I like Trollbabe, and I wanna give it a good print treatment for use at my table.

Ron, or anybody, any recommendations? It's a 45 page PDF, 8.5x11 sheets. What's a good way to go? Coil bound? Staple? Perfect binding for a book that small is probably out of the question.

Hi there,

For the hard copies I sold at GenCon last year, I printed it up double-sided with a couple of blanks thrown in at strategic points, on pretty nice white paper, including a color cover. I then used a clear plastic front and a black plastic back, and coil-bound it.

Works great - the single remaining copy from GenCon rides around with me a lot in the carry-bag (a.k.a. man-purse) for me to peruse and consider new scenarios. It lies flat and stands up to some rough handling during transport and play.

Best,
Ron

You know, Ron, for some of the products that aren't planned for market wide release, you might be able to get good POD setups for people who want a printed (kinda) version. I'd stick with hardcover too, but then I'm a fan of keeping these products on my shelf forever.

ttfn - woody

Hi Woody,

Way ahead of ya ... I'm thinking of going to hard-copy only with Trollbabe, and maybe even asking you if you would do fulfilment for a product that isn't aimed at store distribution.

Best,
Ron

Can do. Direct only works fine, but you'll only need me if you print stock rather than print to order.

ttfn - woody

Hell, sign me up. I'd shell out for the hardcover version.

Best,

Blake

Just to let you know that a hardcover trollbabe has potential...

What Blake said.


Take care,

Fabrice.

I'll buy that!

...and for more than a dollar, you'll be happy to hear...

Wulf

Sign me the hell up for a seat on the bandwagon...!

Hi there,

Woody, I think we're making music together, because I was thinking about a short-print run of some kind, 300 copies or something like that - kind of one-step-up from Kinko's Special. James V. West seems to have worked out a good arrangement with his printer for The Questing Beast, and if it flies for him, I'll just walk in his footsteps.

In other words, not POD. So ... h'm ....

Best,
Ron

"Limited Run" ;-)

ttfn - woody

This question's for Trollbabe fans ...

I have a serious ethics problem with charging PDF-customers full price for a print version of the same game, even with revisions.

The hard copy of Trollbabe would have a bevy of new illustrations, more scenario and in-play examples, and one possible significant rules-change (the Social roll, as discussed in Actual Play). I don't think much else would change - most of the text stays, same cover, etc.

So if the book was ... um, $18 or $20, how badly am I screwing people by simply charging that for everyone, case closed?

Would splitting the difference be all right? Such that $5 off the book price is granted to previous customers? Or ...?

All comments are welcome.

Best,
Ron

Ron,

since you asked...

I baught Trollbabe maybe three to six days ago, printed it, bound it, etc.

Still, I really love to have actual books, and so far the quality value of what I got from Adept Press (a.k.a. you) is really high.

So, yeah, I would appreciate a discount price for the pdf buyers. How much ? Well, I dunno, but 5-8 $ looks like a good deal to me.

Take care,

Fabrice.

Ron Edwards wrote: I have a serious ethics problem with charging PDF-customers full price for a print version of the same game, even with revisions.

Hi Ethan,

It's always difficult to explain one's ethics. For my money, the very existence of D&D 3.5 is a fucked thing, and I won't pay full price for it under any circumstances, no matter how good the game is. Same goes for (e.g.) Mage 2nd edition back in the mid-90s, or especially that prime example, the Star Wars D20 rewrites. All of these indicate, to me, publishers that are picking their customers' pockets.

I'm not sure if that explains anything, but I hope it clarifies my position a little.

If I do go with Trollbabe book-form, then I'm learning toward a $5 price-break for previous PDF customers. Please note that this is not, and should never be referred to, as a "discount."

Best,
Ron

It sounds like a new product to me - I'd charge full price.

Now, part of that is I bring a separate ethics issue with me: buying a creator-owned RPG is as much supporting the creator as buying a product. And I'd support the creator of Trollbabe to the tune of $20, no problem.

What Clinton says. Discount is nice, but I think there's a distinct difference between a .pdf and a full-blown hard copy. Plus there's the desire to support independents.

Best,

Blake

With new material and scenarios and examples, I'd happily pay $20 (plus some ridiculous postage fee to Scotland, I suppose...).

Hey, how about a comic strip annotated with play notes?

Wulf

Wulf wrote:
Hey, how about a comic strip annotated with play notes?
Wulf

I would like a hardcopy of this game.

Ron, I'll agree with you that D&D 3.5 is kinda fucked. Perhaps not a good example, since a lot of people have pretty strong opinions about that particular product, myself included. You bring up the WW 2nd edition games, though, too, and I see that as a little different, and I'm not sure why. Screw all that, though - we're talking about Trollbabe, and what you want to do, not what other companies are doing or have done.

Anyway, my position is that the Trollbabe hardcopy product you describe is a legitimately new product, and it is well within reason to charge full price for it. I'd pay it. If you decide to offer a price reduction for customers of the PDF version, that's no skin off my ass, and a pretty doggone nice thing to do.

Rock on.

As a purchaser of the Trollbabe PDF, and somebody who'd definitely be interested in a nicely printed copy of Trollbabe, I'm in favor of small credit for PDF purchasers.

Partly because it might save me a couple bucks of course :) but also because it gives me that "warm glow" that an author actually has some respect and appretiation for his or her fan base, rather than being all "buy my game, pigs!"

:) :) :)

Mmmm... The Judy Tenuta RPG. Now there is a product the world is crying out for.

I just purchased Trollbabe a couple weeks back (at the same time we played the Elfs game). I'd be happy to pay about 20 for a bound version with even more play descriptions.

I'd say it sounds like there's enough extra value to not need a price break...being a bound book is extra value too.

Hmm, the social roll...at first I was very in favor of keeping it the same(I like Social being the best roll), but it really does favor 2,3,4,7,8,and 9's in play doesn't it. Rolls that are already a high chance for success.
[edit- you could leave the Social, Fighting, and Magic categories off the roll types... 1 to N-1, n+1 to 10, lowest plus the N...then let the players assign which roll type has which Category. This way you could have some folk with Social as their highest prob, or Fighting as the middle prob etc]

Trollbabe play on indie-netgaming has been good so far with Paganini and Chris Edwards. A bit slow as I flip through the rules (learning curve). The medium of typed text is slower too.
So far so good with two pretty short sessions (I had limited time), I'll be compiling the Narration and Out of character logs for those first two sessions soon. I'd like to put both Logs on the same page in separate columns matched with time entered, to get a sense of 'Free and Clear', dice rolls, and such.

Getting Trollbabe in print would be like having your favorite band play a live gig at your house. Sounds good to me.

More of the same:

I like hardback books, and Trollbabe as a hardback book is great. If it costs me $20 then I'll probably end up paying for it in the end--even without a price break.

Incidently, it's not the fact that I payed $10 for the pdf that would make me want a discount, but rather it's the cost of Kinkos. I already shelled out some extra cash for printing and binding. Now it's kind of like: damn I shoulda waited and saved my cash. But of course that's not anyone's fault but my own.

Oh and by the way, Ron, does your question mean that you're going to actually go ahead with a hardcopy Trollbabe run?

Hello all my friends ...

[sudden shift to savagery] Quit calling it a damn discount! [snap back to very innocent expression]

The news is, I'd like to, but I'm not 100% yet. Part of it involves getting a new artist on board; I know who I want, but I don't have her commitment yet.

Some thoughts about it include (1) including some of the comics with the artists' permission, (2) revamping and expanding some examples, (3) clarifying the Modifiers rules, and (4) maybe pontificating a bit on the "way it looks" during play as an introduction.

Best,
Ron