I like miniatures. And game cards with cool artwork. And dungeon floor-plans. And actual dungeon / landscape layouts.

I don't typically like your standard fantasy wargame, or your standard skirmish level RPG (T&T, BD&D, D&D Adventure Game, Hero Quest). I find them tedious - the mathematical operations required draw focus away from the shared imagining and make all situations similar. This repitition arises because the main game activities performed by the players are mathematical in nature and do not differ from encounter to encounter, regardless of the flavor text the GM provides, differing descriptions of environment, and so on.

So, the question for discussion is, can Exploration of Color be achieved in such a way that actual, physical props like those mentioned above are a focal point of play without being counters for arbitrarily repetitive math? What prop-focused game activities could the mathematical operations be replaced with?

See, I've got all these Hero Quest figures, trees, buildings, and really cool looking fantasy props. I'd like to have something more to do with them than building dioramas. I'd like to have a social activity that builds off the "cool" factor of the color the props provide. Ideally this would be something I could do with my gaming buddies - guys I play RISK with - who are not necessarily into RPGs. Anyone have any ideas?

Hey P:

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Are you talking about playing a game like Dust Devils or octaNe with minis and how it would affect the game?

A minis line for octaNe. That would be so rad.

Matt Wilson wrote: Hey P:

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Are you talking about playing a game like Dust Devils or octaNe with minis and how it would affect the game?

A minis line for octaNe. That would be so rad.

Ah, but Donjon does have minis rules, if a bit disdainful of actual pewter minis themselves. See page 34.

I don't know what would make minis important otherwise, at least not without changing the game in some way.

Hey Nathan,

Just glue clicky bases to the minis and be done with it. ;)

Seriously though, your mention of Risk gave me an idea. Have you considered using the minis as General or Hero type figures where their presence increases the capabilities of the armies that occupy the same space? The minis themselves could have special powers unique to each mini that could be used to spice up the game. I'm having flashbacks of chess games where we used the Nightmare Chess card decks from SJG.

How about using those dungeon layouts as Risk boards? You could battle it out with minis instead of those little plastic pieces. I keep using Risk as an example, but the same concepts should be applicable to a wide variety of games.

As for new ways to employ visual aids in rpgs, I'm kinda at a loss. Once you bring the focus out of imagination onto an actual physical object I think we're back to the situation you're trying to avoid.

-Chris

Just a quick suggestion. I don't use anything equivalent myself, but I might look at Everway for inspiration on how to use artwork as an integral part of story-oriented game-play. The idea there was to use the physical props (i.e. image cards) as a starting-point for the story. For miniatures, this would mean that rather than coming up with a character independently, and trying to use the miniature to represent him -- you would start with the miniature and use that as a starting point for character. A similar logic could apply to use of cards and maps. i.e. The map is canonical, but is the starting point for creative interpretations.

I've never done anything like this, but it sounds like it could be very interesting, actually. Hmmmmmm...

Um...Heroclix?

Fang Langford

I'm not sure how to completely answer that question. But in roleplaying games we use alot of props:

1: the character card! Just a notecard with a picture of your character on it and all your stats written on the back, then we safety pin them to our shirt. Fun little roleplaying prop that allows cool acting out of stuff(not really applicable for this set of inquiry, but still cool)

2: Miniatures in d&d... you know just pumping standard d&d rules, but using the miniatures for reference use on your characters positions in battle. The only equations are ones you already have in regular D&D, but the visual reference is nice for stratagizing your battles.(i'm sure many of us have done this)

3: COSQUEST - around here we have a group that live action plays basically D&D only with weapons made of pvc, with foam around them. All your weapons and armour have stats attached to them, the math is pretty simple, but we love this stuff. physical represenitives of what would normally be just stats on a page.

So applying physical elements to roleplay is easy I guess... but now comes the hard part, adding roleplay to a physically based game...

THOUGHT: how about making diplomacy necessary in RISK? you know, if you have enough players, alliances and stuff, what if you altered things further so the talking, and peace agreements, and formalities are necessary to do anything in the game? RISK 2210 has a cool set of rules with commanders and nukes and diplomacy cards, maybe this sort of thing can be expounded on.

THOUGHT: We've played MageKnight with plot. Instead of just "TWO ARMIES MEET ON THE FIELD FOR BATTLE!!!" as the plot; you have two warring factions one of which is sending a small battalion to infiltrate the enemy castle(my friend made this really cool castle with secret entrances and the works). We had it that archers couldn't see you if you were out of their attack range, and close combat guys had an arbitrary sight of 3 inches. So then one team had to use stealth to get into the castle, and like the other had to defend the castle. also we'd have one piece which represented the leader of the rogue group and the king of the castle. you'd have conversation through these leader characters.
I dunno, care to expound?

THOUGHT: Magic:The gathering, or YuGiOh, talk like you are the mage or cardplayer, you know "I NOW SUMMON FROM THE DEPTHS OF HELL, MY ULTIMATE EVIL CREATURE IT WILL DEFEAT YOUR PUNY SUMMON" then the other guy's like "OH YEAH!? WELL EAT THIS!!!! EEEEEAAAAAHHHH!!!!" as you slap down that 13/13 creature. "BUWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!" then the first guy is all like "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" as he dies.

So yeah, just add more plot, more character... get into the game a little more. That what I do

I'm a big believer in this sort of thing; taking mechanical play into props that are inherently colour-full. A while ago I proposes a subsystem for "alignment", in which a card map of the souls fate in a Dante-esque context. The idea was that you could only see a marker showing your spiritual destiny if you were confessed by a priest... but that also the physical presence of the card, on the table in front of the players, even without markers, would be a constant reminder of the local colour and probably some thematic stuff.

Perhaps define a character's abilities not in numerical terms, but in board-game terms. Example: Bob the barbarian can attack anything within two squares of him with his GreatAxe. If you combine this with a quick dice system, it would be like a board game.

Waitaminute! You said you had teh Hero Quest boardgame with all the little props? Why not start with that and add rules to simulate non-combat activity? (e.g. Bob can persuade anyone within five squares, if he's not taking any other action. GM may award a bonus die if the player gives a good speech.)

The obvious solution to me is to make the math less repetitious, and related to the color.

Which would seem to me to be just saying yes to your question about whether or not it can be done. I just think that people haven't thought about it enough.

Here's a quick and dumb example meant to get people's looking in what I think is the right direction. Each player starts with 20 tokens, and a mini that some background written up about it. When encountering a monster in a dungeon, players consider the look of the character and monster mini (who are, again, not rated in any way), and can then donate tokens to other characters based on how well they think that the character will do against the creature. These translate into dice that are rolled to see how well the character does against the monster.

Your character winning gets you more tokens to spend on other PCs.

Now, to un-dumb this you'd want to add more kinds of rolls, and other interelation mechanics. All sorts of stuff. But do you see the idea? Power based on color. Not too difficult I think.

Mike is on the right track with modularity, too with cards and such to represent items. Use really cool illos, and inspire players to make up descriptions. The character gets a cool card with a charm on it glowing so brightly that it must be magical? Neat, what does it do against the black pudding mini?

Mike

Not to be a downer but not all gamers have access (or sometimes interest) in mini's. They are either hard to come by, expensive, etc etc ad nauseum. But there are some things which everyone pretty much has inordinate amounts of access to, paper and colored pencils, or hell even crayons. Maps and drawings can add a whole lot to a game and they are very viable props, especially in the cases of a fantasy game in which there may only be one. Perhaps instead of totally worrying about the group having a physical representation in the form of a fig, provide them with a nice and detailed colorful map that they can imagine themselves in the world in represents. Plus make sure it is one in which they can mark their progress on, it helps them remember things as well as serving as an awesome visual especially when they begin charting into unknown territory. I myself have no problems with mini's and figs, they can totally rock when used well, but sometimes they are totally out of a gamers range of accessibility. I myself just went the map route, which usually well within everyones affordability, made the map, made two copies, one for my players to mark their info on and one for me, that way they didn't always know what was coming next but I did. This way I could also mark important events and places on my map as a result of their actions. All told it only cost me $4 at Kinkos and everyone had something that made themselves that much happier.

Sylus
(if you design a game, especially fantasy, make sure you include a good easily copied map)

Mike Holmes wrote: Here's a quick and dumb example meant to get people's looking in what I think is the right direction. Each player starts with 20 tokens, and a mini that some background written up about it. When encountering a monster in a dungeon, players consider the look of the character and monster mini (who are, again, not rated in any way), and can then donate tokens to other characters based on how well they think that the character will do against the creature. These translate into dice that are rolled to see how well the character does against the monster.

Right. See, Jared's already got an example of an extant game that does exactly what you want. Work off that model.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Right. See, Jared's already got an example of an extant game that does exactly what you want. Work off that model.

Might I suggest "Charlie Company" by RAFM minatures.

It's the RPG that thinks it's a miniature wargame.

The premise is that you are a Lt. or NCO leading a platoon of American soldiers in Vietnam. During individual missions, you go out, Charlie attacks you and you fight back. Surprisingly, the game glosses over the actual combat quite a bit -- you roll a bucket of dice, get hits on 5-6's, and the GM looks up the result on a table. It goes incredibly quick and requires little math/effort on anyone's part.

The game puts a focus on Command and Control. The players form the command staff so the NCOs have control of their 10 man squads and the Lt. has command over the whole platoon. But squads get separated and you have to make the best decisions you can. This is enforced by a "no table talk" rule and a 30-second "discussion" periods between rounds when you can talk with other players in earshot or radio contact.

On a larger level, that squad leader is *you*. Each mission represents the highlight of a "month" of action. You're actually playing through a tour of duty and once your time is up you get to go home....if you don't time out and go home in a body bag first.

Hands down, this is one of the best miniature wargames I've ever played in my life. The action is fast and furious, the tension is incredible. You've got a total "you are there" sense. Further, it's the only game that's spurred me to go out and buy actual books and do historical research about the conflict.

Although you seem to have a fantasy genre in mind, the underlying system and ideas might still prove very fertile ground for ideas of your own.

later
Tom

Paganini wrote: What's Sketch, and where is it?

*smacks head*

I can't believe I forgot about Sketch!

*crawls away in shame*

Edit: The thread concerning stock art in the Publishing forum brought a discussion about rpg setting books to mind. The idea being that setting books could/should consist entirely of inspirational art. A wonderful use of color, IMO.

-Chris