I've got a potential player- an old-school D&D player- who wants his character to be able to 'disbelieve illusions'... fine I think, right along with a classic theme (I remember screaming to disbelieve everything during one especialy arduous dongeon crawl)... but then, on second take, I realized this could hose up everything.

Oh a Dragon!

Roll to disbelieve Illusions!

Oh an Army of Deathwarriors!

Roll fo Disbelieve Ilusions!

The chest is empty!

Roll to disbelieve illusions!



How would you manage a fact-macking ability like this?

-B

Bailywolf wrote: I've got a potential player- an old-school D&D player- who wants his character to be able to 'disbelieve illusions'... fine I think, right along with a classic theme (I remember screaming to disbelieve everything during one especialy arduous dongeon crawl)... but then, on second take, I realized this could hose up everything.

Oh a Dragon!

Roll to disbelieve Illusions!

Player wins two successes...

1-Fact- the Dragon is disbelieved as an illusion.
a)Fact- there are no other monsters in the room.
or perhaps instead
b)Fact- there is a pile of treasure in the room.

GM either

1a-"Fine the illusionary Dragon vanishes leaving an empty room" "What do you do now?"

1b-"Fine the illusionary Dragon vanishes revealing a large Pile of Treasure, as you approach it, the Demon who was cloaked by the Illusion attacks you (give him ability Resist Dispel)"

or perhaps "You successfully resist the illusion, but your cohorts can't..."
[continue the fight as normal leaving the character out]

or perhaps- if the Player keeps overdoing it...

"You resist the illusion, awakening and realize that you are back at the entrance of the dungeon... having been trapped by a guardian illusion"
[the Dallas syndrome]
remove all the Players gained stuff from the dungeon

If he trys to Disbelieve again
then continue this back to town etc...removing all the players gained goods at all... keep any losses though, due to mental shock etc.

and for heaven's sake... have a field day if he ever tries and fails to disbelieve.

Bob's on it - remember that on success, no matter how many facts the player gets, the GM has control.

I particularly like the idea that you disbelieve the illusion - rendering it not visible to you - but your friends don't. One combat of you standing around while your friends get beat will change your mind pretty quickly.

Heh...I just saw a silly Viking movie with Tim Robbins last week...Erik the Viking?

Had this exact situation. The ship of Vikings were off to wake up the gods...one of the old geezer vikings didn't believe in gods. When they got to Valhalla everyone was running around doing stuff, the gods were throwing lightning around etc. and he just stood there looking at them like they were crazy 'cuz he couldn't see any of it. Of course, they were all trapped inside the hall but he was able to walk right through the wall because he didn't believe it was there.

Hmm. The only thing that I'd worry about is the breadth of application. That is, it's a treasure making ability, a secret passage finding ability, a creature avoidance ability (let's face it, if it's supposed to mirror D&D illusions, one disbelief makes it go away for everyone), etc. It also has some combat ability in that one can disbelive away weapons, armor, almost anything. One could think that the wound they'd just recieved is Illusory.

I'm having trouble coming up with an application where this ability couldn't be used. Which is only problematic in terms of breadth. Sort of an Uber ability that way. Which if used incessantly would make the whole world seem a very illusion-full place. That seems problematic.

Are the potential GM limits enough to keep such an ability at bay?

Mike

Forgetting one core Donjon Concept.

Any skill that broad can only be taken as the main ability. Disbelieving Illusions must then be that guys whole schtick...the very core of his character.

If not, if it is a secondary ability, than by the definition of secondary ability as they already exist it must be more specialized than this.

Each of your applications would IMO be a completely seperate skill if taken as a secondary.

That's a great point. Ben, the character wasn't buying this as a primary abiliity, was he? If not, then it has to be more limited by rule.

Mike

Ah I see... perhaps, Disbelieve Monstrous Illusions? Or Disbelieve Illusury Spells? Or Disbelieve Illususry Weapons?

With a limited focus, its pretty much a single-use normal ability. He rolls Disbelieve Monster Illusion when attacked by a monster to defend against its attacks- effectively treating it as a normal defense ability. If he shouts out "Hey, you knuckleheads! Its just an Illusion!" he can roll his successes into somone else's defensive roll... nice.

But while the demon-spider's claws might turn out to be illusion.... who's to say what might be underneath the illusion? He successfully uses it to defend against the spider's attacks, and he manages to convince himself that the great pointy bits are harmless... he fails to defend, and either he fails to convince himself the attack isn't real, and thus harmless, or he gets nailed by whatever is UNDER the spider illusion.

Alternatly, this ability could be attack-focused and do "damage" to illusions... illusions 'killed' with this ability vanish or reveal their true forms.

Thanks gang.

Um, but surely 'disbelieve illusion' is something anyone can attempt, like listening at doors, whether they have a bonus to Discernment from an ability or not. Limiting the kinds of disbelieve attempts that can get bonuses may help cut down on the number of successes, but it doesn't make the issue go away. You just have to be prepared to handle encounters that evaporate or change in the middle.

'Fact: the dragon is an illusion.'
'Ah! now you can see the shimmering outlines of the wizard in the middle, distracting and misleading you in your attacks. He brings his hands sharply together, and another fireball rockets at you!'

And anyway, if it was just an illusion, then they didn't defeat a monster, and get no treasure or XP.

Honestly, I'd drop this into the vs Mental save (I know they each have descriptors, but I always break them down into vs Mental and vs Physical). It'd be an ability that you could roll along with the save to generate extra successes.. but only when a save was called for by the DM.

(edit: wau! didn't realise this sucker was back from May)

This is how I'd run it:
"Okay, so you guess open the door and there's a goblin behind it."
"I roll Detect Illusions! I get one success! Fact: The goblin's an illusion!"
"Okay. So, as the illusion fades away, the ogre thumps you on the head with his big club."