From the Marvel thread, at the end:

Sorry, three layers of quotes to follow:

Bankuei wrote:

Jonathan Walton wrote:
The obvious thing, it seems to me, is to have almost 1/2 of the game text (or, heck, all of it) be done in a comic book format.

Jonathan, this is a WONDERFUL idea. And I can't believe no one has done it yet. The Marvel RPG would have been perfect this way. It even uses "panels" and "pages" instead of turns and rounds.

I believe several japanese rpgs use this idea to demonstrate "how to roleplay" in their manuals, often using one set of panels to show the players in "real life" sitting around the table, talking rules and points and such, and another set to show "in the game" with the various characters.

It's a great idea that hasn't made its way to the US probably solely due to the costs of artwork.

Interesting idea. I quite liked the comic explaining roleplaying in Pokethulu ( http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/downloads.htm#Pokethulhu ). Is that what we're talking about here?

Which leads to an interesting question: Some games have tricky rules at times, using charts or dice in a certain way. Many of us in the New Generation (? I'm 28) are visual learners, that is to say have no attention span. Verbal descriptions of play, or examples of how to roll dice, in screenplay or other format don't do anything more to help me visualize a rule or method than, say, the original description text.

2nd Edition Changeling had a few spots where they did the Comic Book thing. A comic book page had a few panels of action on the entire page. Then it was reprinted with the comic panel much lighter with test overlayed. The text them sort of described the various players in that game and how what they rolled converted into the action in the comic. So there are limited examples in even the mainstream/non-indie world of RPGs. I actually really liked that, and kinda wish they would do more of that style.

FASA's Masters of the Universe RPG had all of the game text provided in comic book form. It suffered IMO. It made it nearly impossible to look up this-or-that rule with it presented in this manner. True, they did have a rules summary, but not every rule was accounted for.

I guess the main thing here is if you're going to go that way, do it well. The art in said comic was fairly cheesy and the game had the feel of badly cobbled house rules cooked up over a weekend of many beers. Done right, it should work well, I guess. Like anything else.

Gah. I missed this thread. I do know that I was planning for the last month to have an illustration from Hearts and Souls intro, and then in sidebar break down that art as game "term" and pacing.

However its expensive, so, that may be the only peice I get done that way.

ks13 wrote: For electronically distributed games, this could even be done in an interactive manner.

Hi Andy,

Can't remember where, but I do recall seeing some examples(maybe in a anime/manga magazine) where they showed something like 10 or 12 pages of the stuff, and it looked like a neat way or at least interesting way to explain roleplaying to folks who never heard of it.

As far as visual representations, the most recent "Oooh" that I was pleased by was the (only) simple chart in Runequest Slayers, which showed a die with a Six on it for a hit, two dice with 6's for a Vital hit, and 3 dice with 6's for a Critical. Yeah, it's simple, but it really worked for communicating the idea quickly and well. I don't know, but some visual stuff just works.

Chris

White Wolf does (or did) this all the time. Reference Mage, Wraith, Changeling, and Werewolf. While I find the concept interesting, it doesn't particularly do anything for me by way of explaining the rules -- just seems like a nice twist on the standard "sample RPG session" you find in almost any sourcebook.

Then again, I was already quite familiar with the WW rules via Vampire by the time I saw those books, so I can't speak for their usefulness to novices of a system.

I don't recall White Wolf actually having a graphic representation of how the game works in any book. Can you perhaps point one out? Specifically? (I don't have anything but Aberrant, Adventure! and Mage and they aren't in there that I see) I've owned other ones as well, and don't recall offhand seeing it in any first or Second Editions of their works (Mage, Changeling or Werewolf)--but mayhaps it's what your calling "Graphic"?


So describe what they show and how they show it?

Sidhain wrote: I don't recall White Wolf actually having a graphic representation of how the game works in any book. Can you perhaps point one out? Specifically? (I don't have anything but Aberrant, Adventure! and Mage and they aren't in there that I see) I've owned other ones as well, and don't recall offhand seeing it in any first or Second Editions of their works (Mage, Changeling or Werewolf)--but mayhaps it's what your calling "Graphic"?


So describe what they show and how they show it?

In Wraith: The Oblivion 2nd Edition, this format is used from pages 264 - 269. The lefthand page has a comic book-style layout, and the righthand page has a detailed description of what is happening OOC over each panel. This describes both a "typical RPG session" and gives insight into how particular skills, traits, and Arcanoi are used.

Werewolf: The Wild West has the exact same layout from pages 262 - 267.

Werewolf: the Apocalypse 2nd Edition has the same layout from pages 240 - 245. (This is right after the nifty page-by-page of two werewolves duking it out).

In Changeling, the same layout occurs from pages 252 - 257.

In Mage 2nd, it's from 266 - 271.

In Mage: Sorcerer's Crusade, it's from 216 - 221.

The layout in all of these books is precisely the same: lefthand page a comic book of action, righthand page an explanation of what is happening in game terms, and what's going on with the hypothetical gaming group.

From what I can tell, the practice was entirely abandoned in 3rd Edition runs.

Appearently it is only in the WOD books (I went and looked and saw one example in one of the older editions, its also in my copy of Mage--2E--frankly I'd never even noticed they had game terms in there (Black writing on a black and grey background..).

Its not a bad idea, just make sure it is /obvious/.

Hello,

Unless I'm mistaken, the technique that White Wolf uses is not at all what's being discussed on this thread.

The technique is merely delivering the "what happens in play" example as a comic. Again, if I'm not mistaken, what's being asked about is more directed toward using the mechanics and numbers and play-objects (dice, etc) as a procedure, and whether diagrams or flow-charts can be utilized better to explain them.

Andy, is this correct? Can you provide some clear examples of exactly what you mean? And could you please be more specific in general when posting a new topic?

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, the technique that White Wolf uses is not at all what's being discussed on this thread.

Again, if I'm not mistaken, what's being asked about is more directed toward using the mechanics and numbers and play-objects (dice, etc) as a procedure, and whether diagrams or flow-charts can be utilized better to explain them.

Does that look like KODT to anyone else?

Mike

Yeah, this was the kind of stuff I was referring to. As far as I understand it, the WW stuff is basically comics displaying the "imaginary action" in the game(Ooh, vampires and werewolves and mages, oh my!) used primarily as color and kewl stuff to hook players, as opposed to literal, "How to play this game here" type stuff.

Even though I can't read japanese, I think some very interesting things are communicated nonetheless. These comics allow folks to pick up on subtle aspects of actual play social communication issues. Check out expressions, confusion, irritation, devious looks, etc. Emotional experiences of the players about the game, dealing with the rules or in game events, etc are available for the new reader.

Consider some emotionally laden events that people talk about in gaming: "I hate having to look up the rules!", "What about problem players?!?", etc. All of these have to do with stuff like being irritated having to pause play to look up unclear or complex system stuff, dealing with miscommunication, etc.

I think its a great way to quickly communicate what's going on with the players as much as how to play the game. The closest thing we have in simply written word is the FAQ question and answer type thing, which is usually stated in a very conversational tone, and comes across with more emotion than typical "instructional" writing.

Chris

One thing I want to include in a future version of InSpectres is a "dice tank" -- a piece of paper that serves where the players can store Card and Bank dice (with little sections for each type of die pool).

Wow! I agree with Chris, this is necessary information about the conduct, atmosphere, and communication of play which is largely, perhaps entirely missing from the games we're familiar with.

I have always found examples of how-to-play to be impossibly stilted and all-too-obviously fictional. I think something like what Andy's showing us could be a big deal.

By the way, Andy, usually I'm very hard on people who link pics into their posts, but I'll cut you slack this time. They really made an important point.

Best,
Ron

P.S. Ugly thought: Mike, do you think that KODT is, rather than being read as satire, perhaps being read, by someone, as actual how-to-play? Or read, even worse, as confirmation?

Just found this thread. Andy's pic of "how to lay out the tarot card" is similar to a graphic in the TORG and Masterbook rules about how to read and play those games' Drama Deck.

I can't recall exactly, but doesn't Everway also have a diagram similar to this? I know it has one about how in-game characters read the fortune deck to predict the future. (3 cards--past; over them, 2 cards--present; over them, 1 card sideways--future)

So some of the games that have brought in new visual elements (cards in addition to/replacing dice) have used some visual instructions. This is a very cool idea, especially the comics.

Edited to add: Is it just me, or does this thread remind anyone else about the bit in Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics, where he goes into "Here's how comics are different in Japan"? I guess globalization has its up-sides as well.

Following Ron's off-topic "ugly thought": I do think that there are more than a few KODT readers out there who genuinely aspire to the play-style portrayed in the strips. The KODT letter columns are full of such sentiments, especially bashing "Sarah-type players" (the most functional player in the group) and griping that B.A. (the GM) had overstepped his authority in being mean to the guys. I think it's very odd that people love laughing at something, and then try to emulate it. But people are funny, I guess.

Michael S. Miller wrote: Following Ron's off-topic "ugly thought": I do think that there are more than a few KODT readers out there who genuinely aspire to the play-style portrayed in the strips. The KODT letter columns are full of such sentiments, especially bashing "Sarah-type players" (the most functional player in the group) and griping that B.A. (the GM) had overstepped his authority in being mean to the guys. I think it's very odd that people love laughing at something, and then try to emulate it. But people are funny, I guess.

Mike Holmes wrote: I think that many of those letters are either tongue in cheek, or they are an expression of GNS incompatibility gripes...

Just in the interests in ludographic completeness, I pulled out my copy of R. Talsorian's Dream Park game last night, and it is full of helpful graphics. The first dozen pages or so are a comics-like welcome/introduction to the world of Dream Park. This includes drawings of characters "speaking" to the reader as well as drawings of the authors of the novels and Mike Pondsmith, the game designer.

Further in, each topic is broken down into its own page, with lots of handy little graphics to help out. While there aren't any pictures of how to set up around a table, it does go into things like how to measure movement using grids vs. with a ruler, all using little graphics. It all seems to have been done in the interest of making the game appealing for newbies.

Michael S. Miller wrote: Further in, each topic is broken down into its own page, with lots of handy little graphics to help out. While there aren't any pictures of how to set up around a table, it does go into things like how to measure movement using grids vs. with a ruler, all using little graphics. It all seems to have been done in the interest of making the game appealing for newbies.