Topic: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Started by: Michael Hopcroft
Started on: 4/23/2003
Board: Publishing
On 4/23/2003 at 11:50pm, Michael Hopcroft wrote:
Is the FLGS obsolete?
I was thinking of starting a game store when i graduated from business school, but now I'm starting to wonder whether the FLGS we grew up with has been rendered obsolete. Columbia Games' recent announcement that they are going to direct sales only indicates some companies seem to think so. My own experience with the retail chain has been anything but encouraging as a publisher as well.
Will people be buying games in stores in four years when I graudate? And if not, what SHOULD I be doing? (There's no way to answer the second question, so I'll settle for the first).
On 4/24/2003 at 4:46am, Scorpio wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
I think it can still work, but you have to go 'outside the box'...have a game room for clubs/open nights/meetings, stay open late, do a lot of cross-marketing, even have computers with on-line capabilities....a real game zone, as it were.....maybe?
On 4/24/2003 at 5:07am, anonymouse wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
My problem with having computers for online gaming is that a lot of those customers get pretty disruptive. It's a good idea in theory, but.. <shrugs>. It doesn't help to ask those disrupters to leave, because they just wind up being replaced by others.
To answer the main point: I wouldn't say they're any more obsolete than any other store. But with places like Borders (and our own Powells) taking up gaming as mainstream, and thus carrying some of those books, the FLGS has to provide more to be attractive.
On 4/24/2003 at 6:14am, Scorpio wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Yea, unfortunately the target audience and customer base are at an age where a lot of them don't give a damn about other's property and authority...if you build a loyal clientle, they tend to self-police...but getting to that point is the gist!
I still think there is a concept that would work, though...
On 4/24/2003 at 2:33pm, samdowning wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
I think the FLGS has to expand in order to compete in the market. You could be a bookstore that sells all sorts of books with a back room for people to play in your store. I think playing in your store is key, though. And I don't think that online gaming is a direction to go. I've seen too many of the computerized game stores tank.
However, I think there is a place for computers in game stores, just not for playing Everquest Online, IYKWIM. I was just talking to one person who said he had to take our pdf to Kinko's just to print it out because his printer didn't have the capability. You could be the POD people are looking for and start a trend selling pdfs and charging for the printing.
On 4/24/2003 at 5:42pm, JSDiamond wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Mike,
Here is my experience (my opinion only) based upon what I have recently seen here in San Diego.
The game store can work. Local hangout Game Empires recently relocated to a larger facility where they could fit more tables for RPing all night. Game Empires has employees who actually *play* and the store has a strong rep for staying open 24 hours on weekends for all-nighters.
Game Empires is often crowded (*I will get back to this) and its patrons are fanatics like rabid pit bulls on a crack bender.
There are a couple of other stores here in SD county as well. All sell board games, RP games and assorted supplies, magazines, figures, etc.
We also have a WotC megastore. They also have LAN games on thirty stations as well as a dozen big tables BUT no RPing. The tables are for CCGs only. The place is loud with LAN players and screaming children playing Yu-gi-Oh and Pokemon. This is not flame bait; but NO gamer even mentions WotC's store. I never hear anyone even mention it, not even as a place to pick up spare dice. In San Diego, Game Empires is #1. But both GE and GameTown are (as well as a couple of hole-in-the-wall joints) loyally patronized. They are the quintessential game stores we love.
Summation: Scorpio and Anonymouse are dead-on correct.
*Crowds at Game Empires:
"Will they buy in four years?" I don't know, but I do know that I see college guys in Game Empires and they look like they walked out of a Mountain Dew commercial (I.e., they look to have dated girls). You know what I mean. And they are D&D3 players.
Summation: The game store and in-store gaming of the type we know and love is not (in my opinion) going away. As long as the core quality and friendly atmosphere exists, it will continue. Ron might have something to say about running your own game store being a potential 'heartbreaker' of a type all its own and he would be right.
There are many details to consider of course, but with thorough planning and execution I believe that it could be personally satisfying and a business success.
On 4/24/2003 at 7:06pm, Andy Kitkowski wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
The cross-marketing idea is the way /I/ would go.
In the ten year plan, if my wife and I are still in the area, is to make a tea house (my wife is an expert on leafy tea, and there's no coffee house/pavillion in the area that uses anything other than tea bags). While I wouldn't make half of it into a "gaming store", I'd certainly sell gaming books on the side, open up booths for casual gaming (including a casual gaming night), etc.
Maybe a coffee house/game shop might work? Thing is, it's important that you love what you combine. Don't combine, say, PC gaming or coffee or books or whatever if you have no interest in them. Believe me, it'll show.
Good luck.
-Andy
ps- I, like many of you, had the "run a game store" dream. Then, one day, I realized that all those unwashed grognards that hang around in the LGS and talk to the store owner emphatically about their Chaos Armies or 20th level bipolar paladins will be talking to me. My dream died that day, but not in a bad way (I also gained more respect for the social stamina of game store owners). Actually, it more or less evolved into that above tea hose idea. :-)
On 4/24/2003 at 7:59pm, Tundra wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Well, I guess I can jump in here and try to give you some more information, Micheal. I'm no expert (and each day I feel I'm getting more and more wrong about this market), and this is only touches your questions, but it's good info.
Upturn of the curve...
Back in the '80s we saw the first major rise of GAME stores, rather than Hobby stores with a game selection. The combination of easy availability of product for stores (lots of distributors), low cost for inventory, the newness of the pasttime, and the normal gamer habits of "must buy it all" made for easy profitability for anyone with enough cash to begin. Same on the manufacturer end, where anyone with access to a computer could publish their game and make money (it was sooo easy to make money then).
Downturn of the curve...
in the late 80's and early 90's it was no longer new, computer and console games were. The stores who never had good business planning closed, taking many distributors with them. Product sales consolidated to just a few companies, and even their sales were often not enough to keep them in business.
Upturn of the curve...
In the mid 90's TCGs boomed. It was new and fed into the normal gamer habits of "must buy it all". Anyone with a decent amount of money could afford to open a store, and regional sales meant that the secondary market (buying used cards or games that didn't sell other places at rock bottom prices) meant that it was easy to make money. On the manufacturer end (remember, these are mostly just gamers with companies, not companies with a game as product) many jumped on to the band wagon, because manufacturers love easy money even more than retailers.
Downturn of the curve...
Boom. Crash. It's not new anymore. Loyal purchasers get better prices via the Internet and don't spend as much in stores. Stores drop like flies, again taking distributors and manufacturers.
Upturn of the curve...
Year 2000. D&D3rd and D20. Manufacturers again see easy money and get heavy that direction. Massive number of titles released each month means store's scan the release lists, buy by branding rather than by interest, and for a while things are rosey for a few...
Downturn of the curve...
Note that in the last there is one thing missing...the increase in stores. There are less FLGS that there have been in previous upturns. Sales are still focused on top brands or branding. Stores aren't the only place to get those, so people have less need to go to stores. It's only the stores that understand their role to promote the Gaming Hobby, rather than promoting specific products, that are still doing well.
Conclusions: If "Loving Gaming" is your only reason to start a store or to mortgage your house to start a company, you WILL fail. However, if you can combine that with smart business tactics, good customer awareness, and the willingness to change when you see better ways to do things, you got a good shot. Indie companies who don't overextend themselves and keep their focus will ride out all the other companies who look at being the Next Big Thing. Ok, so they may never become full time businesses, but the melding of art, author, and fun makes gaming a nice lifetime hobby, and if the business pays for going to conventions, you're gold! ;-)
As an aside, Colombia has done this once before, in the late 90's. That time, they cut off distribution and only sold direct to retailers. For a while. To me this is less a failure of the FLGS and more Darwinism in the wargame world. Essentially, they are moving to the indie level by choice, and by doing so they can go back to enjoying their hobby (I hope for Tom at least) rather than fighting entropy with tools and energy they do not have. If it works for them, and they get refocused, they'll step back up again. But hopefully this will make it fun for them.
ttfn - woody
On 4/24/2003 at 8:31pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Tundra wrote:
Conclusions: If "Loving Gaming" is your only reason to start a store or to mortgage your house to start a company, you WILL fail. However, if you can combine that with smart business tactics, good customer awareness, and the willingness to change when you see better ways to do things, you got a good shot. Indie companies who don't overextend themselves and keep their focus will ride out all the other companies who look at being the Next Big Thing. Ok, so they may never become full time businesses, but the melding of art, author, and fun makes gaming a nice lifetime hobby, and if the business pays for going to conventions, you're gold! ;-)
ttfn - woody
And I can't imagine there's ever been an easier time to be a hobby business in gaming. We're all familiar with the publisher side but even the retail end is opening up. While E-business is not the overthrow everything model it was once hyped to be, it certainly is valid. I know a lot of guys making a nice chunk of change in the secondary market. Guys I know who used to work all year for a big score at the Origins Auction (like antique dealers) are now buying and selling in volume over E-bay. They'll buy 3-4 incomplete game copies in various stages of wear. Kit bash them together to get 2 complete sets at decent quality and sell them for double or treble.
If you like the social contact with gamers aspect more than the being in retail side...you'd be hard put to find a town of any decent size that doesn't have a community college within 30-45 minutes. CCs are rife with game clubs and if there isn't a good one, they usually welcome people interested in starting them. Bigger schools like Penn State had a whole staff of people dedicated to the "Free University" which was just a collection of student clubs organized to use campus facilites. There were at least 3 gaming clubs among the several hundred options.
If you're an organizer take advantage of the HUGE downturn in travel. Some hotels are so despirate for business they're giving block room convention style rates to much smaller groups and renting out conference facilities for a fraction of what they charged during the boom. Organize a local con. One of the successful FLGS guys I know used to run semi annual cons like this that made a good chunk of change from the registration fee.
IMO there is less and less of a NEED for brick and mortar gaming hobby stores themselves. But there is no less of a need for the things the gaming stores provided. There's just alot of alternative ways to get those things.
I can't imagine it ever being easier to take your pick from the part of the market you enjoy most and work out a way to at least get it to pay for itself.
On 4/25/2003 at 9:18am, wyrdlyng wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Andy Kitkowski wrote: Maybe a coffee house/game shop might work?
Well, the coffee house/bookstore model has worked well in general for Barnes & Noble stores down here in South Florida.
Tying into that, an old gaming group I used to play with would meet once a week at a more or less centrally located Barnes & Noble store to play cardgames (most often Shadowfist) at the internalized Starbucks section.
The people running the Starbucks didn't mind because we weren't rowdy and bought coffee and food there (and some were gamers as well) and the Barnes & Noble folks didn't mind because we bought books there as well (almost all of us were techies/programmers as well as avid readers so there was a large range of books for us to purchase).
The reason our de facto group head chose this was a) it was a nice social diversion outside of playing, b) this was how he screened new potential players ("Never play with someone you wouldn't want to hang out with"), c) people would see us playing and inquire, and d) we all liked books and coffee. :)
Personally, I can say that I and most of the players I know would be all over a coffee house/gaming place in an instant. Of course, we're almost all also firmly in the "I like Gaming but I don't interacting with Gamers" camp, so we might be different from the norm.
On 4/25/2003 at 3:27pm, Tundra wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Valamir wrote:
And I can't imagine there's ever been an easier time to be a hobby business in gaming. We're all familiar with the publisher side but even the retail end is opening up. While E-business is not the overthrow everything model it was once hyped to be, it certainly is valid. I know a lot of guys making a nice chunk of change in the secondary market. Guys I know who used to work all year for a big score at the Origins Auction (like antique dealers) are now buying and selling in volume over E-bay. They'll buy 3-4 incomplete game copies in various stages of wear. Kit bash them together to get 2 complete sets at decent quality and sell them for double or treble.
This is essentially commodities selling. It does little to nothing for increasing awareness of the culture of gaming or increasing the gaming population. This, imho, is the greatest problem in the marketplace. Wouldbe gamers are hijacked by other industries who are more aggressive than the game industry (most game companies and stores rely on the "If I build it, they will come" level of outreach).
Worse yet is the Games Workshop model (also adopted by WotC) of not trying to retain customers over the long haul. GW's research tells them that each Warhammer player is worth $500 for three years, so they don't attempt to keep players longer, always aiming for new gamers. Yet noone yet has found a way to target those 4th year people who stop sinking pounds into lead and instead focus on pixels.
So we have two approaches...the large companies grab new meat and spit it out. Other companies deal with the same people day by day until their piece of the pie is too small to avoid starvation.
ttfn - woody
On 4/25/2003 at 4:08pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Tundra wrote:
This is essentially commodities selling. It does little to nothing for increasing awareness of the culture of gaming or increasing the gaming population. This, imho, is the greatest problem in the marketplace. Wouldbe gamers are hijacked by other industries who are more aggressive than the game industry (most game companies and stores rely on the "If I build it, they will come" level of outreach).
Seems to me you have that backwards.
"most game companies and stores rely on the "If I build it, they will come" level of outreach" THIS would seem to be the actual problem in the marketplace. I don't particularly see the logic that says aggressive marketers are bad because they are causing difficulty for passive marketers.
Plus the secondary market is hardly damaging the majority of game stores. By far the majority of product that is being bought and sold by these people is out of print older stuff, and it DOES increase the exposure of those products to gamers who wouldn't have access to them otherwise (particularly older SPI and AH titles). Often for many of these products there is no other way to get them.
Further the existance of a vibrant secondary market in miniatures is a huge benefit to those gamers who DO intend to play Warhammer and the like for the long haul. They don't have to put up with GWs scalping policies and can outfit their games with discontinued older minis available dirt cheap (and often painted) when they're dumped by the transitory gamers.
I know of at least one FLGS owner who closed up his brick and mortar shop and now operates exclusively as a e-tailer offering both new and used games.
Could you clarify where you see this as being damaging to the hobby?
On 4/27/2003 at 11:07pm, Michael Hopcroft wrote:
How do you buy games?
We're all seasoned gamers here. perhaps asking how you buy games (ir if you buy games) might be instructive on the e-publishing/FLGS question.
Since there is probably going to be a delay of at least a term before I start school (not my fault really -- my doctor won't write a letter for the financial aid people for fear of unintended consequences, which furstrates me to the ends of the earth), I figured gathering some ideas would be a good idea.
I guess what I'm wondering about it whether a company like RPGHost will eveolve into the equivalent of a FLGS for e-publishers. It's certainly become almost a business neccessity to sell through them, s they clearly have both the best storefornt and most efficient payment scheme in the current market. The question is whether I can find some way to make a place for myself in this market as a publisher and a businessman, and figuring out how people buy and why they buy the way they do would help my thought processes no end.
Permit me to pick your brain. I promise you'll get a good one. 8^)
On 4/28/2003 at 3:00pm, Tundra wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Valamir wrote: Seems to me you have that backwards.
"most game companies and stores rely on the "If I build it, they will come" level of outreach" THIS would seem to be the actual problem in the marketplace. I don't particularly see the logic that says aggressive marketers are bad because they are causing difficulty for passive marketers.
The key phrase, which you excluded, states that the agressive marketers are in other industries, and they are keeping the population focused on their products which leaves less for our industry. Stores who play the passive game, as most of them do, are just going to die.
Valamir wrote: I know of at least one FLGS owner who closed up his brick and mortar shop and now operates exclusively as a e-tailer offering both new and used games.
Could you clarify where you see this as being damaging to the hobby?
I know of many. The problem with e-retail is it is exceedingly passive from the most important part of grassroots marketing; creating awareness of new products outside the mainstream.
When RoS was picked up by stores, people weren't even aware that Jake existed. They saw the cover on store shelves, they picked up the book and glanced through, they discussed it with some other people in the store. This doesn't happen online.
Gamers are, truthfully, extremely cheap by nature. They buy online both for convnience and for the cheapest game product. Since an online store doesn't have the community obligations (and costs involved), they are skimming sales from real stores without any potential market growth. Online stores make real stores less profitable, and has put real stores out of business (not dissimilar to the store you know who went e-retail only).
TSO only sells to stores who have consumer accessible store fronts. I won't support the online model for stores until I leave the industry. Then, I won't care if everyone dies ;-)
ttfn - woody
On 4/28/2003 at 4:05pm, HinterWelt wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Woody-
I just wanted to pipe in and emphasize something you touched on in terms of online tore fronts as opposed to B&M. That is, the B&M stores are critical to introduction of new product. They are a vital part of the sense of community that many games have. It is a place to meet, ask questions, get answers, see actual play and be involved in demos. I imagine I will get flamed for such talk here but a great many gamers still buy based on walking into their local game store, picking up the book and thumbing through it. That is not to say that there are no other ways to sell but it works. Plain and simple.
I do not believe that the B&M store will disappear but it will evolve. We saw it when we were retailers and you hear of it today. The swing today is from novelty shop to entertainment provider (tournaments for a fee) with a retailer section.
Just my thoughts,
Bill
On 4/28/2003 at 4:19pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Hello,
I should like to avoid the repetition of certain cliches in this thread:
1. The notion that the physical retail store is the heart and sustenance of the hobby's existence. Despite individual, isolated instances for which this has been the case, I would argue the reverse if we think more generally. I think most retail game-stores have consistently screwed both themselves and role-playing as a hobby activity, throughout the past three decades.
2. The notions (a) that on-line sales are the same thing as discounting, and (b) on-line publisher sales are the same thing as on-line retailer sales. Many people confound these things continually.
Also, for those who haven't seen them, you may find the following threads interesting:
In Publishing:
Mainstream: a revision
Production value
Promotion
Active vs. passive entertainment
The Store
What would make a non-role-player buy your game?
The game that would sell to non-role-players
The importance of play
Accessible? To whom?
In Actual Play
Actual play in the stores
Mainstream media
Best,
Ron
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 4223
Topic 4230
Topic 4260
Topic 4259
Topic 4254
Topic 4261
Topic 4267
Topic 4313
Topic 4339
Topic 4253
Topic 4316
On 4/28/2003 at 4:32pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Tundra wrote:
The key phrase, which you excluded, states that the agressive marketers are in other industries, and they are keeping the population focused on their products which leaves less for our industry. Stores who play the passive game, as most of them do, are just going to die.
Again, I don't see the problem. If other industries...movies, console and PC games, etc are aggressively pursueing the gamer demographic (whatever that is) and convincing them to spend money on other forms of entertainment...how is this their fault?
Again, the problem is not that other industries are "hijaaking" gamers but that the gaming industry is too passive.
Sorry, but when you say "Stores who play the passive game, as most of them do, are just going to die." I say, "and wouldn't that be their fault, for being passive".
I know of many. The problem with e-retail is it is exceedingly passive from the most important part of grassroots marketing; creating awareness of new products outside the mainstream.
But do game stores really do a good job of this either? I walk into a game store I used to see wall o'Pinnacle, Wall o'AEG, and wall o'WhiteWolf, and Display Case o'Magic & Pokemon. Now I walk into a game store and I see Wall o'd20, Wall o'Whitewolf, Discount Wall o'Pinnacle and AEG, and Display Case o' YuGiOh. I don't see the non-big-name games being pushed in any sort of grassroots way.
Maybe I haven't seen enough game stores, but most of the ones I've been to or heard about may carry a copy or two of "other stuff" but few bother to reorder them in any quantity. Even fewer take an active roll in actually trying to promote those games and get their customers to buy and play them. Sure they may put a copy on the shelf, but are they really pushing them? If not, than how is that better than e-tailers? Note: I know a few who are and do, yes. But in the main? Not in my experience.
And far more important than either of these is trying to get NON gamers to start in the hobby...and the number of game stores that actually go out of their way to do that is very small. I'd say the local Borders does a better job of appealing to non gamers than any of the game stores I know of. Why? Simply by way of offering game books in a widely trafficked retail location that isn't associated with the normal hobby turn-offs.
When RoS was picked up by stores, people weren't even aware that Jake existed. They saw the cover on store shelves, they picked up the book and glanced through, they discussed it with some other people in the store. This doesn't happen online.
I couldn't disagree more with this last sentence. I am hardly unique in doing ALL of my game shopping online. A good website with art, detailed descriptions of play, downloadable chapter samples, and other assorted bells and whistles will sell a book better than a copy sitting on a shelf in a game store. RPG discussion forums continue to proliferate, and through them word of mouth spreads across continents, not just across a few dozen local store customers.
Now at the moment, I'd agree that only a fraction of the gaming populace is active on line and is willing to browse online, but I'd say that fraction is an increasing one. It wasn't that long ago that venues like the Origins Auction was the best place to find OOP older titles and gaming collectables...now it is a ghost of its former self and even the old grognards are active E-bay users. The same will happen in RPGs. Online shopping will never replace brick and mortar shopping the way the hype used to suggest. But it is a viable and growing distribution channel. Wal Mart doesn't ignore it. Borders doesn't ignore it. QVC doesn't ignore it. They use it as a great augmenter of their traditional business, and acknowledge the need to compete with the lower cost e-only retailers.
Retail gamestores that offer a simultaneous on-line shop is a great thing. They're not being hurt by online shopping, they're participating and benefiting from it. The ones being hurt are the ones that refuse to do it...or lack the drive to make it work.
Gamers are, truthfully, extremely cheap by nature.
Not true. The supposed "gamer demographic" of starving college student, yes. But the hordes of Warhammer players who drop 100s of mom and dad's dollars on figs? The well heeled old grognards who subscribe to gaming company programs where they buy EVERY SINGLE $50-$100+ wargaming title the company produces? Guys like me who had to make my own games and scenarios as a child cuz I couldn't afford to buy them, who now sink a noticeable fraction of my disposable income into the hobby?
No. If RPG gamers are cheap...its because RPGs have been targeting the wrong customers. IMO.
They buy online both for convnience and for the cheapest game product. Since an online store doesn't have the community obligations (and costs involved), they are skimming sales from real stores without any potential market growth. Online stores make real stores less profitable, and has put real stores out of business (not dissimilar to the store you know who went e-retail only).
Sorry, I've heard that story before at the dawn of the e-tailing boom. I don't buy it at all. E-tail is just another distribution channel...just like catalog shopping, TV shopping channels. or Super Stores. Its no better, worse, or more damaging than any other method of getting product into the hands of customers. Competetive businesses adapt, non competetive business don't.
No "real store" has ever gone out of business *because* of e-tailing. Ever. They went out of business because they had an unsustainable business model that collapsed. The e-tailer was just the catalyst to finish a process that was already underway. If it wasn't the e-tailer that had done it, it would have been the WOTC Store opening down the block, or the expanded game selection at the local Borders, or a real estate boom that raised the rent on their store... In other words, a poorly run business is a poorly run business, regardless of what the actual "final straw" was that broke them.
But this doesn't answer my question. I asked how is it damaging to the hobby. You answered how you think its damaging to the retail store. That seems to have a built in assumption that Retail Store = Hobby...or at least their fates are inseperably tied. I don't buy that at all.
This hobby requires only three things. Publishers to manufacture games, customers to buy them, and a means of getting the product to those customers. Publishers have, are, and will continue to come and go. Customers have, are, and will continue to come and go. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the distribution channel must be carved in stone. Distribution methods can come and go also, and the hobby will live on.
But more than just living on...why has the hobby stagnated?
I don't mean creatively stagnated...I mean financially. The hobby has existed at roughly the same size it is today for decades. Other hobbies have boomed. Why not this one?
IMO Gaming will never grow and prosper as long as its considered by the mainstream public to be a hobby for geeks. And the vast majority of game stores I've seen do more to promote that image than break it (not all...most).
PC gaming gets hip celebrities to attend E3 and other industry functions. We get wookies and fat men dressed like Sailor Moon. There are specials on TV showing Boy Band heart throbs playing the X-Box. Hell, even Magic has had mainstream exposure with televised tournaments on ESPN. Computer gaming used to be a hobby for geeks right along side RPGs. Now it is slick and packaged and visible to the mainstream. You can see the results of this in the explosion of profitability in the electronic gaming industry. Where is roleplaying?
The original topic to this thread was is the FLGS being rendered obsolete?
IMO there are two types of FLGS. The type that are bright, open, professional and can proudly be located in the midst of middle america strip malls, and upscale shopping centers. Places that look and function like Hobby Town USA in terms of layout and accessibility to the general public. Are those obsolete? No. Those are the future of the hobby along with game sections in WalMarts and Borders, and large online suppliers like Amazon and other e-tailers. Those stand a better chance of getting a non gamer who just happens to be browsing around to take a look, than any number of gaming tables in some hole in the wall dive ever has.
But look at what games are located in those stores...Hobby Town USA has a TON of warhammer, and a better selection of German Imports than many actual GameStores do. Roleplaying? Limited. Borders...White Wolf and a smattering of other titles. Why? Because IMO RPG companies are still focused on getting RPG titles into "gaming stores", only the big name companies are trying to get product placed in more mainstream (i.e. general public mainstream) venues. Bah...if that doesn't change RPGs will lose to minis and clix guarenteed.
The other type of game store...the ones populated by geeks and attractive only to fellow geeks. Yeah, those are obsolete. I owe nothing to help support them because they do nothing to support the hobby. They support the small little clique of regular customers they have, and that's fine. If they can continue to operate and cater to those customers as they have in the past more power to them. But they DON'T bring new people into the hobby, they DON'T do a better job pushing non-big-name RPG titles than other venues, and they DON'T represent the future of gaming. IMO.
Edited: to tone down the inadvertant negative tone that crept in while writing.
On 4/28/2003 at 6:17pm, HinterWelt wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Ron-
Sorry, I just thought my comments were topical. Obviously, certain laws of nature have been defined here that I was unaware of. I disagree with some of the opinions of this forum based on my real life experience. I am not trying to claim my experience as the sum of the universe just offering it as a part of the total. I will refrain from doing so in the future.
For my part, I apologize if I strayed.
Bill
HinterWelt Enterprises
The Next Level in RPGs
William E. Corrie III
www.hinterwelt.com
http://www.hinterwelt.com/chargen/
On 4/28/2003 at 6:32pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Hi Bill,
No apologies necessary. Moderation at the Forge works differently from a lot of places and it's very straightforward. In this case, my post was addressed to everyone, and that means that everyone (you, everyone, etc) should merely extract from it anything they think applies, and take it from there.
If your post was any sort of flagrant problem, I'd have singled it out (I'm like that), so you have nothing to worry about, or as I say, to apologize for. Your perspective is welcome.
Best,
Ron
On 4/28/2003 at 6:39pm, Tundra wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
My last thoughts before I leave the thread (I simply don't have the time, and frankly, I don't get paid to share my info) ;-) so Ron doesn't uninvite me to visit him and Cecelia....
We definately come from different POVs, Ralph. I don't know if it's intended or not, but you seem to have some hostility towards b&ms, and there's nothing I can do with that.
Online stores do *not*, repeat *not* noticably increase the market. Few non-gamers are influenced by online stores unless they are following a licensed product trail.
You are correct that the old FLGS is obsolete and that (as Bill pointed out) the successful stores have become entertainment locations. This includes online as well as offline support. If they are going to increase their market share, as well as the number of gamers, they have to. Most won't, and Darwinism wins again.
Tundra still will not sell to online retailers. B&m stores that have online sales are not online retailers, they simply have several sales outlets. What we avoid are online *only* retailers.
So, if you have a FLGS, talk to them about what works and what doesn't. If you have an interest, try to find ways to help energize them for the work ahead, give them ideas and inspiration. If it works, then you should try politics ;-)
ttfn - woody
On 4/28/2003 at 6:58pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Tundra wrote: We definately come from different POVs, Ralph. I don't know if it's intended or not, but you seem to have some hostility towards b&ms, and there's nothing I can do with that.
Not hostility towards retailers, no. Hostility perhaps (or more likely strident disagreement) with the idea that B&Ms are the heart and soul of the hobby, without them the hobby will collapse (or at least suffer profoundly) and that therefor we should make a special effort to keep B&M's viable.
That I definitely have a problem with, because I think it is not only completely not true, but also works against moving the hobby to a more mainstream audience.
Online stores do *not*, repeat *not* noticably increase the market. Few non-gamers are influenced by online stores unless they are following a licensed product trail.
I agree. And if you substituted "B&M game stores" for Online stores in the above, it would be equally true. B&M game stores do not noticeably increase the market. Many of the stores I would argue actively decrease the market simply by being the sorts of place no non gamer would ever go. Similarly few (not none...few) non-gamers are influenced by a B&M game store unless they are being invited by a gamer friend who's trying to introduce them to the hobby.
You are correct that the old FLGS is obsolete and that (as Bill pointed out) the successful stores have become entertainment locations. This includes online as well as offline support. If they are going to increase their market share, as well as the number of gamers, they have to. Most won't, and Darwinism wins again.
We are certainly in agreement on this. I would argue, however, that the "successful stores" as you characterize them by way of them being successful and offering something that e-only retailers don't are in no danger and are in no way damaged by e retailers. If they are, then I submit they are not truly successful, because they haven't found a way to compete effectively against this channel.
Tundra still will not sell to online retailers. B&m stores that have online sales are not online retailers, they simply have several sales outlets. What we avoid are online *only* retailers.
That is, of course, completely your perogative. Yours and your clients willingness to have this distribution channel denied to them.
This stance would make more sense to me if it were targeted specifically against deep discounters and e-tailers engageing in "damaging" practices rather than all online retailers period (I doubt we'd get very far discussing the definition of a damaging practice)
So, if you have a FLGS, talk to them about what works and what doesn't. If you have an interest, try to find ways to help energize them for the work ahead, give them ideas and inspiration. If it works, then you should try politics ;-)
Heh :-)
On 5/10/2003 at 5:23am, Ryan Wynne wrote:
Re: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Michael Hopcroft wrote: I was thinking of starting a game store when i graduated from business school, but now I'm starting to wonder whether the FLGS we grew up with has been rendered obsolete. Columbia Games' recent announcement that they are going to direct sales only indicates some companies seem to think so. My own experience with the retail chain has been anything but encouraging as a publisher as well.
Well I can understand why they would go this route. The distributors and the game stores take a large chunk out of the money again. I don't have the numbers but I bet the one (if not both) the disbutors and game stores may get a bigger cut of the pie then the game store that sells the game (and had nothing to do with the creation). I am not against FLGS's but that is just my POV on the subject and can understand why they would go this route.
If they go this route they make more money and can pay their writers better (lord knows the pay for designing rpgs cant get much worse).
On 5/10/2003 at 5:42am, Ryan Wynne wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
Ron Edwards wrote: Hello,
I should like to avoid the repetition of certain cliches in this thread:
1. The notion that the physical retail store is the heart and sustenance of the hobby's existence. Despite individual, isolated instances for which this has been the case, I would argue the reverse if we think more generally. I think most retail game-stores have consistently screwed both themselves and role-playing as a hobby activity, throughout the past three decades.
Best,
Ron
I agree. I played rpgs and found people to game with when I started with rpgs and never stepped foot in a FLGS. I actually ordered my first rpg (Battletech Boxed set 2nd Edition 1988) from a Waldenbooks.
It was years before I stepped foot into a FLGS and was able to play games, buy games and find players.
On 5/10/2003 at 6:53am, Emmett wrote:
RE: Is the FLGS obsolete?
I have sadly seen nearly all the good B&Ms except one or two close up in myneck of the woods. It makes me very very sad. . .
On 5/12/2003 at 7:55pm, b_bankhead wrote:
The real question....
As I look at what's going on the shops, I have come to believe while the FLGS will be around for a good while, the question is will there be rpgs there?
The gaming marketplace has shown that it can spawn games whose recruitment model allows them to surpass the populaion and sales level rp rpg's very quickly. Already we have seen Warhammer,collectible miniatures and cards. Who can doubt designers will continue to produce new game categories. If these categories proliferate the competition for existing store space will grow more acute.
The real worry for those interested in preserving the instore rpg culture is that more and more games shops will actually start to analyse the opportunity cost of spending money to put a roof over the saturday night game groups whose spending rate is so relatively low. There is scarcely a game shop in existence that is truly dependent on rpgs. Many could survive without them, particularly if the shelf space was taken up by a more profitable new category.
At least one post has mentioned a game shop that has no rpg gaming. In my area at least two of the best known game shops have achieved that state essentially defacto if not by fiat as the owners make no efforts to promote even their shrinking rpg invnetory. I believe this trend may continue as rpgs come to be viewed as a 'loser' category.