Topic: How much would you want to know?
Started by: Kester Pelagius
Started on: 3/14/2003
Board: RPG Theory
On 3/14/2003 at 11:06pm, Kester Pelagius wrote:
How much would you want to know?
Greetings All,
Say someone was working on a minigame that was a melding of Ptolemaic and Medieval cosmology ala Spelljammer, but that this project was not directly based off of that game; aside from paying homage to it as a precursor in the genre of course. What I want to know is whether or not you think hard specifics about the shape of the universe or general conceptions would be better. (Meaning as pertains to the actual game, not background about the historical cosmologies involved. Let's say a few paragraphs about that has already been done.)
Also, how involved would you like the 'ships in space that isn't science fiction hyperspace, yet sort of is' mechanics to be?
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 3/15/2003 at 3:27am, Kester Pelagius wrote:
21 views and not a single response?
Must have worded my question poorly.
So I'll expand a bit, hope that the other thousand or so users here at the Forge will have a better idea when they get around to this thread.
This is not a mechanics question.
This is not a question of background information.
It's a question, quite literally, that is asking how much explanitory information dealing with the game, and how if functions, you personally think is necessary. Especially as touching upon derivative games.
In my example I use Spelljammer, which makes no actual attempt to explain itself using actual cosmological references. (At least I do not recall any.) Yet, if I had to describe it, I'd say it was a cross between a Ptolemaic paradigm and Medieval cosmology, with a bit of flavoring taken for alechemy and early chemistry thrown into the mix.
That said, how much of this sort of information would you really want to see make its way into the pages of your next gaming purchase?
On 3/15/2003 at 4:49am, Sylus Thane wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
So basically your asking if someone made an rpg like Spelljammer, essentially Disneys new Treasure Planet, how much info would I need about how the universe made it all work. Not much, a small blurb a paragraph long would be enough, it wouldn't even have to relate to real live physics as long as it made sense to the rest of the setting. My suspension of disbelief is high enough that a designer doesn't have to explain exactly and to current real world physics how it works. But, there are some people out there that need that for some reason. It all becomes a matter of preference, hopefully consumers will become less picky in that area and enjoy the game for it does do instead.
Sylus
On 3/15/2003 at 4:52am, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Too little information. What sort of play do you hope to engender?
Mike
On 3/15/2003 at 6:51am, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Greetings Sylus,
Sylus Thane wrote: So basically your asking if someone made an rpg like Spelljammer, essentially Disneys new Treasure Planet, how much info would I need about how the universe made it all work. Not much, a small blurb a paragraph long would be enough, it wouldn't even have to relate to real live physics as long as it made sense to the rest of the setting.
So you wouldn't mind a brief paragraph or two that mentioned real world cosmologies, as long as the referance was limited to being relavent to the game's setting?
But what using marginally relevant examples to better illustrate how the setting works?
Sylus Thane wrote: My suspension of disbelief is high enough that a designer doesn't have to explain exactly and to current real world physics how it works.
Ah, but what about theories about 'real world' physics that are no longer considered valid, or which were never really given much credance in the first place, yet may be a interesting premise for use in a fantasy game?
Would you want to read a paragraph or two that outlined a historical gloss about them?
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 3/15/2003 at 7:02am, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Greetings Mike,
Mike Holmes wrote: Too little information. What sort of play do you hope to engender?
In this case it would be more a illustration of a conceptual premise.
But, since you asked so nicely. . .
If you are familiar with Spelljammer let's say that I'd like to keep the basic underlying premise, stripped down to the bare bones, and rebuilt using actual references to old cosmological models. Thus change it from being a muddled attempt to create a "AD&D in space" campaign to a "fantasy version of space" without having to use the crutch of standard science fiction conventions.
As to what sort of play, it would likely be a fusion of good old fashioned role-playing with a taste of tactical tabletop gaming, for the ships part, which I haven't quite worked out the particulars of, yet, save that it would use either hexes or grids (I'm leaning toward hexes myself).
Hope that wasn't too vague?
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 3/15/2003 at 7:18am, Bankuei wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Hi Kester,
I get what you are asking, but like Mike, I'm not sure where you're aiming with the game...
...it would likely be a fusion of good old fashioned role-playing...
Which means what? From the tactical part, I figure there will be some fighting, but is it like "board ships and go hex to hex, round to round, man to man tactical"? or is it like, "Board ships swing from rigging, sword duel + talking witty trash?" Are we talking explore the universe and find treasure and funky secrets? Maybe you mean harsh cold politics(see RR Martin's Ice and Fire...) + Ship combat?
See, there's a lot of fun and cool ways "pirates in space" can play out, and you need to be clear on what it is. If we're talking harsh political manuevering, obviously I want details on who's in power, what's valuable, where the trade lanes are, etc. If we're talking space swashbuckling action, I want to know where the big spots for adventure are("Skull Asteroid...no one knows what's in it, but no one comes back out..."). If we're talking tactical space battles, what does that mean? Do we get space cannons and broadside each other? Do we throw fireballs? Maybe we each have space whales towing our ships, but each whale is equipped with a battering horn?
So how much do I need to know?
1. Given the range of stuff above, what is your game about?
2. Focusing on what your game is about, what is most useful for a group to make play happen? Is that politics and history, cool places to explore, good guy/bad guy organizations?
3. How much do you need to play the tactical parts? Do we need to know exact distances between jumps/travel in space time? Do we need to know sources of "space fuel"?
Some good ideas to look at, aside from Spelljammers, as you mentioned, is check out the original Battletech books, if you can find them. The basic rules is something like 24 pages long, jams all the history and setting info in sidebars, and yet paints an evocative enough background and conflict to set up the Battletech Universe.
Chris
On 3/15/2003 at 7:24am, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Kester--if I understand your question, you're asking whether a paragraph that says something like "this game world takes a fusion of Babylonian and Norse mythological cosmologies as the foundation for its reality, in that blah, blah, blah...." would be an asset or a detriment in a game text.
It sounds to me like it's designer notes--something that's nice to put in the back, where did you get your ideas, how did you derive this. Now, I'm not against incorporating designer notes into the text to the degree that you think they're important to understanding concepts of the universe that are relevant to play. If it's necessary to know that the world is built on the back of a turtle that is swimming in the endless oceans of eternity, and if you sail too far from the known lands you might get separated from the world entirely as it swims away from you, then you need to explain that. On the other hand, if all you mean is that the head of your pantheon is something of a cross between Marduk and Odin, the number of gamers who are actually going to gain any significant insight from that statement is probably negligible, so you're going to have to explain who the guy is himself, not where you got the ideas for him.
Is that close to addressing your question?
--M. J. Young
On 3/15/2003 at 8:06am, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Greetings,
M. J. Young wrote: Kester--if I understand your question, you're asking whether a paragraph that says something like "this game world takes a fusion of Babylonian and Norse mythological cosmologies as the foundation for its reality, in that blah, blah, blah...." would be an asset or a detriment in a game text.
No, not quite.
What I mean is. . .
The best way to explain would be either to quote you something or just ask if anyone would be interested in looking over what I have if I turned it into a PDF and offered to e-mail it to those interested.
Yeah, I've been playing around with PDFs lately. Still can't quite get my Crypt Fiend game to convert right (if anyone remembers my posts about that from last November) but I've narrowed it down to a font issue, which is a vast imporvement over PDFs that mangled the images. Which is neither here nor there. Save to say I can now create PDFs.
Yeah, yippee for me.
Back to topic: How much would you want to know? Or, to put it another way, how much do you think the average gamer would be willing to read about. Not just, as you illustrated, detail about the game world, but about actual real world information.
*thinking*
*still thinking*
Ah. . ok, ok; try this: How much information that would otherwise probably be relegated to encyclopedias and history texts do you think a game author should include in their game. Educational material, but related to the game.
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 3/15/2003 at 8:17am, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Greetings,
Again.
Bankuei wrote: I get what you are asking, but like Mike, I'm not sure where you're aiming with the game...
...it would likely be a fusion of good old fashioned role-playing...
Which means what?
That there will be a little bit of everything possible, like in any old fashioned RPG, but with rules for strategic table top ship-to-ship action. If anyone wants to enjoy a good old bit of swashbuckling swords and sorcery in the depths of either N-space the mysterious Empyrean realm.
Bankuei wrote: If we're talking harsh political manuevering, obviously I want details on who's in power, what's valuable, where the trade lanes are, etc. If we're talking space swashbuckling action, I want to know where the big spots for adventure are("Skull Asteroid...no one knows what's in it, but no one comes back out..."). If we're talking tactical space battles, what does that mean? Do we get space cannons and broadside each other? Do we throw fireballs? Maybe we each have space whales towing our ships, but each whale is equipped with a battering horn?
Most of the actual development I want to place firmly in the hands of the Game Master. There will be *some* information, obviously, to begin with. Going with what I have already done I've got a map, thumbnail descriptions of major ports of call, and the like.
As for the rest, you'll just have to wait and read it for yourself. *smirks*
Bankuei wrote: Some good ideas to look at, aside from Spelljammers, as you mentioned, is check out the original Battletech books, if you can find them. The basic rules is something like 24 pages long, jams all the history and setting info in sidebars, and yet paints an evocative enough background and conflict to set up the Battletech Universe.
Good suggestions.
What I have at present is probably 8 or 9 pages, sans the actual ship and combat mechanics.
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 3/15/2003 at 9:00am, Bankuei wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Ah. . ok, ok; try this: How much information that would otherwise probably be relegated to encyclopedias and history texts do you think a game author should include in their game. Educational material, but related to the game.
Ok, I follow you now, you're asking how much detail should you bring in on the background regarding stuff that can be accessed elsewhere...
First, I highly recommend going over the basics of whatever your gameworld is about, you have it about right when at least 3 out of 5 people who've never heard of it, can read what you have and get a good "feel" for it. The exact amount of information is going to be dependant on how popular or hot a topic is.
In this case, you're talking about "Pirates in Space" which, while a cool concept, isn't popular enough to skirt by without some detailing of the kind of stuff that's possible. For example, can people breath in space? Or not freeze/burn/explode? Can they "swim" in space? These are important basics to the genre that need to be established. Do ships move by "solar winds" with trips between star systems taking a couple of days of sailing? Can you row your way across space?
As far as other information, a lot will depend again, on the focus of your game. If you want to treat your game lightly(action adventure swashbuckling), simply give some basics and direct folks towards a list of movies, books and comics. If there are unique or significantly "difficult" concepts to convey, then you need to go into detail.
Chris
On 3/15/2003 at 5:10pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Kester Pelagius wrote: Ah. . ok, ok; try this: How much information that would otherwise probably be relegated to encyclopedias and history texts do you think a game author should include in their game. Educational material, but related to the game.
Is the material intended to further play in any way, or just to be educational. Either is fine, but as MJ said, the latter could be put in a designers notes section.
Hell, Clinton put a whole section on how to publish an indie game in Donjon.
Mike
On 3/15/2003 at 6:19pm, Le Joueur wrote:
I Think It is an Issue of Balance
Hey Kester,
Isn't it really a matter of balance? Would the game seem 'right' if there were lots and lots of description of the economics of the realm and hardly any on mechanics of the ships? Would it be 'right' to leave money out entirely? That's a personal choice in terms of balance.
We can't tell you what to do. We can't tell you what's right or better or elegant or best. Look at how big you want the product to be in the completed version; separate it into sections based upon your preferences of balance. Write these sections; go back and decide what you missed. When you get everything you missed into a specifically limited section, and balance it how you like, you'll have exactly "how much would...want to know."
Each person has their own preferences. I like a game that gives a little about everything and does an incredible job implying the rest. Everything sort of 'unfolds' from what is printed, but I'm a thinker and I like to infer and consider. Others like everything spelled out in detail, they don't like ambiguity or having to figure things out; for them the game would need to be quite focused, covering only what must come up for the game to fulfill your 'creative agenda' for it. Another person will want rock solid mechanics and 'fill' that perfectly supports and connects to it. Still others want games filled with what 'strikes their fancy,' inspiring them to play according to your vision of the 'creative agenda' with only a nod towards how that relates to the mechanics.
At best, we can only give you our opinions. What you do is up to you. Question them, but bring your own preferences to the questioning or we can only give you oblique advice.
Does that, if not answer, give framework to your question?
Fang Langford
On 3/15/2003 at 8:01pm, Jack Spencer Jr wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
"Personal preference" is being said a lot lately its seems. While on the one hand I agree that many issues do boil down to personal preference, I personally feel like it's stymieing* discussion so we can say anything solid about what I think are key issues.
I'll use an analogy. If we were a cooking site and someone asked what a good recipe for chicken was, saying there are many recipies for chicken and it boils down to one's personal preference is true but unhelpful. But then, saying one prefers steak to chicken is even less helpful.
I'm not entirely sure what I'm getting at other than it bothers me. At some point we can take it as understood that personal preference is coloring everything, really. Like when a wine, red or white, is suggested with a particular dish it is understood that you can naturally drink whatever wine you damn well please, even if it's beer, but that the suggested wine is believed to enhance the flovor of a particular dish in some way.
*"stymieing" is the correct spelling. I looked it up. Shocked me.
On 3/15/2003 at 8:36pm, Bankuei wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Hi Jack,
You make a valid point.
I'll use an analogy. If we were a cooking site and someone asked what a good recipe for chicken was, saying there are many recipies for chicken and it boils down to one's personal preference is true but unhelpful.
But I think the question that is being asked is, "What is your game about?" in the creative agenda sense, which is the same thing as saying, "What kind of chicken do you want?"
In this case, Kester, what folks are asking is more than what you can do with your game, what is being asked is what should we be doing with this game?
The amount of information is that you include depends on your focus of the "Big 5", Character, System, Setting, Color, and Situation. You can find plenty of games with tons of info(Whitewolf stuff) to the bare minimum(the Pool), you can find system heavy stuff like Hero or GURPS, to Setting Heavy. How much info would a gamer be interested in reading? What is your game focused on?
How much tangent info should you include? As much as you feel is necessary to assist the reader. Ron includes a lot of stuff that has to do with gaming that is not Sorcerer or system specific, yet its all there to assist in the playing of Sorcerer. Unknown Armies starts with a couple of pages of Design notes. How much is too much? We still haven't determined how much basic info, much less tangent info you need... We still don't know what kind of chicken we're cooking.
Chris
On 3/15/2003 at 9:33pm, Jack Spencer Jr wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Hey Chris.
Agreed. I was actually going to make the points you make but somehow forgot it. Silly old me. When asking for a recipe for chicken, "Chicken Kiev is the best way to prepare chicken" is clearly a matter of personal preference. There will not be an answer for every game. I know some people are looking for this. I know I used to and sometimes still do.
Maybe it's too early yet for what I am picturing where someone can asks for a recipe for chicken and a flurry of recipies can be posted and no one is thinking anyone is posting, asking for or otherwise looking at THE recipe for chicken. But instead see a bunch of recipies that invovle chicken that people like.
On 3/16/2003 at 4:01am, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Greetings Chris,
Bankuei wrote: In this case, you're talking about "Pirates in Space" which, while a cool concept, isn't popular enough to skirt by without some detailing of the kind of stuff that's possible.
Actually I am not, or rather that woudl be but one of numerous possible ways to use the background material. One could just as easily create a game where the players are Merchants trading goods between planets or Military personell aboard a vessel patrolling the 'great beyond' outside of a Crystal Sphere.
Bankuei wrote: For example, can people breath in space? Or not freeze/burn/explode? Can they "swim" in space? These are important basics to the genre that need to be established. Do ships move by "solar winds" with trips between star systems taking a couple of days of sailing? Can you row your way across space?
In answer to all these questions, it is not beyond the realm of possibility. A Crystal Sphere would literally be a bubble universe, think of it as sort of a beach ball afloat upon the vast infinite pleromic realm. If this were SF we could just as easily substitute terms like 'hyperspace' or 'Ort Cloud', but I rather like the concept of 'crystal shells' and 'celestial spheres'.
Of course there is a LOT of supplementary information that could be included. For instance in Kabbalah there are 'sefirot', or 'spheres' which, to grossly understate, represent the celestial bodies in cabalistic cosmology. Just as, in Gnostic cosmology, there exists the Pleroma (the region of radiant light, if memory serves) and Aeons. . . None of which really have much of anything to do with Ptolemaic cosmology, then again some here might disagree.
Bankuei wrote: As far as other information, a lot will depend again, on the focus of your game. If you want to treat your game lightly(action adventure swashbuckling), simply give some basics and direct folks towards a list of movies, books and comics. If there are unique or significantly "difficult" concepts to convey, then you need to go into detail.
Yes, but what what level of detail?
I pretty much figure that, using the example herein, that terms like 'heliocentric' and 'geocentric' are musts to include either within the body of the game text itself or as supplementary glossalia. Yet not even I think the gnostic or cabalistic examples I have given are necessary, yet they are no less esoteric than are the old pre-Copernican cosmological models.
Of course Spelljammer just gave straight up fantasy explanations, and while I am sure most here would be able to tell which cosmological models, if any, they were rooted in the authors didn't really slap the reader in the face with a history lesson. Yet it did, in a way. There was too much information about things and not enough text illustrating how to apply the concepts as game mechanics, which is probably why things like Practical Planetology and the War Captain's Companion boxed set was published
Me, I think that it shouldn't really be necessary to waste that many pages, or that many boxed sets, on what is essentially background. Then again, I wonder if maybe the majority of gamers really thought that sort of thing was precisely what was needed.
What about everyone else?
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 3/16/2003 at 4:10am, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Greetings Mike,
Mike Holmes wrote: Is the material intended to further play in any way, or just to be educational
Both.
Why?
Because the illustrative examples would provide sample models of non-standard solar systems. For instance, some models have a onion layer of crystal shells that seems more reminiscent of some Hollow Earth models than they do a solar system as most of use think of solar systems.
I think, to a degree, some background like that would be immensely useful. Yet at the same time I think such models should be presented within their historical context, but how to do it without making the work seem like an extract from text book?
I'm sure we've all encountered supplements that have come across like that, and for most of us they were things we thumbed through, maybe read a paragraph here or there, but ended up gathering dust. Course that could just be a matter of writing style so maybe I should ask, as a follow up question: How would you prefer such information to be written into a game?
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 3/16/2003 at 4:21am, Kester Pelagius wrote:
Re: I Think It is an Issue of Balance
Greetings Fang,
Le Joueur wrote: Isn't it really a matter of balance? Would the game seem 'right' if there were lots and lots of description of the economics of the realm and hardly any on mechanics of the ships? Would it be 'right' to leave money out entirely? That's a personal choice in terms of balance.
Perhaps. But I also think that would depend upon the milieu involved.
Le Joueur wrote: We can't tell you what to do. We can't tell you what's right or better or elegant or best.
No, but one could say whether they would like to know only about Ptolemaic and Medieval Cosmology, or whether a word or two about other concepts might be worthy of inclusion, using the example being discussed at present.
Le Joueur wrote: Each person has their own preferences. I like a game that gives a little about everything and does an incredible job implying the rest. Everything sort of 'unfolds' from what is printed, but I'm a thinker and I like to infer and consider.
So, would you rather have, say, a bibliography of texts/links to supplementary information so you can do the research yourself rather than have a game author include a few extra paragraphs?
Le Joueur wrote: Does that, if not answer, give framework to your question?
Not really.
Though it's helpful advice that everyone considering writing a game should probably save out to a text file and print.
(click start, programs->accessories-> word-whatever and save what Fang wrote. Really, it's good advice people.)
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 3/16/2003 at 4:30am, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Greetings Jack,
Jack Spencer Jr wrote: "Personal preference" is being said a lot lately its seems. While on the one hand I agree that many issues do boil down to personal preference, I personally feel like it's stymieing* discussion so we can say anything solid about what I think are key issues.
It's the same thing as saying: "it's a matter of opinion".
Not really a answer, per se, since it doesn't really say anything. But what can you do? People say that all the time when what they probably mean is: "just do it, get it done, finish what you've got and come back and show me something solid that I can put my hands on and give you a earnest comment about".
In Fang's defense, the question I ask is rather vague. You'd almost have to have what I have worked on in front of you to say "Oh, I see what you mean. You've got this section that mentioned a Ptolemaic solar system, even has a nice color graphic, but. . "
Jack Spencer Jr wrote: At some point we can take it as understood that personal preference is coloring everything, really.
And that is the crux of my question, I really do want to know what your personal prefernces are about levels of informtional detail that are not either A) directly related to game mechanics or B) part of the actual world background yet C) may- or may not, as we've established no two people are likely to have the same opinion- enchance the gamer's understanding of what the game is about/how it came to be.
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 3/16/2003 at 4:42am, Le Joueur wrote:
Are You Listening?
Kester,
By constantly reiterating the questions, you imply that we're not giving you answers. We need feedback; put the tip of your toe in the waters and suggest 'a direction' or we cannot get this discussion to go anywhere.
Kester Pelagius wrote: Yes, but what what level of detail?
Pick one! (All of them can be made to work; only the one you like will work best.)
This constant, 'yes, but...' isn't getting us anywhere. There is no right answer! Everyone has either asked for clearer description of what you've got or what you want; if you can't answer either in detail, I have to assume you don't have a game 'ready,' but are just trying to sketch out 'a beginning.'
In a few places around the Forge, people have basically been stating that creating a game with the idea of 'satisfying others' will only result in an unfocused mess. In order to create a game that has 'a chance,' you have to 'go with what you like.' Your clarity of vision and how that is communicated is what will win an audience, not pandering to 'what people think' or 'how much people would want.'
You began this thread with the question, "How much would you want to know?" Well, the real answer is "nothing" to be honest. It's your excitement, your interest, your drive that rings true and attracts others to your game. What you want is what 'we'll want' in the end. This hesitancy, this trolling for 'the answer,' this "yes, but..." stuff don't wash. We ain't gonna write yer game! You've got to take the initiative and actually do it.
Only then can we comment and advise.
Kester Pelagius wrote: What about everyone else?
Doesn't matter.
Unless you can answer those questions first, we aren't going to be of much help. No one knows what is right for your game. Let me turn this around. Suppose we give you some kind of concrete answer. Suppose it didn't match what you have 'inside.' Now, further, what if it really was far from what you found 'comfortable.' Does it make sense to do it that way then? Why would it make a difference if it were just 'close?' I can't see how it would benefit you or your game to make it to someone else's specification.
Now before you chime in with a 'I don't know where to start,' you have to understand we can't tell you that either. What is the solution? Write down what you have exactly as you have it. Are you afraid 'there won't be enough?' Too bad, surprise us; many have and apparently we like it. Once you get something on paper, written however badly it has to be, only then can any 'real' advice be posed. You can 'look back' at it and give clear indications what you think is wrong (too much or too little). Only then can we advise on what we think is 'enough;' without a point in common, we can't really communicate that at all well. A written example of what you are talking about is much better than all this 'beating around the bush.' Even if you have to completely rewrite it from scratch, at least then you'll have the answer that you seek (don't tell me you're afraid of the drafting process).
When you have that document, you can go 'would it be bad to make it more (or less) [blank]?' Only then can we go 'sure, doing it [this way].' Until there's some kind of position to work from, all is mostly empty speculation. That's what I mean by 'bring your ideas to the discussion.' Without them all we're doing to running around in circles regarding concepts we don't have any language for, looking for standards that don't exist, talking about the most unclear of vaporware.
So, let's see it.
Fang Langford
On 3/16/2003 at 6:58am, Bankuei wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Hi Kester,
Actually I am not, or rather that woudl be but one of numerous possible ways to use the background material. One could just as easily create a game where the players are Merchants trading goods between planets or Military personell aboard a vessel patrolling the 'great beyond' outside of a Crystal Sphere.
Sorry I misread you there, but that doesn't really tell me "what your game is about". Check out some of the issues with Zaon for a good example of a game that has trouble expressing that. The problem is, we can't give you an idea of "how much detail is necessary" without more input on what your game is about.
Right now you've given us a general idea, so we can only give general suggestions.
Right now, you're saying, "A space fantasy game where you can do(a lot of different things" and we're saying "You need as much detail as is necessary for the players to run with" We can't give you more detailed or specific answers since the creative agenda of your game is unclear.
Chris
On 3/16/2003 at 7:47pm, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Greetings All,
I seem to have confounded and confused some here so here's what I've done. For those interested I have PDFed what I have. It's still very much a work in progress but, for the most part, the character generation rules are in place and the basic direction of the rest is there to see.
If you would like to see what I have, and where I noted I paused (I have a few remarks in '{{}}' in the text here or there) then PM me or send me a E-mail with a valid address where I can send you the file.
Why would you want to bother with it?
Well, it would be good for a chuckle. Looking at works in progress are always good for a chuckle.
The PDF is 500k and 18 pages, including title page and cover. Yes, that's right, I have done a bit more than I've let on. Probably not enough with the mechanics but, well, I'm still working on things.
What the PDF does *not* have:
My current work on the stock background setting.
(Sorry but, as you've all noted by now, I like to have things 'just right'. As it stands it is just 3 to 5 pages of background and color with thumbnail overviews of possible worlds to adventure in. And a map.)
Clicakble links. (I'm having a devil of a time implementing those right.)
Sample Ships. I have two prepared, a Bireme and Flowhorse Base, in seperate PDFs. If you want everything sent to you as one archive let me know in your message and I'll send you the ZIP file. (It is 1.09 MB.)
What would the ZIP file contain?
CS_preview.PDF
Flowhorse.PDF
Bireme01.PDF
Read_me.txt (a note from me)
I thank you all for your input, and apologize for any headaches I may have inadvertantly caused.
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 3/16/2003 at 9:42pm, M. J. Young wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Kester Pelagius wrote: Oh, I see what you mean. You've got this section that mentioned a Ptolemaic solar system, even has a nice color graphic, but. . .(Elipsis in original)
Click; a light comes on. I think, anyway.
In Multiverser, we make a number of passing references to an Aristotelian universe and a Newtonian universe as places a character might adventure in which the actual operation of the universe was entirely within the rules of physics derived by these men. There's a brief comment about certain technologies that would not work in such a universe, but in the main we don't explain them--we presume that anyone with a working knowledge of those theories can run such a universe adequately, and that we can't provide such a working knowledge to those who don't, who thus probably will not run that kind of universe.
Are you asking whether a brief reference to a universe of a particular "kind" obliges you to define such a kind of universe in detail?
The answer becomes how important it is for the referee to understand the detail and be able to reproduce that kind of universe. If the referee can run the game without ever knowing what a Ptolemaic universe is, a passing reference is probably sufficient; a parenthetical (e.g., "(one in which the sun is the center of the universe, not the earth)") may be all the extra you need. If it's got to be more accurate or more specific, then you have to explain it.
Otherwise, anyone who wants to know more that isn't necessary to play can find it elsewhere.
Is that the question? Is this an adequate answer?
--M. J. Young
On 3/17/2003 at 11:06pm, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: How much would you want to know?
Greetings M. J.,
M. J. Young wrote: Are you asking whether a brief reference to a universe of a particular "kind" obliges you to define such a kind of universe in detail?
More or less, yes, that would be a fair assesment of my original question
given the example I've provided.
M. J. Young wrote: The answer becomes how important it is for the referee to understand the detail and be able to reproduce that kind of universe.
. . .
Otherwise, anyone who wants to know more that isn't necessary to play can find it elsewhere.
Granted, but not everyone will be so inclined to do research on their own. Too, there are other sorts of details beyond mere explanitory examples to passing references that one could include, but that is neither here nor there. Or rather it's the stuff of glossaries and bibliographies.
M. J. Young wrote: Is that the question? Is this an adequate answer?
More or less, yes. Quite adequate.
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius