Hey all,

As promised, I present Slayer of Dragon RPG: Basic Edition. First, a few links to provide an historical perspective:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=5531
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=2990

The website in my sig provides the following links:
http://www.angelfire.com/games/freerpg/archive/slayer_basic_screen.pdf
http://www.angelfire.com/games/freerpg/archive/slayer_basic_print.pdf
http://www.angelfire.com/games/freerpg/archive/slayer_character_sheet.pdf

As you can see, this ain't yo' daddy's Slayer. Slayer Basic is lean and mean, just the way I like it. I can't use the N-word around here, so allow me to say that it is cinematic and leave it at that.

In the past, I have gotten great feedback, so I look forward to folks' reactions. I welcome criticism of any kind, including first reactions. I want Slayer to be as easy to use as possible, drawing people in and keeping them around.

Anyway, that's enough of me talking. I will let the text speak for itself.

Thanks,
Grant

Greetings All,

My rusty two-cents.


RE: slayer_basic_screen.pdf

The PDF: Clean. 24 standard sized pages. Clear and not hard on the eyes.

The Game: Simple. Three stats. Quick.

Favorite word/concept: "verticality"

Favorite quote: "So, you want to be a Mad Overlord, do you?"



RE: slayer_basic_print.PDF

Totals 12 pages. Print as chap book (pages print as 4/21, 20/5, etc); which means print, fold, and staple.


Overall not bad. Minimal use of color. Shouldn't tax jet printers.

So what are you witing for? There's the links, right click already! ;)


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

Ok, I tried to play it but I had some problems. First of all from the basic rules it's not clear that how many moves you get or how you use the points you have over. The older rules gave you one move for every skill level over 2 but it doesn't seem to make sense. Do you automatically get the moves from 1-2?

Anyway, doing damage... do you only give damage if you succeed with a critical (?!) that doesn't make sense but the rules seem to say that. And if not, and you KO people when you exceed stamina+star power well...

I made one character with Pow 5, Quick 1, Ki 1 and Punch 4. This guy could hit FRIGGIN hard knocking out everything, taking what people dished out and easily hitting everyone. Somehow the stats seem a little unbalanced.
Ki easily seems like the most useless of them.

It's very unclear how "block" is supposed work. When do you use it/when can you use it?

Further on it seems very useless to have more than 1 major type of attack. Especially punch and kick which are very similar. Since the ranking=skill you'd like to up the rating a lot rather than have a wide selection. A wide selection is more colour than anything, right? So shouldn't it be more easy to get to them?

Oh, and speaking of colour - may I suggest that stunts should be allowed to be done for free without spending valuable void points?

It seems like the stats ought to balance out better. Maybe you could use ki to add to power or to absorb attacks. That could be cool.

I'd like to see more ability to combine moves of different groups. Maybe make the move aquisition separate from your skill (again?) because after all it's mostly about colour anyway. My feeling is that the moves aren't THAT balance upsetting anyway. It would be neater to be able to combine them into a custom fighting style.

As you know, I like the old Slayer and I think you are onto some great ideas but the current Slayer is very much an "in-between" product right now. A lot of promising ideas hasn't been taken to their full potential yet and it shows. Right now it's not very "wow!" as far as the mechanics go but it's obvious a lot of things aren't there yet that will work itself in later.

I'm sure you'll get there soon enough though. Keep up the good work!

(P.S. Did you get my e-mail?)

Hey Kester, Christoffer,

Thanks for replying. Your first impressions are very illuminating.

Kester, I am glad you like the layout. I wanted people to be able to play just as quickly as possible.

Chris, I heartily approve of your attempts to break the system, but I think I have an answer to most of your questions. Let's see...

Under Techniques, the rules state that levels over three require moves to be learned separately.

Yep, you got the damage system right. However, you are forgetting about Star Power. That is understandable, since I somehow cut that section from the rules by mistake. Oops. Anyway, assume the player characters all have three extra points of Power for defense against knock-out, but most npcs will not have this advantage.

Ki is a lot more important that it looks. Ki powers your special moves, and a decent boss is probably not going down to basic moves without a lot of hardship. Plus, when the Ki-attack techniques (sorcery) are released, the imbalance against Ki-light characters will be even more exaggerated. Take a look at Punch 5: Strike the Spirit.

Oops again. The Block text makes no sense. Look at the description of the Level 1 move for an explanation. Defense = Quickness + Block, until a new action is taken.

All Punch moves have a +1 bonus to Skill, and all kick moves have a +1 bonus to Power. The numbers have already been adjusted, but if you look at the basic moves, you will see the difference. Also, Kick has most of the multiple attack moves. However, now that you have mentioned it, I might reconsider some of the modifiers to make punch and kick more dissimilar. Wrestle and Block are very different from the other two. I really do not see the comparison.

Do you think fifteen starting points for techniques would be better? I like the idea of giving people too much rope, but I suppose I should be nicer.

Stunts can be done without spending Void. Void is only ever spent to override the Overlord's decisions.

Ki already adds power to attacks. That's mostly what Ki does, but I like the idea of using Ki to defend against attacks. Any ideas for a cool Block move that uses Ki?

Every fighting game and its brother separates skill from the movelist. I think it lacks style to do it that way. Is there a reason you like the idea of cherry-picking?

I confess that I just finished writing the revisions, so I have not yet had a chance to playtest. That will be the true measure of the game.

If it makes you feel better, I am thinking of going back through the old versions and making Slayer Tactics, in line with the original design concepts but hopefully better implemented.

Thanks,
Grant

ThreeGee wrote: Under Techniques, the rules state that levels over three require moves to be learned separately.

Yep, you got the damage system right. However, you are forgetting about Star Power. That is understandable, since I somehow cut that section from the rules by mistake. Oops. Anyway, assume the player characters all have three extra points of Power for defense against knock-out, but most npcs will not have this advantage.

Ki is a lot more important that it looks. Ki powers your special moves, and a decent boss is probably not going down to basic moves without a lot of hardship. Plus, when the Ki-attack techniques (sorcery) are released, the imbalance against Ki-light characters will be even more exaggerated. Take a look at Punch 5: Strike the Spirit.

Oops again. The Block text makes no sense. Look at the description of the Level 1 move for an explanation. Defense = Quickness + Block, until a new action is taken.

All Punch moves have a +1 bonus to Skill, and all kick moves have a +1 bonus to Power.

Do you think fifteen starting points for techniques would be better? I like the idea of giving people too much rope, but I suppose I should be nicer.

Void is only ever spent to override the Overlord's decisions.

Ki already adds power to attacks. That's mostly what Ki does, but I like the idea of using Ki to defend against attacks. Any ideas for a cool Block move that uses Ki?

Hey Chris,

New characters do not get additional moves. Players need something to look forward to, after all.

Yep. Two moves with a cost of 2 Ki/move = all 4 points. Better make it count.

Let me just give an example, using your characters. Peter has an initiative die of d12, giving him an average roll of 4, and Kevin has an initiative die of d6, giving him an average roll of 2. Kevin goes first and opens with a wrist-lock (no sense in going for massive damage--might as well go for skillfully placed blows to soften up Peter). Skill 1 Power 1 vs. Quickness 1 Power 8. Kevin needs to roll 7+ on two dice to grapple Peter. Let's say he hits, so Peter now has one hold against him. Both go simultaneously. Kevin blocks, Peter goes for the knock-out with a right-cross to the skull. Skill 5 Power 6 vs. Quickness 5 Power 5. Peter needs to roll 9+ for the knockout or 12 for a point of damage. 28% chance of ending the fight in the first blow. Let's say he misses. Kevin goes again, grabbing the other arm (hey! he's a kicker--why not). Let's say he again succeeds and has the other arm. The Overlord rules that Peter cannot punch until he breaks free, so Peter uses the old wrasslin' moves himself to get free. Skill 1 Power 4 vs. Quickness 5 Power 5. Oops! There is no line on the chart for this imbalance. As long as Kevin can keep up the defense, he can knee Peter into submission.

Short. Brutal. To the point.

A more balanced character would probably have made mincemeat of Peter because he is such an easy target. If Kevin had Block 2, he would have an effective defense of 7. Peter with just one more point of Quickness could probably get the drop on himself consistantly enough to win.

Ultimately, though, I think you are attacking a straw-man. In 3E, a cleric will completely annihilate a thief, yet both are considered balanced. 3E is team-oriented, not PvP, and both classes provide excellent means of protagonization. Kevin is a great mook-killer and Peter is good against bosses. They are both amazingly good at what they do, but their styles are completely different, and neither will ever command the advanced moves in their styles. That sounds boring to me.

Moving on, what would be the point of auto-blocking? I have no idea where you are coming from on this one. What is different about that from how defense already works?

Would you be happier if I reintroduced Skill as an attribute? That really seems fraught with peril. Just buy a high skill and cherry-pick from the move lists.

I am glad you approve of the initiative system. It is funny that you think Power is so overpowered (ba-boom-ching) because I was thinking that maybe Quickness was a bit too much, affecting both defense and speed of attacks. Most games break at this very point.

Thanks,
Grant

ThreeGee wrote: Yep. Two moves with a cost of 2 Ki/move = all 4 points. Better make it count.

Let me just give an example, using your characters.

Moving on, what would be the point of auto-blocking? I have no idea where you are coming from on this one. What is different about that from how defense already works?

Would you be happier if I reintroduced Skill as an attribute? That really seems fraught with peril. Just buy a high skill and cherry-pick from the move lists.

I am glad you approve of the initiative system. It is funny that you think Power is so overpowered (ba-boom-ching) because I was thinking that maybe Quickness was a bit too much,

Hey Chris,

Try this on for size: does the problem you have with the system lie in the fact that Power and Skill are coarsely-grained, but Quickness and Ki are much more forgiving? So, to guarantee success, you would jack Power and Skill as high as possible, sacrificing the less tangible rewards of a high Quickness or Ki?

Honestly, I would never buy Ki up first, but that was true of the old version, as well. Ki is a mid- to late-game buy.

How obvious is it to you that a Quickness 5 character is three times faster than a Quickness 1 character, on average, and twice as fast as a Quickness 3 character? The difference in average initiatives jumps by .7 per step, starting at 1.25 and going up to 4. On a poor roll, a slow character can easily be left in the dust, due to the open-ended nature of the rolls.

Do you think that Blocking does not do enough? Maybe it should also add to resisting knock-out, in addition to avoiding a hit in the first place? Is it clear that blocks last until the character decides to do something else?

Going with your example, those initiative rolls do not make any sense. Kevin cannot roll a six on initiative. Are you sure you are doing it right? Also, Pete is so obviously a brick-shithouse that Keven would never open with a hard-hitting move like Axe Kick. Pete needs to be softened up a bit, first. For kicks, I would use Snap Kick about a zillion times until his Stamina came down to managable levels.

Do you understand that Pete and Kevin should never be fighting in the first place? Slayer is not a tactical game. Let me repeat that: Slayer is not a tactical game. Okay. And you have not even begun to talk about stunts. Just about every martial arts movie ever has a scene involving jumps and/or kicking logs. Sounds like easy pickin's for Kevin, given his huge advantage in speed, if he gets tired of just kicking Pete where it hurts.

Am I completely off my rocker? Am I overlooking something obvious?

Anyway, I have updated the pdfs with corrections and clarifications.

Later,
Grant

First off, let me say that my input is only the way I understood the system trying it out on my own. Don't take what I write as a wish-list on where to take the game. I'm just trying out the system and writing where I run into problems.

So you ask me for example:

ThreeGee wrote: Try this on for size: does the problem you have with the system lie in the fact that Power and Skill are coarsely-grained, but Quickness and Ki are much more forgiving? So, to guarantee success, you would jack Power and Skill as high as possible, sacrificing the less tangible rewards of a high Quickness or Ki?

Honestly, I would never buy Ki up first, but that was true of the old version, as well. Ki is a mid- to late-game buy.

Do you think that Blocking does not do enough?

Do you understand that Pete and Kevin should never be fighting in the first place? Slayer is not a tactical game. Let me repeat that: Slayer is not a tactical game.

Hey Chris,

Of course it is my game, but you are the only one who consistantly responds, so I assume that makes you my target audience. In a sense, you represent all the people I will never meet who might like the game.

However, you keep asking questions that assume a lot of things that do not make sense for the game. The players are not competing against each other. They are competing against the world. By taking the most extreme starting characters that you can build and setting them against each other, of course the system breaks down. That happens in every game. If an extreme character has a significant and constant advantage over a more reasonable character, there is a problem, and so far, I do not see a problem. Your one-trick ponies have significant weaknesses that can be exploited.

Reversal: Now you're cooking with gas. I think it might give too much advantage to being the defender, but I guess that's how real fights work. I will think about it.

Combos would just be an excuse for high Power, low Quickness characters to perform the same moves over and over, rather than suffer for their terrible initiative rolls.

Later,
Grant

ThreeGee wrote: However, you keep asking questions that assume a lot of things that do not make sense for the game. The players are not competing against each other. They are competing against the world. By taking the most extreme starting characters that you can build and setting them against each other, of course the system breaks down.

Reversal: Now you're cooking with gas. I think it might give too much advantage to being the defender, but I guess that's how real fights work. I will think about it.

Combos would just be an excuse for high Power, low Quickness characters to perform the same moves over and over, rather than suffer for their terrible initiative rolls.

Hey Christoffer,

We have been over this before. There are no monsters in Slayer. There are not even any fantasy elements in the basic edition.

I definitely like the idea of counters. How about if the attack misses, the defender automatically advances his initiative, counter-attacking immeditately? If the defender-now-attacker also misses, the original attacker gets one last shot before both roll initiative and play continues. The counter-attack thing cannot go on forever because the other players need to be able to do stuff, too. Does this make Blocking a little more exciting? Characters can be reckless, or they can be more defensive, waiting for the right moment to strike. Seems in-line with the source material to me.

I might not have been clear, but initiative is rolled after every action. A fast character could easily get several actions to a slower character's one. Call that a combo, if you like. Or were you thinking of maybe a +1 Quickness bonus to initiative after the second action, as long as the character is using a pre-determined chain of attacks? Maybe 1 CP per action, with a minimum of three actions.

Food for thought, anyway.

This bit is for everyone--the website has changed: http://gravitypress.indie-rpgs.com/

Later,
Grant

ThreeGee wrote: We have been over this before. There are no monsters in Slayer. There are not even any fantasy elements in the basic edition.

Do you understand that Pete and Kevin should never be fighting in the first place?

I definitely like the idea of counters. How about if the attack misses, the defender automatically advances his initiative, counter-attacking immeditately?

If the defender-now-attacker also misses, the original attacker gets one last shot before both roll initiative and play continues.

Does this make Blocking a little more exciting? Characters can be reckless, or they can be more defensive, waiting for the right moment to strike. Seems in-line with the source material to me.

I might not have been clear, but initiative is rolled after every action. A fast character could easily get several actions to a slower character's one.

Hey Chris,

I have updated the pdfs with new rules for counters, and I think they add a fun, new dynamic to the game.

Teammates are that: on a team. I have no interest in inter-party politics and hyper-balanced characters, ala Vampire. I want exciting, dynamic characters with very different styles working together against a common threat. As in D&D, most of the opposition should be hordes of mooks. A face NPC should be a real threat.

The stacked combo thing does not make much sense. It would either be horribly unbalanced or pointless because Skill can only be penalized so much. I really am not following you on this one.

Anyway, to prevent the PCs from being taken out of the fight too easily, I am boosting their Star Power from 3 to 5. The most powerful attack is a Power 5 character using an Air Meteor Smash, and it has a Power of 11(!). A more reasonable attack of +3 by a 4 Power attacker still will not KO a 2+ Stamina PC. However, that same attack would KO lesser NPCs.

Also, I have a sample adventure about half-written. I hope to have it done by the weekend.

Later,
Grant

I checked the PDFs but I didn't find the rules about counters?

As for the combos, forget about that idea :). Although I think I visualize it differently from you, I've reached the conclusion (after some thinking) that it wouldn't add anything really.

Hey Chris,

Page 10:
Counter-Attack: If the character’s attack fails, the defender may immediately take his action to counter-attack. Whether or not his counter-attack succeeds, both characters roll initiative, as described under Initiative, below.

I like the idea of combos, but I think we both agree there is nothing to be gained, as the rules now stand.

Later,
Grant

Hey all,

Does anyone else see something I am overlooking? Once I add a sample adventure this weekend, I would like to call Slayer Basic done, pending playtests.

Thanks,
Grant

Hmm.. so if I understand the counter rule, a slow character with high defense against a quick opponent would get more attacks than a slow character against an opponent of normal or low quickness?

It's not like it breaks the game, but it's a bit counter-intuitive.

I'm interested in seeing a sample adventure and gametesting too if you want to do stuff on-line.