I know that this may be a very basic question, but even a basic choice in mechanics can make a large difference in how a game feels when it's played. Currently, I am using an odd/even dice pool system using d6s. It's given me some problems, so I have come up with a possible alternative using polyhedrals from d4 to d12. The die rolling system would be similar to Deadlands.

What is your opinion of polyhedrals? Do they feel more "fun" than using a single die type? I know there are hundreds of logical reasons that say it doesn't matter, but I am looking for an emotional gut reaction.

In general, I prefer dice-based games to use a single die type... preferably d6 or d10.

In part, this is because I don't have huge piles of dice and most of my dice are either d6s or d10s. Having to scrounge for a d8 or something can be a pain.

I also dislike 'rolling' the d4.

Stuart

My gut reaction is I like all kinds of dice. I like polyhedrals. And the d4-d12 range offer a perfect 2-point step from one to the next (why isnt there a d14, d16, and d18 commonly available?).

Getting your hands on various dice is not hard, but it can cause less-than-enthusiastic potential players to not buy your game if they dont' already have the dice they need. However, I would not let that influence my design. If polyhedrals make the most sense to you, use them.

I found some great d4s that are oblong and kind of cylindrical. They roll like a charm, negating the old clumsy pyramids. You can also get other sizes in this form.

I'm with Stuart. Stick to a single type, and d10 or d6 if possible.

What was the problem with the even/odd system?

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: I'm with Stuart. Stick to a single type, and d10 or d6 if possible.

What was the problem with the even/odd system?

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: I'm with Stuart. Stick to a single type, and d10 or d6 if possible.

What was the problem with the even/odd system?

Just pitching in...

I find d6's to be dull and mundane in handling. They don't roll too purty and they're so...normal. I have lots because lots of games call for it, but I don't think that d6's offer any advantage other than availability...and we're discussing what's available to *gamers* here. I know this is opinion, but the question is about fun, and I find tactile sensation to be part of it.

Jake

I think you'll find gamers split into two camps, and probably pretty evenly:

• Stick to one kind of die so I don't have to ask what to roll next.• I've got all these dice, and I want to be able to use them.

That being the case, it's really up to you to decide what you want to do with it.

The only other issue I see at this point is barriers to entry. Multiverser uses a D30, and only partly because it worked well mechanically. E. R. Jones informed me when I started working on the system that it would use a D30 because he liked them and wanted a game in which he could use them. But a lot of people have passed on the game because they don't have the unusual die. (It is not used very often, and can be played around, but it's still there.) In much the same manner, if you're talking about designing a game which you hope will be played as an introductory game for people who have never heard of role playing games, polyhedral dice are often an obstacle for this--unless you're planning to put them in the box or use some alternate system (chits were popular around 1980), you're requiring them to get this unusual equipment that they can't pick up at either Barnes & Noble (where a lot of games are sold) or Toys R Us (which no longer carries any, but will be one of the first places people think of for "games"). Since people usually have D6's around, and can buy them just about anywhere (even dollar stores have them in batches), if you're looking to reach that audience you want to avoid sending them out on a snipe--er, dice--hunt.

On the other hand, most gamers will have at least one of each major die type, and quite a few have boxes or bags of dice of all types, so that's probably a minor factor in most cases.

Me? I don't care. I play both kinds of games. If a game sticks to one die type, I sometimes wonder if it would have worked better if it had varied the dice (particularly if it uses the same die type in different mechanics), but generally if it works, I'm happy.

--M. J. Young

I'd want to know how important low search and handling time is to you. Using different types of dice will slow resolution down (counting how many dice you have, reaching across the table because Bob has the two more d12's you need, etc). The Deadlands system is painfully slow in my opinion (I think the game could have been better served by some kind of 2d6 craps based mechanic...but you didn't ask for a Deadlands critique).

I'm in the single die type camp - purely for speed reasons.

(Ya know, if had a system where you always rolled 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, and 1d12 that'd run just as quick as most dice pool systems - just an idle thought)

More dice! More Dice!! MORE DICE!!!
[bangs fists on table]

I love polyhedrals, especially lots of different ones for different tasks and such. I really don't like systems that consist of only one type of die...totally boooooring (yes, I'm well aware that Sorcerer only uses one type of die...bite me).

But, in general, the more different-sided dice, the better!
More dice! More Dice!! MORE DICE!!!
[bangs fists on table]

Actually, after a moment's thought, I think maybe I can even get by with different colored dice of the same type...but there must be purpose to the color! Or it's meaningless!

James V. West wrote: And the d4-d12 range offer a perfect 2-point step from one to the next (why isnt there a d14, d16, and d18 commonly available?).

I think there's a certain appealing, almost fetishistic joy about collecting and using many kinds of dice. I know I like dice: I have a set of completely spherical d6s and a couple of those elongated d10s. I have no reason for having those particular dice, other than I like them.

however, people are turned off by irrational dice systems. you will notice that most people don't have any antagonism towards specific dice, other than hating hard-to-get dice or (in my case) hating d4s. show someone a system that just uses multiple dice types for no other reason than "hey, we have all these dice", though, and most people will hate it. I think this is why many people prefer single-die type games: because restricting game mechanics to a single type of die helps the designer focus on making a coherent game (although it's no guarantee...)

but there are coherent ways of using more than one die type in a game. for example, what about using d6 in all cases for damage/effectiveness and d20 for resolution? or games that give you four or five dice types that you assign to specific attributes?

I was once toying with an idea about using d6, d8, d10, and d12 in a game this way: each player in a conflict rolls two dice, one for attack and one for defense. each player must select attack/defense dice so that the total number of sides add to 18 -- in other words, you can have four possible combos:



• d6 attack, d12 defense
• d8 attack, d10 defense
• d10 attack, d8 defense
• d12 attack, d6 defense



it's simple: you want to roll higher on attack than your opponent rolls on defense, but you also want to roll higher on your defense than your opponent rolls on attack. the combo you select indicates whether you are attacking aggressively or defending warily.

that, to me, would be a coherent use of multiple dice types in a single game. it shouldn't offend too many people.

I have a theory as to why people don't like d4s.

They are the only die type with acute angles across their largest dimesions. D6s and d8s have right angles, and all other dice have obtuse angles across their largest dimension. When at rest, no mass overhangs the edges of the side of he d4 that touches the surface of the table (d6s, of course do not either, but come close). Which means that d4s look like they can't "roll". They seem less random, and in some ways are.

The solution to this problem was implemented in the Mayfair boardgame, "Road to the White House". Included with that game are several d8s labeled 1-4 twice. Similar to how very old d20s were labeled 0-9 twice. These are much more fun. The only problem with them is that if you are also playing with d8s then it's not easy to identify them one from another. Color-coding would fix that, however. I wish that the industry would move away from the pyrimidal d4 to the "d8" d4.

On the subject of d14 and d16, this is easy to accomplish. There are lots of dice that are created by simply putting one multi-sided pyramid on top of another. The d24 is a silly example, but exists. The d30 is more common, but also a novelty for the most part (Multiverser play aside). But, as it happens the d10 is also this sort of design. So all you have to do is to put one seven sided pyramid atop another, and voila, you have your d14. You could even make a d12 or d20 this way if you wanted to be consistent. d8s are, of couse this way, too, but also happen to be regular polyhedrons.

Again, you'd want to color code your di-pyrimidal dice to differentiate. I'm pretty sure the d14 and d16 are going to look pretty similar at a glance.

And lastly any die is possible by using the method that they use for the d100 (the one with 100 numbers on it). Just dimple the shpere evenly with exactly the number of "sides" you want, and distribute them evenly across the surface.

Has anyone seen the d6 with all different size sides?

It should be lost on nobody that the dice that do exist are based mostly on the recular polyhedrons, probably for esthetic reasons. But these have all been used up with 4, 6, 8, 12, and 20 (though I think there are some larger possibilities).

Mike

And even dice with odd sizes can be made using the cylinder pattern which you roll like an old wooden #2 pencil (we used to shoot craps in study hall with a pair of suitably marked #2 pencils).

I'd love to get a set of d5s, d7s, and d9s made like this.

Mike Holmes wrote: I have a theory as to why people don't like d4s.

Mike Holmes wrote: ...In the Mayfair boardgame, "Road to the White House". Included with that game are several d8s labeled 1-4 twice. Similar to how very old d20s were labeled 0-9 twice.

Mike Holmes wrote: On the subject of d14 and d16, this is easy to accomplish. There are lots of dice that are created by simply putting one multi-sided pyramid on top of another.

Mike Holmes wrote: Has anyone seen the d6 with all different size sides?

Mike Holmes wrote: It should be lost on nobody that the dice that do exist are based mostly on the regular polyhedrons, probably for esthetic reasons. But these have all been used up with 4, 6, 8, 12, and 20 (though I think there are some larger possibilities).

Valamir wrote: And even dice with odd sizes can be made using the cylinder pattern....

The problem with the cylinder method for odd-sided dice is that an edge rather than a flat side lands topmost. This could be addressed by suitable markings, but it adds just enough inelegance that as far as I know no one's bothered to try to manufacture and promote them.

There are many polyhedra that are not technically regular, but can still make provably fair dice because all the faces have the same shape and the same angles relative to adjacent faces; the d30 is an example. Unfortunately most of them have too many sides to be useful. For instance, you can make a fair d24 by slightly stellating a d6 or d8, or a fair d60 by slightly stellating a d12 or d20.

I like unusual asymmetrical dice when the game design doesn't require them to be fair. A few years ago a group I was part of was commissioned to design a small collection of Wallace and Gromit board games in the form of a pop-up book. Encouraged to include custom plastic items in the game, we invented a d5 shaped like a wedge of cheese. (It can land with either of two flat sides up, or either of two sloping sides up, or edge up; the holes in the cheese serve as pips.) Unfortunately the company didn't get the license they expected, and the games were never published.

Hog Wild (if I recall the name correctly) is essentially a dice game without numbers, based on the five stable positions a certain plastic pig can land in, with scoring based on combinations of varying likelihood.

For role playing games I have no strong preference for standard vs. nonstandard or one versus many types.

- Walt

wfreitag wrote: Hog Wild (if I recall the name correctly) is essentially a dice game without numbers, based on the five stable positions a certain plastic pig can land in, with scoring based on combinations of varying likelihood.

wfreitag wrote: The problem with the cylinder method for odd-sided dice is that an edge rather than a flat side lands topmost. This could be addressed by suitable markings, but it adds just enough inelegance that as far as I know no one's bothered to try to manufacture and promote them.

Or what I've seen is that people just number the edges. Not pretty but simple and functional. I think it was a seven sided die that I saw.

Mike

Most gamers have computers these days. Many have laptops, even.

Aren't dice a bit anachronistic? :-)

Mike

Computers are too heavy to throw easily, and they have irregular shapes that skew the odds. You might get okay results with a closed laptop, though you'd have to choose one with an even weight distribution through its thickness. But then you only have two sides.

Ralph, that's a good solution for cylinder-shaped odd dice. (I was thinking about doing roughtly the same thing using the rounded end-cap part of the die.) But I don't know if it's all that die-like in the end; it's more like a novel roller thingie. Be fun to have, though.

- Walt

Mike Holmes wrote: I have a theory as to why people don't like d4s.

Whoa! A lot of good opinions intermingled with "dice theory." It's helped me come to the decision to stick with Luna's odd/even dice pool mechanic with d6s, and add on the option to use d10s.

Thanks, guys!

Ah, that's right, you can't use just any die, because of the ones and sixes rules. So, for d10s, would you use 1-2 and 9-0 for exceptional rolls? Or just 1 and 0? If the latter, then d8 would be as reasonable.

What I'd do, to get the best of all worlds, is to point out that you can use any die and look at the maximum and minimums for exceptional results. The choice to use any particular die says something about how wild the GM wants the game to be. d4 is a lot wilder than a d6, and d10 is a lot less wild.

Make d6 the defaut (as the most common die and a reasonable option), but just point out to GMs how the changes in die choice affect the outcomes.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Ah, that's right, you can't use just any die, because of the ones and sixes rules. So, for d10s, would you use 1-2 and 9-0 for exceptional rolls? Or just 1 and 0? If the latter, then d8 would be as reasonable.

What I'd do, to get the best of all worlds, is to point out that you can use any die and look at the maximum and minimums for exceptional results. The choice to use any particular die says something about how wild the GM wants the game to be. d4 is a lot wilder than a d6, and d10 is a lot less wild.

Heraldic Game Design wrote: I've had more than one conversation with Lou Zocchi of Gamescience. The man is dying to have someone design a game that uses a d16, or some other nonstandard die, because he has designed a number of nonstandard polyhedrals. I wouldn't consider using them because they would be difficult for most people to acquire. A huge turn-off.

greyorm wrote:
Unless they're included with the game...
Seriously, you have an "in" with this guy, and certainly you might be able to strike a two-way beneficial deal to have those weird dice included in a game you're selling. Assuming you were developing such.

(We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread)

My bad. Your statement that you had "had more than one conversation with" him about it implied to me more than a simple sales pitch.

In any case, anyone can catch up with the Colonel at the Gamescience booth if you need to discuss dice.

The real question is cost. Given that they'd be special ordered, and need to have special packaging, I think that it's problematic. Still, it's a cool idea.

Mike

greyorm wrote: My bad. Your statement that you had "had more than one conversation with" him about it implied to me more than a simple sales pitch.

I'm a one dice person. Although it is quite nice to have different shaped dice on the table, when it comes to making the system as transparent as possible, having to hunt through dice types does spoil it a bit.

Having said that, a GM mechanic in my game, Icar, uses a D8, D10 and D12. So I'll shut up then.

Tend to prefer one kind of die. I think this stems from the kind of mechanic I prefer than any aesthetic reason, though.

That said, I really like d12s. I just do. d8s and d20s are ties for second place. Everything else just sort of.. is. Would love to play a game that used mostly d12.

I'm a "fewer kinds of dice the better" kind of guy. The thing that drove me up the wall about Earthdawn was the Step system requiring totally different dice being rolled together to determine results (D6+D8 one second, then D10+D12 the next). One the other hand, i like rolling fistfuls of dice.

Even D&D confused me less (actually, it didn't confuse me at all). Multiples of dice in the D&D system were usually the same type.

I have piles of dice, mostly D10 and D6. Rarely found a use for a D12, except for the old board game Shogun.

I agree with the hate of d4. Stupid non-rolling pyramids...

I'm in the one type of die, preferably d6 or d10 camp.

However, I'm not terribly adverse to using multiple die types. But for some reason I don't like to use d10s with the other dice--it disrupts their Platonic Soliditude, or whatever.

And I dislike d4s. They make good caltrops, bad dice. And d12s. Too clunky and round (still like d20s though, their un-clunky-ness offsets their roundness).

Rolling d6s and d20s are fun. And d8s should be used more often, because I like them. Okay, enough rambling.

-Jeff S.

Platonic Soliditude...heh :)

D10's are actually the only one of the group that isn't a platonic solid. Platonic solids are made of one type of regular (equal sided) polygon.

I also tend to prefer one type, mostly D6's or D10's (although I'm wanting to play sorcerer with d12s I just like Dodecahedrons.)

regards

Trevis