Topic: Fellow authors and game designers, your thoughts please...
Started by: Kester Pelagius
Started on: 4/14/2003
Board: Connections
On 4/14/2003 at 6:52pm, Kester Pelagius wrote:
Fellow authors and game designers, your thoughts please...
Greetings,
As I slowly iron out and pound the few remaining crinkles in Crystal Spheres into sumbission I find myself wondering whether or not I should include a sample questionnaire for the playtesters or allow them to respond as they see fit. I do like the idea of a questionnaire, just not sure what sorts of questions, or how many, should be included.
How have those of you here who have sought out playtesters over the forums handled this?
Secondly, what are your thoughts on non-disclosure forms? What are they good for, really? I mean, for print material, sure. But e-texts?
Just curious about the latter. It's amazing the sort of information you can stumble on in a google search these days, lots of words, very little actual explanation of why's and whatfore's.
Thanks in advance for taking the time to reply.
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 4/14/2003 at 7:09pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Fellow authors and game designers, your thoughts please...
My recommendation would be "no" to the questionnare as such. But "yes" to guidance as to what specific issues you are looking for feed back on.
Which part of the rules did you struggle over and even now are worried that they might be too cumbersome, or might encourage something you don't want, or might be out of wack in some other way. Right in the text with these rules I'd use out and out "designers notes"...asides spoken directly to the playtesters saying "I'm not sure if I really like <whatever>. This is what I've come up with, but something seems missing and I'm not sure what. What I'm trying to accomplish is <whatever>" As an example.
This will alert the testers to parts of the game that still have "under construction signs on them" and require them to pay particular attention to.
Similarly notes about places where you think the rules are strong..."I'm really excited about this because it lets players do <whatever>" That way if they're playing they'll be more inclined to notice that effect and beable to respond as to whether it actually functioned as advertised or not.
So in otherwords...I think the more information up front about what you're looking for the better...but I don't really see a questionairre format being all that useful of a way to deliver this information...unless you're much better at writing them than I.
On 4/14/2003 at 9:55pm, Sidhain wrote:
RE: Fellow authors and game designers, your thoughts please...
My suggestion is to provide specific testing guidelines. After a particularly negative response from one playtest round,I was pointed out to me that the responses were not /playtesting/ they were critiquing, and the two were not the same. One is taking the mechanics as they stand-- as presented and using them to see if they are mechanically sound, and produces the results that are aimed for--the other is opinion on some things, pure and simple not solid work at /testing/.
On 4/14/2003 at 11:49pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Fellow authors and game designers, your thoughts please...
Excellent point Sidhain.
What stage of design are these rules in Kester. Are they in 60% finished I'm looking for some proof of concept play to see if this actually holds together, or are they in 90% finished just looking for some thorough testing to see if there are any holes or broken spots.
If the latter, Sidhain's absolutely right, you want actual Play TESTING, not simply play.
On 4/15/2003 at 1:58am, ethan_greer wrote:
RE: Fellow authors and game designers, your thoughts please...
Questionaires may tend to cause your playtesters to focus only on the questions raised by it, and might cause some flaws to be missed because they're not on the radar, so to speak. So I'd say no questionaire.
On 4/15/2003 at 3:13am, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: Fellow authors and game designers, your thoughts please...
Greetings Valamir,
Valamir wrote: Excellent point Sidhain.
What stage of design are these rules in Kester. Are they in 60% finished I'm looking for some proof of concept play to see if this actually holds together, or are they in 90% finished just looking for some thorough testing to see if there are any holes or broken spots.
A little bit of both, actually.
In terms of actual rules I'd say they are 90% complete (sans consideration for illustrations and such) but there is also a test for 'concept' that I would like feedback on. In several categories.
First, the background and setting.
Second, the ship to ship section.
Third, the character creation rules.
Fourth, an overall review of basic organisation of material.
Valamir wrote: If the latter, Sidhain's absolutely right, you want actual Play TESTING, not simply play.
Yes, much testing. Which is why I am trying to get what I have as tight as possbile.
I've already got the ship pack ZIPped. It's 1.54 MB, or thereabouts. The cover is done, such as it is. Now I am concentrating on the ship to ship section and magic rules. Though why I decided at the last minute to take one of my other works in progress and incorporate it into what I have is beyond me, but I did, and I think the end result will make for a fuller playing experience.
It's getting feedback, good or bad, that worries me.
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 4/15/2003 at 5:59am, Christoffer Lernö wrote:
RE: Fellow authors and game designers, your thoughts please...
Again Chris, I recommend you simply upload the game somewhere as it is and provide a link. The more accesible you make your game the better.
See, you're asking us to:
1. Read this article
2. Decide we are interested in the game without knowing much about it
3. Contact you
4. Wait for you to send the game
If you want lots of feedback, just post a link to it, preferably both a zipped one and a direct link to the unzipped pdf to make access as easy as possible.
We don't know if it's good yet so how can we know if we're interested in it, right? :) There are so many games here on the Forge anyway. Just make it accessible and I'm sure you'll get some feedback.
On 4/15/2003 at 8:06am, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: Fellow authors and game designers, your thoughts please...
Greetings Chris,
Christoffer Lernö wrote:
See, you're asking us to:
1. Read this article
2. Decide we are interested in the game without knowing much about it
3. Contact you
4. Wait for you to send the game
No. I am asking what others have done, if anything, in regards to seeking desired feedback about their games from playtesters.
And, in one post above, I provided four points of interest that I'd like specific feedback about. Which, now that you have me here, I think I could snip and include in the text somewhere. At least in this thread.
As for point #2: I did post about it, once or twice. Though I have revised some things since then. So, yeah, I probably should detail an new outline of the game and what it has, or at least do a better write up than I have done to date.
Christoffer Lernö wrote:
We don't know if it's good yet so how can we know if we're interested in it, right? :) There are so many games here on the Forge anyway. Just make it accessible and I'm sure you'll get some feedback.
Well if The Forge had a upload section for members to grab playtest materials this would probably be the only place I'd consider ULing files. Then again the game, as it stands, really is not on par with Sorcerer or Donjon. Of course lately I've been rather vague so I'd probably say something like: "It's evolved into more of a meta-setting, or maybe its a backdrop with traditional fantasy elements or... well... it's what it is."
Which says nothing about the Aetherial Void in which the Local Solar systems rests, nor the Great Beyond that is found beyond the Crystal Shell barrier, or how both together comprise the Plenum. It doesn't even mention the space mermaids, called Dakini, which like to perform complex acrobatics as they follow ships through space. Or. . .
Hmm. I may want to detail that too and post it. Darn yer hide Lernö you're giving me more notes-to-self about things that need to be worked on! ;)
Bah. Still, thanks for letting me know that a more proper overview of what Crystal Spheres is should be posted. Somewhere.
In the meantime, if anyone else has any suggestions about how to subtly go about ensuring that the feedback desired is actually given... I'm all ears.
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 4/15/2003 at 11:31am, Christoffer Lernö wrote:
RE: Fellow authors and game designers, your thoughts please...
Sorry, that should teach me to remember to read the original posting in a thread instead of just the last comments.
That said, let's tackle the original subject.
I'm a little bit hazy about this: what's the current situation? Are you sending it off to other GMs or?
If you're doing it yourself it should be pretty easy to come up with questions after the session in a fairly straightforward manner.
I've have really good experiences GMing on #indierpgs and getting great feedback afterwards.
On 4/15/2003 at 4:09pm, Marco wrote:
RE: Fellow authors and game designers, your thoughts please...
The method I've used to get feedback most consistenly is a trade. I'll show you mine, you show me yours. We give each other the feedback we'd want.
This could be playtest or read-through or whatever (art critique, spelling errors, etc.)
I'm doing that now with someone and I expect some good results (I've given him pages of feedback already).
I would go with the questionaire: just make sure it focuses on questions *you* have (not "what did you like most" but "there are two ways of buying skills--was it clear when to use which?")
I do not believe non-disclosure is especially effective here. If you can't enforce your basic copyright, how will you enforce an NDA? Why would you want to? If you can and intend to enforce the copyright ... then what would an NDA add?
-Marco
On 4/15/2003 at 5:43pm, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: Fellow authors and game designers, your thoughts please...
Greetings Marco,
Well, whatever you, my fellow posters, do, don't EVER accidentally hit the "ESC" key. Lost my entire ever loving message!
Who knew? *sigh*
Marco wrote: The method I've used to get feedback most consistenly is a trade. I'll show you mine, you show me yours. We give each other the feedback we'd want.
This could be playtest or read-through or whatever (art critique, spelling errors, etc.)
...
I would go with the questionaire: just make sure it focuses on questions *you* have (not "what did you like most" but "there are two ways of buying skills--was it clear when to use which?")
To recap: After giving it some thought, and not wanting to over burden GMs with more than learning the system and getting their players to play it, I've opted to mention a few of the areas I'd like to get feedback on in the opening letter.
It's not a questionnaire, but I'm hoping it will work. *knock on wood*
Marco wrote: I do not believe non-disclosure is especially effective here. If you can't enforce your basic copyright, how will you enforce an NDA? Why would you want to? If you can and intend to enforce the copyright ... then what would an NDA add?
Yeah. Funny thing is, when I did a google search for sample questionnaires (you never know what you can find) I stumbled on this site for an 'alledged' company (I say that since I've never heard of them nor seen their 'games' mentioned anywhere) that seemed to be a front page to sign up for the playtest version of the games.
Only they wanted you to fill out a form, give a valid e-mail (or two), sign a NDA, and. . . well the long and the short of it is I think you'd have to be a circus monkey to jump through all those hoops!
But I was just curious what you all thought. :)
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 4/15/2003 at 5:52pm, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: Fellow authors and game designers, your thoughts please...
Greetings,
First off I'd like to thank everyone who has responded so far.
Christoffer Lernö wrote: Sorry, that should teach me to remember to read the original posting in a thread instead of just the last comments.
:):):)
Christoffer Lernö wrote: That said, let's tackle the original subject.
I'm a little bit hazy about this: what's the current situation? Are you sending it off to other GMs or?
Presently I am looking for willing playtesters, people who think they might be able to get a group together to test the game out in actual play or, failing that, someone who thinks they would like to generate a few characters and just test the basic mechanics on their own.
Christoffer Lernö wrote: If you're doing it yourself it should be pretty easy to come up with questions after the session in a fairly straightforward manner.
Hmm, guess I wasn't clear about that.
No, the question is about how to get feedback from playtesters in the forums. IE: Those who get the files and live, well, where ever they might live on this fine world of ours.
Note: It's not a question of strong arming for feedback, rather it was a question of "Should I point out that I want specific feedback or provide a questionnaire or just wait and see what the playtesters have to say." Based on the experiences of those here who might have done something similar themselves.
Sorry if I was vague on that point in my follow up posts.
Christoffer Lernö wrote: I've have really good experiences GMing on #indierpgs and getting great feedback afterwards.
Ah, but what I need are third party opinions and comments about the state of what I have.
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 4/15/2003 at 6:31pm, Christoffer Lernö wrote:
RE: Fellow authors and game designers, your thoughts please...
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think chances are slim that people will pick up your game and play it on the off-chance it's working and they think it's fun.
I think there is no way around doing some serious playtesting yourself with it before others will bite.
If you want people to check the mechanics, then do the free download thing.
My game The Evil has been updated a few times, has been played on indierpgs and it's "finished". But I don't think there's anyone actually using it. Your game is in a less finished state from what I gather. I believe that making it a free download is the best you can do, together with GMing it to people. Like on #indierpgs for example.