The following thoughts have been stewing around to a greater or lesser degree for the past few months.

Premise:
1) That the Forge is a truly unique location on the web with information, discussions, and atmosphere not easily found elsewhere.
2) That the Forge as a location is a valuable site that active members wish to ensure continues without interruption for reasons as trivial as hosting costs.
3) That several members of the Forge get, have gotten, and will continue to get concrete financial benefit from the Forge and participating here:
a) either as the result of business or business related exposure generated through game forums.
b) or as the result of ideas on game design that were discovered here and made their way into a finished product that is now being sold.
4) That even without actual financial gain, many members get direct benefits from increasing the enjoyment of their personal play, or just the enjoyment from participating.
5) That it is unfair for those who get direct tangible benefit from the Forge to expect the site to be funded by others indefinitely.
6) That "please donate" buttons generally don't work in the long run unless members are constantly reminded and guilted into it. And noone wants to see regular PBS-style annoying pledge drives.
7) That "for pay" internet sites have several negatives, not the least of which is discouraging participation from casual members (which would be devastating).
8) That it is reasonable to expect that those who get the most benefit from the Forge be the ones to foot the bill for the Forge.
9) That there is no way to truly measure who actually gets the most benefit, but that number of posts is probably as accurate a proxy as we are likely to get given that becoming one of the top posters on the site requires an extended period of involvement and interaction which is not likely unless the poster views the activity as beneficial; and that the more beneficial that activity is, the more often the poster is likely to engage in it.

Therefor:

I propose that since a year consists of 12 months, and that webhosting and related fees are generally paid by the month, that the top 12 posters of the Forge each committ to taking 1 month and pay the webhosting fees (which I believe to be about $40 from previous threads) via the current donations button.

Alternatively one could expand to the top 24 posters with 2 members per month donating 1/2 the cost each.

I personally do not feel that $40 per year is too onerous a cost to be asked to shoulder for the benefits that we get from the Forge, especially that the leading posters get.

As to practical application, I think the easiest and least record keeping intensive method is simply to start at the top of the Total Posts list and assign a month based on the corresponding position number (i.e. Ron being January, Mike H, being February, Me being March, etc.) I don't suspect that the positions change all that frequently at the top level (though they might if expanded to the top 24).

Thoughts?

Speaking as someone not quite in the top 24, I'd be willing to pay if someone above me couldn't.

-Vincent

Interesting idea. I'd be willing, personally.

I also think, though, that the most recent pledge drive from NPR here in Chicago pointed out something interesting. Instead of shooting for a dollar amount, they went for number of people signing up, regardless of how much was donated per signup. My impression is that they were promoting the sense of community rather than an individual sense of economic-importance, and that it worked pretty well.

Perhaps some sort of scheduled Forge Drive along these lines (although not based on recruiting) might be conceivable.

Best,
Ron

For what it's worth -

A month/year is basically my personally-imposed Forge donation commitment. Since the monthly fees change (go up) when Forge traffic goes up, I guess this can be a little tricky, but - the basic idea is cool by me.

Gordon

This is going to be a shocker: I don't like the idea of a Forge Drive.

I know, I know ... I've actually asked people to contribute to the Forge in the past. I've hated doing it, and only done so when my own finances forced the issue. I took on this commitment over two years ago when the ball got dropped on The Forge's and the Sorcerer website's hosting, and think of it as such: a commitment.

That said, some people do contribute. On average, I have to shell about about half of the $40 hosting cost each month, which ain't bad. If people did want to contribute more, that'd be great, but I could settle for some of the following:

- You can get a subdomain at the Forge (whatever.indie-rpgs.com) for $60/year. That's everything paid if I had 8 people do this - and they all paid me, which has been a problem in the past.

- You can host your games on the Forge Bookshelf for $40/10 MB of games/year. That's everything paid if 12 people did this - and they all paid me, again.

- You can use my name (crnixon) as a reference if you host yourself with Dreamhost. 10% of what you pay is credited to the Forge account.

Now, if people wanted to organize a payment method to me, that'd be awesome. I'd be more appreciative than you can imagine - my new job pays barely above Kinko's wages. The thing I want to avoid is anyone ever feeling pressured to pay.

Greetings,

It's a interesting idea but, really, should the burden of defraying support costs be laid strictly upon the shoulders of those who happen to post the most?

(Most SysOps from the long long ago would probably rally around your flag on this point! Seems logical. Sadly, seldom worked that way. :( )

There are ways to support a board and then there are ways to support a board. Some might argue that posting is supporting the board, or providing links for the resource page is supporting the board, or... but of course that is neither here nor there and not why I decided to respond.

So, why did I start this post?

Because I think Mr. Nixon has a very valid point, especially this part:

5) That it is unfair for those who get direct tangible benefit from the Forge to expect the site to be funded by others indefinitely.

Kester Pelagius wrote: Greetings,


Just a thought. Anyone else have any ideas?


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

Because I think Mr. Nixon has a very valid point, especially this part:

5) That it is unfair for those who get direct tangible benefit from the Forge to expect the site to be funded by others indefinitely.

What I have seen on other sites is having a membership tier system where free membership is restricted in some way and/or pay membership has certain priviledges.

Exactly what priviledges could be reserved for pay membership on the Forge, I have no idea.

Clinton's already hosting me, but, as poster #33 (as of recently), $20 is a miniscule amount of money compared to the enjoyment and benefit I get from the Forge. But Clinton's also right that having a drive or pressuring people to donate isn't really appropriate.

What we need to do is build a culture of appreciating and reciprication among the most frequent users. Maybe we start a tradition of donating the first money we get from selling a product to the Forge, since this community helped the project along. Maybe we remember to give the Forge a Christmas present. Whatever. It's just about being aware of the needs that exist and helping make others aware of it.

If we can do that, Clinton should never have to worry about money.

Greetings Valamir,

Valamir wrote:

Because I think Mr. Nixon has a very valid point, especially this part:

5) That it is unfair for those who get direct tangible benefit from the Forge to expect the site to be funded by others indefinitely.

I said this not Clinton. I am reasonably certain that Clinton would never have made this suggestion himself.

A very simple suggestion. Why not put a small custom-made "support the forge" button on the main forge forum? Right now you have to click "about the forge" then scroll down and find out about the donation stuff. Why not have a small, tasteful button somewhere at the top of the pages?

At the risk of slitting my own throat, let me point out that "total posts" is not really a good measure of who is currently getting the most benefit from the Forge.

I say slitting my own throat, because I note that I, who joined in August of 2002, am now the #32 most frequent poster with 384 posts in that time (this will make 385, I presume, but I'm still a dozen behind #31). I also note that only seven people above me on the list were also registered in 2002, all of them before me. That suggests that I have a greater frequency of posts than a lot of people, as I'm catching up with them.

I'm certainly not the current most active user, though--I note that Chris Lerich is at #37, with 310 posts already, so I suspect that he'll pass me before the year is out, certainly--he registered in January of this year, so is posting roughly three or four posts to every one of mine (assuming I've remained consistent in my posting rate).

But does that mean that either of us are getting more out of the site than those who are not posting at all? I have gotten something from my visits here. I've been given reason to think in new directions such that I've written some articles I might not otherwise have written (including the Game Ideas Unlimited piece that went up today, largely from thoughts I posted on character generation here). There has been some traffic from here to the Multiverser web site, presumably to find out more about the game, although whether any of those visitors ordered copies somewhere is more than I know. I do get one thing from this that is important to me: the recognition within the gaming community that Multiverser is still alive (in this industry, people are always saying that you're out of business or out of print, unless there's solid evidence somewhere to the contrary).

Otherwise, I think of what I do here as mainly contributing something.

That, and, to quote Augustine as well as I remember, I am one of those who by writing profits and by profiting writes, so having the interaction with others here stimulates my thoughts.

I don't know that I have $40 to give. I know that sounds hard, but I listen to NPR too, and I haven't supported them ever. I wish Dr. Who was still on PBS around here, but I can't complain because I never had the money to support public television. It seems I'm always landing in jobs that don't pay so well. I'd love to support The Forge, but my wife would kill me. We've got to replace a dying refrigerator and fix the brakes on the car, at least, not to mention that the computer isn't doing so well anymore and needs some work.

--M. J. Young

Footnote: As to M. J. Young Net, Valdron Inc paid for everything--domain, 500 meg space, unlimited bandwidth, a lot more stuff. It cost less than a magazine ad, I gather, and they figure it's good advertising--quite a lot of the traffic that reaches Valdron comes from those pages.

Jack Spencer Jr wrote: What I have seen on other sites is having a membership tier system where free membership is restricted in some way and/or pay membership has certain priviledges.

Exactly what priviledges could be reserved for pay membership on the Forge, I have no idea.

I think an occasional reminder to support the Forge -- like this thread is, in some ways -- and a more easily-found, accessible "tip jar", as previously suggested, is the way to go.

Hi there,

Whoa, some policy needs to get unveiled here.

Clinton and I will never, ever permit any kind of "two-tier" Forge information based on donations. We decided that a while ago and kept the amounts that people donated, and the information of who donated at all, completely private.

[As a side note, I happen even to disapprove of making users' number of posts public knowledge, as I think it causes serious social issues already.]

Ralph's idea interests me, but I see some difficulties regarding #1 that might crop up.

The Drive, perhaps, is just too radio/PBS for something like the Forge. Oh well, it's not the first notion I've had that didn't fly.

So, in essence, I think I'm with Kirt (xiombarg). I should point out that we have had a Donation button at the top of the page in the past. Clinton and I will discuss whether we want to put it back.

We also might bat around some ideas or maybe take a scalpel to Ralph's suggestion to see what might be possible, but before we actually do anything about it, we'll see what people think.

Best,
Ron

Le Joueur wrote:

Jack Spencer Jr wrote: What I have seen on other sites is having a membership tier system where free membership is restricted in some way and/or pay membership has certain priviledges.

Exactly what priviledges could be reserved for pay membership on the Forge, I have no idea.

All of this 'who uses the most' or 'gets the most' should pay stuff overlooks one important and liberating fact of the internet.

Make payment anything but voluntaty and anonymous and say goodbye to the impoverished geniuses.

I'm rather surprised at the elitist attitude hidden in most of this commentary; the idea that anyone who can give, or should get, good ideas has ready money.

Hello,

Jack, we apparently cross-posted. Can I ask, with respect, that you and Fang let this one drop?

Best,
Ron

I think you guys are going about this all wrong. What the Forge needs is a fundraiser. I'm down there on the low end of the $$$ (I imagine I make Fang look like a rich man). There's just no way I'm going to pay for something that I already have for free. (In other words, I'm not gonna donate.) I try to support the industry by buying indie-games when I have some extra cash.

I think this same attitude propogates to people who have a much higher income than I do.

If the establishment needs more funds, then it has to offer incentive for people to provide those funds - beyond what people can already get just by showing up.

What I propose is that there be a special area of the Forge bookshelf for "subscribers." Normal Forge activity would continue exactly as it does now, but Forge "subscribers" would have access to additional material. This material would be donations by successful indie-game designers who want to support the Forge. Maybe Fang can't afford to donate money to the Forge, but he could sure could write a "How to GM" book, or a short game, or a Sorcerer suppliment, etc.

Ron, Clinton, Michael, Mike & Ralph, & others are all selling their own games for, I believe, profit. Why couldn't the Forge itself sell games to help itself survive?

I'd like to make a (hopefully) simple request: Could Clinton put a "Buy Forge Gear" or "Support the Forge" button on the top of the forum page? As far as I can tell, the support info is only under "About the Forge" and, frankly, I had completely forgotten about the option. I'd hazard that a lot of new people didn't even realize they could donate to the Forge.

Ron Edwards wrote: Jack, we apparently cross-posted. Can I ask, with respect, that you and Fang let this one drop?

Le Joueur wrote: I'm rather surprised at the elitist attitude hidden in most of this commentary; the idea that anyone who can give, or should get, good ideas has ready money.

Raven and I are living in synchronicity these days. I wholeheartedly agree with most of his post.

The pretty-much-final-unless-I-talk-with-Ron-and-change-my-mind solution to all this is that I will add another link to the top of the page with ways to support the Forge.

Things to note:
- A lot of people have contributed since this thread started, and for that, I thank all of them.
- Whenever you post at the Forge, you contribute. It's a very good point to remember.
- I did the "Anvilwerks profits go directly to the Forge" thing in December, which was very good for the site - it's paid the bills up until this month. Be aware that it was a bit of a ruse, though: Anvilwerks sales always go to pay for the Forge - the PayPal account for Anvilwerks is the same as the Forge's, and money comes directly out of it to pay for server bills.

I've been thinking about this a little more, and had a short private discussion about it with Raven. He pointed out that a "Forge Subscription" implies regularly updated content, which isn't too practical. He suggested instead selling the content individually for small prices.

This got me thinking about a Forge Indie-RPG Store. What if the Forge had an internet shop for selling indie-rpgs? The Forge could either take a percentage of each sale, or charge the designer a flat monthly or annual fee for having his game sold. This would be recruitment draw, because it would be an easy way for indie-game designers (like me, for example) who aren't really knowledgeable about the publishing field to get their games out there. A few of the designers on the Forge sell their gear through their own websites (Ron, Clinton, Ralph & Mike, and so on) but this is not really practical for a lot of us.

Even those designers who sell their games elsewhere might choose to sell through the Forge Store, to help support the central hive of indie RPGs.

Paganini wrote: Even those designers who sell their games elsewhere might choose to sell through the Forge Store, to help support the central hive of indie RPGs.

Warning: this thread is making me angry, as in Bruce-Banner-turns-into-Hulk angry. So tread lightly.

The Bookshelf is not, and was never meant to be, a place to buy and sell games. It's a system to provide authorization for game downloads for people who don't have the savvy to code their own username/password system for people to download games they've bought from them. It's also a cross-marketing system, allowing people who've bought a game to see other games and have links to those games' sites when they go to download the game they bought.

(As a side note: all of my sales have gone up since I started using the Bookshelf - people who buy Trollbabe, or InSpectres, or whatever, often buy Donjon or Paladin soon afterward.)

This is my brutally honest opinion: in no way should anyone ever be pressured to pay for the Forge. The continued talk about this baffles me completely.

Clinton R. Nixon wrote: The Bookshelf is not, and was never meant to be, a place to buy and sell games. It's a system to provide authorization for game downloads for people who don't have the savvy to code their own username/password system for people to download games they've bought from them.

Clinton R. Nixon wrote: (As a side note: all of my sales have gone up since I started using the Bookshelf - people who buy Trollbabe, or InSpectres, or whatever, often buy Donjon or Paladin soon afterward.)

Yes, (Jonathan) that was exactly the point I was making. Throughout this thread, people have been trying to figure out ways to support the Forge by getting the participants to pay money. I don't think this is a good approach. If the Forge needs money, why not get it to pay for itself? What is the Forge about? Indie RPGs! So if the Forge needs money, why not have it sell some?

Hello,

OK, that's about time to call it. Ralph, thanks for the suggestion. Everyone else, nothing is changing at the Forge in the forseeable future except perhaps the return of the Donate link at the top of the page.

Nathan, you're kind of aggravating both Clinton and myself. Emphatically: the Forge does not need money. We are not in the situation of trying to get any. That is not the topic or underlying assumption of this thread. Please stop posting ideas to solve a non-existent problem.

Ralph's idea is just that: an idea. It is not a proposed policy in the sense that it (or something) would be if Clinton or I posed it.

Best,
Ron

Things to note:
- A lot of people have contributed since this thread started, and for that, I thank all of them.

Bam. Money co-located with mouth.

Thanks for all the work, Clinton. Very much appreciated.

Best,

Blake

I know this thread is pretty much spent, and my intention is not to re-energise it.

Can I just say though, that putting the "donate" button at the top is a very good idea. Hell, I've been here a year or so now (and about #13 in posts I think) and I never even knew that donations were an option, let alone that they would be useful (perhaps I assumed The Forge was funded from somewhere, but most likely it just never occurred to me to wonder about it). I probably went into the "About the Forge" option once or twice, but the donate bit is at the bottom and I guess I somehow missed it.

I would be completely against any kind of pressure for folk to donate (some simply can't afford to), but the button might lead some to donate who would have, but the thought never even crossed their minds.

I can't promise to donate a lot (I'm not that flush really, and whatever I do donate will be halved thanks to the poor exchange rate from $NZ to $US) but at least I now know that it's an option and I will do so shortly - The Forge is worth it. Making the option more "visible" will give other blinkered folk like myself the opportunity to show their support.

Brian.