Okay, guys, here's the draft of the TROS board rules. Any commentary comes *now,* 'cause when they're offical, that's it.

Jake

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Welcome to the Riddle of Steel Forge Forum

This forum is maintained by Driftwood Publishing for the discussion of their game The Riddle of Steel, and other associated Driftwood publications. We enjoy a very friendly and relaxed atmosphere here, and you're free to start or jump on into any conversations you like that relate to TROS and/or Roleplaying.

Although we like to keep things informal, there are just a few ground rules to keep in mind. Mostly, they're common sense and designed to help promote the easy-going atmosphere we enjoy.

Swearing
Swearing is acceptable in the TROS forum, as long as it is not directed specifically at another person or used in a manner to belittle something they have said. Additionally, like most things swearing loses its impact if overused, so try not to overdo it.

Flaming
Flaming another person is not ever acceptable in the TROS forum. It's OK to disagree with somebody (and to say so), but try to keep your comments polite and at all times avoid personal digs. If somebody flames you, do not respond in kind - this is what starts flame wars. Be assured that it has been noticed and they will have been quietly spoken to via PM.

Editing Posts
It's quite acceptable to edit your own posts (particularly to fix grammatical or compositional errors), but it is generally considered bad form to change a post once somebody else has responded to it, as this creates confusion when other readers see posts and replies that do not seem to match. If somebody else has responded to your post, please don't change it.

Deleting Posts
At all times we discourage the deletion of posts. If you felt strongly enough to say it in the first place then it should probably remain.

Old Topics
Over time, threads stop receiving replies and new discussions begin. Although it's great to be able to go back and re-read old topics, it's desirable to let them stay "retired" rather than respond to them and "wake them up". If a thread has not been posted to for more than a month, please do not post to it. Create a new topic and refer back to the old one (with a link, perhaps) if you wish to start a new conversation about the same topic. This lets us keep our historical conversations historical, and avoids us eventually ending up with 10 topics with 2000 posts in each.

Off-Topic Posting
Is acceptable as long as it's still related in some way to TROS and/or roleplaying. As interesting as it may be, we really don't want to hear about your train collection or what you did last summer (unless what you did was roleplay, perhaps). Please do not start off-topic message threads, and do not respond if someone else starts one. If an existing thread has swayed off topic (but is still related to gaming and/or TROS) then please consider starting a new thread for the new topic so that the old one can return to what it was supposed to be talking about.

Spelling and Grammer
We're not your English teacher, and we don't enforce any kind of grammer structure on the forum. Having said that, you're more likely to receive useful responses if it's easy to read and understand what you have typed. Please consider running your messages through a spellcheck before posting them and keep an eye on your grammer, it makes it easier for the rest of us to read what you have to say.

Moderation
Having to moderate sucks, and we don't like it. If you step out of line, the worst you can usually expect is a friendly reminder about the rules. However, if Jake or Brian tells you to stop doing something or that a topic is closed and is to receive no further replies, then please heed what they say. Similarly, Ron Edwards and Clinton Nixon are the administrators of The Forge itself, so avoid annoying them.

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I like the rules, I also appreciate the leniency about swearing.... I like the relative hands off approach and we really are not as bad as most boards for flaming and flame wars thankfully so its nice to see the rules geared appropriately.

These sound very amiable and reasonable, nice work Jake. Although I haven't seen too much of a problem here, it's always a good idea to be proactive rather than reactive when it comes to these things.

I am a moderator on a heavily moderated martial arts board. At the Administrator's request, I wrote a detailed FAQ for that board. While some of the stuff obviously ain't applicable here, I would be happy to send the parts that are. There parts are very helpful to both moderators and useful for resolving questions and stupid arguments.

Jake, let me know and I'll PM it to you.

In the grammar paragraph, the comma between 'grammar' and 'it' should be a semicolon, since it separates two complete clauses. The irony of this is amusing.

Seriously though, these rules seem adequate to me. Rock on.

I'd be less strict on the deleting-of-posts point. Sometimes the only way to avoid a flamewar is to be able to retract something you posted while you were too angry to think straight, or to edit it to say, "Removed because I lost my temper and this was a bad post". And editing posts should be allowed if you can add things to what you've already said to make a point clearer for new readers; spares them having to wade through off-topic spinoffs to a misunderstood post.

Also, in the "Spelling and grammer" section, "grammer" is misspelled. Should be "gramMAR". :)

But otherwise, yeah, these are good.

Actually Stephen that exact reason is why NOT do delete posts. In fact, that was the source of the biggest moderation problem the Forge has had.

Party A says something nasty. Party B sees it and responds stridently. Party A deletes their post. Party B now looks like an ass getting worked up over nothing.

An unfortunate situation...but well over a year later, Party B still grinds that axe and holds it out as evidence of what an evil horrible place the Forge is.

Verdict. Bad Idea.

Valamir wrote: Actually Stephen that exact reason is why NOT to delete posts. In fact, that was the source of the biggest moderation problem the Forge has had.

Party A says something nasty. Party B sees it and responds stridently. Party A deletes their post. Party B now looks like an ass getting worked up over nothing. An unfortunate situation...but well over a year later, Party B still grinds that axe and holds it out as evidence of what an evil horrible place the Forge is. Verdict. Bad Idea.

Hiya Stephen,

Well, it's Jake's call 'cause it's his forum, but here's the policy logic for the general forums at the Forge.

1. "Take it back" deletions encourage flaming.

2. Apologizing for bad behavior, and accepting that apology graciously, raises both posters' esteem in the community.

3. The entire exchange can be referred to later for new people, both as models for how not to post and as models for how to behave toward one another. Again, to the credit of both parties.

All of this is related as well to the "historical" issue of isolating conversations in time, and to the idea that Forge dialogues are constructive, rather than one-by-one-post reactive.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: Hiya Stephen,

Well, it's Jake's call 'cause it's his forum, but here's the policy logic for the general forums at the Forge.

Hi Stephen,

You're switching issues on me - now you're talking about deleting posts (or changing their content) within moments after posting, before anyone has responded. Surprise! This is allowed in the general forums of the Forge. That's why we have the time-window for editing.

Looking back over the discussion, we started by talking about changing posts after they've been responded to, not in a quickie-oops kind of way.

Best,
Ron

I believe that the forum does give you 24 hours to edit your posts. If only five minutes have past, then go ahead and delete. The idea is not to delet after somebody else has resoponded. If it's been more than a couple of minutes, and you check the forum, and nobody has posted a reply, then it's a judgement call. But given that somebody may be writing a post in reply right as you're viewing it, I'd only do it in extreme cases. Even then, I'd at the very least leave the post with an explanation of the problem. Simply humbly editing the post to say that you see that you may have over-reacted (or posting the same later to the thread) is better.

If the deletion policy makes you think twice about posting something in haste, isn't that a good thing?

Mike

And here's a good example of an edit where I mention for the third damn time today that I've cross-posted with Ron.

[comprehension dawning]Aaahhhh....[/comprehension dawning]

Yes, I apologize for not being clearer; I didn't realize we were talking about different things. If there is a time limit on catching hasty posts, then that's fine.

Maybe the original Forum draft should have a codicil to that section, something like: "Deleting a hasty or ill-thought-out post before it's been answered is fine, but we strongly encourage people not to remove posts that have already gathered responses or been quoted, as it makes the resultant threads hard to read and follow."

i was going to delete the thread i made... but i could never find the button, so i just said screw it...lol

Guys, you're arguing over nothing.. it pretty clearly says that you should feel free to edit posts until such time as someone has responded to them. That means that "oops, I shouldn't have said that, I'll change it before anyone sees it" is quite acceptable under the rules. Once someone has seen it and responded though, too late. Time for an apology, perhaps.

(And dammit, I can't believe I made two grammatical errors in the paragraph about grammar *grin*).

Brian.

I think the rules are great. A good combination of "Play nice" and "You are at your own risk here".

On the deletion of posts, i concur that deleting a hasty, angry post is fine before replies to it are made is acceptable. I also feel that leaving the post as an example to others is also a good idea.

We all have strong feelings about gaming. On the other hand, i would hope that we are all mature enough to refute a point without starting a flame-war, or at least take five minutes or so to calm down before replying.

Example: I say "I don't like White Wolf games. I find the system doesn't do what i want it to, and that it encourages munchkinism and power gaming. The setting in general kind of bothers me as well, but i can fix that."

Somebody who replies with "I can't believe how stupid you are. White Wolf is the best, and you are a goat loving f4gz0r for thinking otherwise." shouldn't be posting on the Forge, period.

It makes us all look bad (through guilt by association) by tolerating it.

I've gotten so much of this kind of attitude from RPG.net it isn't even funny.

On the other hand, if someone replies with "You are missing the point. (insert well reasoned, logical rebuttal here)" then this is perfectly fine.

I post on the Forge not because it is "pretentious" or "uptight", but because i find the level of conversation to be of higher quality and more even tempered.

Sounds good.

sounds like a good 1st set to me. Let's try it out and see how it works.

I sort of want to ask about issues involving sanctions for repeated bad behavior, but I don't have any firm opinions on this other than rational discourse is my friend :)

EDIT: It is also a rather unimportant point, because we haven't had any real villains around, as far as I can tell. A few threads that got touchy, but that is a little different.

I like how Jake moderated one of those threads, saying everyone should wait for a certain response, and helping to frame some of the issues. Just thought I'd throw that in too, seeing how I'm talking about what to do about problems.

Nick Pagnucco wrote: I like how Jake moderated one of those threads, saying everyone should wait for a certain response, and helping to frame some of the issues. Just thought I'd throw that in too, seeing how I'm talking about what to do about problems.

Nobody has passed any new comments in a while. I propose we set these rules in stone, with a minor change:

Old Section:

Deleting Posts
At all times we discourage the deletion of posts. If you felt strongly enough to say it in the first place then it should probably remain.

Should now read:

Deleting Posts
At all times we discourage the deletion of posts. If you felt strongly enough to say it in the first place then it should probably remain. However, we realise that sometimes the fingers act faster than the brain. Feel free to delete a post you have reconsidered as long as it is within half an hour or so, and nobody has responded to it. Remember, you may not delete or edit a post that has been responded to.

Brian.

Brian Leybourne wrote: Nobody has passed any new comments in a while. I propose we set these rules in stone, with a minor change:

Old Section:

Deleting Posts
At all times we discourage the deletion of posts. If you felt strongly enough to say it in the first place then it should probably remain.

Should now read:

Deleting Posts
At all times we discourage the deletion of posts. If you felt strongly enough to say it in the first place then it should probably remain. However, we realise that sometimes the fingers act faster than the brain. Feel free to delete a post you have reconsidered as long as it is within half an hour or so, and nobody has responded to it. Remember, you may not delete or edit a post that has been responded to.

Brian.