Greetings All,

Meant to post something about this awhile ago. . .

So I am working on something, like most of us here are, and was wondering what your thoughts might be. I mentioned this game (vaguely and ever so briefly) over in RPG Theory. But here's the basic overview:


What the game is: Adventures in Ptolemaic Space

What the game isn't: Science Fiction

What?


Crystal Sphere's direct spiritual predecessor is Spelljammer, and I plainly mention the fact in the work I have done. Too, many of the world mechanics and 'idea' conventions are similar. Similar, but rooted in real world descriptions of them. In fact you could probably use it with your Spelljammer campaign. But it's not Spelljammer, nor is it even Space 1889 or Skyrealms of Jorune. (Yeah, yeah. I'm old. It's not Dragonstar, either, ya whippursnappers! *smirks*)

I know what you're probably thinking: 'What? You're just redoing Spelljammer, what's the point?'

That's not exactly it either.

Crystal Spheres takes the basic cosmological elements and runs with them. Still, as I am presenting it, the unkind and cynical could probably call it a 'homebrew fan-boy' game, not that anyone here at The Forge would say such a thing. But, based on the premise I've thus far described, what do you think?

Oh, the rules, they are minimal. A 'rules lite' system strictly using six-siders. IOW: you can raid your favorite board game for dice to play the game.

Also I am working in a tactical 'table top' element for space travel and ship-to-ship, or rather I am trying to figure out how to do that in under two or so pages.

That said, unless you think the game idea uber sucks and is the penultimate worst game idea you have ever laid eyes on, what do you think?


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

Saying that the cosmology is kinda like Spelljammer doesn't give us much to go on. What are the characters like? What do they do? Why do they do it?

Stuart

What Stuart said.

My game, Fingers on the Firmament, is also "Adventures in Ptolemaic Space," but it doesn't sound anything like Crystal Spheres or Spelljammer (the latter of which I know nothing about). Fingers is about people exploring the mind-bogglingly big, empty void that is the universe, through a tactile relationship with the stars, and trying not to go insane with loneliness, starblindness, or suicidal feelings of insignificance. What's Crystal Spheres about?

Heh, Jonathan's looking for a way to win Andie's newest category the coveted "Most Depressing Game of the Year" award :-)

I wonder if you've read Celestial Matters by Richard Garfinkle. It's a (rather brief) novel that begins with the premise that Aristotelian science and cosmology is actually real. Ancient Chinese alchemical theories involving Chi are also real, and there is a sort of cold war between East and West. I found myself drawn into this alternate universe, and I can easily imagine using it as a RPG setting. This may be due to how pervasive Garfinkle makes the effects of the alternate reality. Technologies work according to elemental or chi based methods. For example, the "ship" in Celestial Matters is basically a large chunk of moon rock which is propelled through the natural circular motion of heavenly bodies postulated by Aristotle. Of course, the existance of a cold war analogue and analogues of other real world events provides a lot of gaming potential as well.

I think that a Ptolomaic universe RPG is a decent idea, so long as it provides sufficient incentive for a game. That said, I haven't had any exposure to Spelljammer, so I may not have the right idea about what you're trying to do.


Dwayne

Greetings,

I was working on this post online earlier and, apparently, something happened with The Forge. Not sure what, but luckily I was able to go back and save the content of the post. Apologies for the delay in responding. (Heh, site is fine now. So it wasn’t really all that long. *shrug*) That said, in regards to szilard, Jonathan Walton, and Valamir's questions:


Crystal Spheres presents a number of Sentient Races, from send-ups of old Spelljammer races, their DNA twisted and distorted, to a few exotic races liberally borrowed from "UFO Folklore". The setting allows for a diverse number and types of adventure, from exploring, swashbuckling, to engaging in full fledged trade wars.

The 'cosmology' is organized in such a way that there are "Crystal Spheres" containing solar systems, systems that are more or less based upon the Ptolemaic model. Think of the the Crystal Sphere as a giant crystalline shell located roughly in the same position that a Ort cloud would be. Access to it, and through it into the 'great beyond', is purely by advanced magical means.

For the 'great beyond' I have retained the term 'phlogiston' since there is less to explain with it that if I used the alternatives like Pleroma, though it is functionally a version of 'hyperspace' wherein bob other Crystal Spheres, each being a 'bubble reality' accessble, again, only by advanced magical means.

Essentially each Crystal Sphere represents an different reality centered upon a local star system.

Some of the races presented will be para-dimensional, meaning they are able to sort of phase in and out of a reality by means unknown. (IOW: These will represent the main malavolent races, or are they just misunderstood?) The reasons for adventuring will be the same as why you adventure in any RPG, myriad and based upon what the GM and players have decided they want to do for the evening.

At present the starter setting for Crystal Spheres contains six thumb nailed spheres, one port of interest in the 'Flow' (still a good term), though the map I've created actually shows seventeen spheres. The point being to provide a 'starter kit' that provides primer material for a GM to set up a campaign, or merely use the material to run a few adventures to get a feel for the setting and then adapt the game to suit. Also, for those curious about obtaining material for use with the game, I’ve written the basic game intro in such a way that, if you are familiar with Spelljammer, or games like it, Crystal Spheres should feel like a distant cousin. Also I provide links to resources easily found online that can be easily adapted for use with Crystal Spheres.

But that says very little about the characters, does it?

At present there are a few ‘special’ character archetypes available. In all likelihood these will be templates, in so far as you will pick a archetype, apply the modifiers to your base scores, and that will be the bulk of character generation. So it will be: roll scores (random) -> choose a race and add modifiers, if any ->choose a archetype/template and add modifiers/skills -> begin adventuring.


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

Greetings dalek_of_god,

I see you continue to elude the C.I.A.*, the Timelord council can't be pleased. ;)

dalek_of_god wrote: I think that a Ptolomaic universe RPG is a decent idea, so long as it provides sufficient incentive for a game. That said, I haven't had any exposure to Spelljammer, so I may not have the right idea about what you're trying to do.

Well, in answering your original question, "What do you think?"... I have to say that the game concept doesn't excite me terribly much, because it seems to be a a retread of things we've seen before. Not so much in your setting, which sounds interesting and original, but in the type of play that you seem to be anticipating. The majority of rpgs that are out there are simply different settings, with rules that all encourage similar types of play. When you said, "The reasons for adventuring will be the same as why you adventure in any RPG," that kind of put me off. Obviously, all rpgs (especially indie ones) don't use the same reasons for adventuring (or even have "adventuring" be the purpose of play) so it sounds like you mean that Crystal Sphere's won't offer anything that I couldn't find somewhere else.

Now, that might not be the case. Of, if it is the case, that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with that. A new and interesting setting can be its own reward. I was just hoping that you'd offer interesting possibilities for play as well.

I agree with Jonathan. I'm seeing a somewhat unique universe, and a premise to explore it generally. Not too compelling. Why shouldn't I play Blue Planet instead? In that, at least I'm aware that I'll be embroiled in political machinations.

You're trusting to the setting's special features to attract people along with a promise that the setting with be handled by the system better than D&D does it.

How is this game not Sci-fi? It's "speculative fiction" at the very least. Denying that it's sci-fi is tantamount to admitting that it is, but you want it to be something more unique than what sci-fi would imply. Well instead of telling us what it's not, tell us what it is.

Mike

Greetings Jonathan,

Jonathan Walton wrote: Now, that might not be the case. Of, if it is the case, that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with that. A new and interesting setting can be its own reward. I was just hoping that you'd offer interesting possibilities for play as well.

Kester Pelagius wrote: When I say that play will be just like in any other RPG, I am stressing the fact that, quite literally, Crystal Spheres can provide the same impetus for play as any RPG.

This means you can have gangsters, modern firearms, space aliens, brain leeches, extradimensional time bandits, anything that you can find in any other RPG.

Greetings Mike,

Mike Holmes wrote: I agree with Jonathan. I'm seeing a somewhat unique universe, and a premise to explore it generally. Not too compelling. Why shouldn't I play Blue Planet instead? In that, at least I'm aware that I'll be embroiled in political machinations.

Mike Holmes wrote: You're trusting to the setting's special features to attract people along with a promise that the setting with be handled by the system better than D&D does it.

Mike Holmes wrote: How is this game not Sci-fi? It's "speculative fiction" at the very least.[/quite]

Speculative Fiction, yes. Science Fiction, no.

To be science fiction the world being detailed by the author would have to rely on current scientific trends, or a projection of possibly future trends. I am relying on past scientific models. Ergo: it's pure fantasy. Moorcock did a series of books in which he postulates an alternate history in which Zeppelins took the place of airplanes. Very good speculative "science" fiction. I am attempting to detail a multiverse that uses magic to propel sky ships and vimanas.

There is a difference between speculative ficiton and science fiction. A novel can be speculative fiction without any hard science fact (or fiction) elements in it. To say that Crystal Spheres is science fiction would be tantamount to building an expectation in the reader that says the game will rely upon the standard science fiction tropes, which to most translated into forms of 'technology', and other color that we have come to expect in science fiction novels.

Take the Dragonriders of Pern. Reading it you can call it "science fantasy" because their are starships and telescopes mixed in with the dragons. AND (very important) the dragons were genetically engineered! Genetics. A modern science.

In pure fantasy there is no genetic engineering. Rather there is alchemy, golems, imps in a bottle, and the like.

Mike Holmes wrote: Denying that it's sci-fi is tantamount to admitting that it is, but you want it to be something more unique than what sci-fi would imply. Well instead of telling us what it's not, tell us what it is.

If I had to describe it with standard genre labels I'd say that Crystal Spheres is a stiff shot of Historical melodrama, two jiggers of Heroic Fantasy, a twist of Space Opera, and a tangy dash of folkore and myth all liberally spiced with a smooth smokey mystic flavoring.

Now who wouldn't want some of that? ;)


Kind Regards,

Kester Pelagius

See what we were missing previously is the detail that the PCs will be involved in the dealings of different worlds that may represent different genres.

I had a vision of PCs sailing from one world to another all aware of each other.

That's an important question you've not answered. Are the inhabitants aware of the nature of the universe?

Who makes the ships? Who sails the ships? Are the PCs likely to be amongst them? Or will the muliverse element be mostly a background thing? How often are journeys made? How difficult are they? Do the reality principles of one shpere bleed over into other spheres? That is, do guns work in all spheres? Or just some? Magic?

See, in Multiverser, you are, well, you (the character is just like the player to start), going from universe to universe. That's pretty grabby. In TORG, your characters are fighting the effect that's causing all these universes to come together. In Rifts your characters are trying to promote your own realities agenda over the others (mostly). In Nine Worlds the characters create the realities.

What are the characters in your game doing? Why should I care, and want to play? Anything? I'll play one of the above games which seem to have better defined PC goals.

Sure I can make my own goals. But then these games will suffice as well. Or I can just use GURPS or FUDGE or something generic. What about your game makes it superior to any of these? The simple cross-breeding of the Multiverse concept with the Ptolmaic Spheres thing just isn't going to do it all by itself.

If you were to do a tremendous job on the setting, then maybe. But how can we know that heading into design? I think you ought to work on it a bit more, and see what does develop in terms of a unique gaming experience.

Mike

Kester Pelagius wrote: When I say that play will be just like in any other RPG, I am stressing the fact that, quite literally, Crystal Spheres can provide the same impetus for play as any RPG.

I, too, don't think it's a good idea to make this a cross-genre game, for a different reason.

You have this great Ptolemaic world. Why waste this great bit of color on yet another generalist game? If the thing is going to be called Crystal Spheres, then it dang well better do something interesting and cool with those crystal spheres; the name of the game should tell me what's going on. Basically, I think you're doing the color a disservice by setting it into the background.

It looks to me like the concepts for Crystal Spheres place some heavy burdens on the game's rule structure. I'm starting to see this as a sort of magical version of the original Star Trek, with a focus on exploring the unknown (and the unexpected). In each game the PCs will encounter yet another completely unique world with little connection to what they have encountered before. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it means that the rules have to allow for unique and interesting worlds to be created in a very limited amount of time. I think you may be focusing too much on the Ptolomaic and Medieval cosmologies. The cosmologies seem to be mainly MacGuffins to get the PCs from one crystal sphere to another. The bulk of the game would have to be in learning about the physics and inhabitants of this week's solar system.

I've had an idea for a possible game involving extremely divergent alternate realities, and the biggest problem that occurs to me is keeping the players interested in yet another new thing. I'm considering ways of rotating the GM duties so that each player gets an opportunity to create a mini-universe for their characters to play in. I think this could work with the Star Trek like feel I'm getting from Crystal Spheres. After all, Spock didn't have a big part in every episode, and some characters only appeared sporadically. It should be easy to change GMs. Unfortunately the GM role usually resides outside the rules, and I haven't figured out a good way to move it inside so that changing GMs is both explicitly part of the game and actually interesting.

That's just some thoughts I had. Most of it relates more to what I've been doing than to Crystal Spheres, but it might help a little. The main point is that you need to figure out a general theme for the game (as Mike and szilard have pointed out). The theme needs to be something that the Ptolomaic space backdrop can help tie together. The Star Trek thing is just the first one to cross my mind.


Dwayne

I could buy the "intrepid ship of explorers" idea, with worlds as episodes. Now that would be unique and compelling.

Mike

Greetings All,

I tried to pick what I thought were the most salient points and respond to them. If I missed anything you feel was important, and didn't address it somehow below, I apologize. As always any grammatical or syntax errors are purely due to gremlins living in my machine. ;)

That said. . .

Jonathan Walton wrote: Okay, it sounds like you're on the edge of the Please-Everyone Trap. It seems like you want to put your setting out there and let people use it to play whatever kind of game they prefer. If they like Space Opera, they can play Space Opera games. If they like Gunfights & Gangsters, they can play a Gunfights & Gangsters game.

Jonathan Walton wrote: To me, this makes your game ignorable. There are plenty of games and settings out there that I could use to play "whatever I want." If you give me the setting and make me, the GM, go to the trouble of coming up with a plot and reasons why the characters are adventuring together, you're not doing too much to help me out.

dalek_of_god wrote: It looks to me like the concepts for Crystal Spheres place some heavy burdens on the game's rule structure. I'm starting to see this as a sort of magical version of the original Star Trek, with a focus on exploring the unknown (and the unexpected). In each game the PCs will encounter yet another completely unique world with little connection to what they have encountered before.

four willows weeping wrote: You have this great Ptolemaic world. Why waste this great bit of color on yet another generalist game? If the thing is going to be called Crystal Spheres, then it dang well better do something interesting and cool with those crystal spheres; the name of the game should tell me what's going on. Basically, I think you're doing the color a disservice by setting it into the background.

Mike Holmes wrote: That's an important question you've not answered. Are the inhabitants aware of the nature of the universe?

Mike Holmes wrote: Who makes the ships? Who sails the ships? Are the PCs likely to be amongst them? Or will the muliverse element be mostly a background thing? How often are journeys made? How difficult are they? Do the reality principles of one shpere bleed over into other spheres? That is, do guns work in all spheres? Or just some? Magic?

Mike Holmes wrote: I could buy the "intrepid ship of explorers" idea, with worlds as episodes. Now that would be unique and compelling.

Kester Pelagius wrote: I know, some mayprefer to use prefab modules and stock settings, I never really did. Least not without adapting them. Crystal Spheres may not be right for such a GMs gaming style as I am writing it assuming a GM who is going to know the likes and dislikes of their group better and want to set up a game to suit them.

Greetings Jonathan,

Jonathan Walton wrote: I don't like prefab modules or stock settings either. That wasn't really what I was getting at. My point was that you haven't really articulated what Crystal Spheres is about. You've talked about the setting a great deal and said you wanted the characters to go adventuring, but I don't yet get WHY. Is it a game about exploration? Is it a game about this weird-science Ptolemaic universe? You don't need modules if you've got a vision of what play will be like. It's easy for GMs to come up with game concepts if you inspire them with that vision. Right now, my response would be "Cool setting, but what do I do with it?"

Jonathan Walton wrote: Sure, every GM should adapt material for his/her player group, but I shouldn't have to come up with the game's Premise. "Here's this cool setting, guys, and we're going to use it to explore _______." I'm sure you have this great vision of what the game's intended to be like, but I'm just not getting it from the material you've put forward.

Kester Pelagius wrote: The canvas of the campaign setting is potentially vast, but as the voices I hear are saying "give me a definite starting point" then so be it.