Topic: Dark Sun racial packages
Started by: Dave Turner
Started on: 4/8/2003
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 4/8/2003 at 3:41am, Dave Turner wrote:
Dark Sun racial packages
I'm an old school Dark Sun fan and the recent thread of a TROS/Dark Sun blend got me really excited. I've created some potential racial packages and I'd appreciate any criticism that can be spared. :)
Race and Sorcery:
Priority A: Sorcerers, Thri-kreen, Half-giants
Priority B: Dwarves, Elves, Muls
Priority C: Half-Elves, Halflings
Priority D-F: Humans
Thri-Kreen racial package: +1 AG, EN, and PER (Thri-kreen are dexterous, tireless, and alert), -2 SOC (The kreen mindset is very alien to other humanoids), chitin (acts as full chain suit without penalties, prevents kreen from wearing regular armor), extra set of arms (bonus undetermined)
Half-giant racial package: +3 STR, +2 TO, Max. STR = 13 (Half-giants are enormously strong and resilient), +2 Move bonus (Their size grants them a longer stride), -1 AG (Half-giants are clumsy), -2 MA (Half-giants are notoriously slow-witted), Flaw: half-giants can't become sorcerors
Dwarf racial package: +1 TO and HT (Dwarves are enduring), -1 WIT (Dwarven single-mindedness makes them a bit inflexible), Focus (dwarves may select a Drive SA that receives a +2 bonus. This particular SA can rise to 7. If the Focus Drive ever drops to 0 without being resolved, the dwarf dies and returns as an undead banshee), one bonus Craft/Trade at SR -1
Elf racial package: +1 AG and SOC (Elves are lithe and charismatic), -1 TO (Elves are known for their fragility), +3 Move bonus (Elves have long, powerful legs that are uniquely suited for running), Elven Run (If unencumbered or mildly encumbered, elves can make a Move check vs. TN 8 to enter a trance-like state known as the Elven Run. Each success adds a temporary +1 to their Move score for calculating daily overland distance traveled. Every continuous day after the first adds a cumulative +1 to the Move check TN. Once an elf fails a check or reaches his destination, he receives 3 pts of Fatigue for each day in the run.)
Mul racial package: +2 EN (Muls are seemingly immune to fatigue), +1 STR (Muls combine human size and dwarven solidity to good effect), -1 WIT (Muls share the dwarven predilection for single-mindedness), Mul Endurance (Muls accumulate Fatigue at a much slower rate than other races. If engaged in combat or strenuous work with heavy armor on or while encumbered, muls pick up a point of Fatigue every EN x 1 hours. If unencumbered or unarmored, muls pick up a point of Fatigue every EN x 4 hours.)
Halfling racial package: +1 AG (Halflings have tremendous hand-eye coordination), +1 PER (Jungle life sharpens every halfing sense), -1 ST (Halfings’ small frames and musculature don’t compare to those of larger humanoids), Sneak at SR 6 (All Halflings are expert stalkers), Survival: Forest/Jungle at SR 7 (Halfings know the ways of the jungle), Swimming at SR 7 (an extremely rare skill on Athas, but common to the jungle-dwelling Halflings), Flaw: Little, Flaw: halflings can't become sorcerors
Half-elf racial package: +1 AG (Half-elves have some elven grace), -1 SOC (Half-elves are distrusted by both human and elven cultures), Gift: Animal Kin (minor) (Half-elves often turn to animals for companionship), +1 proficiency (Half-elves often have to defend themselves from bullies)
Sorcerors: If a player wishes to be a sorceror, he simply chooses Priority A and picks which race the character will be.
EDIT: Forgot to mention one thing: I'm not sure how to incorporate the extra set of arms that thri-kreen have into the system. My biggest concern would be its impact on the combat system.
On 4/8/2003 at 4:02am, Shadeling wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
You have the ideas of MA and Wit swapped. Just take a look at the slow-learning, unchanging(single-minded) Fey in the book. They receive an MA penalty. MA has nothing to do with being slow-witted, rather education and ability to learn.
Just my 2 bits.
On 4/8/2003 at 4:06am, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Given how prevalent sorcerers are in Dark Sun (IIRC that's why the place is so screwed, because there are so many defilers killing all the flora and fauna as a side effect of casting their spells) I would drop sorcery from Priority A to at least B, and probably C.
Even in TROS, where they're as common as hens teeth, they're B. You have put them at A indicating that they're a one-in-a-million occurrance, which doesn't gel with my recolection of Dark Sun.
Just my 2c
Brian.
On 4/8/2003 at 6:47am, Paka wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Is priority really a measure of how common a wizard is in the world or how much the character has to give up in order to become one?
On 4/8/2003 at 6:51am, Ashren Va'Hale wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
multiple arms would be mad dice on grappling and maneuvers woul be bad ass since no matter the proficiency you could do many of the two weapon maneuvers, imagine a kreen with a greatsword in two hands and a buckler, now he can do greatsword maneuvers and many of the cut and thrust as well
On 4/8/2003 at 11:32am, Eamon Voss wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Ashren Va'Hale wrote: multiple arms would be mad dice on grappling and maneuvers woul be bad ass since no matter the proficiency you could do many of the two weapon maneuvers, imagine a kreen with a greatsword in two hands and a buckler, now he can do greatsword maneuvers and many of the cut and thrust as well
By the fixed dice of Gary Jackson, I never thought of that! A thri-keen would be nigh-unstoppable!
On 4/8/2003 at 12:43pm, Dave Turner wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Shadeling wrote: You have the ideas of MA and Wit swapped. Just take a look at the slow-learning, unchanging(single-minded) Fey in the book. They receive an MA penalty. MA has nothing to do with being slow-witted, rather education and ability to learn.
Just my 2 bits.
I see, Shadeling. I assume you're referring to the Half-giant's flavor text accompanying his -2 MA? I should change the text, since I think that half-giants match what you say above, which is a penalty to MA. Would a change in flavor text do it for ya? :)
Brian Leybourne wrote:
Given how prevalent sorcerers are in Dark Sun (IIRC that's why the place is so screwed, because there are so many defilers killing all the flora and fauna as a side effect of casting their spells) I would drop sorcery from Priority A to at least B, and probably C.
Even in TROS, where they're as common as hens teeth, they're B. You have put them at A indicating that they're a one-in-a-million occurrance, which doesn't gel with my recolection of Dark Sun.
Just my 2c
Interesting, Brian. My undertanding of how Athas became so ravaged was due mostly to the Cleansing Wars waged by the sorcerer-kings in ages past, which employed devastating magics. In addition, maybe defilers were more prevalent in the past (hence the ecological collapse) but a combination of a "dwindling habitat" and a sorcerer-king pogrom has whittled down their numbers? I seem to recall that the sorcerer-kings went out of their way to kill defilers that weren't on the payroll?
Paka wrote:
Is priority really a measure of how common a wizard is in the world or how much the character has to give up in order to become one?
I always thought that it was the latter?
Ashren Va'Hale wrote:
multiple arms would be mad dice on grappling and maneuvers woul be bad ass since no matter the proficiency you could do many of the two weapon maneuvers, imagine a kreen with a greatsword in two hands and a buckler, now he can do greatsword maneuvers and many of the cut and thrust as well
I still have a reasonably academic understanding of how combat in actual play looks. I can see how the the grappling bonus would work.
For the multiple maneuvers, would that mean that a thri-kreen could use cut-and-thrust or sword-and-shield maneuvers while wielding a two-handed weapon? Would that be unbalanced in combat?
I also should have mentioned that I've got a few tweaks to the setting as well. I've dropped priestly magic and psionics, for example. I'm keeping the geography, history, flora, fauna, and cultures. I still have to work up rules for non-metallic equipment, dehydration, some creature stats, and a few other things.
Should I assume that with the exceptions posted above that the rest of the packages seem to be alright? :)
On 4/8/2003 at 4:35pm, Shadeling wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Dave Turner wrote:Shadeling wrote: You have the ideas of MA and Wit swapped. Just take a look at the slow-learning, unchanging(single-minded) Fey in the book. They receive an MA penalty. MA has nothing to do with being slow-witted, rather education and ability to learn.
Just my 2 bits.
I see, Shadeling. I assume you're referring to the Half-giant's flavor text accompanying his -2 MA? I should change the text, since I think that half-giants match what you say above, which is a penalty to MA. Would a change in flavor text do it for ya? :)
But you also have dwarves with a Wit penalty as well as Muls. Wit is mental reflex and sharpness. Again look at the Fey in the TROS book-they are single-minded and yet receive a bonus to Wit. MA is not intellect as I had said. Perhaps it is Dwarves, Muls and Half-Giants that should have penalty to MA. Look at the Gorem in the TROS book for a good example of a half-giant, since that is what they are in a sense. Gorem have lower EN, AG, WP, SOC, and MA just to give you an idea. Do what you want obviously...but not many nations or races in the TROS book have actual penalties to Wit.
Have fun with DarkSun!
On 4/8/2003 at 5:20pm, Dave Turner wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Shadeling wrote:Dave Turner wrote:Shadeling wrote: You have the ideas of MA and Wit swapped. Just take a look at the slow-learning, unchanging(single-minded) Fey in the book. They receive an MA penalty. MA has nothing to do with being slow-witted, rather education and ability to learn.
Just my 2 bits.
I see, Shadeling. I assume you're referring to the Half-giant's flavor text accompanying his -2 MA? I should change the text, since I think that half-giants match what you say above, which is a penalty to MA. Would a change in flavor text do it for ya? :)
But you also have dwarves with a Wit penalty as well as Muls. Wit is mental reflex and sharpness. Again look at the Fey in the TROS book-they are single-minded and yet receive a bonus to Wit. MA is not intellect as I had said. Perhaps it is Dwarves, Muls and Half-Giants that should have penalty to MA. Look at the Gorem in the TROS book for a good example of a half-giant, since that is what they are in a sense. Gorem have lower EN, AG, WP, SOC, and MA just to give you an idea. Do what you want obviously...but not many nations or races in the TROS book have actual penalties to Wit.
Have fun with DarkSun!
I see where you're headed now.
I suppose I was thinking that dwarves (and muls) should get a Wit penalty because of a racial preference for tradition and conservatism. I see the dwarves as being consumed with structured life and industriousness. This leads them to look to the routine of their lives and culture for immediate answers to sudden situations. It's a byproduct of their focus maybe? I see Wit in part as a talent for thinking outside the box. Dwarves prefer to stay in the box as long as possible before venturing out, which seems like a Wit penalty to me. They aren't given to spontaneous or impulsive thought.
But I'll take that idea of an MA penalty into consideration. I'll be posting some other stuff regarding weapons, creatures, etc. soon. :)
On 4/8/2003 at 5:29pm, Shadeling wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Dave Turner wrote:Shadeling wrote:Dave Turner wrote:Shadeling wrote: You have the ideas of MA and Wit swapped. Just take a look at the slow-learning, unchanging(single-minded) Fey in the book. They receive an MA penalty. MA has nothing to do with being slow-witted, rather education and ability to learn.
Just my 2 bits.
I see, Shadeling. I assume you're referring to the Half-giant's flavor text accompanying his -2 MA? I should change the text, since I think that half-giants match what you say above, which is a penalty to MA. Would a change in flavor text do it for ya? :)
But you also have dwarves with a Wit penalty as well as Muls. Wit is mental reflex and sharpness. Again look at the Fey in the TROS book-they are single-minded and yet receive a bonus to Wit. MA is not intellect as I had said. Perhaps it is Dwarves, Muls and Half-Giants that should have penalty to MA. Look at the Gorem in the TROS book for a good example of a half-giant, since that is what they are in a sense. Gorem have lower EN, AG, WP, SOC, and MA just to give you an idea. Do what you want obviously...but not many nations or races in the TROS book have actual penalties to Wit.
Have fun with DarkSun!
I see where you're headed now.
I suppose I was thinking that dwarves (and muls) should get a Wit penalty because of a racial preference for tradition and conservatism. I see the dwarves as being consumed with structured life and industriousness. This leads them to look to the routine of their lives and culture for immediate answers to sudden situations. It's a byproduct of their focus maybe? I see Wit in part as a talent for thinking outside the box. Dwarves prefer to stay in the box as long as possible before venturing out, which seems like a Wit penalty to me. They aren't given to spontaneous or impulsive thought.
But I'll take that idea of an MA penalty into consideration. I'll be posting some other stuff regarding weapons, creatures, etc. soon. :)
But like I was saying, most races in that regards-very focused or unchanging- tend to have MA penalties-like Fey (-2) and Dragons (avg MA of 1)in TROS. In TROS Wit isn't so much ability to think outside the box-actually that is more up to the player. Think of things Wit is used in-Countering someone trying to buy Initiative, some Ridicule rolls, and of course in figuring out your Reflex. It is also cunning and instinct in the case of animals-which usually cannot think outside the box so-to-speak, but have average-to-high Wit usually.
On 4/8/2003 at 8:28pm, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Paka wrote: Is priority really a measure of how common a wizard is in the world or how much the character has to give up in order to become one?
Nah it's the rarity. This has been discussed several times in the past.
YMMV of course, that was just my 2c.
Brian.
On 4/8/2003 at 9:18pm, Dave Turner wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Brian Leybourne wrote:Paka wrote: Is priority really a measure of how common a wizard is in the world or how much the character has to give up in order to become one?
Nah it's the rarity. This has been discussed several times in the past.
YMMV of course, that was just my 2c.
Brian.
That's another way of looking at it. I guess I'll have to decide how common I want them to be. Since I'm stripping the setting of priestly magic and psionics, I might just want to stick with that low-magic notion and make defilers super rare, meaning Priority A. That's more grist for the mill, I guess. Thanks, Brian. :)
On 4/9/2003 at 3:29am, Shadeling wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Dave Turner wrote:Brian Leybourne wrote:Paka wrote: Is priority really a measure of how common a wizard is in the world or how much the character has to give up in order to become one?
Nah it's the rarity. This has been discussed several times in the past.
YMMV of course, that was just my 2c.
Brian.
That's another way of looking at it. I guess I'll have to decide how common I want them to be. Since I'm stripping the setting of priestly magic and psionics, I might just want to stick with that low-magic notion and make defilers super rare, meaning Priority A. That's more grist for the mill, I guess. Thanks, Brian. :)
It is a little unfair to the C and lower races to have to put A to be magical. Look at TROS for example where Sorcerers are super rare. Humans have to put B to use magic, and Siehe and Fey A (though Fey are always magical). Might want to think about that.
On 4/9/2003 at 1:08pm, Dave Turner wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Shadeling wrote:
It is a little unfair to the C and lower races to have to put A to be magical. Look at TROS for example where Sorcerers are super rare. Humans have to put B to use magic, and Siehe and Fey A (though Fey are always magical). Might want to think about that.
So maybe switch Sorcerer to Priority B? That would leave Thri-Kreen and Half-giants at Priority A. I've restricted half-giants from being sorcerers, so that would mean that, like the Fey, I would have to have a rule that Priority A covers the mega-rare sorcerous thri-kreen?
I've already decided that if someone chooses Priority A, they are a sorcerer and can choose any race they want in addition (it's at the bottom of the original post). Wait, I think I see what's wrong. Why would I choose human (from a min-maxing point of view) if I could choose thri-kreen? Be a sorcerer and a kick-ass race at the same time? If I drop the Priority to B, it makes the thri-kreen choice a bit more vital?
I think I'll bump humans up to Priority C and make sorcery a Priority B choice. But I don't want to make the core TROS assumption that all Priority A races are sorcerous, but I want to allow for thri-kreen sorcerers. How do I resolve this?
On 4/9/2003 at 2:27pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
No psionics and no priests??
I'm floored. My interest in this thread just evaporated, man. Sorry. I don't see "Dark Sun" in anything without psionics and pyramid-priests.
Best,
Ron
editing this in moments later: Well, that was kind of harsh. Let me put it differently: as a self-described "old school Dark Sun fan," why are you removing the psionics and priests?
On 4/9/2003 at 3:33pm, Eamon Voss wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Ron Edwards wrote: No psionics and no priests??
I'm floored. My interest in this thread just evaporated, man. Sorry. I don't see "Dark Sun" in anything without psionics and pyramid-priests.
editing this in moments later: Well, that was kind of harsh. Let me put it differently: as a self-described "old school Dark Sun fan," why are you removing the psionics and priests?
I agree with Ron. Normally I hate mixing magic and psionics, but Dark Sun pulls it off. A kewl setting that I've sadly only seen run really, really badly.
On 4/9/2003 at 6:55pm, Dave Turner wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Ron Edwards wrote: No psionics and no priests??
I'm floored. My interest in this thread just evaporated, man. Sorry. I don't see "Dark Sun" in anything without psionics and pyramid-priests.
Best,
Ron
editing this in moments later: Well, that was kind of harsh. Let me put it differently: as a self-described "old school Dark Sun fan," why are you removing the psionics and priests?
LOL, don't sweat it, Ron. My skin is much thicker than that. Ask Sorensen. ;-)
The reason for dropping psionics is that I can't think of a good way to implement them in TROS that doesn't come off as "sorcery lite". The thread that got me thinking about this had a suggestion for making psionics a skill package. As I tossed around some preliminary ideas for a psionics-as-skills system, I found that I couldn't come up with anything that didn't seem like a pale echo of sorcery.
So I thought about simply expanding the notion of "sorcery" to include both magical and/or psionic abilities. So one "sorcerer" wields magical energy to do his thing and another "sorcerer" does it with mental energy. Both would use the same TROS sorcery system. This seemed like an OK idea, but it suddenly made sorcery seem a lot more common. This, in turn, started to give me a bit of a high-fantasy vibe. I've got nothing against high-fantasy in general, but I think that one of the benefits of TROS is that it seems to encourage a low-fantasy feel which fits Dark Sun better, IMO. I've not completely moved away from the idea of "psionics as sorcery", but there's something that's holding me back a bit.
As for the priests, I didn't decide to get rid of the elemental priests, only their magical powers. Again, this is done in the service of keeping the magic level of the game down. Priests still venerate the elements and the supernatural creatures of those planes (elementals and elemental beings) still exist, just as demons exist in Weyrth. The priests just don't receive spell-casting powers from the elementals. Instead, I'm thinking of a kind of summoning-based relationship, wherein the priests bargain with the elementals for services in exchange for tribute.
The more I type, however, the more I'm starting to think that keeping the magic low maybe isn't the right way to go. Why not let priests/druids have sorcery as well, suitably tweaked for priestly flavor? My original intent in doing a TROS/Dark Sun blend wasn't to perform a perfect translation of the D&D version of Dark Sun into a TROS version (hence my willingness to chuck psionics and priestly magic). My thoughts have run more towards a primarily TROS-based game, using the geography, history, and cultures of Athas. When making decisions regarding inconsistencies between the two, I've erred on the side of staying true to TROS.
How would you do it, Ron (and others)? Since the Internet is a poor conveyor of tone, I'll clarify that I'm asking sincerely, not sarcastically. I welcome criticism, since part of the reason for posting this publicly is to receive it. Don't be shy. :-)
On 4/9/2003 at 7:09pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Hi Dave,
Ah-ha! I thought it was due to system-first!
[Rubs hands]
Psionics: use the Sorcery rules; it's a new Proficiency and requires a racial category (probably C or thereabouts). Permit the Summoning, Motion, and Glamor vagaries (off the top of my head), with "special effects" limited through shared understanding of the genre. Replace aging with "mental overload" damage, like in Akira or other anime.
Defilers: use the Sorcery rules; again, a distinct Proficiency and make it A or B. No limits on Vagaries, but the Defiler Pool is limited to 6. Yup! These guys are weak; they have to use SA's and cunning to be as effective as a psionicist. Replace aging with some sort of occultist backlash, perhaps in terms of a second spell of the GM's devising that goes off in addition to the intended spell, to the tune of the dice of "aging."
Priests: ahhh ... OK, this is interesting. Obviously, again using the Sorcery rules, You'll have to think in terms of magic (a) deriving from the pyramids and (b) having specific Vagaries in which it excels. The former might be in terms of Priest-Pool bonus dice, or perhaps making the priests' Priest-Pool accessible in the first place. I like the latter better, in which case to do magic away from the temples, they'd have to rely on items that were created in the temples. I'd probably switch out the aging for simple energy-backlash damage, using the general-damage - the idea is that the energy from the pyramids reverberates out of control.
Last thought: here's my non-canonical Dark Sun mod - drop the non-human races. Oh, do have cannibal midgets and great big hulking dudes and reedy nomads ... but don't call them "halflings," "half-giants," and "elves." All that was, in my view, a lame-ass way to D&D-ize what was obviously an original RPG setting before TSR bought it.
All of the above is just stream-of-consciousness. I'd have to sit down with old boxed set and do some scribbling to come up with something better ... but I have no doubt that it would be easy and fun to do.
Best,
Ron
On 4/9/2003 at 7:47pm, Dave Turner wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
You didn't waste any time, Ron! :-)
Ron Edwards wrote:
Psionics: use the Sorcery rules; it's a new Proficiency and requires a racial category (probably C or thereabouts). Permit the Summoning, Motion, and Glamor vagaries (off the top of my head), with "special effects" limited through shared understanding of the genre. Replace aging with "mental overload" damage, like in Akira or other anime.
Vision and Conquer (to simulate telepathy) are also natural candidates for psionics. I had considered mental backlash damage as an alternative to aging. Maybe two months of "aging" translates into a level of generic damage?
Ron Edwards wrote:
Defilers: use the Sorcery rules; again, a distinct Proficiency and make it A or B. No limits on Vagaries, but the Defiler Pool is limited to 6. Yup! These guys are weak; they have to use SA's and cunning to be as effective as a psionicist. Replace aging with some sort of occultist backlash, perhaps in terms of a second spell of the GM's devising that goes off in addition to the intended spell, to the tune of the dice of "aging."
I see defiling/preserving magic a bit differently. Why limit the pool to 6 dice? The reason that defiling is so tempting is because it can be so powerful. It's the reason that Athas was turned to dust, not psionics. If psionics were more powerful than defiling, then the most powerful psions on Athas could have stopped the defilement from occurring, no?
As for the backlash, there was an excellent suggestion you might have missed on the previous Dark Sun thread in this forum. Give every sorcerer the ability to choose whether or not they wish to defile every time they cast a spell. Those who wish to defile cause the usual destruction of plant life that defilers are known for. Those who choose to preserve take regular TROS aging damage. This makes the decision to defile a moral one and allows PCs to make interesting choices within the game as they cast their magic.
Ron Edwards wrote:
Priests: ahhh ... OK, this is interesting. Obviously, again using the Sorcery rules, You'll have to think in terms of magic (a) deriving from the pyramids and (b) having specific Vagaries in which it excels. The former might be in terms of Priest-Pool bonus dice, or perhaps making the priests' Priest-Pool accessible in the first place. I like the latter better, in which case to do magic away from the temples, they'd have to rely on items that were created in the temples. I'd probably switch out the aging for simple energy-backlash damage, using the general-damage - the idea is that the energy from the pyramids reverberates out of control.
I think you've been away from the boxed set too long, since this is certainly a different description of the Athasian priestly magic that I know. ;-)
Priests in Dark Sun have no inherent connection to pyramids as you describe. They worked just like D&D priests, only their patrons were elemental lords and their spell domains were a bit more restrictive. Same for druids, whose patron deity was a Spirit of the Land rather than an elemental lord.
As far as their magical backlash is concerned, maybe there's some way of linking it to an elemental theme? There could be some kind of "elemental backlash" or they could inadvertently damage nearby elements? Maybe they turn nearby soil sterile, or water that everyone is carrying evaporates, or something (or someone) nearby bursts into flame? The elemental backlash damage option is clearly the easiest one to implement.
Ron Edwards wrote:
Last thought: here's my non-canonical Dark Sun mod - drop the non-human races. Oh, do have cannibal midgets and great big hulking dudes and reedy nomads ... but don't call them "halflings," "half-giants," and "elves." All that was, in my view, a lame-ass way to D&D-ize what was obviously an original RPG setting before TSR bought it.
Interesting notion. Maybe they should just be presented as "human racial packages"? Drop the names as you suggest, but keep the game bonuses and penalties (perhaps with some tweaks)? I'd still need to find a way to include thri-kreen. Maybe leave them at Priority A and as clearly non-human?
I must admit that I'm quickly swinging around to a less system-first approach. Once I free myself of trying to shoehorn Dark Sun into the TROS mold, it does flow pretty easily. Thanks for some good suggestions, Ron. :-)
On 4/9/2003 at 7:51pm, Matt Snyder wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Ron Edwards wrote: Hi Dave,
Last thought: here's my non-canonical Dark Sun mod - drop the non-human races. Oh, do have cannibal midgets and great big hulking dudes and reedy nomads ... but don't call them "halflings," "half-giants," and "elves." All that was, in my view, a lame-ass way to D&D-ize what was obviously an original RPG setting before TSR bought it.
My memory's very hazy (and therefore as likely wrong as it is right), but I recall reading that Dark Sun's races, and in fact entire concept was not a prepared RPG setting picked up by TSR, but rather it was the result of a TSR thought experiment -- a "What if" of D&D turned inside-out. Taking the "opposite" or other variations on the D&D tropes to see what results. I have always considered DS a reactionary take on D&D Fantasy ... by D&D-ers, and never something that existed outside of that. It was like radicalism-from-within.
I actually really liked Dark Sun, and ROS is a nice, gritty fit. But you're right -- no Psionisicist or no Templars means no Dark Sun!
On 4/9/2003 at 8:31pm, Dave Turner wrote:
RE: Dark Sun racial packages
Matt Snyder wrote:
I actually really liked Dark Sun, and ROS is a nice, gritty fit. But you're right -- no Psionisicist or no Templars means no Dark Sun!
My initial feeling had been to keep templars, but to make them very powerful bureaucrats without the magical power derived from their sorcerer-king/queen. But if I'm throwing the shackles off and plowing psionics and priestly magic back into the mix, then I could easily add templar magic too. ;-)
And I think you're right regarding the origins of Dark Sun. I've never heard the theory that it was an independent setting purchased by TSR. I'd always assumed as you did, that it was an in-house radicalism.
This thread is proving to be quite helpful. Any other criticisms or suggestions would be welcome. No one has commented on the general balance of the racial packages. Does anyone feel that the balance is off, aside from the concern over a MA vs. Wit penalty?
On 4/9/2003 at 10:17pm, sirjaguar wrote:
Re: Psionics
I'm using a system similar to the one Ron described in my TROS campaign (a sci-fi setting sort of Fading Sunish). My backlash is to force SA point loss, the idea being that using lots of psionics tends to flatline you into someone with little drive, feeling, etc.