i am trying to write a background for a pulp/classic/cheesy SF action/adventure/space opera style game. i am trying to find a focus for the antagonistic elements within the setting in an interesting way. what i present here is a brief explanation of how the bad guys work; it is very simple buyt as i wrote it i started to wodner if it wasnt t huge ripoff (subconsciously of course!) of deadlands/dark conspiracy. i present it here to solicit opinions and advice on how to make it a little more original. however to explain a couple of things:

1) the good guys are the space patrol - the name shoudl really say it all, however their specific details arent really relevant for now.
2) the mentors and the darklings are essentially yhe arisians and the eddore from lensman; they are cut from the same cloth really. their conflict spawned our galaxy
3) somewhat unrelatedly (is that a word?), i am wondering whether to limit the setting to our galaxy with perhaps a less fantastic tech level (as you might actually find in old SF) or increast the scope to the galaxy at large. there are as you might expect many alien races and the possibility for epic scope is increased with the physical size of the setting, however a smaller size might be easier to handle (similar i think to what the shootingiron people are doing with their danger aptrol game - which coincidentally i discoevered at the same time i started writing this - honest guv!)

here is my very brief little writeup:

"The Darklings were banished from the dark homeworld, the mysterious planet known only as ‘Planet X’ to the negative zone of ‘dimension x’ (from where the planet takes its name).

However since the reappearance of the planet, a cult has arisen that has secretly existed across the galaxy for as long as humanoid life has existed; these are the sinister Black Acolytes.

They fuel the power of the Darklings by harvesting fear and hate across the cosmos, working from the shadows to plant seeds of evil. Their purpose, and the ultimate fruit these seeds will bear, will be to breach the dimensional barrier placed by the Mentors after their eons old war to forever banish the Darklings. Fear and evil have the power to strengthen the Darklings across the barrier, enabling them to enter our dimension.
Only the Space Patrol can prevent the shadowy agents of evil and their masters who, even now (thanks to their servants’ efforts) have the power to reach into our dimension with their thoughts, enabling them to affect the weak minded causing them to do their bidding, or to aid their servants work."

i really dont want to clone other games in development either (since they are actully going ot see print and mine is a little more..not going to, although that is the ultimate one-day-perhaps goal). both core command and danger patrol look cool, and this 'genre' seems popular at the moment.

thanks

Sounds like a reasonable basis for a 2 fisted space opera. I like the idea, but i'll be honest and say it sounds like a million other things I've read and played. That's not a bad thing per se though. The genre really requires cheese, so I can imagine it's quite hard to make it original. The universes last best hope and all that. You might want to look at the Night's Dawn trilogy by Peter F Hamilton (Reality Dysfunction etc). Hefty books, but a similar theme (the dead start to invade the universe in a "fun but cheesey" way).

Now all you have to do is came up with a system that suits the genre and you have a basis. But at the moment all you really have is an idea (2 fisted space opera action) that's been done before. You'd do well co try and capture the rediculous action and mad intensity of this type of thing. Not easy, but larger than life is what it's about. You'll wanna check out OcTane I recon? Or "Sci-fi-ify" HeroWars. I think you'll find there are other systems already around that'll work for you, unless you're hell bent on creating your own you'll save a lot of time and pain by just yanking one of those and tweaking it and addingyour own setting.

But don't let any of this stop you trying :)

>Sounds like a reasonable basis for a 2 fisted space opera. I like the idea, but i'll be honest and say it sounds like a million other things I've read and played.

thats the problem - especially with 'cheesy'genres. i prefer that type of game for many reasons (its easier to run, more fun etc).
however it only occured to me after i posted that the idea might sound like a space horror game. its not, the darklings are not the great old ones (or the beings from dark conspiracy). they are more like the mysterons from captain scarlet. i figured they might exist - in their true forms - as disembodied brains; soulless as it were like the beings that wager quatloos in star trek. ultimately the mentors and the darklings are in the sidelines.

>That's not a bad thing per se though. The genre really requires cheese, so I can imagine it's quite hard to make it original. The universes last best hope and all that. You might want to look at the Night's Dawn trilogy by Peter F Hamilton (Reality Dysfunction etc). Hefty books, but a similar theme (the dead start to invade the universe in a "fun but cheesey" way).

a lot of my inspiration comes more from comics than from books. the space patrol arent really superheroes but they have more in common with the green lantern corp or the legion of superheroes than they do with starfleet or the galactic patrol or whatever. essentially their 'schticks' are tech or science based. no lenses used though ;)

>Now all you have to do is came up with a system that suits the genre and you have a basis. But at the moment all you really have is an idea (2 fisted space opera action) that's been done before.

i have more ideas, ive been writing this for months; i just need a better idea of how the antagonists work as well as more ideas to make the genre seem bolder and the setting more - well - cheesy!

>You'd do well co try and capture the rediculous action and mad intensity of this type of thing.

the best way i can do that i can think of is to use the large scale technology (eg death stars and plaent eating ships) that are commonly associated with pulpy SF. Hence my question regarding size and scope.

>Not easy, but larger than life is what it's about. You'll wanna check out OcTane I recon?

im not sure octane is really a good example of a similar genre or style from what i have seen.

>Or "Sci-fi-ify" HeroWars. I think you'll find there are other systems already around that'll work for you, unless you're hell bent on creating your own you'll save a lot of time and pain by just yanking one of those and tweaking it and addingyour own setting.

i have some system ideas in hand; simple and quick, which is what i like. that can be discussed later. i am not going to crystallise rules until i have a better view of the setting and the 'hooks' involved within. (ie what makes my setting better than, say, core command.)


martin
But don't let any of this stop you trying :)


signoftheserpent Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:56 am Post subject: pulp sf ideas - citizens, don your criticism helmets please

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i am trying to write a background for a pulp/classic/cheesy SF action/adventure/space opera style game. i am trying to find a focus for the antagonistic elements within the setting in an interesting way. what i present here is a brief explanation of how the bad guys work; it is very simple buyt as i wrote it i started to wodner if it wasnt t huge ripoff (subconsciously of course!) of deadlands/dark conspiracy. i present it here to solicit opinions and advice on how to make it a little more original. however to explain a couple of things:

1) the good guys are the space patrol - the name shoudl really say it all, however their specific details arent really relevant for now.
2) the mentors and the darklings are essentially yhe arisians and the eddore from lensman; they are cut from the same cloth really. their conflict spawned our galaxy
3) somewhat unrelatedly (is that a word?), i am wondering whether to limit the setting to our galaxy with perhaps a less fantastic tech level (as you might actually find in old SF) or increast the scope to the galaxy at large. there are as you might expect many alien races and the possibility for epic scope is increased with the physical size of the setting, however a smaller size might be easier to handle (similar i think to what the shootingiron people are doing with their danger aptrol game - which coincidentally i discoevered at the same time i started writing this - honest guv!)

here is my very brief little writeup:

"The Darklings were banished from the dark homeworld, the mysterious planet known only as ‘Planet X’ to the negative zone of ‘dimension x’ (from where the planet takes its name).

However since the reappearance of the planet, a cult has arisen that has secretly existed across the galaxy for as long as humanoid life has existed; these are the sinister Black Acolytes.

They fuel the power of the Darklings by harvesting fear and hate across the cosmos, working from the shadows to plant seeds of evil. Their purpose, and the ultimate fruit these seeds will bear, will be to breach the dimensional barrier placed by the Mentors after their eons old war to forever banish the Darklings. Fear and evil have the power to strengthen the Darklings across the barrier, enabling them to enter our dimension.
Only the Space Patrol can prevent the shadowy agents of evil and their masters who, even now (thanks to their servants’ efforts) have the power to reach into our dimension with their thoughts, enabling them to affect the weak minded causing them to do their bidding, or to aid their servants work."

i really dont want to clone other games in development either (since they are actully going ot see print and mine is a little more..not going to, although that is the ultimate one-day-perhaps goal). both core command and danger patrol look cool, and this 'genre' seems popular at the moment.

thanks




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ignore the wierd cut and paste error, er, heh. my computer hates me.

martin

Ah, less "Horror" more "Action". Got ya. Try to track down Mike Alred's "crash Metro", "The Atomics" or "Spaceman" comics if you haven't read them. I think that's what you're about.

The Mysterons (or similar) might be hard to do. How about they can reach through from their dimension and send ideas and thoughts to people here. Not quite the total control that the mysterons exert on people, but suggentions and dreams which create the Cult you speak about? You only ever meet their agents, never the bad guys themselves. Maybe the bad guys have sent through the plans for some kind of robotic slave device or Killbot or something.

I think what you may want to try is something a lil more Dr. Who. As you have Villians aplenty to look to.

In many of these Cheese Universes you have a layer of Antagonists

1) Evil Bad Guys... they are indestructable in an meaningful way, as they always come back next season bigger and badder. They may control one or more factions but rarely if ever work together.

2) Bad-Ass Races... These races themselves are unstoppable and may or may not be controlled by the above but they are impossible to beat except they have one fatal flaw.

3) Lackeys These Serve 1 and 2 above

4) MEmbers of the Black Acolytes who are also members of the various good guy races

5) Lost Races ie Planets that are no longer part of the galactic community but who have not been visited by either side yet.

Once you have your layers down you can get down to thedetails of each group though I would suggest, you may want to leave the the backgrounds of each Big Evil vague, make the Players work to find out the information.

Oh and quasi-legal moral allies and enemies


SMH
ADGBoss

Rich Stokes wrote: Ah, less "Horror" more "Action". Got ya. Try to track down Mike Alred's "crash Metro", "The Atomics" or "Spaceman" comics if you haven't read them. I think that's what you're about.

The Mysterons (or similar) might be hard to do. How about they can reach through from their dimension and send ideas and thoughts to people here. Not quite the total control that the mysterons exert on people, but suggentions and dreams which create the Cult you speak about? You only ever meet their agents, never the bad guys themselves. Maybe the bad guys have sent through the plans for some kind of robotic slave device or Killbot or something.

>How about they can reach through from their dimension and send ideas and thoughts to people here.

thats more or elss what i suggested, yes.

>Maybe the bad guys have sent through the plans for some kind of robotic slave device or Killbot or something.

naturally the bad guys continually devise new schemes for the pc's to foil. the only criticism with the mysteron approach is that it does remove the possibility of a tangible villain. can they ever be defeated? does that then make the setting less appealing.

>I think what you may want to try is something a lil more Dr. Who. As you have Villians aplenty to look to.

im not sure what you mean. i doubt you meant time travel (although i did consider it, but its a whole 'nother ballgame really and opens a can of worms i dont want opened). you mean loads of disparate villains and villain groups. the best way to do that in games is to empower the creativity of the reader so that he comes up with his own villains. the best way i can figure of doing that is to present a set of sterotype villains for the gm to borrow from/be influenced by. the dwonside is that this detracts from a unique setting because you are letting the gm do all the work and i would like the best of both worlds (ie not a metaplot, but not a generic space game).

signoftheserpent wrote: naturally the bad guys continually devise new schemes for the pc's to foil. the only criticism with the mysteron approach is that it does remove the possibility of a tangible villain. can they ever be defeated? does that then make the setting less appealing.

the Black Acolytes were formed after the treacherous human scientist (and former Space Patrol agent) Darklite discoevered the dimensional prison of the darklings - evil disembodied brains possessed of immense psychic force. he gained access to their ancient and piowrful science - a level of sophistication that rivalled the Mentors' own, and was as twisted and dark as the Mentors' was pure and good. these scientific princieples are practised with secrecy among the Acolyte 'covens' that dot and infect the galaxy. they are practised like esoteric lore and are used to further the cause fo the darklings by giving assistance to the already disaffected and evil - such as intergalactic crimelords, or planetary dictators. wherever there are shadows between men and division between ideas, there exists the Black Acolytes.

something like that. comments?

Back from GAMA!

Hi S'serpent,

I like a lot of things about the proposed setting and feel of play; it all makes quick and fun sense to me.

I'm thinking, though, that it would fly very nicely with either Pocket Universe or Fudge. Can you let me know what kind of in-play stuff you have in mind that calls for a system different from these? Which is to say, Purist for System Simulationist design with low handling time?

Best,
Ron

I'm the one responsible for Danger Patrol (S'serpent mentions it in his first post). There are indeed several similarities between my setting and what you're proposing here... but that's to be expected. I'm riffing off of TERMINAL CITY, the ATOMICS, Flash Gordon, and NEXUS, too.

In my setting, the dark cult is called the Stygian Adepts and they live in a sunless crater on the moon. :) Oh, and I have Space 'Force' in addition to the Danger Patrol that protects Rocket City.

When I first started working on DP (yeesh... over 4 years ago, now) I was shocked that no one had tried to do an RPG with a retro-sci-fi setting. Then I saw Terminal City, and Tom Strong, and the revival of the Pulps... it was only a matter of time. Suddenly we had Gear Krieg, Adventure!, and Spaceship Zero. No one is making anything quite like Danger Patrol, though. "Pulp Sci-Fi" is a big field to play around in.

The important thing, I think, is to do your own thing. Find what it is about the material that inspires you, and then go from there.

im answering this question first bcause it might seem like my pet project is a poor man's Danger Patrol. I am very conscious of the apparent similarities (Space Patrol is a simplisitc name that will likely be changed). i would just like to say that i am very interested in Danger Patrol and i amn a huge fan of this genre of games - i prefer 'pulpy' gaming because of the potential for excitemnt and drama, and the wealth of possibilities thar are present. i like superhero games for the same reason. I started writing this at the same time i heard of Danger Patrol and, should my ideas ever be lucky enough to see print, i hope there is room enough for both. :)

>I'm the one responsible for Danger Patrol (S'serpent mentions it in his first post). There are indeed several similarities between my setting and what you're proposing here... but that's to be expected. I'm riffing off of TERMINAL CITY, the ATOMICS, Flash Gordon, and NEXUS, too.

Space Patrol is supposed to be larger in scope; i envisage largse scale drama and action. for example, imagine huge battle fleets facing off against vast star spanning void spiders in their starsilk webs led by super-science enabled (thanks to the legacy of the mentors, which, as with lensman, is essentially wht the Space Patrol itself is). Or imagine vast fleets of humanoid robots capable of space travel bearing down on earth or Pollux Primus - homeworld of the Ongaro, a race of friendly sentient apes. (Those are action based examples, but as they say actions speak louder than words; also i feel its the player who brings the characterisation, acting and roleplaying to such situations, and i want the setting and the rules to accomadate this. Thats a hallmark of a succesful game, not jsut a good one.)

i havent reaed any terminal city, although i believe it was written by dean motter who wrote electropolis. i draw a great deal of inspiration from the art and writing of tom strong, who is a first class example of a Space Patrol agent. Dial in some Green Lantern and you have more of an idea of what i mean. Specifics on the Space Patrol itself will be presented later however, so dont worry too much for now.

>In my setting, the dark cult is called the Stygian Adepts and they live in a sunless crater on the moon. :) Oh, and I have Space 'Force' in addition to the Danger Patrol that protects Rocket City.

The name Black Acolyte, which is not a fixed name, is influenced by the very evoca\tive 'Stygian Adept'. However i feel that the Adepts are likely going to be more mystical than the Acolytes who, although they seem mysterious, shadowy and maybe even somewhat mystical (for want of a better word), really are masters of the dark and twisted science of the darklings. While the mentors use 'good' science, the darklings make use of twisted and evil science - both are quite advanced and powerful and enable their 'users' to accomplish a great deal. The primary tool of the SP is the 'science belt' which is not dissimilar to the green lantern ring (although not as omnipotent). The darklings use scary, dark and twisted designs (picture the torture tabel used on Han Solo in ESB, or the Chronos reflux from Nevermen comics).

The Black Acolytes are primarily agitators and are also the direct mirror opposite of the Space Patrol - they act as agents in the same sort of way, only in ultimate service of evil (ie the darklings). They are the ultimate foes for the SP, but they work by pulkling the striongs of many of the other agencies/forces/races and organisations within the setting. More on them will follow again, as the ideas are changing and crystallising somewhat.

I am also posting messages on the DP message board in order to learn a) the boundaries of the game, and also b) because i intend to buy it because it sounds darned good fun. as i said, i like this sort of game (Adventure! for example, is a huge influence). I would like to think that taking influences from - dare i say my peers! - is acceptable, however i - we - shoudl always strive to be as original as possible in our creative endeavours (thats just a personal ethos, if you like :) ).

>When I first started working on DP (yeesh... over 4 years ago, now) I was shocked that no one had tried to do an RPG with a retro-sci-fi setting.

Ive been a fan of SF all my life; i saw SW when i was 5, started reading comics when i was 7 (especially 2000ad). Im a big kid, i guess! lol.

>Then I saw Terminal City, and Tom Strong, and the revival of the Pulps... it was only a matter of time. Suddenly we had Gear Krieg, Adventure!, and Spaceship Zero. No one is making anything quite like Danger Patrol, though. "Pulp Sci-Fi" is a big field to play around in.

Thats what im saying, Pulp genres are the widest in scope that i can ehink of, and i find it easier to write ideas within pulp genres (perhaps not surprisingly since they are more 'simplistic' - but thats the appeal) and i find those ideas more entertaining - and the main goal when its all said and done is just that: entertainment.

>The important thing, I think, is to do your own thing. Find what it is about the material that inspires you, and then go from there.

Well i hope that you, especilly, will see, if you dont yet, that SP has its own voice. Anyway, i am looking forward to the release of DP, because i will certainly be buying it and not even the death star will be stopping me!

martin

>I like a lot of things about the proposed setting and feel of play; it all makes quick and fun sense to me.

thanks.

>I'm thinking, though, that it would fly very nicely with either Pocket Universe or Fudge. Can you let me know what kind of in-play stuff you have in mind that calls for a system different from these? Which is to say, Purist for System Simulationist design with low handling time?

Briefly (mechanics are by no means finalised in any way; these are just current ideas):

Heroes have the following as traits, which serve broadly as a mixture of attributes and skills (in the traditional sense). Heroes also posess a few Abilities which are categorised by Trait and define exceptional areas of skill possessed by that character (such as crackshot, stunt piloting etc).

SCIENCE; MECHANICS; PILOT; FIGHTING; COMMAND; WILLPOWER and INITIATIVE.

Traits are rated from 1-6, which is also the scale for Difficulty levels.

One further and unique Trait is COURAGE, which is based on the character's highest Trait score and will change during play. (Heroes also have 1 or more Abilities according to their chosen race.)

When making an Action Attempt, the player rolls (relevant trait)d6; the action is succesful if the result of any single die (after being possibly modifed by ABility effects as well as the usual range of conditions that may apply) is => the Difficulty Level.

However, of the Difficulty exceeds the character's current Courage, he gains +1 Courage (or maybe the exact differenmce, i havent decided) after the action is resolved (and regardless of the outcome).

Furthermore, Courage is also the measure of how much damage, exhasution and stress (ie mental and psychological damage) a Hero might take. This will be the most difficult part as the actual scale of Courage is small compared to damage from potential weapons, howver it neednt be an issue.

To answer your broader question, there is no reason other than personal pride and my desire as a system monkey to make my own set of rules. I supose there isnt really any game in existence that cant really make use of any set of rules, with or without much modification. After all even Castlfe Falkenstein has been converted to GURPS and Godlike into d20.

I am not opposed to using a pre existing ruleset, although i amo not familiar with Fudge or Pocket Universe. I have toyed with using Tri Stat to playtest the game and, as a benefit of being in the amaetur stage of design, i can write any set of rules using any exisitng rules system, so there is no reason why i cant write rules or conversions for Tri Stat, Storyteller (based on Adventure, which was another possibility), and Unisystem, which are the most common systems i am most familiar with.

Ultimately it all comes down to what idea works best. I am open to whatever. I guess it all depends on your personal preference, do you personally like to learn new rules systems or not; after all in the marketplace i doubt that any ruleset i choose would be familiar to every potential customer - not even d20.

martin

Hi Martin,

Actually, my concern is one of maximal satisfaction from your perspective. It has nothing to do with marketing or familiarity.

Perhaps this point will clarify my point of view. I think that converting Castle Falkenstein to GURPS destroys Castle Falkenstein as a gaming concept. It is not, in my view, "doing" Castle Falkenstein any more, or if it were, the GURPS rules-set would be so modified that it wouldn't be GURPS any more.

Therefore I disagree with you that one can do "any" role-playing with "any" rules-set, unless the modifications at the social or rules-level are applied so extremely that you cannot be said to be using that rules-set after all.

So the question is, what about your setting or ideas about play are very well-suited to whatever system-ideas you plan? Help me see that, and that's my answer. I am not suggesting that you shouldn't build your own system. I'd love to see it explained further.

However, it strikes me that your lack of familiarity with the range of possible systems might be involved. GURPS, Tri-Stat, the later versions of the Hero System, Rolemaster, and a few others are, in essence, the same game. However, both Fudge and Pocket Universe achieve similar goals (fun, consistent, and customizable genre play) using very different approaches to dice and how to read them. I highly recommend reading both of them.

When you do, then you can possibly come up with even better-fitting mechanics for your own game.

Best,
Ron

>Perhaps this point will clarify my point of view. I think that converting Castle Falkenstein to GURPS destroys Castle Falkenstein as a gaming concept. It is not, in my view, "doing" Castle Falkenstein any more, or if it were, the GURPS rules-set would be so modified that it wouldn't be GURPS any more.

personally i prefer games to have individual game systems for reasons that castle falkenstein best illustrates. generic systems are advantageous but somewhat soulless. thats just me. i would ideally like to have my own system for SP, but what decision i ultimately take will be affected by playtesting as well as trends in the marketplace. if it remains a non-professional product then there is no reason why a game, say i put it on the bet, cant have some pages for conversions for other, popular systems (such as those i have mentioned).

>Therefore I disagree with you that one can do "any" role-playing with "any" rules-set, unless the modifications at the social or rules-level are applied so extremely that you cannot be said to be using that rules-set after all.

well its a simplistic statement, but, by way of an example, i would imagine that the forthcoming Babylon 5 d20 game could exist in any of the popular systems available today. whether it would succeed or not is another matter. as i said my personal preference is for unique rules that are made specifically for that setting and with that setting and style of play in mind.

>So the question is, what about your setting or ideas about play are very well-suited to whatever system-ideas you plan? Help me see that, and that's my answer. I am not suggesting that you shouldn't build your own system. I'd love to see it explained further.

well the ideas i presented are the core of what the rules will be. i havent taken them further because i am still working on the setting and because the rules are meant to be light anyway. in my view the rules are designed to work with the setting as the setting - at least here - comes first.

really the Courgae mechanic is the best answer to your question; it is designed to allow players to act heroically by rewarding and empowering them (in many ways, including physically) through taking what might be called heroic actions. clearly the setting is one of high adventure, melodrama and cliffhanger derring-do. i envision adventures involving heroes facing off against impossible odds in a dazzling array of situations like a rollercoaster ride. when they take chances along those lines (which in game terms means attempting actions with high difficulties) they gain courage. in combat for example, a character may try to do something desperate to save the life of a friend - imagine him attempting a very difficult action with his last ounce of strength - that action attempt will likely grant him the extra Courage he needs to save from dying if the foes hit him during the attempt.

hopefull yhthat will answer your question. i am conscious of not making a system thats 'nifty' for its own sake. i like gimmicks but i want this game to be asy and funb to play with complexoty in the right areas.

>However, it strikes me that your lack of familiarity with the range of possible systems might be involved.

i am aware of the systemes that i have played or been exposed to. i havent sought to do any extensive research into whatever systms may be available. its not important at the moment anyway, i have been more interested in my own system ideas.

>GURPS, Tri-Stat, the later versions of the Hero System, Rolemaster, and a few others are, in essence, the same game. However, both Fudge and Pocket Universe achieve similar goals (fun, consistent, and customizable genre play) using very different approaches to dice and how to read them. I highly recommend reading both of them.

well if i can get hold of them then we will see. it isnt currently a priority. there is no hurry :)

>When you do, then you can possibly come up with even better-fitting mechanics for your own game.

well i take influences from anywhere and everywhere. a good game system is a good game system and as such (and as a gamer and a designer of sorts) i have an interest in how it works. that was partly why i got into Godlike (i like Greg Stolze's ideas anyway, although i fear he is a bit gimmicky).

martin

signoftheserpent wrote: i am aware of the systemes that i have played or been exposed to. i havent sought to do any extensive research into whatever systms may be available. its not important at the moment anyway, i have been more interested in my own system ideas.

>I recommend these titles to anyone that wants to design an RPG today:

i had a more indepth reply but then my browser crashed! typical. instead ill post a list of games i own that influence me.

adventure, abberant, all flesh must be eaten, ars magica, buffy, blue planet, castle falkenstein, blood of heroes, CoC, deadlands, dangerquest, dark matter, comnspiracy x, exalted, godlike, golden heroes, feng shui, lord of the rings, mage, milleniums end, paranoia, shadowrun, silver age sentinels, star trek (lug), star wars (d6), in nomine, underground, unknown armies, underworld, WoD, terra primate. not to mention other games i have played but dont own including the old fasa Dr Who game (wish i hadnt swapped that when i was a lad), Kult, Nephilim, over the edge, fading suns...i could go on but my self-indulgence circuits are overloading.

essentially i take your point and agree entirely. certainly game design and writing itself are not easily learnt or indeed mastered.

>And read all the Robin Laws you can. That guy (imho) is the best designer working in the industry today. You'll learn a lot from his stuff: Feng Shui, Rune, Dying Earth, Hero Wars, Pantheon.

Rune was an intereseting experiment and an idea that could work, but i dont think Rune was the best example. I do however think that Robin is a very good designer indeed. for me and my peers feng shui shook up the way we play games a lot more than games such as ars magica or vampire. its one of the reasons for taking the approach i do with games today, including SP.

>Writing an RPG is a lot like other kinds of writing. If you don't read it, how can you write it? If you're writing poetry, read great poets. If you're writing a novel, read great novelists. If you're writing an RPG, read great games.

i agree entirely.

martin

signoftheserpent wrote: >Rune was an intereseting experiment and an idea that could work, but i dont think Rune was the best example.

>I don't want to turn this thread into a Rune discussion, but I wonder why you think Rune "isn't the best example." Or rather, isn't the best example of what?

It just didnt work for me. i have nothing against the game other than that. my players and i didnt really get on with it. I think it's a really good idea but Run itself didn't pull it off. I felt it got a bit too crunchy for what it was trying to emulate (which is a rather simple genre - fps shooter). Maybe that's just the way it needed to be, but that's my opinion. I have the game, so i am familiar with it.

>It's the farthest thing from a "design experiment" that I can imagine.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that it was set up that way (and neither am i slating it), i was merely alluding to it being a rather different style of game - which is good. I just didnt like it in the end. I read it for the reasons youve already mentioned, but at the end of the day in actual play in session with my wekly gaming buddies, it didnt work - for us at least; what else can i say.

I think the point Serpent is trying to make is that Actual Play for Rune isn't that similar to what he has in mind for Space Patrol. Rune has a lot of what you might call "meta rules" that go beyond what a "normal" RPG is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that Space Patrol is intended to be a standard "1 GM + Some Players" kind of affair. Nothing wrong with that, but that's not what RUNE is. However well Rune succeeds at it's design objective, that's not what SP's about. Ditto Pantheon. Feng Shui is much closer, but I still think as I mentioned earlier that Hero Wars is really quite close to what Space Patrol needs as a system: 2 fisted tales, drama, minimum handling time, easy and flexible character gen etc etc. I could go on, but there's no point. Basically it does action the way you see it on TV shows like Xena or VIP, I'm sure there's an equivalent Sci Fi show (stargate?), but I'm not watching it right now.

My advice to Serpent is that, dude, you really ought to check out Hero Wars and Fudge. The HeroWars main book is about 10 quid and despite the awful cover it's fantastic. Fudge is free, Open Source (kinda) and despite my own (mostly aesthetic) misgivings about the system it's not going to take you much work to adapt it to fit your own ideas as already posted. Go to FudgeRPG.com and read it a bit. Then think of the stats you've chosen and how they fit in. Fudge's main strength in this case is that it's basically not really a game system, but a kinda "metasystem" which you can use as a framework/toolkit to build upon, and I think that it at least deserves a quick look before you try creating a system from first principles, especially when it sounds like you're aiming for similar goals.

>I think the point Serpent is trying to make is that Actual Play for Rune isn't that similar to what he has in mind for Space Patrol. Rune has a lot of what you might call "meta rules" that go beyond what a "normal" RPG is.

yes thats correct; if this was what i was being asked then sorry i didnt realise. SP is setup in the tradirtional way, players play members of the SP (whome we can call Heroes) while the GM is the GM in the conventional sense. The game is not meeant to be anything like Run whatsoever, although i repsect Rune for what it attempts to do (nuff said i think).

>Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that Space Patrol is intended to be a standard "1 GM + Some Players" kind of affair.

correct.

>Nothing wrong with that, but that's not what RUNE is. However well Rune succeeds at it's design objective, that's not what SP's about.

also correct.

>Ditto Pantheon. Feng Shui is much closer, but I still think as I mentioned earlier that Hero Wars is really quite close to what Space Patrol needs as a system: 2 fisted tales, drama, minimum handling time, easy and flexible character gen etc etc.

its got more in common with feng shui and d6 star wars than say Rune ort any similar game. Its just a scifi rpg in the pulpy mould really. If youre looking for something tha reinvents the wheel in perhaps the way Rune does then SP isnt that kind of game. I have no desire to be wheelbreaking and innovative just for the sake of it; in SP the setting and the drama (ie the action and the adventure) are paramount. Of course i would ike to be able to devise a ruleset that makes people say 'hey thats cool'.

>I could go on, but there's no point. Basically it does action the way you see it on TV shows like Xena or VIP, I'm sure there's an equivalent Sci Fi show (stargate?), but I'm not watching it right now.

if you want a visual reference look to the INdiana Jones movies for the kind of 'rollercoaster ride that an SP adventure seeks to invoke). Of course players can dow aht they like.

>My advice to Serpent is that, dude, you really ought to check out Hero Wars and Fudge. The HeroWars main book is about 10 quid and despite the awful cover it's fantastic.

I have seen Hero Wars, i dont own it (much as i would like i cant afford every game ;) ). I am somewhat familiar with how it works, although I have never played it. Like I said I am open to all good ideas within the industry and the hobby. A good game is a good game.

>Fudge is free, Open Source (kinda) and despite my own (mostly aesthetic) misgivings about the system it's not going to take you much work to adapt it to fit your own ideas as already posted.

I was under the impression that it was free no longer. I have never seen it any any LGS.

>Go to FudgeRPG.com and read it a bit. Then think of the stats you've chosen and how they fit in.

Well as I said, thats not a priority for now. I have no desire to get ahead of myself, and i doubt the Fudge stuff wil vanish overnight ;)

This project isnt going to be rushed, it's being taken seriously.

>Fudge's main strength in this case is that it's basically not really a game system, but a kinda "metasystem" which you can use as a framework/toolkit to build upon, and I think that it at least deserves a quick look before you try creating a system from first principles, especially when it sounds like you're aiming for similar goals.

we shall see, thanks.

Something you might want to consider is what your game's 'gimmicks' are. At the moment the setting seems a little generic to me. I think you need to come up with something to show why this game is special.

Perhaps try coming up with a few example characters to show what the PCs will be like. I know thats what I want to see in a pulp game - what KIND of pulp is it.

How serious does it take itself? What are the precedents for what is possible? How moraly ambiguous can the cahracters get before becoming unacceptable? How black and white are the conflicts?

>Something you might want to consider is what your game's 'gimmicks' are. At the moment the setting seems a little generic to me. I think you need to come up with something to show why this game is special.

well, respectfully, you havent seen a great deal of the background. :)

That said, there will be a certain amount of 'genericity' to it by the very nature of the setting. However there really aren't many games of this type. Danger Patrol and Core Command (which itself seems very different anyway - fortunately) are the only two in the same genre. Star Wars perhaps, maybe Adventure and Trinity, but they dont come too close (Trinity for instance is much harder).

The influences for this game range from everything from Lensman to Dan Dare to Captain Scarlet to Star Wars to Tom Strong to Nevermen to the Last Starfighter and many others. I take inspiration from anything i feel inspired by - music, games, art, whatever!

>Perhaps try coming up with a few example characters to show what the PCs will be like. I know thats what I want to see in a pulp game - what KIND of pulp is it.

Well, I mention TOm Strong because he is a good example of an SP agent - a Science Hero (as the comic dubs him) not a Superhero.

I can give you a brief overview of the player-races (there are others, but they arent all members of the Interstellar Accord - which is the main good guy galactic force). Aside from Humans you have:

Alphans - blue skinned, hairless, tall, serene and pragmatic. They hail from Alpha Centauri and are very adept in the scientific disciplines (such as the Alphan Logic Trance which allows them to concentrate their will on any problem to best solve it). They are thinkers from a culture that places intellect highest (they do _not_ hide their emotions, they are just considered and measured in their actions).

Ongaro - sentient apes from the forest world of Pollux Primus. Their civilisation is martial based and they place great value in loyalty and comradeship. They are fierce and powerful warriors when aroused and are quick tempered, but doggedly loyal. Their civilisation evolved with the great Silverback Trees that fill their world and mark their population centres.

Sky Lords - winged and feather-headed are the Sky Lords of Izar who occupy skyborne cities. Like the Ongaro they value loyalty and they also have a strict code of honour. Their society is ruled by a monarchy and is class based. Very regal people who are naturally capable of flight.

Pacificans - humanoid water breathers with webbed hands, feet and a set of gills that enables their unique skill. Theirs is an industrial society built on the ocean beds of the watery world of Mare Pacifica. They can exist in water and air, but tolerance of the latter is limited to certain lengths of time.

>How serious does it take itself? What are the precedents for what is possible?

it takes itself seriously; it isnt played as a joke and its not designed to be ironic or humourous as such. however the retro nature of the setting may seem funny to some.

Does your last sentence refer to the technology levels in the game?

>How moraly ambiguous can the cahracters get before becoming unacceptable? How black and white are the conflicts?

about the same level as Star Wars. Good is good and evil is evil and han solo is han solo. This is classic pulp SF, it is based on the morality you might expect from the genre. Villains are villains with galactic scale plans for domination and the Heroes are the unwavering opposition who believe in their cause utterly, no matter how hard the trials they face. Again it isnt ironic or angst ridden.

This is just a brief set of answers. More will follow as it is set down and more thoroughly codified.

Patience, my young padawan.

well, respectfully, you havent seen a great deal of the background. :)

>Sorry, didn't mean to offend.

im not offended; such is the power of the smiley! i just wanted to make it clear since gamers have a tendency to expect a given game to sometimes be something that it isnt. While players can and should be able to modify their games any way they choose, im not convinced such people should expect that a game based on xyz should accomadate abc as well - if you catch my drift.

>The races you've got there are actually very good at explaining how pulpy the universe is and I've got a better idea of what you're going for. It certainly seems like a solid setting for adventure.

glad to hear it; thanks.

>What would the play structure be like? Do the space patrols act as wandering lawmen or are they given specific missions by command? I think the latter would work very well with a two-fisted pulp game, giving it a very 'mission of the week' feel.

This is an interesting question that has concened me for a while. Given the pulpy nature of the game, i found that trying to establish a realistic form for the organisation of the Patrol itself seemed contrary to said pulpy nature. Essentially the SP itself is played loose; there is no rigid command structure - the Patrolmen are generally equal within a pc group - this i think is essential. The SP itself is somewhat autonomous; it is commanded by a Commander in chief who gives the heroes their mission briefs and liases with the governments of the Accord. Patrolmen are recreuited as exceptional men in their field from wherever they may come from; typically such people are military specialists, scientists, etc.

Generally the adventures default to a mission of the week - to borrow your phrase - style, although the loose nature of the SP makes it easy to accomadate other styles.

In short the SP is a mixture of galactic policeforce/fbi as well as secret agents and military force. They are based centrally in what is called Asimov Station which orbits the earth anf houses the HQ and the Commander. The 'Hector' computer database is located here. Hector (Heuristc seies 3 Computer) is the amusing, pithy and british sounding AI that contains the wealth of SP information. hecotr is a 'character' in the grand traditon of threepio, that thing worn by tweekie in buck rogers as well as HAL 9000 (although less homicidal). the SP has access to a great deal of advanced technology, thanks to the Mentors, including its own military fleet. they arent too far remoeved from the Rangers in B5 in may respects.

Space Patrol: Galactic History

Then:

The Mentors and the Darklings existed before the birth of our galaxy. In fact their conflict – like their civilisations – was by that time already old. Both were diametrically opposed and highly advanced cultures whose differences could not be recognised and whose conflict characterised their evolution to the point where neither race could remember a time when they were not at war.
The event that triggered the birth of our galaxy was the crescendo of this great conflict. While safely ensconced within their homebase, the planet Agartha, the Darklings brought about the destruction of the Mentor homeworld with such force that the destroyed the entire cosmos. This they knew would be the result and this they believed was the only way to bring an end to the war.
Using their own highly advanced science they had fortified the planet core and sealed their civilisation safely within. The cataclysm caused a chain reaction that resulted in the birth of an entire galaxy – our galaxy. Agartha safely weathered the storm while the Mentor homeworld was destroyed. Agartha itself was the only thing to survive – the outer core of the planet was reduced to a toxic and corrosive atmosphere. The Darklings cared not for the devastation they had caused, nor for the scale upon which it was wrought; they only cared that their hated enemies were no more.
Or so they believed.
The Darklings emerged from their base countless ages later when the worlds of our galaxy had formed and life was promising. As the clear dominant species of the cosmos, they travelled far and wide investigating the new realm and in doing so they left their vile seed on many worlds. They knew (great indeed was their science) that one world, in time (for time in the measure of beings such as the Darklings was measured on a greater scale), would rise to rival even their power. This planet was earth and thus the influence they left on the burgeoning and evolving life there was greatest of all.
Meanwhile in another dimension of space and time the enemies of the Darklings mustered themselves having survived the apocalypse by transcending into Thoughtspace. The Mentors had reached the pinnacle of physical evolution by the time of the Darkling attack and their incredible mental powers had allowed them to discern their enemies’ plan unseen. At the moment of destruction the Mentors abandoned their homeworld by transcending to that plane of pure thought energy they call Thoughtspace.
Realising they must act (and yet repulsed by thought of visiting destruction – even on their enemies) the Mentors migrated temporarily into normal space arriving near the vile planet of Agartha. Their combined thought power was enough to banish Agartha from normal space into another dimension, a dark dimension - ‘X’ – where they would remain until the end of time when both races would have their final reckoning (as foreseen by the inscrutable Mentors).
Once their task was complete, the Mentors saw that they had one final mission to accomplish before returning to Thoughtspace; they sought to do what they could to remove the blemish of Darkling influence on the young, innocent, planets of the cosmos. They felt something of a responsibility toward the civilisations that would emerge on these worlds, especially the race that would one day call itself humanity.
Unfortunately while they were able to all but remove traces of Darkling evil from all worlds, their influence had grown too deep and too ingrained on the planet earth. To counter this, the Mentors introduced their own influence, of equal strength, into the evolutionary mix. When the time came, humanity would be ready to combat the evil influence of the Darklings. The Mentors could see that the Darklings sought to ‘breed’ evil into humans causing them to sow the seeds of their own downfall before they could become a threat to them. In return, the Mentors own influence would cause the evolution of humans with strength and courage to fight that influence and grow beyond it.
In time the Mentors left our galaxy, satisfied they had done all they could to prevent the spread of evil from infecting the newborn cultures. They retired to Thoughtspace. Humanity and his interstellar cousins grew up to look at the stars and one day to reach them; that day is now.

Now:

Earth has survived three near catastrophic world wars. Each conflict a tiny microcosm of the great conflict that gave birth to the galaxy; each time humanity returned, stronger than before.
At the end of the third world war humanity had two choices: live or die. The war was devastating changing much of the world on every level. In some places the land would be scarred for centuries. One world government was introduced as military technology was propelled into the only direction left to humanity to travel in – the journey into space. Whereas the steps taken in that direction before had been bay steps, mankind was now ready to claim the stars.
As a result of the technological advances made during the war, the prominent scientist Dr Rupert Adair and his business associate, Argo Darklite, were able to construct the first faster than light engine. This was the catalyst for man’s decision to move into space for real, and this signified the turning of the page for humanity solidifying the one world ethic.
In time humanity would colonise places within the solar system on worlds that were once as mythical as their namesakes. He would also make friends with many alien races who were also finding their feet in the vastness of the heavens. Together they would forget the Interstellar Accord, an alliance of prosperity friendship and power that would be the foundation for the stand against the Darklings who would not remain hidden forever. It would also be Dr Adair’s on, Sam, who would form the Space Patrol to combat the return of the Darklings and the treachery of Argo Darklite that would lead to the formation of the Patrol’s greatest enemies: the Black Acolytes.
It was Rupert Adair who first made contact with the Mentors, while his son was still a cadet in the Earth Space Force. While testing a prototype for his FTL engine, he was able to travel further than any human had ever travelled before, to the edge of the galaxy. Piloting the small ship alone Adair felt overwhelmed by the vastness of space and the distance he had travelled as he sat facing a great field of energy. This was the Frontier, an energy nexus between normal space and Thoughtspace. While his instruments told him he had travelled to the recorded edge of the galaxy, they could not make neither head nor tail of the energy field his own eyes told him was present. They registered something, but that something was apparently inscrutable. It was then that he heard a message, accompanied by light pulsing in time to a calm, deep and disarmingly human voice.
This voice spoke clearly in English enabling him to understand everything he was being told. He was instructed to relax as forced unseen brought his ship slowly into the Frontier.
Dr Adair was subsequently brought into the unearthly realm of the Mentors. They informed him that his journey had been preordained and that he was the result of an ancient heritage they had created long ago. They also explained that his son who would go on to be the most important and powerful human being who ever lived would finally complete this progeny – and the most just.
Adair’s mind could barely comprehend the experience as it translated the presence of the Mentors into something more coherent: beings – men, dressed in white robes standing within great white halls. Yet at the same time something within his very core knew this was the truth and that the very fate of the galaxy depended upon it being true.
The experience seemed to last an eternity and yet be concluded almost as soon as it had begun. Adair found himself back aboard the ship staring at the energy nexus (glowing with less intensity now), the words ‘we will help you’ rang in his ears. He checked his instruments; they had recorded no passage of time or movement. Oddly they did record a vast input of data that filled the files almost to bursting: the Mentors had equipped Adair with a wealth of incredible scientific knowledge to help him against an ancient evil called the Darklings. They had also instructed him never to go to a planet called Agartha and to beware his friend, Darklite.
This advice was heeded, fortunately. Darklite, who was already seeking to exploit the brave new world of the galaxy, proved treacherous indeed financing a mercenary expedition to uncharted regions of space and listening to alien tales of a fabled lost world; mention was made of the name Agartha. The Darklings had returned, their world had phased back into reality, now all they required was willing servants to make their power complete. Accompanying them, much to the dismay of Adair who secretly hoped the warnings about Darklite would prove groundless, was Darklite himself who had grown greedy and ambitious after the success of the FTL drive. He craved the opportunities for riches and profit that the stars offered.
The mercenary expedition found Agartha, a world that made no sense; its deadly atmosphere played havoc with the sensors of all approaching craft while deep within the eyes of the Darklings watched all intruders. Pleased were the minds behind those eyes for while the mercenaries themselves were worthless humanoids, Darklite was the true prize, for he was the true culmination of their own ancient breeding program. He alone survived the journey into Agartha itself, a city sealed within the iron core of the most inhospitable and dismal world in the universe. He alone survived the hideous genetic and biological experiments of the Darklings that increased his mental capacity (at the cost of his humanity). He was the first and the leader under the yoke of the Darklings of Agartha, of the Black Acolytes whom he was ordained to form, just as Samuel Adair was destined to form the Mentor-influenced Space Patrol.
As Darklite completed the plans of the Darklings, the clarion call of darkness was heralded and others were brought into the dark fold of the Black Acolytes. It was the desire of the Darklings that the Acolytes make use of their advanced technology and go into the galaxy to work in secret and shadow, undermining the works of the Interstellar Accord and other agencies for good – especially and ultimately the Space Patrol. Chaos and terror were the goals of the Darklings who sought to eventually claim a galaxy they had broken as their first stepping stone towards assaulting their hated enemies whom they could not reach, safe in Thoughtspace – a realm beyond the perception of even the Darklings who are too evil and tainted to breach it.

The Space Patrol:

Dr Rupert Adair died before the Space Patrol was formed; he lived a long and productive life making much use of the scientific knowledge he learned from the Mentors in order to benefit earth in its dealings with other cultures. These relationships strengthened over time leading to the Interstellar Accord between Earth, Pollux Primus, Alpha Centauri, Izar and Mare Pacifica. Other worlds had been contacted and other races encountered, but not all accepted or wanted any part of the Accord. It quickly became clear that the Accord was necessary; there were corners of the galaxy that were dark in more ways than one. Dr Adair was buried on the farthest friendly world that man had encountered in a modest wilderness grave, but not before he had passed the secret of the Mentors on to his own son.
Sam learned of his true heritage from the vast databases of the Mentors and the words of his father who related his experience to him. Sam was the only other person who knew of Rupert’s experience at the edge of the galaxy. These revelations proved timely as the Black Acolytes made their presence felt in the solar system, revealing themselves as a force to be reckoned with – unknown and deadly marauders striking at archaeological sites on Mars where Sam Adair had discovered the remains of an ancient starship buried beneath the surface.
Acolyte vessels arrived out of nowhere and struck at the camps destroying as much of the site as they could. They knew what was there, even if the scientists from earth didn’t: the remains of an ancient Mentor craft that had survived the destruction of the big bang and had become fossilised within Mars.
The attack came as Adair was within the bowels of the ship itself; it seemed only he could gain access into the ships innards where he discovered a strange looking belt stored within a beam of white light, right at the core of the vessel. As he took it he heard the voices of the Mentors, jst as hie father described. They explained that he would be safe aboard the ship, but that this was just the beginning. While the ground shook around him, and the vessl itself threatened to cave in he learned of the struggle between the Mentors and the Darklings and how the Darklings had returned. He learned of his part to play in their great struggle.
He emerged after the attack had ceased to find total destruction around him – only he had survived. In his had, the strange belt the Mentors had given him, which he learned was a source of great power. The time had come, the Darklings had returned and their forces had made the first move.
Thus was born the Space Patrol, an agency of the finest intergalactic recruits from amongst the worlds of the Interstellar Accord, armed with the Science Belts and technology of the Mentors. Their secret mission was to combat the forces of evil in the galaxy and frustrate the Darklings at every turn while bringing peace and order to the galaxy. The technology and the science of the Mentors was stored within Asimov Station, a vast orbital construct built from the ruins of the Martian dig. The technology included the secret of the incredible Science Belt replicated and worn by each Patrolman to aid in his work and fuelled by the pure thought energy of the Mentors that they themselves had long ago stored like a battery within the sun.
The Space Patrol has become the shinign beaecon and symbol of the Interstellar Accord. A weapon of incredible power tempered by the wisdom of the Mentors. Sam Adair’s time has passed, he is in his latter years and now serves as President of the Accord itself and remains stationed on the space station HQ of the Accord where he now continues to serve the galaxy. Brave new Patrolman join the service every day, just in time to meet the continued and insidious threat of the Black Acolytes – not to mention the other perils of the stars. Their job is as vast as the galaxy, and even youngsters have a chance to join – as Junior Patrolmen in the galaxy-wide Space Kids club (membership of which includes a free Space Patrol game).
The time for adventure is now.