I'm running a simple playtest session forum-based RPG for a 'clan' of online gamers, all of whom enjoy writing, etc. I have about 4 or so - they each have their own entire threads of nothing but their own original (though derivitive) fantasy stories, and each put a LOT into them, and also they each do normal freeform role-playing on their own in the forums I setup, so there's lots of fireballs killing 40 orcs at once and staves of power deflecting other players' attacks, etc - very munchkin - or so I thought.

Anyway, I started a forum based session, explaining I would be the narrator, if anyone was interested, and would be using a VERY loose approximation of a game system (sort of my best guess at the general idea of the Pool), but they wouldnt need to know any of the mechanics, I would take care of stats, etc. so they could just enjoy writing and role-playing. Fine so far. I then asked them to write a brief description of their characters, 200 words or less, hitting high points they consider important, positively or negatively, and to their credit, most even gave themselves some minor flaws, of their own volition, even though none of them have actually PLAYED a normal role-playing game before.

Here is my problem - and I guess I'm not really asking for advice, but more what similiar things have happened to you, and what you wound up doing... I told them this would be a contemporary real-world based playtest game, with normal technology, etc. I explained to them this was REAL world-based, *I* would be the narrator, they were free to elaborate on things or their own stories or *minor* actions or conversations, etc, but that I would help 'direct' the game and they could think of themselves as movie characters if that helped - no invincibility, no lasers, no heat beams, no magic spells, etc - I urged reason and reality, and gave them the setting - a scenic little lodge up in the mountains (nation non-specific), where they were all VACATIONING - they could choose to know each other or not. So I finally start to get the characters roll in...

One more or less unspectacular character who is moderately skilled with a bow and staff and who has dubious luck - his description was basically just character development, rather than actual skills, so there, I was pleased.

The next was a little more trait-centered and slightly out of whack, as this guy put himself forward as having a horse (which I hadn't anticipated, but which made sense in the setting and could be interesting, so I okayed it), and also a staff (he's a big Gandalf fan) and an odd 'healing ability', though he didn't elaborate on it. Otherwise again, unremarkable, no super strength or speed, etc.

Another one was a farmer, fairly straightforward, pickup truck, etc. Ok. Basically by this time I was wishing for MORE 'heroic' characters.

Lastly, and I knew it was bound to happen, I got the Munchkin Combat Monster From Hell. Even though I very specifically explained the 200 word 'story description' for the characters, I instead got what look like rpg or console game stats like:

Name: Kahless (*groan, named after a Klingon, egad*)
Occupation: Navy SEAL
Armament: 25 grenades, fast attack vehicle (with cargo bay), mortar cannon, HEAT rounds, yadda yadda assault rifle, combat knife, C-4...

Armor: Heavy Duty Full combat Kevlar battle armor, shield and helmet...

And so forth. Its like the whole 'VACATION' aspect just went right over his head. Although I didnt want to do any sort of player-to-player interaction in the forums, to help keep the game running 'in play mode', I called him on the ridiculousness of driving around on the streets in a military combat vehicle loaded with full combat ready weapons and explosives and armor ... for VACATION... he genuinely and without hesitation answered 'well of COURSE I take all these things with me, vacation or anywhere else - I'm a SEAL!'.

I almost poked my own eyes out. Since then, we've agreed to disagree on some things and he's relented *somewhat*, and I've given somewhat, letting him have some things, meanwhile developing a sub-branch which inhibits combustion, making firearms, some electricity, vehicles, etc. useless. Naturally this has caused a serious gripe from him, as its pretty obvious he's relying specifically on his hi-tech weaponry and not his own ability, and perhaps its either obvious, or his suspicious mind makes it seem that way, that his technological edge is being taken from him to keep him from 'ruining' the game. He has, at every turn, attempted to 'outtrivia' me so he would still be an unstoppable badass, noting his ammunition was sealed casing something or other, which shouldn't be affected by this weird atmospheric inhibitor, then noted that his backup rifle was some sort of weird air rifle thing that shoots the super-lethal hydrogen dioxin darts, standard issue Navy SEAL stuff, or so he says.

Well, looking in Google for that phrase, there are NO exact matches, though enough related hits to know he knows *something* about what he's talking about - and that possibly he has more in-depth knowledge on some of these things than Google itself does. My problem is, he either IS a SEAL (which I don't think he is, since most of the people in this game are 18 or younger) or is incredibly obsessed with that; either way, its hard to argue against a lot of his stuff (though the poison dart thing I question, as well as running around on civilian roads with a FAV and mortars and grenades) because he knows far more about it than I do about it, and I don't WANT to have to 'counter' his admittedly very creative attempts at overcoming his situation - I don't want it to be about HIM or ME; to do much more will make it really seem like I'm picking on him, and I don't want it to be a contest - but even the other players are exasperated at his over-the-top ideas, which they know detract from the actual game.

So there is basically a 'monster in the woods' - naturally, Kahless wants to shoot it and throw grenades at it or run it down, the other players wander around and try to spot the thing and discuss what to do.

The inhibitor thing kicks in and combustion doesn't work. He wants to use his sealed ammunition and/or air rifle with poison darts. Quandry - I can allow both to work, but I can't let him kill the thing or thats the end of the game and he singlehandedly wins it - if I say even the sealed case ammo sputters, or the creature takes little damage, and the air rifle doesnt' work or the poison doesn't do anything, he'll cry fowl because I thought his character was 'too good'. For a time he seemed to mellow and accept some limiting on his armaments, then seems to have switched back and now, fearing his ranged weapons and explosives are useless, his most dominant, primal advice and wish is for '"everyone to execute a tactical withdrawl out of this non-combustion area and bombar the thing from afar, since we're powerless as it is".

I won't just 'kick' him for being moderately uncooperative, as he IS posting and writing, coming up with some good ideas, plus there are only like 6 people in our group total and only about half of them, including him, are playing, and we're all part of the 'clan' group, so it would be very uncomfortable to ban him from posting in that part of our forums.

I just don't know how you can get THROUGH to people like this. I KNOW he has watched horror movies, with plenty of people wearing nothing but a nightshirt and carrying a flashlight, fight off the ancient undying evil, and yet, if his fully automatic dragonbreath rounds are duds, he basically throws up his hands and declares the whole thing a loss. I do NOT know how to proceed with the rest of the game, which the *other* players are eager to participate in, without either necessarily having him killed (since he's likely to do something suicidal and rely on an advantage he doesn't actually have and there won't be any good reason NOT to kill him), or he will simply quit from boredom or feeling singled out unjustifiably. I don't know the guy, really at all, except for a few posts, but I want him to be able to play and have fun and post - but my idea of the narrated game and his want for the military badass are SOOOOOO different - can this game be salvaged?

Dr. Velocity wrote: I don't know the guy, really at all, except for a few posts, but I want him to be able to play and have fun and post - but my idea of the narrated game and his want for the military badass are SOOOOOO different - can this game be salvaged?

Dr. V-

It seems like things have progressed to a point where the differences are irreconcilable. On the one hand is Seal-boy, on the other hand are the other characters and your setting.

The reason that mismatches like this are to be avoided is that the game becomes less fun.
Sounds to me like it's time for some natural consequences. Treat the player as you'd treat the others, let his mighty weaponry finish the adventure in 11 minutes, and then say, "OK. What did everyone think of that?"

Take this first adventure as a bit of an experiment (which it was, right?). Everyone's feeling out how it goes, getting a handle on things.
Either (1) Consensus will be that playing through things long-style would've been fun, and therefore the Seal short-circuited the game for folks, or else (2) Damn! Next time I want a Seal, too!

But both give a better grounding for the next run.
--And treating the whole thing as an experiment means that you don't have the answers, but are looking for some. Having gotten a few, the next time will be better. This might keep the other folks engaged more than "Uh, that sucked, but I know next time'll be better."

-Matt

One big question here is whether the other people feel, as you do, that the hyper-weaponed SEAL is annoying. Not whether he's possible -- whether he's annoying. Here's a test I can imagine; it needs a lot of refinement, but hey.

WARNING: This is something I, for one, would never encourage in any normal situation. You're going to roast the guy over a slow fire, and see whether he comes out better or out of the game, and also see whether the other players would prefer him alive or dead. I have a feeling that the answer is going to be "dead."

You might consider setting up by contacting the very best of the other players, the one who seems most mature and reflective. Tell him that the point of this exercise is to find out whether this guy is really a weenie or whether he can be molded into a fun player with the rest of the group. Explain that if the guy really tries, everyone should be encouraging, and you expect this player to help make it happen; that is, discourage other people from gloating when the guy's in a bind, and set the example by saying things like, "Um, couldn't you waste that guy by stealth and unarmed combat?" and so forth.

Okay, so the SEAL has about 1000 pounds of super-weapons, and a special tank thing to tote it around with. Now you've said that you're taking care of the stats, so let that include ammo. Encourage the guy to go do a recon -- no truck, no excess weight, just what he can reasonably carry -- and find out what's on the list. Cut it brutally until it's sane; say, an M16, a couple grenades, a few clips, a knife, a helmet, maybe the armor. While he's out reconning, you jump him with some kind of way-powerful ambush, give him a big fight scene all to himself (using up lots and lots of ammo), but have him captured. Yes, this is a railroad, but the point is that a capture will make the whole story go (remember the story? he doesn't either), because now everyone else has to do something about it. Allow him to signal his friends or leave notes or whatever, then drag him off to wherever they're putting him (say, a stockade, and then they plan to eat him). He now has 0 armor, 0 ammo, 0 weapons. Except, of course, he's a Navy SEAL, highly trained in unarmed combat, stealth, and so forth.

Now watch what happens as you try to get everyone else involved in trying to rescue the guy:

1. They say, "Hell with him, we don't care."
2. They say, "Cool, let's rescue him -- 'course, we don't have much in the way of weaponry, so we'll have to do it the cool way."

Meanwhile, what does the SEAL-guy say?

1. "Waah! You can't do that! That's cheating! No fair! Waaaah!"
2. "Hmm. Let's try it the old-fashioned way."

Now if you get double 2's, as it were, the game might run smoothly from there, because you've got action all around, and the SEAL is disarmed but involved. If you get double 1's, then what's happening is that this guy is a weenie, and nobody really likes him or his way of doing things, and the sooner he says, "Well, fine, I'm taking my guns and going home," the happier everyone else will be.

At this point I think it's a bit late for revisions of what you've already got. So take all his toys away and see if he can, like a serious commando, do well without them. That's the point about commandos, you see: sure, they know all about lots of great toys, but even without them you really don't want to mess with these people. If this guy doesn't get that (and I suspect he doesn't), then he's going to try to kill any game you run, because all he cares about is playing Doom in an RPG. If he wants to be serious about "I was trained as a commando, and admittedly I'm a gun crazy, but I can kill with both hands and feet while blindfolded and naked," then you've got a game.

If this actually works, and you get a reasonable game out of it, then at the end let the guy get back to his truck and really blow the crap out of something. It's a reward for good behavior.

Next time around, as several people have said, I think you need to hold the line on tone and so forth. Don't get into arguments about what's realistic; those never end, and tend to favor the munchkins because you know what? there are lots of crazies out there with lots and lots of guns. Instead try to explain that "it's not that kind of game," period. If it helps, try explaining in terms of power level: this is the bow-and-arrow, staff, and knives sort of power level, and if he wants a single hunting rifle with maybe a box of bullets, that's cool (maybe he wanted to go hunting on his vacation?), but what sort of maniac hunts with strong poisons (which make the meat inedible) and grenades (which make the meat scattered across the forest)? You want the guy to be reasonable, and if he really can't see that it is not reasonable, in a "just some guys hanging and drinking beer in their cabin in the woods" game, to have a Special Ops complete armament kit, then he's just not going to fit into this sort of game.

As a suggestion for this guy, if he's into SEALs: how about he used to be a SEAL, and now he's fifty, bald, and with a huge potbelly, and although he's got a pistol and a couple knives around, and takes them on hunting trips as a kind of nostalgia thing, actually he's kind of out of shape and isn't really sure he could hit the broad side of a barn; mostly what he does on these trips is drink beer, eat brats, and talk about how cool he used to be. Now, when the going suddenly gets rough again, how much of his old self is still there? See that's a story about a character; what he's got is a computer-game.

Sorry to ramble.

Another option is to let him kill the thing.

...and then make that not help matters at all.


There are various ways this could happen. Maybe the thing in the woods was actually trying to help people against something worse than it (mistaken identity). Maybe it becomes stronger after death. Maybe it has a mom.

At that point, the other players might point out that this guy hasn't helped matters with all his guns.

You might also want to consider having the military police show up.

Stuart

OK, Chris' idea is really, really bad. What you should do is just explain to the guy that he doesn't understand the sort of game you want to run, and that he won't be allowed to play. That it was your mistake to allow the character in the first place, and that you apollogize that it didn't work out. Don't make any further attempt to explain to the player anything unless you see some real honest sign that he really does want to understand.

OK, that all that good advice and party line stuff out of the way, I love Chris' idea. I can't advocate it, but, if this guy really is a weenie, and you don't mind messing with him to the point where he may hate you and never talk to you again, there are lot's of fun things you can do with him.

First, the whole "combustion" thing is obviously a croc on your part. That'll only antagonize him. As Chris points out there are much more reasonable ways to depower the character if that's what you're after. But here's how Bastard Mike would handle it (a close friend of Sergeant Mike).

OK, your up at the cabin, he's got his arsenal along, and they all know there's something out in the woods. Fine. So, get him as Chris said to go off after the thing. Prefereably alone. Have him find that, in fact, what he's up against is some manifestation of Yog-Sothoth. Spawn, in fact. Basically horriffic malleable creatures that you can define in any way you like. Throw one at him, and let him blow it all to smithereens. Then another, and another. Keep him busy blowing crap up to his heart's content. Somewhere in a cave, Yog-Sotthoth is just getting more pissed, and creating more young, and sending them after the guy.

Actually let him have as much fun blowing the crap out of stuff. When he runs out of ammunition, he'll want to go "Back to base" to get more. He might even want to bring a batallion of apache helicopters with him. Let him. His story, let him do what he want's. Doesn't matter anyhow.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, where all the other PCs are huddled in the cabin, a ghost comes to them. It's a small girl who tells a tale of how the village on the other side of the mountain was destroyed by these creatures, and how they were taken back to the cavern of Yog-Sothoth under the mountain, and consumed by it. Now their insane tourtured souls roam about trying to find someone to help them out of their predicament.

Some of these souls are also dangerous, and will threaten the characters. This is where you focus your attention. Make the Seal's encounters dull:
"You encounter another four armed three mouth beast that issues a foul stench. What do you do?" But make the ghost scenes truely horriffic. I'm sure if you think about it, that you'll find a way to really jaz up things. Do scenes out of The Sixth Sense. Make the ghosts simultaneously pathetic and in need of help, but also just too mangled to be dealt with easily. And some may "attack" characters unreasoningly, turing their hair white, threatening heart attacks, etc.

The Seal might try to return to help them out when he sees that this is where the real fun is; but his weaapons will be useless. They're ghosts, and can't be damaged by physical weapons, of course. He can't complain that this is a croc; it was in the "adventure" planned from the start (as far as he knows), and after all, he's doing great blowing up all sorts of opponents. Not like he has nothing to do, right? :-)

Anyhow, the solution to the problem is to banish Yog-Sothoth. For the unaware, Yog-Sothoth is a god of the Cthulhu mythos that represents a gate through dimensions. It can be blowed up where it stands, but it can't be destroyed. Blow it up here, and it'll still exist in a million other places (most not on Earth). If the SEAL encounters it, he'll try and blow it up. Let him. Then Yog-Sothoth just oozes out of the interstices of space again, and fills the cavern.

If you're feeling generous to the player who made the guy with the "healing" ability, allow him to use it to placate the spirits. But, frankly, I think he's not too good either. What I'd do is just make sure that no matter what, nobody got wounded through the whole story. So that the power is useless. That'll teach 'em for trying to outthink the GM. Next time he'll make the Farmer.

BTW, whatever you do reward the player who made the Farmer* by making him the hero, by figuring out the answer to the dillemma. Have the ghosts hint that it has something to do with seasons and the cycle of life or some such BS. Then the character makes a Farming die roll, and realizes that it has to do with sowing and reaping souls, and that this means that the way to remove Yog-Sothoth is to perform some ancient indian ritual that his grandpappy tought him (and which until this point he thought was just some useless bit of Native American trivia).

The characters all have to use their various abilities to make the ritual work. If you're feeling more kindly to the SEAL by this time, allow him to clear the road to the cavern for the players. If he's still an ass, then just have him come along and watch helplessly as the other PCs perform the ritual, and save the day. The Ghosts will all be released.

Now, one cool thing may happen along the way. The SEAL, may decide to try to close off the cavern. If he decides to do this make it obvious to the other players that if he does this that the ghosts will never be able to rest, and they'll never be able to get any skiing done on this vacation. :-) Basically, put them potentially against each other. Either the player will be forced to relent and allow the PCs to do their own thing, or this will put them at odds. If so, great. Communicate a really cool idea to one of the other players to kill the seal off. Tell them to back off, and tell the SEAL that he can do what he wants. Then tell them that they need one human sacrifice in order to make the ritual work (not true unless the SEAL player tries to mess up the plot). Then set things up so that they can poison him so that he doesn't even have a chance. Or some such devious, and inescapable method.

BTW, there is no saving roll against ingesting one ounce of pure strychnine, or whatever he's using on the creatures. After all, you haven't allowed to creatures to roll for one, right? :-) Anyhow, the point is, let them kill him, and kill him easily. Killing a person is really not difficult if you have the will to do it, and they don't suspect you. Not that I'm some expert or anything...

If he storms off before they have a chance to kill him, and seal the cavern, then Yog-Sothoth simply dissolves his way out with his acid blood. The sympathetic ghosts will tell the other PCs and be sure to leave the SEAL in the dark about it. At which point his defenses down, thinking he's won, he'll be all the more easy to kill.

Anyhow, another thing he might try is to get the cavern nuked or some other silliness. Well, it's about five hours to that nearest millitary base, you see, and by the time he gets there, and organizes the attack, the players will have wrapped up the whole caper and have gone home.

The overall point? Combat power is often meaningless. Make it so in this game. Allow the player to flail and flail, but the solution turns out to have nothing to do with his character's selected abilities. If he complains, then just say that you tried to warn him, but he wouldn't listen...

:-)

Mike

* This is your best player. reward him at every opportunity by making his character concept shine. He did exactly what you told him to as far as making his character. The fact that he wasn't "heroic" was your fault, I'm guessing. In fact, the whole thing is your fault for not communicating your expectations to start, and then allowing the misscommunication to become problematic by allowing the player to keep a character that you knew wouldn't work. Do better at the start next time. It's OK to say no.

Dr. Velocity wrote: ...noted that his backup rifle was some sort of weird air rifle thing that shoots the super-lethal hydrogen dioxin darts, standard issue Navy SEAL stuff, or so he says.

I don't know the guy, really at all, except for a few posts, but I want him to be able to play and have fun and post - but my idea of the narrated game and his want for the military badass are SOOOOOO different - can this game be salvaged?

Jack Spencer Jr wrote: Dioxin??? I recall that name from high school chemistry. It's one of the most toxic chemicals known to man.

Dr. Velocity wrote: meanwhile developing a sub-branch which inhibits combustion, making firearms, some electricity, vehicles, etc. useless.

Wow, thanks everyone - I'm honestly surprised to get so many replies, and people that read my whole post!

"The reason that mismatches like this are to be avoided is that the game becomes less fun.
Sounds to me like it's time for some natural consequences. Treat the player as you'd treat the others, let his mighty weaponry finish the adventure in 11 minutes, and then say, "OK. What did everyone think of that?"

Garbonzo is right, and I will probably end up doing this, as, you say, it IS a test session, which everyone knows. Its a learning experience for me as well and yes it WAS my fault for not laying down more firm rules and expectations - I was naively hoping, I guess, that everyone would sort of censor themselves to a reasonable extent, and they did - except him, but that doesn't make it his fault, I agree.

Chleric's idea of setting up a fight and having the SEAL captured is interesting, especially considering the other players' activities - however, I'm not sure, as this group plays online strategy games together as an 'alliance' and more or less can count on each other, officially or unofficially, and them leaving him to the elements might mess with that, so I will hold this as a possible result but not one I will put in without having exhausted other options.

Szilard's "out-munchkin-the-munchkin" is what I was leaning toward anyway and will probably use that anyway, to one extent or another, if nothing else then at least for a cheap thrill.

And I got a response from the legendary Mike Holmes! Its like my birthday or something! =) "Yog-Sothoth...." I was, in fact, working toward a Cthulhoid angle, with the inhibiting crap - its a slimy, fungoid mucus that is coming down with the rain as part of a larger plot of a summoning spell, making the area safe for the manifestation of a Horror of some kind - the idea for the inhibitor was planned out BEFORE the SEAL, to make the players think and face a gritty struggle and discover clues - it just so happened the SEAL came along and the 'magical anti-combustion rain' scrwed him royally - so you can see why its hard for me to have found a way out easily, it really WAS part of the original plot and wasn't directed against HIM specifically, but it sure as hell looks like it was.

The ghost idea and the cavern, I admit, I hadn't thought of, and really think there is something there to really put some action in the game; point taken and agreed with on the characters, especially the farmer - though I haven't seen the player post for a while so they might have gotten bored, so I'm not sure what I can do that way. I agree, again, about it being my fault for not communicating better to the players - I was, as mentioned, wanting to leave it as open-ended as possible for them to try whatever they wanted, without being pure munchkins - an Indiana Jones type has joined recently, which is cool, whip, pistol, hat - no problem; my intent was to let them use whatEVER they wanted, as I didn't really have a CONSCIOUS expectation of what they would or wouldn't take. I guess it was just blind trust, which, while good intent, isn't the way to run a game with even a smidgen of external non-player authority ... lesson learned, big time.

And finally Jack Spencer Jr. as well, and while your point about frustrating the player, as mentioned above, is agreed with, the anti-combustion thing was part of the basic story *before* the SEAL character was made - it just turned out this character was basically castrated by this (what was, to me) basically not that bad a disadvantage; it was not only some miscommunication on my part, power-gaming on his part, but also what appears to be an absolutely pure strain of bad luck, as a pre-existing element of the story almost cripples this walking arsenal character.

I dunno if any of you will be back to read this, but thanks for all the input, from all of you (including the ones I didnt respond to specifically), its all very helpful, and I'll post any big development in case anyone is interested. Thanks again everyone.

Dr. Velocity wrote: Wow, thanks everyone - I'm honestly surprised to get so many replies, and people that read my whole post!

<snip>

I dunno if any of you will be back to read this, but thanks for all the input, from all of you (including the ones I didnt respond to specifically), its all very helpful, and I'll post any big development in case anyone is interested.

Dr. Velocity wrote: the anti-combustion thing was part of the basic story *before* the SEAL character was made - it just turned out this character was basically castrated by this

I know this is off topic...but I just have to say it.

I knew an ex-SEAL. He was mid 20's. He was rather small and unthreatening. He worked with me at Kinkos. He drove a Honda civic. When he finished college he went on to be an engineer.

Never once did he shoot me with a poison dart, or bring a grenade launcher to work 'just in case'.

BTW - Mike, thank you for that little bit of joy.

Well, thats terrific guys. Small update since last night...

The farmer player retired, too much offline stuff to do to continue but said she was enjoying what she had played, then made her last post where the farmer ran off into the woods with a knife - which was, for me, actually perfect, since I was trying to figure out how to get someone to go out into the woods to find a mutilated cow corpse in a tree, for the players' benefit, and so thats taken care of. Yah hokey but it ties an earlier thing in.

The SEAL explained, in character, the anti-combustion field to everyone, then, again, cleverly came up with another good idea, to try to push his Fast Attack Vehicle (like an assault 4 wheeler with a cargo bay according to his description) to the only building which has light in it, which should be easy because this slimy mold is covering the ground. So he roleplays but... not if he doesn't have to, it looks like - but he seems to be out of his 'oh no we're doomed' phase so things are looking optimistic. They're all in the lone cabin with what amounts to elder signs, which prevents the creature from entering and the disruption field from working - the cabin was being used by a mythos investigator but of course no one knows that, so I've left in plenty of insurance in case something goes horribly wrong, and am about to add in the ghosts. Thanks again everyone, its looking fine so far. =)

Well nothing vital so far, really, but an interesting little turn of events.

One player went back into a lodge, upstairs, to get his bow, so I had the ghosts make their first appearance - he did well and backed toward the window, trying to keep them distracted and listening to them (I dunno why he was trying to leave).

Now, I wrote this out normally, and Sealboy Kahless had the next post and said 'I will distract the apparition!' (even though his character shouldn't have known anything about it), and he proceeds to fire three grenade rounds (he was near the circle of protection which nullified the no-combustion field) into the ground floor, then proceeded to hose the ground floor with his M-60 as well, heh. A distraction, he called it.

One of the other players posted next and was like "WTF?! Are you nuts?!" and his response was, 'well, its not like I used explosives' - I posted next clarifying that he had INDEED used explosives, quoting from his own post, then proceeded to cause the main NPC lodgekeeper lady to distract him and accidentally wipe out the abandoned farmer character and another NPC (who I had planned to keep in the game) with his 'distracting' heavy weapons fire which he chose to unleash before knowing where any of the other characters were. So the main NPC that distracted him, the friendly lodgekeeper lady, I've decided is probably temporarily insane from seeing her NPC friend mowed down in an accident in a mountain vacation spot during a freak storm - plus I sent the 'healing' PC, since he was on his horse, off at a jolt when the horse got scared, into the area to find the cow corpse in the woods, and a small occult ritual and a trail leading to the cave. We'll see if he follows it or tries to go back and heal the NPCs.

Amusingly, Kahless response to all this was a quick two parter - "Medic!" and "I need to check into the grenade manufacturer, those appeared to be defective".

Dr. Velocity wrote: Now, I wrote this out normally, and Sealboy Kahless had the next post and said 'I will distract the apparition!' (even though his character shouldn't have known anything about it), and he proceeds to fire three grenade rounds (he was near the circle of protection which nullified the no-combustion field) into the ground floor, then proceeded to hose the ground floor with his M-60 as well, heh. A distraction, he called it.

Yeah, like Chris said, the way to get this guy is not to antoagonize him at all. In fact you should reward him, but jut in lame ways. That is, reward everyone playing, but just make his reward so much less cool and interesting that he sees that his way isn't the only way to play.

That was what my post was about. Give him the benefit of the doubt. Always let him win as long as it's about something that doesn't matter. Only resstrict him from doing anything that's really relevant to the plot. :-)

Anyhow, what Chris said is true about the "No Myth" play. What he means is that you can make up anything you want. This should be really easy with PBeM play as they can't possibly tell when you're improvising. Thew only time that the twink will get suspicious is if things seem to show up out of nowhere to hose him.

Like I said, don't do that. Make him think he's playing well. Just have it be that all his good work is irrelevant to who looks like the hero at the end.

I'd like to say, again, and for the record, that this is all against common sense, and good judgement. Open communication is really the best answer.

But I'm realy having fun waiting to see what happens using the unserhanded method. It's like waiting for a car wreck at a nascar race. :-)

Mike

Hello,

I find this entire discussion horrifying. It seems very clear to me that one rather excellent, thoughtful role-player has already been driven away (cited "outside constraints" being the usual fog-screen), and that one extremely manipulative, butt-headed player is making the GM dance to his tune as he has no doubt done many times before.

This isn't a GNS issue. It's a Social Contract issue. I can't imagine why the SEAL-character player was permitted to participate in the first place, and it's painfully clear what the endgame and coda to this all-too-familiar situation is going to be.

Best,
Ron

I'm with Ron on this one. I'd say "I'm sorry, but what you're looking for in a game right now is way far removed from what I am. We'll talk about future opportunities; this one just isn't working at all. I'd like you to step down from this one." I wish that I'd started doing that earlier in my life, since in retrospect I wasted a lot of time and effort in many contexts trying to placate the one hard case who in the end wasn't going to cooperate anyway. Now my priority is the people who are making a real effort to work with me and each other, and I deal with fringes only insofar as I feel like it.

Look, Mike and I (I think) are totally in agreement that the correct answer here was never to have let this happen in the first place. Now that it has, what now?

I'm advocating finding out whether this SEAL-dude has potential, if challenged, to be a good player. If not, the hell with him. But I say make use of the opportunity to play tricks and learn something in the process. If it produces nothing, it produces nothing but a good learning experience for the GM. But bailing now produces nothing for nobody.

Is there a way to make this guy consider the rashness of his actions? Is there a way to make the other players join in on the effort?

Look, suppose we end up with a character whose problem is that he's a f---ing nutcase. Okay, so the other characters need to deal with this. Now if the players are all going with it, and good gaming is happening because we've transmuted "twink power-gamer" into "problem character for the party," sounds like a good thing to me.

I think, frankly, that there is too much talk around here about how to deal with great players and make wonderful games out of wonderfulness. That's overstated, but here you've got a desperate situation. Should the GM run away because it doesn't work? NO! The GM should try to make it all into a useful and enjoyable experience for all. If he can't, he can't. But he came in asking if he could, and I say yes. And, yes, it's going to take desperate measures. So what? What's the worst that can happen? Bad gaming, sucky time for everyone. Okay, he's got that, but people seem to be making it a little better than that. So why not push for all he can get out of it? If he gets one player who says, "Hey, that was a really cool way to deal with a really horrible situation, I like you and your gaming," then hasn't he "won"? And if the SEAL guy comes out saying, "You know what? Next time I'm playing a 50 year-old fat dude with a limp and a lot of memories," how is this not also a "win"?

Gaming isn't about perfection, or about greatness. It's about playing the hand you're dealt, and making the best of it. If that's great, great; if it's terrible, you try to make a decent game out of it.

I agree with Chleric. Dr. V should have made it clear what he wanted at the beginning, yes; but he didn't. Now he's IN THE GAME, with players, some of which presumably are enjoying themselves (including the SEAL guy, which is not unimportant). Bailing on the game, or kicking someone out of it, is the wuss out answer.

Some great (and less great but still viable) suggestions have been given in this thread, and I breathed a sigh of relief when Dr. V quoted them all in his response, because it meant he go the full benefit of all the advice everyone was posting. I hadn't even realized I was holding my breath, but as someone who has participated in such trainwreck PBP storytelling, it was really cathartic to see him take everything into consideration and decide what to DO rather than how to cop out. Especially since in the situation I was in, I copped out. Admittedly I wasn't the DM and was highly outnumbered by twinkies, but that's all beside the point.

NEXT TIME, Dr. V needs to set a better social contract *before* the game. THIS TIME, I think he's doing a splendid job with a simple concept that Freeform RPers have been using for ever:

ICA = ICC.

In character actions equal in character consequences. If you fire a rocket launcher into a cabin... everyone in the cabin dies, the cabin and everything in it is destroyed, there is a high likelihood of a serious forest fire, which could potentially grow to be as big a threat as the big baddie.

Of course in this case the grenades, which were OUTSIDE the COP when they struck, wouldn't have exploded. Too late for that now, although you might want to think about coming up with a reason why they worked.

To me, that's one of the fun parts about FFRP, "justification after the fact". Taking seemingly unrelated tidbits of actions and plot twists, and then weaving backwards (or forwards) to cohere them, presents an enjoyable mental and creative challenge for the storyteller, and can result in some pretty nifty ideas being worked out. Which is cool, because now the players' actions are unintentionally synergizing with the storyteller's creativity to generate surprises FOR THE STORYTELLER as well as the players. Which is, in my opinion, a lot of fun. I get a kick out of that kind of thing, maybe it's just me.

And remember, you're the GM, the storyteller, the guide, the loremaster- but you're a *player* too. Not a PC, but a player- in that your role includes reacting to the game just as the PCs must.

Dr. V, I think you're doing great, keep up the dispatches so we'll know how this experiment turns out... just don't end the game prematurely unless you absolutely MUST. Don't let anybody here, no matter who they are, tell you "the game can't go on".. the game MUST go on!

I object to "wuss out" and such. I don't know about others, but the folks I play and talk about gaming with generallly have very busy and often demanding lives. Suckitude can come on in waves, and none of us are getting any younger, and being a responsible worker, spouse, parent and so on takes a lot of energy. Gaming is supposed to be entertainment, unless someone's actually engaged in job-related stuff like playtesting a commercial design, and I don't see any duty at all to put up with unpleasant and unrewarding nuisances.

If the GM wants to put more effort into salvage, fine. But I think there's no duty to do so, and in my experience telling people that they ought to keep trying and trying to salvage things is a prescription for GM burnout a lot more often than it is for annoying players redeemed and happy play restored.

I'm not on the spot, and it's always hard to assess the tradeoffs from a distance. I just think that very often the right answer in terms of enhancing the fun of a recreational activity for most of the participants is to go ahead and bail on the source of trouble. When extra duties get piled on, the real point gets lost. This is not fundamentally a responsibility to society at large or a moral duty. It's a hobby, a pasttime. We work to make our rules and settings fun, we should work to make the process of play fun, too.

Different outlooks, eh? I think we all agree regarding the situation, more or less. The difference seems to be about "what we do." That's fair, don't you think?

Dr. V, Bruce is right - no one is on the spot for that but you and the other people in the game. One person has clearly voted with her feet already.

you've received some pretty good input, I think. If you look closely at the [Nev] and [Bruce & me] advice, you'll see one thing absolutely staring at you - it does depend on whether anyone is having fun besides Seal-boy, including yourself. If so, rockity-rock; if not, well ... I wouldn't stick around. But the decision is yours, not mine.

Best,
Ron

Once again, though it doesn't do any of you credit, I'm surprised to have this many responses again.

Bruce and Ron, I totally agree with you, and again I also will be the first to stay the game started going queer due to my neglect of putting forward a finite and strict social contract, but as I said, this is playtesting, I wanted to see *how* everyone would play, and how far it would go, if it would cause enough trouble that a forum-rpg wasnt doable. I feel a forum rpg IS doable, as long as, as mentioned, the social contract is there, probably (as much as I hate it), including simple stats and equipment choosing, so there will be no nebulous 'available stuff' for munchkins to abuse, and also just so everyone feels on a level playing field of being able to pick precisely what they have with them, and not feel shorted, etc.

But I have to go with the others on this and say that I do not feel that simply dumping the game, thus far, is the best choice, for myself or the players. If there is enough complaint or in-game griping or people quitting, etc, thats one thing, but so far, only the farmer character has quit, and she has been on the forums before and goes through long periods of non-posting anyway, so her case, while *possibly* a result of not liking the turn of events, can not with certainty be ascribed to that.

Now, if it was around a table with friends, yes, maybe, because we would be there for the express purpose and I'd go 'hey, this isn't working, lets try this direction', and everyone would roll up new chars. But this is a forum and these people have all adjusted their normal net time and routines to try to post in here at least once a day, and are valiantly playing and developing characters and trying to move the game along, even the SEAL, intuiting clever ideas to overcome obstacles, pre-set and player-created, and I've been trying to keep it interesting and fair.

For example, the Indiana Jones type that showed up grabbed the NPC lodgekeeper after SHE grabbed the SEAL, berated her with a 'look what you've done!' exclamation. I honestly didnt expect that, since he was miffed at the SEAL too, but he's working on being in character and keeping the group cohesive, which is a good sign. The SEAL seemed a bit upset, either at his poor choice of distraction, or maybe just being called on it to face the consequences, so there is thought behind ALL of the actions; it just seems to be taking a while for different people. My plan is to throw the ghosts in some more, with more obvious signs directing everyone to the cave, where the monster is doing its monsterly thing with the bones or whatever, and the firefight commences, they find the NPC occultist/monster-hunter and maybe figure out how to banish the thing, etc. So they're right there on the brink, I just need to get them over this hump they're at right now, where they know the cabin is safe, and know theres symbols and weird crap all over it, and the occupant is gone but was reading weird books... they just don't seem to be getting a concensus of 'hey, lets go find him'.

Well, I can speak to the issue of playtesting.

In every playtest I've ever run, there's been at least one person or group I've had to say, "Sorry, but what you keep demanding is so at odds with the fundamentals of what we're doing that it just doesn't matter at all. Thank you for your time and effort, but you don't need to make any more reports. We can't use this input, because we're not going to re-design the game from the ground up." I've also had to say, "I see you understand what we're trying to do, but addressing the concerns you raise at the level you'd like would take space that we really prefer to use for something else. We can put in brief warnings but not the extensive details you're looking for." And like that for various other cases.

Sometimes the answer from playtest is "This isn't your game."

Hey, yeah... I apologize for not making that totally clear, although I do think I hinted at it. I should have said The Game Must Go On... IF Most of the Players (including the GM) Are Having Fun (more than they're having problems).

Alright, that's a really clumsy way of putting it, but yeah, the fun is obviously a major issue, and if I made it seem like continuing the game AT ALL COSTS was more important than continuing the game IF IT'S FUN, then that was my mistake.

Sowwy ^_^ My bad!

"Like I said, they will hold in orbit away from the area. If we need to retreat, we will have to clear out away from this crap. The fighters can drop bombs from above the rain deck. 10 minutes until the air arives. "

Ah I love that SEAL. =/

Anyway, I'm *trying* to lead the 'healer' off after the little ghost girl, so he can find the save, disrupt the gate ritual, whatever.

Currently the Navy SEAL, since I let the radios work in the cabin and he heard that local law enforcement choppers are coming, posted that he was going to call in an air strike. *sigh* I dunno WHAT this guy does, he knows a LOT about military stuff but now his cargo hold is full of C4, and he apparently has the authority to call in airstrikes on a populated domestic civilian area with no other clearance. Instead of finagling out of that in the game, I posted OOC and flatly told him that was rejected. I hated to do it but there just doesn't seem to be any way to get through to him but to announce that I'm disallowing some of his ridiculously powerful actions; we may have him quit yet, though I HOPE he kinda 'gets it' and can get into the flow of the game.

I think he just has NOT done anything BUT freeform roleplaying and so he's lost, I don't think he understood when I posted for the signup about using a 'role-playing SYSTEM'. But as has been discussed, its playtesting, plus he started his own rpg thread so I'll have to check it out and see how that goes.

But in the game, all thats really left is letting him hose the monsters, and maybe get the other players to find the cave, etc. Its going ok and I've called for some random number choosing for my version of the 'sanity roll', so we'll see how THAT goes too. Heh. Thank again for all your comments.

Hello, I know some of you probably don't even remember, but I appreciated the help and advice so much, I wanted to have some closure with this whole munchkin-forum-rpg thing, so here is how it went down.

A few days after my last post here, the SEAL attempted his most spectacular trick yet, which I might have mentioned already - he attempted to call in a full airstrike, using whatever fictitious ranking he was under the impression he possessed, using obscure words like "ETA, radius effect zone, and ... rain deck". I bluntly said NO. Well a day later, he finally caught me on AIM, and I later found had also posted, to the effect of the expected "I'm really getting pissed off - everything I have, you're trying to neutralize". Prepared for this, mostly due to the feedback here, I explained what I did here, and went with his NAVY Seal idea and Star Trek, since he's quite a Trekkie, and gave lost of compare and constrasts about PLANNING, tactics, improvisation, overcoming unexpected obstacles, debating with him over weapons and explosive transportation and licensing laws, etc.

After about 45 minutes of admittedly very uneasy bantering and one trying to make a point to the other about this or that, we somehow met on a mid-level and most of the tension sort of dissolved, and he confided in me, "you know, the sealed ammo don't work - I bought some and damned if every single one wasn't a dud" - we went on to tell me about checking it, and where he got it from, and all this and how even if moisture HAD gotten in it, it STILL wouldn't account for it simply going *pffft*, even though he'd gotten this same ammo before from this same place and had no problem - he had absolutely no idea why it didn't work. Well, that really was irrelevant but he finally seemed to understand more or less the idea of the way the forum game was supposed to work, and I relented on some things, and gave him his time in the spotlight to unleash the firepower - he even posted in the forums with a bit more openness and leaving room for me to insert the dreaded, "However, as he attempts to do this..." and noted "NOW we're getting somewhere!", out of character, heh.

Don't get me wrong, it wasn't peaches and sunshine, and he remained the forum equivelant of the Terminator, who deigned to allow the others to accompany him, but they enjoyed working on more character development anyway, and I wrote them into some good spots and usefulness when they weren't quite in a position, and posted faithfully.

Obviously it WAS good for the ones that kept with it, as the healer, the rather generic archer with dubious luck, and the Seal (the Indiana Jones guy disappeared and STILL hasn't been online, but this is a strange bunch and they all do that from time to time) - sometimes they would post twice a day; I honestly had trouble keeping up with them, and after I ended it and wrote up the probably too long epilogue, explaining what happened, what else they could have done, what worked well, and what ultimately happened to their characters (the SEAL became a Man In Black - the weird kind, not the Tommy Lee Jones kind) - they all said it was really good and they enjoyed it a lot, and all asked me when I was going to do the next one (!!!) - *sigh* Heh.

So, with some extra work on my part (a bit more than I expected but really not ALL that much) and flexibility on the part of the players, even the SEAL, it turned out really to be a decent playtest, unanimously agreed upon by the players - so I guess I can't complain too much, though we're a fairly close knit little web-based group, almost a "game clan", so I guess they'd be more forgiving than just some random person who wandered in to play a forum game - but still, final alaysis: probably a little weak, with some definite obstacles, but successful with some interesting playing and creativity on everyone's part. It still might have been quicker and easier to simply have ended it early and said "this isn't working" but they all seemed relatively open (stubborn, but open) to trying to make it work, and turns out, a measure of extra patience saw the game through to its end - if I had it to do over again, I probably would still choose to try to finish the game, maybe its more misplaced faith or naievete, but if so, I'm willing to live with that.

So thanks to all of you who gave feedback and ideas, in one form or another, I probably used ALL of them in one situation or the next, as they were ALL sort of integral. Thumbs up. =)

How did it end? I gotta know. Did the other players get to play their pivotal roles?

Kudos on your committment and fortitude. Combine that with a bit better preplanning, and I think you're in for a lot of fun.

Mike

Well, as I said, it was kinda weak. The pivotal roles weren't that pivotal, in the grand scheme of things, but I afforded the characters their times in the spotlight when I could, taking out cultists this way or that way, following the little ghost girl to the cultists' cave, etc.

Stephen, the healer, chose as his 'one cool thing', a horse, Cheyenne - so I made sure to write all of his sections and results with her in mind as I posted, he really seemed to appreciate it, and kept that theme going, and only reluctantly left her aboveground to descend into the lair.

Urak, the rather generic 'guy with a bow', is much more used to totally insane freeform so his posts were sort of cautiously 'supportive' and never seemed to really be able to get into a rhythm or flow, he never lead anything or caused any reactions, etc - but he liked the bow, even though he didn't write it in as a 'cool thing' - he just mentioned he was 'okay with it' - hard to do much with a character who really just sort of 'is there' but I did what I could, and he seemed to be inexplicably happy with the results...

Kahless, due to the obstacles I faced, was de facto the leader and I pretty much gave him the forefront, which didn't seem to bother the others - they refused to use firearms, which irritated him to no end, which I thought was hilarious, as he kept picking up grenades and 9mms and carrying them around "just in case". I gave him his explosives, auto shotguns and finally his airstrike on the cave, as I realized from another thread in this forum, that he was an 'abused player' so I opted for the lopsided 'main character' option, since I knew the other two would be amiable and this was just a playtest, and he wouldn't feel ripped off.

I would link you or post my epilogue but really, as you can tell, I write FAR too much and it takes two mousewheel scrolls to get near the bottom of it, so in summary, while a police copter got caught in the no-combustion zone and crashed in to an already injured Star Spawn, they followed the little girl to the cave. They took out hooden cultists, grabbed their little symbols, which they used to get past the ghouls, infiltrated the big ritual, set explosives (and met a doe-eyed red-haired innocent cultist girl), got past the guards to the leader, I put a fake nazi-double agent in as an anti-cult agent and an international conspiracy undercurrent - I put in an ogre of sorts, a shuggoth in the floor about to be freed, a Hound of Tindalos and a dimensional rift when the leader summoned a ... I had no real idea of what, just something with lots of tentacles to impress upon them they wouldnt be able to do anything from inside...

Long story short, enough local griping and military satellite info, and catelyzed by the seal's earlier aborted transmit, brought in Da Gubment, who arrived just in time to airlift the uncsoncious or insane NPCs (Bessie and Julian), the inactive PC (the Indy type) and the players, allowing the Marine commander to see some of the monstrosities below and give the signal for a massive bombardment. I wrote up a few fake paper articles about the military conducting 'training exercises' without warning the town first, and writing off local tales of strange sounds and happenings as 'typical conspiracy stories'. Stephen and Urak, while not being punished, would find later stories about ghosts, one of a little girl, in the area (since they didnt FIND that part of the cave before it was blown), and I wrote the seal into being drafted into being a Man In Black. Summing it up, I wrote that years later, a new owner of Beautiful Springs Plateau (used to be a mountain before the "exercises") bought the property and put in a new hotel, and although occasional ghost stories abound, the owner, the now-older red-haired cultist girl from the cave, remarked its the disappearances, like some of which even get reported in this very area, she feels is the 'spookiest' thing because its just other mentally unbalanced or malign normal people...

Not on even Lovecraft's level by any means, I wanted a lot more 'spooky' Lovecraftian stuff in it but none of them seemed to mesh or take to it well so I kept it sort of in the periphery; given my own poor preperation and melding with the players, rotating players and the quirky variable of the Abused Player Munchkin SEAL, it really turned out a lot better than I was expecting and as I mentioned, everyone else seemed moderately or more pleased with the session overall. Naturally, I am not that forgiving of myself and it could have gone better but I think no matter what, you can only get certain results from certain components, and so all in all, I think it turned out about the only way it could, given the variables and constants in existance, and so while I would have liked to have been able to work on the other characters involvement more and portray the Mythos better, I really don't feel any regret over being able to tie the mess together fairly successfully, and have all the players ask for more. I don't think, however, I will GIVE them more - not in a session THAT open-ended - I do think I have learned the INVALUABLE lesson of REALLY understanding SOCIAL CONTRACT.