The Forge Reference Project

 

Topic: Fortune and narrative suspence
Started by: Johannes
Started on: 3/7/2003
Board: RPG Theory


On 3/7/2003 at 10:42am, Johannes wrote:
Fortune and narrative suspence

Hi,

I'm working on the purpose of fortune mechanics in RPGs. I'm basically trying to address the question "Whý people use fortune in their play?" One of the sub-questions I have come up is "Do fortune mechanics add to the narrative suspence experienced by the players?" By narrative suspence I mean the exitement felt by players when they are faced with the question "What will happen next?" typical of climaxes of action adventure movies. (Will the cavalry arrive in time? Will the hero rescue the heroine before it is too late? etc.)

Does the use of fortune add narrative suspence to _your_ gaming experience? Is there a differnce in the level of suspence experienced if _you_ use karma or drama instead?

I'm also interested in any other insights or comments you might have.

Cheers,

Message 5483#55166

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Johannes
...in which Johannes participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/7/2003




On 3/7/2003 at 2:33pm, bowlingm wrote:
Re: Fortune and narrative suspence

Johannes wrote: By narrative suspence I mean the exitement felt by players when they are faced with the question "What will happen next?" typical of climaxes of action adventure movies. (Will the cavalry arrive in time? Will the hero rescue the heroine before it is too late? etc.)


I don't mean to be difficult, but I don't think in movies the questions you list generate all that much suspense. Of course, the cavalary will come in time, and the hero rescue the heroine before it is too late. Typical action adventure movies all answer these questions in the typical way. There may be some directors/writers that play with the basic formula, but you usually know that before watching one of their movies, and so anticipate that as well.

I still think the question's very interesting, and I'd like to hear others' answers! Before joining the Forge I mentally equated my concept of Narrativist play with diceless, or at least minimal dice rolling. After reading Ron's essay and buying up some of the Narrativist indie games which seem to all employ Fortune, it was an eye opener.

Mike

Message 5483#55172

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by bowlingm
...in which bowlingm participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/7/2003




On 3/7/2003 at 3:54pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Hello,

Johannes, I think discussing "suspense" at the outset is assuming too much. What we are dealing with are events that cannot be controlled by personal agenda, which play very differently roles in different modes of role-playing.

In Gamist play, Fortune varies greatly. It may be incorporated into either of two general approaches, one of which I'm calling "the Gamble" and the other I'm calling "the Crunch." They are not exclusionary, but play does tend toward one or the other. Neither of these has been discussed before on the Forge, and I'll be presenting them in full in my upcoming essay.

Briefly, in Gamble-heavy play, a lot is at risk and a lot of unreliable chanciness is involved, thus Fortune plays a big role in final outcomes. In Crunch-heavy play, chanciness may be present but it modifies or sets up relatively reliable contexts for strategy.

To make all this even more confusing, an enormous amount of in-game material can be covered by a single roll in Gamist play, if the issue at hand is only setting up for the Gamble or Crunch of interest. For example, "initiative" in many 70s games represents dozens of physical and perceptive events in-game, handled usually by a very arbitrary single die roll.

In Narrativist play, Fortune also varies greatly, and for many of the same reasons. However, outcomes in this mode of play are about different things than in Gamist play and reflect differently upon the people involved. The underlying principle is that posing adversity is fun, and resolving adversity is fun, but doing both for a given conflict is boring for Narrativist purposes. I think of Fortune methods here as "springboards," or contributing arbitrary, or almost-arbitrary material that the authors use as inspiration and constraint (which are practically the same thing when creating a story).

Fortune-in-the-middle is extraordinarily effective in generating a usable, dynamic relationship between springboarded input (what the dice say) and author-type decisions. I consider it vastly more effective than unstructured Drama systems, which is what people most often mean by the term "diceless."

In Simulationist play, Fortune is historically very different - it almost always falls into two exclusive categories: "physics," which I think most people understand easily, and another one that's hard to name or even to recognize, but "situating" or "arranging" might be stating it adequately. This latter notion includes things like rolling on birth tables or for today's weather - it is, essentially, extending and including the process of character or setting creation directly into play.

Best,
Ron

Message 5483#55182

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Ron Edwards
...in which Ron Edwards participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/7/2003




On 3/8/2003 at 5:22am, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: Re: Fortune and narrative suspence

Johannes Kellomaki wrote: Do fortune mechanics add to the narrative suspence experienced by the players?

At first I thought the answer was obvious. Most of my players, particularly those who are heavily gamist, think that fortune is essential to prevent you from knowing the outcome in advance. One recently said he didn't see the point of playing a game in which your character couldn't die unless you gave permission--there was no "risk" involved unless the dice could kill you. In that sense, it seems inevitable that the fact that there is a random factor creates suspense: you can't know what will happen in advance, you wonder what the outcome will be, and it matters.

But when I play Stratego, I don't know where the other player's pieces are, and that creates suspense. In most of the card games I play, while dealing the cards is a random factor, the play is not random, and even if I know all the cards my opponent is holding I do not necessarily know how he will play them, thus there is still suspense. Done right, non-fortune systems can create as much suspense as fortune ones. Perhaps it's easier to design and use a fortune system to achieve that, but to say that you need it is very narrow.

Ron Edwards wrote: The underlying principle is that posing adversity is fun, and resolving adversity is fun, but doing both for a given conflict is boring for Narrativist purposes.

I hesitate to disagree; my gut feeling is that in game play this is true. However, I also write novels, and in doing so I often find that I am posing adversity with no clear knowledge at that moment of how I'm going to resolve it, and a good deal of the fun comes from finding my way to that resolution. I am not at all bored by the process; sometimes I actually jump out of my chair and rush off to try to find someone to tell about how the character solved the problem. Maybe that's entirely different--a matter of creating problems for yourself that you don't know how to solve (within the limits of a particular character's ability and identity) and then working through to the solution; but maybe it's not so different after all.

And maybe like so many things in gaming, it appeals to some players but not to others.

--M. J. Young

Message 5483#55289

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by M. J. Young
...in which M. J. Young participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/8/2003




On 3/8/2003 at 6:29am, Jack Spencer Jr wrote:
RE: Re: Fortune and narrative suspence

M. J. Young wrote: I hesitate to disagree; my gut feeling is that in game play this is true. However, I also write novels, and in doing so I often find that I am posing adversity with no clear knowledge at that moment of how I'm going to resolve it, and a good deal of the fun comes from finding my way to that resolution. I am not at all bored by the process; sometimes I actually jump out of my chair and rush off to try to find someone to tell about how the character solved the problem. Maybe that's entirely different--a matter of creating problems for yourself that you don't know how to solve (within the limits of a particular character's ability and identity) and then working through to the solution; but maybe it's not so different after all.

I am going to agree with MJ here big time because my own feeble attempts at writting have yielded similar results. The thing to understand is that the narrative of a story rarely comes to the author all at once. In some cases the situation comes to mind and then the author "watches" their characters work their way out of their situation. In a sense, the author becomes the story's first reader and can enjoy it on the thematic level very similar to any other reader.

To bring this back to the original questions posed for this thread:
Johannes wrote: "Whý people use fortune in their play?"
"Do fortune mechanics add to the narrative suspence experienced by the players?"

Well, I think that my and MJ's experiences show that suspense can occur apart from Fortune, unless you count the inner workings of the mind as Fortune. But if you do, how do you distinguish it from Drama?

No. I think that Fortune can = suspense, using the term to refer to a heightened interest and uncertainty in the events as they unfold during play (because it is possible to know with certainty the outcome of events and still retain interest, like rereading a favorite book and is likewise possible to not know the outcome and not give a shit) where the problem lies is many roleplayers mistake that fortune = suspense and that suspense = fortune which just isn't so.
Does the use of fortune add narrative suspence to _your_ gaming experience? Is there a differnce in the level of suspence experienced if _you_ use karma or drama instead?

Fortune can add uncertainty, and it can also fail to do so as noted in past threads when the effective value is so high that it might as well be Kharma, whether it's suspense or not will vary. In any case, it is a matter of application.

Message 5483#55293

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Jack Spencer Jr
...in which Jack Spencer Jr participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/8/2003




On 3/8/2003 at 11:21am, Johannes wrote:
RE: Re: Fortune and narrative suspence


I don't mean to be difficult, but I don't think in movies the questions you list generate all that much suspense. Of course, the cavalary will come in time, and the hero rescue the heroine before it is too late. Typical action adventure movies all answer these questions in the typical way. There may be some directors/writers that play with the basic formula, but you usually know that before watching one of their movies, and so anticipate that as well.


It's very true that most of us usually know the conventions of the genre so well that we know the outcome (the good guys always win). However it's an interesting feature of the human mind that we still can (and usually do) feel suspense. People somehow pretend to themselves they don't know what will happen. This is illustrated also by the example of whatching a thriller movie for the second time. It is usual for the audience to still feel suspence even if they know the outcome for sure. Strange thing that imagination is.

This is the reason I am asking this. If I thought that suspence was the rsult of not knowing the outcome the relation between fortune and suspence would be pretty obvious.

Message 5483#55302

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Johannes
...in which Johannes participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/8/2003




On 3/8/2003 at 11:33am, Johannes wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Hi,

Ron: Thanks for the valuable insights on the nature of foortune. They will be useful to me. Thanks for the biblographic info as well. (refering to a private message) I'd still like to hear your subjective take on fortune and suspence.

M.J. and Jack: My intuitive view on mechanics and suspence is similar to yours but I'm pretty inexperienced with other than fortune systems so your insights are valuable to me.

I'm still interested on reading how people experience the relation between suspence and fortune in their play and hou does it compare to drama and karma. Keep them coming.

Message 5483#55303

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Johannes
...in which Johannes participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/8/2003




On 3/9/2003 at 9:23pm, clehrich wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Alfred Hitchcock once explained suspense like this. Suppose you have some people sitting around a table, in a room. A bomb goes off, under the table, and kills them all. That's surprise. If you show the audience that there is a bomb, and that it's ticking, and then you have the people around the table start having a conversation, you've got suspense. The point is that the audience knows that something big is likely to happen, and soon, but they don't know exactly when, nor whether the characters will figure it out in time.

I think fortune mechanics are usually quite different from this. You have a situation that could go lots of ways, and you roll dice (or whatever) to find out which way it does go. What's suspenseful about this? It seems to me that real suspense depends on a determined situation, not on random factors. In fact, taking Hitchcock's suggestion, you could argue that random factors eliminate or undercut suspense.

One way you could imagine the suspense working with random factors is if (to take the bomb example) the characters do find the bomb, but then they have to make skill rolls to turn it off (James Bond does this a lot). Will they roll well enough? But again, the suspense comes from the situation; the rolls are simply a way to decide how to resolve that situation.

To take an alternative extreme, suppose there's a hidden bomb, and the characters have to do well on their "spot hidden" skills to find it. They fail, unfortunately. Boom! That's surprise, not suspense. If they succeed, they flick the off switch. Click! Where's the suspense in that?

I think fortune mechanics can certainly be useful, but I don't see that they have anything particular to do with suspense in a formal sense.

Message 5483#55375

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by clehrich
...in which clehrich participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/9/2003




On 3/10/2003 at 2:09am, Le Joueur wrote:
It's Da Bomb!

clehrich wrote: I think fortune mechanics can certainly be useful, but I don't see that they have anything particular to do with suspense in a formal sense.

I really appreciate a good explanation of suspense when I can get one and this is no exception, but you missed the most important metaphor.

The dice are the bomb.

Like the Hitchcockian audience, the players know that the dice are coming out and watch as all the IIEE elements are aligned before the throw, but their characters don't. The question in all good die rolls is what creates the suspense. Will he hit? Will they dodge? Will he notice the forgery? And so on; no I think suspense is probably one of the best guidelines for 'when to pull out the dice.' Do it too often and there's no tension in it. The best die rolls are just like the bomb in this example; you know they're going to roll, but you don't know 'who is going to survive.'

If anything, I'd say that a Fortune in the Middle (FitM) system is one of the harder mechanics to write for exactly this reason. Basically, the bomb goes off and then you figure out where everyone was and who survives. Fortune at the End (FatE) gives you the opportunity to create suspense while performing the 'fortune check' and is released suddenly at the end. That's why I'm fond of allowing 'a little barter' relative to 'what's gonna happen' with FatE before the roll; it creates suspense.

The way some systems call for so darn many rolls that they completely lose this is left to the reader as an exercise.

Fang Langford

Message 5483#55388

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Le Joueur
...in which Le Joueur participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/10/2003




On 3/10/2003 at 3:22am, Jonathan Walton wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Ron Edwards wrote: I consider (FitM) vastly more effective than unstructured Drama systems, which is what people most often mean by the term "diceless."


And I really wish people would stop making comments like that, because it futher supports the belief that "diceless" means unstructured. Come on, Ron, throw us Fortuneless designers a bone here...

Personally, I haven't played any game that uses Fortune in the past 2 years. I play Nobilis on a weekly basis and just came back from the first Storypunk playtest that went exceptionally well. Full of suspense, I might add, without any Fortune whatsoever.

In my experience, suspense in Fortuneless games comes not from the dice but from either A) the unknown future actions of the GM, B) the unknown future actions of the other players, or C) the fact that nobody knows what the heck is going to happen. All of these types of suspense are also there in Fortune-based games, and losing any minor suspense that the dice create, doesn't, I think, do much in the long run.

Take my Nobilis demo this weekend. The group of characters investigated a dark ship (as in the sailing kind) that had come from the Lands Beyond Creation and probably housed a being capable of destroying concepts such that they never existed. Serious levels of suspense because only I, the GM, knew (supposedly) who was on that ship and what they were going to do when they discovered the characters. This kind of suspense is also present in Fortune-based games. Likewise, only the GM knew the stats/abilities of this enemy, which also provided suspense, but this is also there in Fortune-based games. The other characters, as well, were not fully predictable and were constantly doing things that surprised/freaked out each other, creating more suspense. Lastly, I was running the whole session in my usual off-the-top-of-my-head style, which provided suspense for me, because even I didn't know what would necessarily happen.

To understand the last bit, you have to understand that I run my games as if Clinton's "Donjon" is there in the background. That is to say, if one of the characters searches for X, I'll make sure there's some X there. If a player/character is interested in X, I'll make sure it makes it into the narrative in some way or another. It's a very responsive style based on what the players do and want. I find it to be a lot of fun, and very suspenseful and exciting for me, which is something that doesn't happen so much if everything's planned out or (uggh!) railroaded.

Just some thoughts.
Jonathan

Message 5483#55394

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Jonathan Walton
...in which Jonathan Walton participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/10/2003




On 3/10/2003 at 5:04am, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Jonathan Walton wrote:
Ron Edwards wrote: I consider (FitM) vastly more effective than unstructured Drama systems, which is what people most often mean by the term "diceless."


And I really wish people would stop making comments like that, because it futher supports the belief that "diceless" means unstructured. Come on, Ron, throw us Fortuneless designers a bone here...

Jonathan, I think you've done Ron a disservice with this. Ron certainly knows, and has often said, that there are many excellent approaches to games that have no dice, and games that have no fortune mechanics whatsoever. He's not decrying all "diceless" games as being "unstructured Drama systems". He's not talking about excellent games like Nobilis.

I'm sure you've encountered the same kind of people I have; I know exactly who Ron means when he references "most people" in this context. These are the people who tell you that you can play a role playing game with "no system at all", and that they often play "without any rules". On a list I'm currently having an excellent debate about the role of GM/Referee in play, and my adversary in this debate maintains that "rules take the referee out of the loop" (whereas I argue that the referee is the one whose understanding of the rules is definitive, and thus the application of the rules as written is de facto the interpretation of the referee as to how the game is played). He has presented as evidence that his wife ran a "role playing game" with no rules at all; she'd never played one, knew nothing of the trappings of such games, but merely decided "what seemed right" as the game progressed. This, he said, was a game without rules. As Seth Ben-Ezra so skillfully pointed out over there, he had overlooked that "what seemed right" was itself a rules system.

Ron is only saying that those people out there who are constantly saying you should get rid of your dice are the same people who say you don't need any rules, you can just play without rules or dice or anything; and that they are actually using unstructured Drama resolution for outcomes--a system, and usually not a terribly good one.

No one would accuse Nobilis or Amber or any of the great "diceless" games that have been written of being "unstructured" anythings. These are well-structured games. The point of the statement had nothing to do with these.

Personally I like to mix my resolution systems to some degree; but I do find Fortune most useful in many situations.

--M. J. Young

Message 5483#55399

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by M. J. Young
...in which M. J. Young participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/10/2003




On 3/10/2003 at 3:44pm, Jonathan Walton wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

I don't want to derail this thread, so I'm not going to respond to M.J.'s comments as thoroughly as I'd like. Suffice it to say, I knew Ron wasn't seriously making the claim that all diceless/Fortuneless games were unstructured, but the Fortuneless systems that would be most useful to this conversation (in my opinion, that means structured ones) were seemingly being swept aside by his throwaway line. That's what I was objecting to, not the points that you brought up. I also take exception to this:

M.J. wrote: Ron is only saying that those people out there who are constantly saying you should get rid of your dice are the same people who say you don't need any rules...


Well, there are "some people in here" as well who are constantly saying you should get rid of your dice (like me) for completely different reasons, and who happen to like rules a whole lot. Personally, I think dice are an overrated, antiquated throwback to the early roots of roleplaying and are taken for granted by way too many designers. But that's just me ;)

But getting back to the topic...

To answer Johannes question, I don't think dice necessarily have much to do with suspense at all. It all depends on how they are incorperated into the system. Like people have said, if you have many die rolls for unessential things (like skills in times of no stress, or for resisting drunkeness when not in any danger), it lessens their impact. But if you only use die rolls for moments of high drama and risk, they do provide elements of suspense. This isn't to say that this suspense couldn't be created in other Fortuneless ways, though. Dice are just a traditional method of acheiving this end.

However, if you really want to get into the question of "why so many roleplaying systems use Fortune," which you seem to imply in your opening post, I think you're coming at it from the wrong direction. Many designers (I would almost say "most," but that might not be completely accurate) use Fortune because it's what they're comfortable with. They can do Fortune, because they've done it so many times before. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the day when Ron writes a Fortuneless system, but I'm not holding my breath :) Fortune is a traditional and conservative component of roleplaying and, in many cases, the reasons people use it have less to do with its usefullness and more to do with traditional views of the hobby/art.

Later.
Jonathan

Message 5483#55431

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Jonathan Walton
...in which Jonathan Walton participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/10/2003




On 3/10/2003 at 3:53pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Hi Jonathan,

You've mis-read me, badly. I am referring to unstructured Drama systems, just as you quote. But Nobilis, and Amber for that matter, use Karma-based systems. They are completely out of the purview of my comments.

This is exactly what "diceless" is such a rotten term. Not having dice really doesn't tell you what the game actually has, whether it's an alternate Fortune system, or whatever - and in this case, whether it's Karma or Drama primarily.

As for your somewhat snide challenge, I wrote a Fortune-less system in 1998, called Fantasy for Real. You have two values: a base, and a pool. You can choose to use your base alone in a Karma resolution, or you can pump a point from your pool to increase it, which is a resource that has to be re-filled by carrying out some specified act.

Sound familiar? Yeah. It's Nobilis, basically.

I cannibalized so many parts of Fantasy for Real for Elfs, though, that I never completed it. Some of its magic system has shown up in Clinton's Donjon.

Oddly enough, I agree with you about Drama, Karma, and suspense. But that's not what Johannes is asking about. Perhaps your "Must ... Defend ... Nobilis!" defense-mechanism can be put on hold while we discuss Fortune.

Best,
Ron

Message 5483#55434

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Ron Edwards
...in which Ron Edwards participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/10/2003




On 3/10/2003 at 4:04pm, Jonathan Walton wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Ron Edwards wrote: Perhaps your "Must ... Defend ... Nobilis!" defense-mechanism can be put on hold while we discuss Fortune.


Actually, it's my "Must ... Defend ... Fortuneless ... Systems!" defense-mechanism at work, since every game I'm currently working on is Fortuneless. I'm not defending Nobilis so much as defending my own work. But I'll try to refrain myself...

I'm sorry I assumed you'd never written a Fortuneless system. I just haven't seen talk of any and made a erroneous assumption. I apologize.

Later.
Jonathan

Message 5483#55439

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Jonathan Walton
...in which Jonathan Walton participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/10/2003




On 3/11/2003 at 8:09am, Johannes wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Hi,

Your comments have been very interesting. When I started this thread I had this hunch that many gamers defend the use of fortune because they think that it provides narrative suspence. I also thought that this line of thinking was too simple and wrong.

The thing about fortune is that you cannot predict it which means that use of fortune provides the game with a degree of unpredictability and surprise. Surprise is not suspence as clerich showed with his/her Hitchcock example. The possibility of surprise can be a part of suspence but its not necessary. You can have suspence without the possibility of surprise (watching the same thriller movie twice for example).

The consensus seems to be that there is no necessary connection between fortune and suspence and I agree. It is also a very good point that fortune CAN work towards more suspence and that the contextualization of the die roll (or what ever) is perhaps the key issue on this one. By contextualization I mean things like plot functionality and dramatic rythm.

However it's interesting that this (fortune = surprise = suspence) fallacy is so common. Maybe it's because gamers easily mistake something else for suspence or maybe it's just because they haven't tried anything else than fortune. I'll take a look on the mistakes now.

1. Mistaking game suspence with narrative suspence. By game suspence I mean the kind of suspence spectators of a football game (that's soccer for you Americans) feel. You really don't know for sure who will win the game. It is different from narrative suspence because the object of the emotion is real/actual. I can easily imagine that this is one reason why fortune and not cheating are often an important part of gamist experiences (which can emerge in any GNS-style of play).

2. Mistaking the general unpredictability of human life with suspence. Here the fortune represents those variables of a character's life which are beyond his/her control.

Pleas don't equate these with GNS-categories even if the connections seem obvious. I believe thay can be part of all three styles of play.

Fortune and surprise are more important to these forms of suspence (surprise is imortant to games like football and the feeling that you cannot control all the variables of your life is important to simulating life) than for the narrative suspence. So this could at least in part explain the fallacy.

Message 5483#55561

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Johannes
...in which Johannes participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/11/2003




On 3/11/2003 at 6:28pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

I don't think that such a fallacy exists. Yes, for those who may claim that dice are the only way to get suspense, that's an overstatement. I would go so far as to say that amongst commonly played games played in the most common modes of play that dice are the method that most players think of in terms of what does provide suspence.

What we have here is a false dichotomy. That you either have dice and suspense, or no dice an no suspense. There are, of course, other ways to get suspense.

That said, I think that fortune is a great way to get suspense. For some people like myself, it is, perhpas, superior to most other methods. Dice do not surprise. That's just not true. A surprise comes from having no prior knowledge of the impending event. As in the example of the bomb just going off. In all cases of rolling dice, I have at the very least that part of suspence convered. We know that several things could happen, and we await the outcome. In that dice in fact enforce suspense to the extent that it can be.

Now, whether tying your shoes successfully is suspenceful is not in quesiton. It's not suspensefull using either fortune or any other resolution method. The issues of pacing and context are crucial to suspense no matter how things are decided.

Perhaps for you, Johannes, there is some difference between the suspence of a Footbal game and the suspense of a hitchcock film. But for the life of me, the feelings are functionally identical. I'm not sure what making a differentiation between them would enhance.

Human life can be very suspenseful. Opening that letter to be accepted to a university, or waiting for news about a missing relative. Makes my heart pound. Again, what's the difference, and why shoud I care?

No, I think that this is entirely a straw man issue dealing with the Fortuneless agenda. Why can't peole just have preferences, and leave it at that? There has to be a single way that's superior for all? If not, then this is just an opinion.

Mike

Message 5483#55592

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Mike Holmes
...in which Mike Holmes participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/11/2003




On 3/11/2003 at 6:39pm, Jonathan Walton wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Mike Holmes wrote: No, I think that this is entirely a straw man issue dealing with the Fortuneless agenda.


I can't believe you just said "the Fortuneless agenda." :)

That's priceless! It's like we're a lobby group or a PAC!

"Really, Mr. Stolze, our supporters would prefer it if your next system could rely a bit less on the 'randomness' our opponents seem to prefer. A 624-page brief explaining our persepective has been delivered to your secretary..."

Later.
Jonathan, anti-Fortune activist

P.S. Complete agreement with Mike, btw. The dice or no-dice thing is a red herring, based too much on the personal preferences of the people involved.

Message 5483#55595

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Jonathan Walton
...in which Jonathan Walton participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/11/2003




On 3/11/2003 at 8:12pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Jonathan Walton wrote: I can't believe you just said "the Fortuneless agenda." :)

I'm not imagining it, am I? I mean, people who prefer this sort of game seem to me to go out of their way to let the masses know of their epiphany. That dice aren't neccessary. That playing without dice is superior. They're only slightly less vocal than the (to me silly) people who want everyone to know that you can play without rules. As though they'd discovered an activity that hadn't been present likely since the advent of language.

Not that Johannes is doing this, neccessarily. He could just be pointing out that neither is spuperior in the face of what he sees as a conspiracy to prevent diceless gaming. But it seems to me that the folks on our side of the fence are doing a lot more defending, and they're doing a lot more in the way of trying to convert people.

I support promoting understanding. But if it's a campaign against my preferences, well then I can be just as activist in return. :-)

As to whether it's a preference or not, well, that's still the subject of the debate.

Mike

Message 5483#55618

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Mike Holmes
...in which Mike Holmes participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/11/2003




On 3/12/2003 at 9:21am, Johannes wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Hi Mike,

Mike Holmes wrote:
Perhaps for you, Johannes, there is some difference between the suspence of a Footbal game and the suspense of a hitchcock film. But for the life of me, the feelings are functionally identical. I'm not sure what making a differentiation between them would enhance.


I can't agree with you here. Game suspence and narrative suspence are different in a fundamental way. This is easily illustrated by watching a film for the second time. There will still be suspence - even more of it, though usually less. Now compare this to watching the Champions League Final 2002 for the second time. There is no suspence. Thats why most people don't watch football games twice. That's why they get angry if someone spoils the result of a game they're going to watch. Narrative suspence can take repetition, game suspence cannot.

I would explain the difference like this. The feelings are not only functionally identical but identical. It's the same feeling in both suspences. The difference lies in the object of the feeling and the position of the feeling subject. In game suspence the object of the suspence is actual - it's on the same level of reality with the subject. In narrative suspence the object is fictional. It's on a different level of reality than the subject who is still actual. The difference is the difference between actually living a situation and considering a situation hypothetically. In game suspence we are in the situation. In narrative suspence we pretend to be in it. We can even pretend to be someone else in that pretended situation (this describes role-playing well). Our emotions do not change if the object of the emotion is pretended or not. We can live actual events only once in our life but we can pretend pretended events many times. *

Otherwise I think that we are pretty much on the same lines. Maybe this thred has now served its purpose and a safe concensus has emerged. I'm satisfied but I don't want to close anybody's mouth so feel free to discuss - especially if you have new insights to the subject.

*
Now for some sosiobilogical speculation which is quite far from the subject of this thread. I'm a student of the arts so I might be way out of my league here but I'll give it a try anyway. Stone me if I'm wrong. The reason why we don't experience suspence if we watch actual events for the second time and why we do experience it in the case of fiction is that in the case of an actual event repeated suspence is not an evolutionary asset but in the case of fiction it is. The ability to consider and simulate potential conflict situations outside the present context was a valuable asset during the period of human evolution. Individual who had this ability had higher survival rate and did better in social power struggles within the cave-man group. The experience of suspence is relevant and possible only inside the situation. Actual situations are not repeatable but fictional situations are. One can be inside the pretended situation many times but on can be inside the actual situation only once - when it happens.

Message 5483#55707

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Johannes
...in which Johannes participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/12/2003




On 3/12/2003 at 2:58pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Hi Johannes,

From a sociobiological point of view toward humans, stories are "thought-experiments" - imagined fitness-investment conflicts under a variety of different circumstances. This idea supports your idea about suspense (although I think that this word is being used in many different ways).

However, bear in mind that evolutionary psychology (a branch or application of sociobiology) suffers badly from a lack of rigorous research. Many of its practitioners extend the excellent writings of E.O. Wilson or Timothy Goldsmith into very dubious speculation or poorly-conceived experiments. Therefore the strength of your claim is questionable; it's theoretically consistent but not yet tested.

We aren't going to get anywhere by relying on internal sensations as data. Johannes, if you could provide a recognizable and broadly-applicable definition of suspense as a behavior, then that would help the discussion greatly.

Best,
Ron

Message 5483#55728

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Ron Edwards
...in which Ron Edwards participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/12/2003




On 3/12/2003 at 4:31pm, iago wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Johannes wrote: When I started this thread I had this hunch that many gamers defend the use of fortune because they think that it provides narrative suspence.


Narrative suspense from dice? Not here, at least. It's definitely, for me at least, a metagame suspense issue, which honestly I'm quite fine with -- a lack of metagame suspense can, potentially, undercut narrative suspense.

The two make a good partnership -- telling an intense story that is rushing towards a breaking point, then calling for a roll of the dice that could literally end up anywhere -- that's an enhancement for me, with the two parts yielding a greater whole.

And it's that greater whole that had me, as a GM, moving away from running an Amber setting game using Amber Diceless. Amber Diceless was an important, valuable starting ground for me, and it taught me a lot about GMing, as it turned out -- but in some ways it was just as valuable as a point of departure. These days I run Amber using Fudge (Fate, actually), because the dice produced a more satisfying play-experience overall -- for me, and my players, at least.

The consensus seems to be that there is no necessary connection between fortune and suspence and I agree. It is also a very good point that fortune CAN work towards more suspence and that the contextualization of the die roll (or what ever) is perhaps the key issue on this one. By contextualization I mean things like plot functionality and dramatic rythm.


I agree. Like any tool, dice can be misused, and can undercut the effect you're going for rather than enhancing it.

Message 5483#55746

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by iago
...in which iago participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/12/2003




On 3/13/2003 at 8:14am, Johannes wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Hi Ron,

Nice that my line of reasoning was not "in the woods" as we Finns say (well I guess it precisely was in a way). I agree that evolutionary psychology as it is now has many problems along with its obvious strenghts. I also recognize my thoughts as speculation only. It was not an empirical truth and I doubt it will ever be because of the enormous time spans involved. I am not equiped to argument rigorously on this field so I'll have to leave this branch of discussion as it is.

Ron Edwards wrote:

We aren't going to get anywhere by relying on internal sensations as data. Johannes, if you could provide a recognizable and broadly-applicable definition of suspense as a behavior, then that would help the discussion greatly.



First, I'm used to working with internal sensations as data so I'm quite satisfied with the discussion as it is, although I see that not much new is being said.
Second, I don't understand what you mean by the phrase "suspence as a behavior". Could you please explain?

Message 5483#55911

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Johannes
...in which Johannes participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/13/2003




On 3/14/2003 at 5:36am, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Johannes Kellomaki wrote: I don't understand what you mean by the phrase "suspence as a behavior". Could you please explain?
Maybe I can save Ron a couple minutes by attempting to answer that.

Suspense is rather a vague term in and of itself. Is it a property of the story? Is it an emotional response, a feeling people have? Those are both things we can't really discuss objectively. That would be the critical concept, I think: can we objectify suspense by defining it terms of behavior? What do people do that indicates a state related to suspense? Do they act differently, and if so how?

The difficulty is finding something objective to discuss here. Discussing subjective topics can be enlightening in some esoteric way, but in the end it's all, well, subjective, so we don't have anything tangible. I can say that I felt the suspense of a particular moment; but what is it beyond a feeling? I don't have an answer to that, but that does seem to be the question. Objectively, what is suspense?

--M. J. Young

Message 5483#56110

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by M. J. Young
...in which M. J. Young participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/14/2003




On 3/14/2003 at 8:57am, Johannes wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

I deny the possibility of discussing role-playing games objectively in a meaningfull way. If we stick to measurable properties like natural scienses do we will never get above the dogs of Pavlov in our discussions. Most of the confusion around GNS is because it tries to describe objectively something that is inherently subjective. RPG will be flattened out of existence if we reduce it to its material aspect.

Instead of objectivity we should aim at intersubjectivity hermeneutic understanding. This is what all my threads are about. It will usefull to describe our mental processes even if there will never be a divine judge who tells who's right. Discussing the difference of suspence between a spectator of a football game and audience of a RPG will tell us more about who we are as human beings and more about our hobby as an form of fiction than defining suspence as a certain pattern of electron movement in the brain. What is interesting to me in that patter is how do I experience it.

Message 5483#56129

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Johannes
...in which Johannes participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/14/2003




On 3/14/2003 at 4:22pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

I sense that this is about to proceed to the insoluble problem of behavioralism vs. personality theory. At which point we'll have to agree to disagree, right?

Mike

Message 5483#56164

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Mike Holmes
...in which Mike Holmes participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/14/2003




On 3/14/2003 at 7:12pm, Johannes wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

Yes something like that - and I don't think any of us are on this forum to have that discussion. We spend our time better here discussing RPGs than philosophy of science.

Message 5483#56194

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Johannes
...in which Johannes participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/14/2003




On 3/14/2003 at 8:08pm, Gordon C. Landis wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

I'm glad everyone is acknowledging we're up against a tough issue here. I'm gonna try and provide a clarification to the "suspense as a behavior" bit, to see if that provides a way for the conversation to go forward. But first - I'm not Ron, nor am I an expert on scientific - or any other - philosophy. I have been down this road before, and I *think* the tricky issues don't *really* matter for the discussion . . . so here goes:

The standard line is that GNS is about "observable behavior." So "what is suspense as a behavior?" means "what is it that I as an observer see when suspense is happening?" NOT objective observer vs. subjective observer/participant, just observer vs. internal mental state. How does an observer know when suspense is happening? What kind of things happen in the game play, what words are said, what kinds of interactions occur? E.g., we might say that the group becomes more alert, and is more tense as each die roll is made. We say that becasue we see the attention become more focused, and hear the sighs of relief/annoyance when the result of a die roll is revealed.

The point of this is NOT to say the internal state of tension isn't important, real and/or valid - some people might have one of those opinions, but that's not relevant to the issue at hand. It's just much easier and useful to work with these observable things.

And (best as I can tell) that's what Ron's asking - by what observable things are we going to know that suspense is happening? Because that's something he can work with, and the internal sensations are (for GNS and Ron) not. The first step beyond an internal sensation is the external report of that sensation ("Wow, great suspense during that session!"), but I think the hope is we can get even further than that. I'd really like to see how folks would say they know suspense is happening, as the observer - I bet a lot of interesting stuff would result. And I don't think we have to go into objective/subjective (terms I've found less useful than I once thought they were) philosophy of science issues in order to have that (much more useful to RPG design, IMO) discussion.

Gordon

Message 5483#56204

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Gordon C. Landis
...in which Gordon C. Landis participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/14/2003




On 3/16/2003 at 7:53am, Johannes wrote:
RE: Fortune and narrative suspence

I appreciate your try Gordon but I don't see what we would win. Whats so much better in registering tha physical symptoms of the players and then taking some combination and labeling it suspence and then trying out what techniques of play produce that combination to directly asking them when they feel suspence and how would they describe it? In the first option we will have to resort to the second (my) option anyway if we want to make sense of the empirical observations.

Message 5483#56420

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Johannes
...in which Johannes participated
...in RPG Theory
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 3/16/2003