pay $6 for Dust Devils, and know that I got $6 bucks worth. If we want more recognition, we have to recognize the expectations of our customers and especially of our potential customers. If.

Jake

clehrich wrote: So what's not in a 25-page game? Setting, probably. Extensive background material. Sample adventures, sample NPCs, etc. Okay, so do you consider such things inherently worthless, a waste of money, contributions to deforestation? Don't they have value, at least potentially? So how can you know in advance that a 25-page book is better than a 100-page one?

Pag: No, it has nothing /at/ all to do with GNS really. I've seen well supported and buff N games and sparse and poor S and G games.

GNS is not the point.



Clinton: I'm not familiar (nor interested in Trollbabe so I've little idea how to fix it), as for the Pool its free. I expect a lot less from a free game, and frankly will never use the Pool because its not in anyway useful to me as a gamer.

On the other hand Otherkind /was/, it's short, and also free.


Now back to Paladin: I'm not talking about mechanism, rules, I'm talking strictly about suporting the style of game that it purports to be--as it stands from my reading of the game, its a Heartbreaker---in the worst sense. You took a D&Dism and applied to a concept, tried to make it "better" isn't that what a Heartbreaker is? One of the most definitive fantasy works dealing with Paladins is Elizabeth Moon's Deeds of Paksenarrion Trilogy--it is very D&D esque itself, so that's not to say you can't begin there. But its where you end.

Paladin for example mentions both Star Wars and Buffy--yet offers little or no handling of Luke (as portrayed in the Dark Empire, Timothy Zahn books--admittedly may be too far off "canon") nor does it provide ways of handling Faith per se--she's got a different code than Buffy yet the same powers--its subtly different because you don't seem to address how to handlte these two important things:

Temptation

and

Corruption


How does one (a player or GM) play out/address challenges to ones code--if your game is only about Hack and slashing then it handles it just fine, but if it really is addressing the challenge of portraying moral absolutism and making it interesting then you need support material--even if its just suggestions on ways to allow players and GM's to portray playing the characters codes as /hard./

Corruption: Both Luke, and Faith fall a bit towards evil but both appearently work towards redemption --so how do you address evil not changing its spots, but changing /from/ evil. Even in an absolute black and white world, redemption should be possible.

How about examples like this: Paladin Jol arrive sin a town, he sense a great and terrible dark animus, and hunt its down, and discovers the towns elder, a well respected leader has murdered and become a "Witch" now the Witch is protective of his town, and in fact that how he became evil--he justified to himself the murders as protecting the town. He is well loved and respected though has become a hermit in the last few months (because of the physical marks), now he has family people who are still good, and friends who are good wo misguidedly protect him--how does a Paladin handle this? Whacking him with a sword? Surely your game is meant for something more than an a flimsy excuse to kill things?

You've got a setting--How does one become a Paladin? How does one be selected to join? What is the training like?

None of that is "rules" but they are details that can impact play--if each Paladin serves as an apprentice for a year you create certian play hooks, ties to a mentor. If they are trained in huge martial arts style classes you create another setting dynamic that gives a GM or player room to explore.

It's not /mechanisms/ as I mentioned but support for the style of play the game posits.



Iago:

Is it hard for you to ignore material that is there? I know many superhero gamers who write their own settings with their games, but they haven't found the fact that settings are included some great hnderence to that. I'm just wondering why you can't ignore it like they. It is much harder for people to create something that isn't there, in my experience, than simply ignoring what is there.

I'd rather read 6 good pages that 100 bad ones. And as Derek Guder said, "RPG writing is all about using long sentences to state the obvious."

You want length, read a book.

- J

Tim brought this up on the Christian Gamers Guild email group and I thought the repsponse I wrote him there might bear repeating here:

Sidhain said:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jonathan Nichol"
> To: <ChristianGamersGuild@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [CGG] Pardon me, I must rant aka "So I got Paladin RPG"
>
>> Just a quick note:
>>
>> I bought The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchausen by Hogshead
>> Publishing. It's only 24 pages long and the actual rules fit on one
>> page. Did I feel ripped off? A little bit...until I actually played
>> the game. The book was totally worth it in my opinion.
>>
>> I haven't bought Paladin but try the game out and then tell us if it
>> was worth it or not.
>
> One: That was already printed out right? (so your not adding toner/ink
> and paper on top of that)

True, and it did have a nice color cardstock cover. However, 24 pages of
ink and paper doesn't cost much.
>
> Two: How much did you pay for it? When I looked at it it was going for
> 5.95 ish?

I paid $6.95 which is the MSRP. I checked RPGNow and it looks like
Paladin is selling for $6.00 so I think the page count/price is
comparable.
>
> And three: It's really not the money I paid for it, I paid for Metalface
> becaus RPGnow had a faulty link, and come to find out you can actually
> get it for free? Am I one whit upset about paying for something I could
> have had free? No, not in this case because I /feel/ I got what I paid
> for.

This is what my point was about. It doesn't matter how many pages you
got. What matters is the enjoyment you got out of it for the price. If
you never play the game, the only enjoyment you'll get out of it is
reading it and 29 pages isn't much reading enjoyment compared to 128 pages
(assuming comparably written material).

However, if you play the game, you may get a lot more enjoyment out of 29
pages than you would from 128 pages which was the case with me and the
Baron Munchausen. Baron was an enjoyable read but there was only 24
pages. However, the gameplay made it worth more than a 128 page book to
me.

Please, play the game and then tell us whether you feel it needed more
pages or not. Unless you bought the game to only read, I don't feel you
have a legitimate complaint saying you got ripped off if you've never
played it.

How many RPGs can I think of that are really elegant and compressed, written in a precise and compact style that immediately gets to the point and covers exactly and only what it needs to? Er... um.... kill puppies is a pretty good example... er... are there actually a lot of others?

Clehric (I think) wrote: How many RPGs can I think of that are really elegant and compressed, written in a precise and compact style that immediately gets to the point and covers exactly and only what it needs to? Er... um.... kill puppies is a pretty good example... er... are there actually a lot of others?

For the record, I think The Pool makes a great example: it's short, and it's free. If you want me to pay money for it, I want to know why...

While I posted the message on the games of old I agree with Tim on this point.

For me I like to have lots of information, background, etc when I buy a game. The information could easily be added to the game and read by those who want to read it and ignored by those who don't.

Paladin, for example is a game I wouldn't buy. Why? Because 25 pages at $6 is roughly .19 a page. That is an expensive page count.

The indie rpgs that are short want my money, but at 25 pages I don't get the impression that the designer put much effort into the game. For me a short game gives me the impression of a designer who threw something together really quickly in order to make money.

As a designer (and a gamer) I do look at page count. I want my money's worth.

Sidhain wrote: Iago:

Is it hard for you to ignore material that is there? I know many superhero gamers who write their own settings with their games, but they haven't found the fact that settings are included some great hnderence to that. I'm just wondering why you can't ignore it like they. It is much harder for people to create something that isn't there, in my experience, than simply ignoring what is there.

Paganini wrote: I like art and visuals. Like I said, good layout and design is a major selling point for me. Not sure where Clehric got the idea that indie gamers don't like art.

Something to think about:

I've been looking at the 1980s RPGs that I loved the most as an adolescent, and I've been struck by the fact that they are, almost universally, really, really SHORT when compared to the 256+ page tomes of today.

Star Frontiers: 32-page basic rules. 64-page Expanded Rules.

Chill (the Pacesetter edition): 64-page rulebook, 32-page monster book.

Gangbusters: 64-page rulebook.

Boot Hill (first edition): 32-page rulebook.

...and these were enough for me to play for YEARS.

I'm thinking that getting back to brevity is the way to go.

GMS

GMSkarka wrote: Something to think about:

I've been looking at the 1980s RPGs that I loved the most as an adolescent, and I've been struck by the fact that they are, almost universally, really, really SHORT when compared to the 256+ page tomes of today.

Star Frontiers: 32-page basic rules. 64-page Expanded Rules.

Chill (the Pacesetter edition): 64-page rulebook, 32-page monster book.

Gangbusters: 64-page rulebook.

Boot Hill (first edition): 32-page rulebook.

...and these were enough for me to play for YEARS.

I'm thinking that getting back to brevity is the way to go.

GMS

Wow, I saw GMS and thought, "Oh, nooo. He's going to say that length is important!" After all he's produced some pretty substantial games, himself. Underworld goes 163 pages.

Shoulda known that he's smarter than that.


Metamorphosis Alpha, 30 pages

Gamma World, 54 pages

Villains and Vigilantes, 48 pages

Mike

Ha! I was going to post this exact thing once I got back home and could count them up. I'd bet money you could put most of the FGU games on that list also. Where does The Fantasy Trip clock in at?

I don't get the impression that the designer put much effort into the game. For me a short game gives me the impression of a designer who threw something together really quickly in order to make money.

As a designer (and a gamer) I do look at page count. I want my money's worth.

Valamir wrote: Where does The Fantasy Trip clock in at?

Paganini wrote: Jake:

I can't believe what I'm hearing. You're saying that indie-designers need to write longer games to be legitimized? Isn't one of our main goals here to change market perceptions to legitimize our games and de-legitimize corporate monoliths?

Isn't one of our main goals here to change market perceptions to legitimize our games and de-legitimize corporate monoliths?

Jared wrote: I'd rather read 6 good pages that 100 bad ones.

Valamir wrote: Do you really mean to imply that on the basis of page count alone you'd be inclined to assume that those games were just "thrown together really quickly in order to make money" if you saw them for the first time offered for sale?

I'm not against Tim or folks who say that indie-rpgs are too short. I'm asking a legitimate question:

What is missing, what do you feel needs to be added, and why?

If its simply page count for "legitimacy reasons" or because it's expected, that's not a good enough answer.

If its content that would assist in playing, that's a fine answer and what content is that so folks can provide it?

Chris

Bankuei wrote: I'm not against Tim or folks who say that indie-rpgs are too short. I'm asking a legitimate question:

What is missing, what do you feel needs to be added, and why?

If its simply page count for "legitimacy reasons" or because it's expected, that's not a good enough answer.

If its content that would assist in playing, that's a fine answer and what content is that so folks can provide it?

Chris

Ryan Wynne wrote:

Valamir wrote: Do you really mean to imply that on the basis of page count alone you'd be inclined to assume that those games were just "thrown together really quickly in order to make money" if you saw them for the first time offered for sale?

What I am saying is, when I see a game that is $6-10 and 25-35 pages I won't give them a look because I don't think I am getting my money's worth.

If a .pdf game is going to be priced at $6-10 it better have at least 100 pages or it won't get my money (And I am looking for .pdf games over the traditional store bought games).

Background, Ideas for game master, etc. Perhaps even an sample adventure.

Yep.

I mean what ever happened to word of mouth and reviews, etc?

I mean if a friend of yours told you that the game was great, but then you heard that it was only 27 pages, would you assume that your friend was wrong? That there just couldn't be anything that could go on 27 pages that could be worth six measly bucks?

Not a mindset I can understand. I can't see length as being anything but a third or fourth tier criteria for purchase.


Hey, look there's a game here called deadEarth. Wow, it's like Gamma World, but more "realistic" (or so the advertising tells me), and hey, look, it's only $12 dollars for an absolutely huge manual. Well, better run right out and buy that baby.

Well, there are a couple of reviews that aren't so flattering about it. But I'm sure it's a great game anyhow. I mean with all that data on the effects of radiation, how could it be other than great!

Mike

Bankuei wrote:
Ideas for gamemaster? Do you mean advice on how to run it? Ways to construct adventures? Can anyone give some specifics?

Chris

Valamir wrote:
But that's just what I'm asking. Are you saying you wouldn't get your money's worth from Villains and Vigilantes? From Met Alpha? From Boot Hill? I'm pretty sure these all cost in excess of $10 when initially released (and probably substantially more to pick up at auction today) yet are some of the definitive works of the hobby.

Valamir wrote: Are you saying that when these came out you would have passed on them because they're too short and you wouldn't have gotten your money's worth? If so, I'm saying you'd have missed out on some of the greatest games of all time. Which should go along way to PROVING that page count as a measure of quality is a highly unreliable standard.

Valamir wrote: The question shouldn't be price per page that you paid. But rather price per hour of enjoyment.

Mike Holmes wrote: I mean if a friend of yours told you that the game was great, but then you heard that it was only 27 pages, would you assume that your friend was wrong? That there just couldn't be anything that could go on 27 pages that could be worth six measly bucks?

Mike Holmes wrote: Not a mindset I can understand. I can't see length as being anything but a third or fourth tier criteria for purchase.

Mike

Hello,

Folks, the Forge is not a place merely for comparing opinions. I regard this activity much in the same way I regard comparing, say, skin lesions.

This thread did pose some very good questions, and here and there throughout it, there are some well-reasoned points of debate or inquiry.

I ask anyone who's interested in following up on these things to begin new threads, using quotes as starting points. This thread, however, is now closed.

Newcomers to the Forge, please be aware that when I close a thread, it's not to be posted to again. Thanks.

Best,
Ron

Funny that, I haven't heard the same complaint about mainstream rpgs, because I've got two boxes of books, most of which lack GM advice completely, or give little adventure material. Rifts, Warhammmer Fantasy Roleplay, GURPS, Shadowrun...

Nope, I think the issue is raw cash to page count here...Unless someone can give me a concrete example of a difference between indie stuff and mainstream games that is quality otherwise, I'm going to assume that this is the issue whether folks want to own up to it or not.

Let's look at the numbers here: Standard writers earn about 10 cents to the word. Rpg writers earn somewhere around 2 cents or less. 11,000 words x 2=22,000 cents or 220 dollars that Clinton should be earning somewhere along the line. That's selling, oh, 22 copies(how're you doing Clinton?) If he was being paid by full standards, that'd be: 1100 dollars, or 110 copies, which seems like a good, but still possible number for him to reach in terms of sales.

But lets not dismiss this line of discussion completely. Let's accept that folks do in fact, make sales judgements based off of page count. What page count is acceptable, what page count is optimum for sales? If you did need to fill out another 60-80 pages, what is the best(customer satisfaction, easy to do) way to do it?

I know several other companies use splats, monsters, characters, item lists and skill lists. Would Donjon sell better if it had 30 pages of example characters/classes and another 30 pages of monsters, and 3 more adventures?

Chris

Chris clearly cross-posted with me, so that's all right.

No one else post again to this thread, please.

Best,
Ron

Jake Norwood wrote: Hope that clears things up.

Locked now. Shame on you, Nathan.

Best,
Ron