Topic: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
Started by: Sylus Thane
Started on: 4/15/2003
Board: Indie Game Design
On 4/15/2003 at 5:20pm, Sylus Thane wrote:
Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
Ok, so I've been toiling along got quite a bit done and then hit a huge wall.
Ouch!
I am currently working on the magic system for my fantasy setting and here is what i have so far.
For the setting: Magic is beginning to return to the world of Phoryan. The signs are everywhere. People carrying mysterious artifacts found in out of the way places. Books that speak to people of ancient spells. Great fear of the ancient mysteries is spreading. Parents speaking of their strange child doing things in fearfull tones. Creatures once thought extinct or driven away are steadily returning to claim their places. The lure of magic is seductive, it is easy, anyone can do it, some are more powerful than others of course, but is hard, very hard to let go of it.
For the system: So far I have two forms of magic users. Sorcerers who use their force of will to make things happen. And wizards who use spells to channel the magical energies of the world.
And here is where I am stuck.
For Sorcerors they have a power pool based on their Willpower stat x10 in which they may spend points in order to create magical effects. If they spend more than half their power pool on one effect they are subject to possible unconciousness or even death for the energy they have channeled may have been too powerful for them to control. they may increase their power pool buy either increasing their willpower stat or purchasing extra pool points with experience.
Now I want people to be creative but I'm not sure what to do to show how much certain effects may cost in power points.
Wizards are simpler in that they simply perform spells when rolling against their will+spellcraft skill. No points taken away for the spell to work and damage of certain spells equates to how well they roll.
Here's the problem with this. Spellbooks are rare, I want people to be creative in what they can do as far as creating spells, but I'm not sure what i should provide in the way of spell lists or spell books. Spells are powerful and magic is seductive, I need a bit of a way to show this.
Q1. How can I show how effects may cost for a sorcerer but still leaves things open for their own creativity?
Q2. How much in the way of spells do I provide for the setting so that people still feel they have room to be creative but have something to start from?
Q3. How can I possibly effectively show the seduction of mechanics mechanics wise? or should I even bother?
Thanks ahead of time,
Sylus
On 4/15/2003 at 5:36pm, szilard wrote:
Re: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
Sylus Thane wrote:
Q1. How can I show how effects may cost for a sorcerer but still leaves things open for their own creativity?
What about listing effect-based elements? I don't know what your basic mechanic is like, but what about having each power point used be equivalent to a certain number of (dice/bonus points/whatever) that can be applied to various effects. For instance, one power point might be equivalent to 2 units of stun damage, 1 unit of lethal damage, 2 units of protection against something narrow, or 1 unit of protection against something broad. You'd need to have some non-combat things in there as well. In addition, points could be dedicated to range, durations, visual effects, or whatever. It would be a sort of build-your-own-effect system.
Q2. How much in the way of spells do I provide for the setting so that people still feel they have room to be creative but have something to start from?
Well... what I would do is build a few from each of a variety of categories and then have some very clear guidelines for building your own. Also, you might want to make a list of spells that you don't detail... to give players a feel for the sorts of things that can be done and to encourage them to make up the specifics of these spells themselves (getting them in the habit of building spells).
Q3. How can I possibly effectively show the seduction of mechanics mechanics wise? or should I even bother?
Depending upon your mechanics, you might want to have a Will+Spellcraft roll that determines how many points can be safely used by Sorcerers. If this is rolled as the spell is being cast, it would serve to add some uncertainty as to the safety of magic... which sounds like something you might be going for.
Stuart
On 4/15/2003 at 6:39pm, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: Re: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
Greetings,
Sylus Thane wrote: For Sorcerors they have a power pool based on their Willpower stat x10 in which they may spend points in order to create magical effects. If they spend more than half their power pool on one effect they are subject to possible unconciousness or even death for the energy they have channeled may have been too powerful for them to control. they may increase their power pool buy either increasing their willpower stat or purchasing extra pool points with experience.
Simply put, having read to this point and no further, I don't like it.
Why?
Because the negative effects should come from a LACK of investiture of Will in the spell effect, not an over investiture, IMO.
IE: Set a level of required Will investiture to create the spell, allow for X above Y to be invested up to Z to create more stability in the affect.
Of course if you keep (the drawback of expending Will) it as you have it this can work to advantage since, the more Will invested into a spell equates to fatigue and *gasp* possibly even coma and death. Thus there is a base level of investiture for the spell, with an associate %ile chance (perhaps) of the spell going awry. But, the kicker is, the spell can be made more stable by investing MORE Will into it, but to do THAT risks danger. Thus the player will have to weigh how much they really want to cast that spell before they cast it!
:)
Make sense?
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 4/15/2003 at 7:13pm, bluegargantua wrote:
RE: Re: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
Sylus Thane wrote:
Q1. How can I show how effects may cost for a sorcerer but still leaves things open for their own creativity?
Ars Magica has a loosely defined scale that lets you know how powerful the spell you're creating will be. The FATE-deck version of Dragonlance also had a basic menu showing how much a spell would cost taking into account range, area, effect, etc. In that particular game, the capacity of magic was somewhat diminished -- no mind-altering spells for example. But I think that would be incredibly useful here.
Or perhaps rather than having a specific cost per specific effect, you can make things more fluid and use a bidding system. Something where the sorcerer states an effect and an initial bid. The GM can either accept the bid then and there and let the effect stand, or they may up the bid. The sorcerer must top the bid to complete the effect or relent and lose some magic reserves. You could use this system to organically grow a custom menu each campaign, or every spell could have a new "selling price" at each casting. This makes things a little more uncertain for the Sorcerer, but does allow the GM to tweak the magic on the fly and enhance the drama (those fireballs to start campfires may be almost impossible to cast, but you can toast the bad guy all day with 'em).
Q2. How much in the way of spells do I provide for the setting so that people still feel they have room to be creative but have something to start from?
For Sorcerers: On a menu system, you can easily create a dozen or so spells and show the process used to build them, possibly an extra two showing the same/similar effect achieved in two different ways. For a bidding system, you'd need several examples of play and lots of advice for GMs and players alike on how to make the system enhance the game.
For Wizards: Since they cast from books and since the books are so critical for them, come up with half a dozen books (each with 2-3 spells in them) and then go into loving detail talking about the book (it's appearance, known history, oddities, quirks, etc.) and then go into detail on the spells themselves. Each book should be distinct and unique.
Normally, in a game focused on magic users, I'd say that the spell list would need to be pretty extensive. But if the game is about magic users who are coming to learn and understand their powers (and hence, are blazing new trails), then it's entirely appropriate to have a rather short spell list -- so long as the ability to create new spells is easy and fast for both players and their characters.
Q3. How can I possibly effectively show the seduction of mechanics mechanics wise? or should I even bother?
You could use a simple magic addiction rule. Something where the more you use magic, the more likely it is that you'll become addicted and want/need to use magic again and again and again. This can spiral out of control pretty quickly though.
Frankly, you probably won't need to bother. If all the players are magic users and if they have access to a highly customizable magic system, then it becomes the ultimate "hammer" and everything they encounter will always be a "nail".
later
Tom
On 4/15/2003 at 8:09pm, szilard wrote:
RE: Re: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
Kester Pelagius wrote: Greetings,
Sylus Thane wrote: For Sorcerors they have a power pool based on their Willpower stat x10 in which they may spend points in order to create magical effects. If they spend more than half their power pool on one effect they are subject to possible unconciousness or even death for the energy they have channeled may have been too powerful for them to control. they may increase their power pool buy either increasing their willpower stat or purchasing extra pool points with experience.
Simply put, having read to this point and no further, I don't like it.
Why?
Because the negative effects should come from a LACK of investiture of Will in the spell effect, not an over investiture, IMO.
Well, it depends upon the sort of effect he's going for here.
In a lot of fantasy fiction, it is just the act of drawing too much power, succumbing to hubris, or over-reaching onesself that can cause problems.
Since the power in this case comes from the Will itself, saying that using too little of it is dangerous doesn't make much sense.
I think there are two places where Will can come into play here:
1. As the source of power. The more Will invested in this, the more potentially dangerous to onesself the magic is, but it is also proportionately more powerful...
2. As a control on the power. The more Will invested toward this end, the less dangerous to onesself the magic is, but it is also less powerful.
The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Stuart
On 4/15/2003 at 8:41pm, Sylus Thane wrote:
RE: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
Well I had a really freakin cool reply all done but my internet went bonkers right before I could hit send so it's lost in the ether.
From what people have posted so far and what i have in my head here is what i have so far.
In regards to willpower, you can think of it as a players conduit to channel the energies of the magical world. The more that you try and channel the bigger the opening, so the more likely you are to let in more than you can control.
I do like the idea of bidding points for effects. the trick would be implementing it. Perhaps a way to do it would be that a player could bid his power points for an effect he would like to create, the gm would secretly have the total needed in his mind. Then when the player uses his power the gap in bid from total needed would show the effect. If the player bid less than the total needed he only gets a partial success that the gm can then narrate a result from.
This way we can also show a player working on something very great over time by working at it slowly and only spending so many points at a time. Such as creating a wonder or very powerful weapon. as the needed point total may exceed their power pool but they are working on it gradually.
Now we then could have it that if a player bids more than half his power pool to achieve an effect and succeds he can then add the excess to his amount in which he can spend at one time. Making him more powerful in the sense that he can spend more points at one time without side effect.
The question would be what to do in the case of failure?
In general you can look at the difference between sorcerers and wizards like this.
Sorcerers are very powerful in that they create or achieve almost any effect but can only perform them within the limit of their powerpool.
Wizards on the other hand, working from spells aren't as powerful but can perform them repeatedly. But, they are limited to the effects of the spell.
Thoughts so far?
Sylus
On 4/15/2003 at 10:09pm, SrGrvsaLot wrote:
RE: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
I do like the idea of bidding points for effects. the trick would be implementing it. Perhaps a way to do it would be that a player could bid his power points for an effect he would like to create, the gm would secretly have the total needed in his mind. Then when the player uses his power the gap in bid from total needed would show the effect. If the player bid less than the total needed he only gets a partial success that the gm can then narrate a result from.
You might also want to think about what happens if the character bids too many points. Are they simply wasted, or does the effect, being infused with too much power, grow out of control and do things the player never intended? If there's a consequence for spending more than the cost of the spell (but less than the amount necessary to knock you out), then players must learn to be careful when using their magic. It can also set up a neat sort of bluff-counterbluff thing between the player and GM.
On 4/15/2003 at 10:26pm, Sylus Thane wrote:
RE: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
I rather like your little add in SrGrvsaLot.
You could then make it excess points actually boost the spell unintentially. But, a positive side effect would be that a player would then gain a certain level of competency for that effect and knowing how much is too much. Players would then be able to create a somewhat mental spellbook, knowing that if they spend this many points on this effect they get a certain outcome.
Then later on if they do not need the spell to have so much oomph, they spend less points on it. this would also allow players to become known for certain things. Like a sorcerer known for his flame effects. Could be that at first he was just trying to start a small fire but instead set the whole prarie ablaze because he tied too hard, but he will also learn some of his limits the next time.
Then the question to players would be how much do they want to push their limits. Do they want to tempt the fates for promises of being able to do more, or be content with what they know they can do. I think this is where part of the seduction of magic can come into place as well.
Thanks,
Sylus
On 4/16/2003 at 6:06pm, greyorm wrote:
RE: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
For the system: So far I have two forms of magic users. Sorcerers who use their force of will to make things happen. And wizards who use spells to channel the magical energies of the world.
That's exactly like 3rd Edition D&D -- is that intentional? Why did you choose to do it this way?
Now I want people to be creative but I'm not sure what to do to show how much certain effects may cost in power points.
I really don't like point-buy systems, so I'm not the person to ask for advice on this. That said, have you looked at the SAGA system by WotC?
The SAGA system for DragonLance uses a a few simple charts to build the difficulty of a spell depending on various factors.
Q1. How can I show how effects may cost for a sorcerer but still leaves things open for their own creativity?
Don't be afraid to list a couple or even a number of examples -- these will only be helpful to those who want to use their own creativity, while a lack of examples will be a major hinderance to all involved. Those who do not want to spend time making up their own spells on-the-fly or between sessions will most likely not choose to play spellcasters.
Additionally, you can provide some sort of reward to the individual who does choose to create their own spells. As I don't know the exact workings of your system, I can't comment what that might be, but perhaps a small bonus to the roll or a few additional skill points (if there are advancement mechanics in your game).
Q2. How much in the way of spells do I provide for the setting so that people still feel they have room to be creative but have something to start from?
As many as required, but no more.
Sorry, but there really isn't a good answer to this question, and it is going to vary from individual to individual.
I would personally write no more than a handful, but that's me.
Q3. How can I possibly effectively show the seduction of mechanics mechanics wise? or should I even bother?
Undoubtedly. Yes, yes, yes. It's a core concept of the magic you present above, and it would be a terrible waste to leave it solely as unreactive Color.
First, figure out what sort of effect the seductivness should have: what does someone being seduced by the power feel like? Why do they feel they need to use it again? Go from there.
On 4/16/2003 at 6:36pm, Sylus Thane wrote:
RE: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
That's exactly like 3rd Edition D&D -- is that intentional? Why did you choose to do it this way?
Actually I've been developing this system for close to ten years now, setting included, and it just seemed natural to have the types of magic users divided up this way. I actually had no idea that 3E di things this way as well. But, having never played it I'm not surprised.
Undoubtedly. Yes, yes, yes. It's a core concept of the magic you present above, and it would be a terrible waste to leave it solely as unreactive Color.
First, figure out what sort of effect the seductivness should have: what does someone being seduced by the power feel like? Why do they feel they need to use it again? Go from there.
Thanks for the advice, I'll definitly take this into consideration. Guess I'm just gonna have to look at my mechanic and see if anything jumps up and yel ooh ooh let me show them the power.
Sylus
On 4/16/2003 at 6:37pm, bluegargantua wrote:
RE: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
Sylus Thane wrote:
Sorcerers are very powerful in that they create or achieve almost any effect but can only perform them within the limit of their powerpool.
Wizards on the other hand, working from spells aren't as powerful but can perform them repeatedly. But, they are limited to the effects of the spell.
Hmmm...I had a slightly different picture of Wizards based on your original description. I got the impression that Wizards had some wildly powerful spells, which could be cast reliably, but they only had what was in the spellbooks...and those were rare.
Under that light, the spellbooks that you do find could be a total grab bag of effects, most of which were either useless for most adventuring (say a spell to magically bathe and clean you) or total overkill (say, a spell that kills off everything within 100 miles of you) with only a few spells that were really utilitarian (a light spell, or a spell to improve crop growth). You wind up with a character who can only do a limited number of things, but when they swing into action, they'll almost always be successful.
This also forces the Wizard to try and come up with new effects -- or go questing to find better books. Now you can collaborate with the player on new spells the wizard brings in. You can ask them to describe the spell effect they'd like to find in a book and then have them choose "too much" or "too little". When they finally get the book, it will have the spell they're looking for but it will either be a.) way overpowered if they picked too much or b.) really weak if they picked too little. Crafty players who pick an effect of "summons a million zombie wariors to do my bidding" and then pick "too little" may hope to get a small horde, but a crafty GM will give them a spell that summons up a million zombie warriors...who are so decayed they can barely move and hardly form a credible threat. Wiser players will try and come up with something that the GM won't penalize too heavily and then try to make it work. As with the bidding method for sorcerers, this will require a fair amount of supporting material for the GM to help them tailor the spell requests to what will make the game better for everyone.
later
Tom
On 4/16/2003 at 6:49pm, Sylus Thane wrote:
RE: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
Your right Tom, I contradicted myself unintentionally. It should have have said that "Wizards seem not as powerful as they are limited to the spells they possess."
Your right on when talking about what a wizard would have to do get more powerful, either make new spells, or find them.
I do like your idea of the collaborative effort for getting spells. Your right though, it will require a reasonable amount of examples to make it clear how it works.
Hmm, lot's more work to do.
Thanks
Sylus
On 4/16/2003 at 6:51pm, bluegargantua wrote:
RE: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
Sylus Thane wrote:
The question would be what to do in the case of failure?
I'd say he'd lose the points he wagered to begin with. This is also a potentially good time to slot in magic addiction rules if you go with them.
Considering that sorcerer's bend reality to their Will, perhaps failure means that the sorcerer goes slightly insane. They only manage to deceive themselves. Perhaps they hallucinate that their effect worked. This could be fun because if you hide the success/failure from the player, the character will never be quite sure if they pulled it off or not. The downside is that the sorcerer will be asking his buddies if they can verify the effect every time he does something.
Broadening the hallucination to include everyone nearby wouldn't improve the situation, but you could say that new elements show up, some of which may be real, some of which may be fake. Wandering monsters that suddenly appear will get old fast, but perhaps they see a foe cast a spell, or an ally thinks he's been badly hurt, or they think they see the cavalry coming over the hill to save the day...maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. But the party will lose a round or two trying to cope with the distorted reality.
later
Tom
On 4/16/2003 at 7:52pm, Sylus Thane wrote:
RE: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
Well I would say in the case of simple failure, nothing happens and the points you tried to use to harness the magical energies are just spent and you have to regain your strength like normal to get them back.
But, in the case of critical failures I would be willing to say that the points bid or used(in the case of effects they are already proficient at) that the points are lost forever and have to be bought back with experience.
So far all of this works out well. It gives both forms of magic use a double edged sword effect.
Now as far as mechanically showing the seduction of magic, or it's addiction, I'm not sure.
When you use magic it makes you feel good, when you use it well it makes you feel powerful. When your not using it you can feel kind of at a loss, especially after using it alot. My game doesn't have advantages/disadvantages, so maybe a simple willpower roll with a modifier would suffice, and leave the rest to roleplaying. people who make their willpower roll not to use it are fine, the ones who fail maybe have a modifier to everything else they do until they get their fix. Then the process would start all over again, only harder.
Not sure still thinking about this one.
Thanks
Sylus
On 4/16/2003 at 8:01pm, szilard wrote:
RE: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
Sylus Thane wrote:
Now as far as mechanically showing the seduction of magic, or it's addiction, I'm not sure.
When you use magic it makes you feel good, when you use it well it makes you feel powerful. When your not using it you can feel kind of at a loss, especially after using it alot. My game doesn't have advantages/disadvantages, so maybe a simple willpower roll with a modifier would suffice, and leave the rest to roleplaying. people who make their willpower roll not to use it are fine, the ones who fail maybe have a modifier to everything else they do until they get their fix. Then the process would start all over again, only harder.
Not sure still thinking about this one.
Thanks
Sylus
I'd recommend a carrot over a stick. You want magic to be seductive and addictive? Then make using magic more attractive to players, not less so.
So, the mage gets a rush from using magic? Represent that as a temporary bonus to something. Have a stick, too, if you want... that has longer-term effects that can be overcome in the short term by giving in and using magic (which, of course, gradually makes the longer term effects worse...).
Or have the GM give the player some chocolate every time the player's character uses magic.
Stuart
On 4/16/2003 at 8:10pm, Sylus Thane wrote:
RE: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
Thanks Stuart, I guess I'm just thinking to hard. Maybe I should go take a nap with my little girls and try and be a blank slate for awhile.
Sylus
On 4/16/2003 at 8:13pm, szilard wrote:
RE: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
I certainly didn't mean to be discouraging. If I came off that way, I'm sorry.
Stuart
On 4/16/2003 at 8:26pm, Sylus Thane wrote:
RE: Dawn of the Magi and the Magic of it
Oh no Stuart, you weren't being discouraging at all. sometimes you just read something and slap your forehead while going DOH! That's what happened when I read your post, i realized I was dealing all with the negatives but not really any of the positives. Please don't feel like you discouraged me, you did nothing of the sort. Just gave me cause to pause.
For all of you who have taken the time to repond to my threads and would like the current version of my game Frontier in which dawn of the Magi goes with, drop me a private message with an e-mail address and I'll send it to you and hopefully it will convey a better understanding of what i am trying to do. It would come just as a word file minus the artwork as i am in the middle of revising things.
Thanks,
Sylus