Topic: What to do when. . .
Started by: Kester Pelagius
Started on: 5/1/2003
Board: RPG Theory
On 5/1/2003 at 3:18am, Kester Pelagius wrote:
What to do when. . .
Greetings All,
I guess this belongs here as well as anywhere else so here goes. . .
There you are, surfing your favorite forum when someone's post makes you pause, take note of their sig, notice they have provided a link to their game site. So you click over, it looks promising, in theory. . . then you start to DL the preview PDFs of one (or more) of their systems that they provide online to let those interested get a feel for what they've done.
You start to read, only to get that let down in realizing what you're reading is, or at least looks and has the feel of, someone's homebrewed xD&D game translated into a clone so close it leaves you feeling you've just read through xD&D with the serial numbers filed off sort of experiance. But what if you think the basic game premise has merit, would like to comment, but can't think of any way to formulate a response that wont end up sounding like you're calling the designer a hack. What to do?
I know we've all seen a lot of this sort of thing but when you see a system that is so close to xD&D that you can immediately tell whether it was originally set in the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance (despite the authors best attempts to cover this up by renaming things) should you say anything to the game designer or just move on and let it go?
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 5/1/2003 at 3:46am, Jay Turner wrote:
Re: What to do when. . .
Kester Pelagius wrote: Greetings All,
I guess this belongs here as well as anywhere else so here goes. . .
There you are, surfing your favorite forum when someone's post makes you pause, take note of their sig, notice they have provided a link to their game site. So you click over, it looks promising, in theory. . . then you start to DL the preview PDFs of one (or more) of their systems that they provide online to let those interested get a feel for what they've done.
A shiver, because I got this far thinking you might have been talking about me. I guess I'm still new enough to be worried about what people think of my early game debuts. :)
I've run into this, especially on RPGnet, where I participate in the Art of Gaming Design forum. There are a lot of heartbreakers there. For me, being new to this whole thing, I generally point out that it's similar to D&D or Storyteller (90% of them seem to be heartbreakers of those types), point out the concepts that I thought were worth developing, and give them some references as to where to look for a different way of doing things. A lot of these people just don't know any better--I know I developed a handful of heartbreakers within the last few years, when all I knew was D&D and Storyteller.
If that's the case, showing them work from people like Ron, Clinton, and Jared (sorry guys, but you're the ones who broke down the barrier for me) should give them a view on what they could do differently.
I certainly never say, "You're a hack, stop ripping off a 20-year-old game, Hacky McLameHack." Nothing breaks a heartbreaker's heart like someone saying they're a bad game designer, just because they're ignorant of what else they could do.
On 5/1/2003 at 4:50am, Marco wrote:
RE: What to do when. . .
Tell them what you liked about it.
-Marco
[ Maybe commend them on their perfectly legal adoption of the most successful RPG mechanics system, bar none including my own, in the freaking known universe. ]
On 5/1/2003 at 5:35am, Jack Spencer Jr wrote:
RE: What to do when. . .
I once found a game that was supposed to be about roleplaying animals. The system was a direct theft of the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay system. I mean totally. He filed the serial numbers off but you could still read them, if you get what I'm saying.
Well, all I can say as far as advice about this is be polite, be direct, and get on with your life. That is tell them what's what but don't be mean about it. If you happen to notice a positive note, tell them. And then move on. Don't dwell on slamming the poor soul, that's just you feeding your ego. If fact, it might be best if you say nothing at all, because saying anything is just feeding your ego. If you abosolutely must say something, do it and move on.
On 5/1/2003 at 4:00pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: What to do when. . .
Um, if the person doesn't ask about it, I'd not go out of my way at all. In fact, perhaps they are aware of the game's shortcommings already. We have enough designs here to fix - do we really need to evangelize about it?
If they do ask, well, that's what the heartbreaker essays are for. It's not nice, but it sure beats trying to explain the same thing a zillion times. Hence my Standard Rant #1.
Mike
On 5/1/2003 at 4:12pm, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: What to do when. . .
Greetings,
Jay: Bit more than the game being a wee bit of a Fantasy Heartbreaker, it's more along the lines of Jack's example. What drew me in was the write up for the world setting. The premise spoke of promise and much that could be old, yet spun anew.
Marco: That's the problem it would basically be a "I like the premise/setting BUT. . ." sort of thing. (see below)
Jack: That's it exactly. I figure they have to know what they've done, then again they might not. I mean it's all there from the d20 mechanics to the (almost exact) layout of levels for spells and such.
Taken at a glance it's one of those "this looks like a old 1980s clone" system kinda thing. Too, from the history given on the site, that's where the game had its origins, and it shows. Even the races, of which all the ones you'd expect to see in resource for a xD&D setting are there.
It's essentially a homebrew 1st ed xD&D using bits of FR with undertones of UA, it's just like that warhammer game, very obvious. But, after some consideration, I am thinking if it is this obvious to me others visiting the site must realize it as well, and probably the author too. Given that, and considering Jack's excellent points, I'll leave it be.
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 5/1/2003 at 6:19pm, jdagna wrote:
RE: What to do when. . .
I'd say your response should depend on the person's claims about the game.
If they say up front that it's their own little homebrew and they're putting it up on the web just in case you find it interesting, then it probably isn't worth saying anything except to point out elements you do like. After all, if he's enjoying what he's doing, that was his only stated goal.
On the other hand, about half of these clones make some sort of claim towards revolutionizing the entire indutry (in another decade, when he actually has the time to finish it, of course). For this kind of person, pointing out the obvious similarities and failings is probably a good idea. Better to give out the bad news early. Naturally, I'd point out any strong points and suggest some alternate directions.
On 5/1/2003 at 9:35pm, Marco wrote:
RE: What to do when. . .
Kester Pelagius wrote: Greetings,
Marco: That's the problem it would basically be a "I like the premise/setting BUT. . ." sort of thing. (see below)
Kester Pelagius
I don't think that's a problem (but then, I don't believe in heartbreakers). Now, if you think this guy's plagerizing that's different (in serious and sublte ways)--but you suggested he was a "hack" and not "a thief" so I presumed it was the heartbreaker pheonema (and I wasn't the only one).
I think these guys are on to something that the whole heartbreaker crowd is missing--the fact that more people played and got more fun per hour per mile per gallon and per neuron outta AD&D and all its ilk than every alternate/indie/small-press/whatever game combined.
And if what I like is AD&D but I don't dig the magic system ... and I change that (for example) while it might break your heart, it's what we'd otherwise consider an evolution or improvement.
-Marco (who sincerely hopes his heart will never be broken by an RPG)
On 5/1/2003 at 10:23pm, Kester Pelagius wrote:
RE: What to do when. . .
Howdy,
Marco wrote: I don't think that's a problem (but then, I don't believe in heartbreakers). Now, if you think this guy's plagerizing that's different (in serious and sublte ways)--but you suggested he was a "hack" and not "a thief" so I presumed it was the heartbreaker pheonema (and I wasn't the only one).
I never said anything of the sort. If you go back and re-read what I wrote what I was saying is that any response/criticism about the parallels between the system as written and xD&D might come off sounding that way. Back handed compliments and all that, wot?
Marco wrote: I think these guys are on to something that the whole heartbreaker crowd is missing--the fact that more people played and got more fun per hour per mile per gallon and per neuron outta AD&D and all its ilk than every alternate/indie/small-press/whatever game combined.
True. Very true.
Maybe the next Forge Game Challenge should be to come up with a 80s style Classic Fantasy Heartbreaker System? I'm sure most of us have notes for one, or know where the ashes are buried. ;)
Marco wrote: And if what I like is AD&D but I don't dig the magic system ... and I change that (for example) while it might break your heart, it's what we'd otherwise consider an evolution or improvement.who sincerely hopes his heart will never be broken by an RPG)
Yep. There are certain basic elements that the old systems shared in common, namely in level progression and experiance and style/goal orientation of game play which. . . Hmm. . . Maybe we *should* make a list of what we liked about those old systems and see if anyone would really like to try their hand at designing a good old fashioned RPG?
Wouldn't even have to be from scratch, necessarily.
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
On 5/1/2003 at 10:31pm, Marco wrote:
RE: What to do when. . .
Kester Pelagius wrote: Howdy,
Yep. There are certain basic elements that the old systems shared in common, namely in level progression and experiance and style/goal orientation of game play which. . . Hmm. . . Maybe we *should* make a list of what we liked about those old systems and see if anyone would really like to try their hand at designing a good old fashioned RPG?
Wouldn't even have to be from scratch, necessarily.
Kind Regards,
Kester Pelagius
Definitely agree! I liked the ever-dwindling resources and the risk of going deeper and deeper into a dungeon before having to retreat. I also liked the clarity of purpose that comes with classes and levels (although not so much the mechanism it was handled with)--other stuff as well.
Hated the AD&D magic system. Hated it! :)
Take care,
-Marco
On 5/1/2003 at 10:31pm, Jeffrey Miller wrote:
RE: What to do when. . .
Kester Pelagius wrote: Hmm. . . Maybe we *should* make a list of what we liked about those old systems and see if anyone would really like to try their hand at designing a good old fashioned RPG?
About two weeks ago I dug up the ancient AppleWorks files which contain the evidence^wdetails of the Rifts heartbreaker I wrote shortly after I was exposed to the Palladium system for the first time.. *sigh*
In any case, unless you feel a burning desire to comment on the designers came, or have some special incentive to do so, I'd echo the comments already made here - just step away. Alternatively, send them a link to the Forge. :)
-jeffrey-