Topic: Need help developing categories for magic
Started by: redcrow
Started on: 3/28/2003
Board: Indie Game Design
On 3/28/2003 at 4:17pm, redcrow wrote:
Need help developing categories for magic
I'm developing a game in the fantasy genre and could use some input for ideas on how to categorize magic. So far what I've been trying to do is balance each category with sort of its polar opposite, like so...
Creation vs. Destruction
Conjuration vs. Abjuration
Benediction vs. Malediction
Divination vs. Obfuscation
unfortunately some categories don't seem to balance as well as others, like Transformation and Necromancy. Any thoughts?
On 3/28/2003 at 5:11pm, ethan_greer wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
Hi there, and welcome to the Forge, if no-one's said it yet. :)
I think you are needlessly limiting your design possibilities by adhering to the schools of magic from D&D.
For example, have you looked at Ars Magica? It's available free from RPGNow.com. Or GURPS Magic? Eldritch Ass Kicking? There's a magic system in development by Clinton R. Nixon called The Shadow of Yesterday that's pretty cool.
The point is, you should be asking yourself why you're creating the system you're creating, before questioning the minute details.
So, what's your setting like? What goals do you expect the characters to have? What drives play forward and makes it interesting? The answers to these questions will help you to develop a magic system that will fit better with the game you're creating.
On 3/28/2003 at 6:16pm, redcrow wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
ethan_greer wrote: Hi there, and welcome to the Forge, if no-one's said it yet. :)
I think you are needlessly limiting your design possibilities by adhering to the schools of magic from D&D.
For example, have you looked at Ars Magica? It's available free from RPGNow.com. Or GURPS Magic? Eldritch Ass Kicking? There's a magic system in development by Clinton R. Nixon called The Shadow of Yesterday that's pretty cool.
The point is, you should be asking yourself why you're creating the system you're creating, before questioning the minute details.
So, what's your setting like? What goals do you expect the characters to have? What drives play forward and makes it interesting? The answers to these questions will help you to develop a magic system that will fit better with the game you're creating.
Hey, thanx for the greeting. ;-)
Yes, I've looked at Ars Magica and Mage: The Ascension and while those are excellent magic systems and I like the openness and flexibility of them, they don't fit too well with my game concept.
I want the actual spells to be sort of path based meaning that low powered spells will be prerequisites of higher powered spells. For example, a spellcaster must learn to "Produce Flame" before he can achieve the mighty "Fireball". They must learn to walk before they can run. Similar to how its done in GURPS. I suppose I could eliminate the classifications of magic altogether, but I did have some plans for them.
The setting is more aptly labeled Fantasy Horror... similar in nature to the setting for Warhammer Fantasy. If you are not familiar with Warhammer, then take D&D, remove all but the most basic of magic and throw in a dash of Cthulhu.
Its not the type of game where characters go looking for adventure, its more the type where adventure comes looking for them... and drags them off kicking and screaming into the night. I want the game to focus more on mystery and political intrigue with less of an emphasis on combat. However, for those times when combat is inevitable it will tend to be quick and deadly.
The period is mid to late Renaissance where early firearms like the wheelock and flintlock are becoming more widespread and heavy medieval armor is on the way out. Its a low-magic world where magic is on the decline and much of what once was known has been lost or forgotten. Spellcasters are few and far between and most people view them with suspicion born from ancient superstitions and myth.
On 3/28/2003 at 7:50pm, ethan_greer wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
Hmm. Based on the info you've given, I'm picturing magic being edged out in favor of technology by the general populace. Which makes sense, given magic as an ancient and arcane craft; pulling the trigger on a wheel-lock is a lot easier than casting magic missile.
Okay, what role do spellcasters play in the setting? Are they crusty old folks, the last remnants of a dying breed, or are younger spellcasters around (though rare)? Are you planning to allow spellcasting PCs? If so, then a magic system is obviously important, and I think the hidebound, tradition-rich flavor of magic (complete with D&D-esque schools) you seem to describe is well-suited to the setting.
However, I'm decidedly not the person to be talking to about magic system design in general, since I suck at it and tend to avoid it completely. I know, I know, it's the coward's way out, but there it is...
That said, now that I know more about your setting/game, I can heartilly recommend checking out Arrowflight, which has a similar Renaissance feel to its setting, and the magic system is IMO quite cool.
Another idea that occurs to me which may appeal to you is to devise a cycle of opposing schools, rather than pairs of opposing schools. In other words, "School A opposes School B opposes School C opposes School D opposes School A" instead of "School A opposes School B, School C opposes School D, etc."
Good luck!
On 3/28/2003 at 8:09pm, Thomas Tamblyn wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
Currently your schools are based on effect rather than method, have you considered going the other way round? For example rather than having a destruction school for all attack spells you have an elemental school which can be used to attack, imprison, create stuff. A Fate school which centres on subtle blesigns and curses as well as dvination.
Have you considered elemental schools? Not just traditional elemnts such as fire and ice but things like thought and luck too. It sounds like you're going to arrange spells in trees, sinc eit wuldn't make much sense to need to know Create Flame in order to know Lightning bolt if you want different elemental effects you're going to end up with a lot more trees in destruction than any other school.
Somethign else that struck me - is Obfuscation really a big enough category to be a school in itself? I know that you want sts of opposites but obfuscation just leaps out to me as being far less useful than its opposite.
Finally - what school would mind-influenceoing spells fall under?
Hope this was helpful.
On 3/28/2003 at 9:06pm, taalyn wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
An idea: take a hint from Spell Law. Simply come up with your spell lists based on whatever themes you think important. Have a fire list, a water list, an illusion list, a webby list, and so on. Then create techniques/schools from the list.
I'm not keen on lists myself, and found teh D&D sorts of categories limiting and sometimes nonsensical (why are wards abjuration instead of conjuration, especially when they involve a spinning sphere of knives?). But if you're stuck on the lists, come up with polarized effects first, then name them. Frex, wards vs. containers (keeping out vs. keeping in). Using a handy Latin dictionary, you'd get the schools of Exarcuition and Adarcuition (from prepositions + arcere, arcui 'to keep at a distance , hinder, prevent, keep away'. A favorite of mine that I invented was Rogation, which was the school of bending reality to make gates and portals (from rogare 'to fold').
I also found it useful to go through lists of spells and make my own lists of characterizations of what they were about. Then I'd work from those effects to create scholastic oppositions based on what the spell actually does, rather than how it's been characterized in other games.
Hope that helps.
Aidan
On 3/28/2003 at 10:10pm, greyorm wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
Here's a thought: since magic is dying out, leave those categories you cannot find an opposite to singular. Explain this by the fact that magic is dying out and much lore has been forgotten.
Thus you won't need to detail this opposing path because it will never come up in-game unless YOU want it to. This also leaves it open for you to add those opposites in later, perhaps after an idea strikes you.
Ultimately, though, I agree that using D&D's magic schools is hampering your design.
On 3/28/2003 at 10:26pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
Why the need for opposites? Just an esthetic consideration, or is there something in your system that requires it?
Mike
On 3/28/2003 at 10:46pm, redcrow wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
Thomas Tamblyn wrote: Have you considered elemental schools? Not just traditional elemnts such as fire and ice but things like thought and luck too. It sounds like you're going to arrange spells in trees, sinc eit wuldn't make much sense to need to know Create Flame in order to know Lightning bolt if you want different elemental effects you're going to end up with a lot more trees in destruction than any other school.
The initial idea I had was to divide up the schools into elemental categories of Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Spirit and then just associate spells with one of those or combinations of those. I may end up going back to that idea.
Somethign else that struck me - is Obfuscation really a big enough category to be a school in itself? I know that you want sts of opposites but obfuscation just leaps out to me as being far less useful than its opposite.
Obfuscation also covers Illusions, so yes, I think it is a very broad category.
Finally - what school would mind-influenceoing spells fall under?
Well, the schools I listed aren't all of them, just most of them. As I said not all schools seem to have a good balance with the categories as I have them and one is an Enchantment category.
On 3/28/2003 at 10:53pm, redcrow wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
taalyn wrote: An idea: take a hint from Spell Law. Simply come up with your spell lists based on whatever themes you think important. Have a fire list, a water list, an illusion list, a webby list, and so on. Then create techniques/schools from the list.
I've considered that too and with a few tweaks it might be a workable alternative. Though instead of the lists being linear like they are in Spell Law, I would like to make them branch out like a bush.
I'm not keen on lists myself, and found teh D&D sorts of categories limiting and sometimes nonsensical (why are wards abjuration instead of conjuration, especially when they involve a spinning sphere of knives?).
I tend to agree. There seems to be a lot of inconsistency in how spells are categorized in D&D, which is something I really wanted to avoid from the get go.
But if you're stuck on the lists, come up with polarized effects first, then name them. Frex, wards vs. containers (keeping out vs. keeping in). Using a handy Latin dictionary, you'd get the schools of Exarcuition and Adarcuition (from prepositions + arcere, arcui 'to keep at a distance , hinder, prevent, keep away'. A favorite of mine that I invented was Rogation, which was the school of bending reality to make gates and portals (from rogare 'to fold').
I like Rogation, mind if I steal it?
I also found it useful to go through lists of spells and make my own lists of characterizations of what they were about. Then I'd work from those effects to create scholastic oppositions based on what the spell actually does, rather than how it's been characterized in other games.
Hope that helps.
Aidan
You've definitely given me some things to think about, thanx. ;-)
On 3/28/2003 at 10:58pm, redcrow wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
greyorm wrote: Here's a thought: since magic is dying out, leave those categories you cannot find an opposite to singular. Explain this by the fact that magic is dying out and much lore has been forgotten.
Thats always a possibility and not a bad suggestion. Though I would rather not leave any big gaps that might make things seem inconsistent. I would rather develop a school completely and then go back and say its a lost art. That way its already there and fleshed out if I need to drop it in as a surprise for the players.
Ultimately, though, I agree that using D&D's magic schools is hampering your design.
You could very well be right. Perhaps, I will put this idea aside for a time and try a different approach altogether.
On 3/28/2003 at 11:01pm, redcrow wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
Mike Holmes wrote: Why the need for opposites? Just an esthetic consideration, or is there something in your system that requires it?
Mike
No, nothing specifically require it. I think its probably just my mindset that is trying to organize everything into neat and tidy little packages. If its possible to over-organize, then I'm likely the one to do it. :-)
On 3/28/2003 at 11:20pm, redcrow wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
ethan_greer wrote: Hmm. Based on the info you've given, I'm picturing magic being edged out in favor of technology by the general populace. Which makes sense, given magic as an ancient and arcane craft; pulling the trigger on a wheel-lock is a lot easier than casting magic missile.
Exactly. It takes a lot of study and practice to become a mage, but the average person could be taught to fire a gun relatively quickly.
Okay, what role do spellcasters play in the setting? Are they crusty old folks, the last remnants of a dying breed, or are younger spellcasters around (though rare)?
A majority of spellcasters are old codgers, but there are a few young ones that pop up from time to time.
Are you planning to allow spellcasting PCs? If so, then a magic system is obviously important, and I think the hidebound, tradition-rich flavor of magic (complete with D&D-esque schools) you seem to describe is well-suited to the setting.
Yes, there will be spellcasting PCs. I don't want there to be an overabundance of spells in the game as I hate the idea of magic being a crutch for roleplaying. I want magic to complement roleplaying not replace it.
However, I'm decidedly not the person to be talking to about magic system design in general, since I suck at it and tend to avoid it completely. I know, I know, it's the coward's way out, but there it is...
That said, now that I know more about your setting/game, I can heartilly recommend checking out Arrowflight, which has a similar Renaissance feel to its setting, and the magic system is IMO quite cool.
Thanx, I hadn't heard of Arrowflight, so I'll check it out. Hopefully it will give me some ideas.
Another idea that occurs to me which may appeal to you is to devise a cycle of opposing schools, rather than pairs of opposing schools. In other words, "School A opposes School B opposes School C opposes School D opposes School A" instead of "School A opposes School B, School C opposes School D, etc."
Good luck!
I thought of something similar to that too, but didn't get very far in developing it. Basically it went Creation leads to Transformation leads to Destruction... and thats about as far as I got before it sort of broke down. Thanx for the input though and if you think of any ideas let me know.
On 3/29/2003 at 2:51am, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
Howdy redcrow,
Don't know if these links will help you any, then again they might, so here they are.
Fantasy Worldbuilding & Magic
World Building (Magic) resources.
More of a general guide to fantasy but still good.
Hope there's something in there that helps!
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 3/29/2003 at 9:21pm, redcrow wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
Kester Pelagius wrote: Howdy redcrow,
Don't know if these links will help you any, then again they might, so here they are.
Fantasy Worldbuilding & Magic
World Building (Magic) resources.
More of a general guide to fantasy but still good.
Hope there's something in there that helps!
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
Thanx, those links gave me some ideas on possibly taking a different approach to the magic system.
On 3/30/2003 at 12:52am, taalyn wrote:
RE: Need help developing categories for magic
Steal Rogation. I like it too much to keep it to myself!
Aidan