I realize the first issue has been discussed in a previous thread on philosophies, but being back in Germany and pondering on Stahl a bit more, I'd like to discuss Stahl atheism a bit more in-depth.

A key question I think is: Ok, the Stahl nobility was seeing the church as meddling into their affairs too deeply. BUT: If we look at medieval and renaissance Europe, the precedents look different. In most cases, the nobility in question dismissed the authority of the organized church, but kept (most of) the fundamental philosophy intact, sometimes declaring themselves supreme head of their own version of the church.

One could argue that while they disliked the influence the church had over them, they still saw religion in general as a powerful tool to influence the public without having to resort to brute force.

So, why did the Stahl nobility act differently? If there is no God, they can't be "By God's grace, King of Stahl, Duke of etc., Count of ad nauseam". On what authority do they found their leadership, other than force of arms?

Second, and related only indirectly, what is the role of cities in Stahl (and elsewhere)? In Germany, at a parallel time, cities were becoming more and more influential, which commoners achieving influence rivaling and surpassing that of nobility. In some cases, cities shook off their feudal lords, in other cases, leagues of cities defied whole nations and waged war against them. How big is the influence of the nobility? Is Stahl mimicking the development in Germany, or is it on a more traditional course? Is there an equivalent to the Hanseatic League, and if yes, what is its influence on other nations?

What are your ideas on the issue?

Methinks Stahl's power came from the temporal, and in my opinion more solid, means of feudalism, loyalty and respect.

Check this.. If you are a peasant, you probably just want to live your life, plant your fields, love your wife and take care of your babies. You don't want to worry about invaders razing your fields, raping your wife, killing your babies. So you probably have someone to turn to who'll protect you with his troopers. In turn, you give him taxes (or work his lands, however it goes). He, in turn, gives fealty to the king in exchange for assistance in protecting his lands, trade, and the sense of identity that most every man craves.

Eventually, after this arrangement has been in place for a few generations, you serve your liege because your fathers did, and they treated them well. Loyalty grows, and out of it, respect. You respect them, they respect you.

Stahl strikes me as a no-nonsense nation. The atheism is an extension of this.. They never see the gods, they rarely, if ever, see true sorcery, so why SHOULD they believe? Peasants don't bother to think about these things, often lacking inclination and education, but the nobles have time to think, and the ability to conceptualize these thoughts due to their education.

The peasantry generally still follow the religions of their fathers, and pay lip service to Stahlnish Atheism. The nobles in turn acknowledge that their subjects are good atheists, while turning a blind eye to the truth, out of a respect for their subject's beliefs.

I imagine that there are exceptions, but I feel that this is very much the rule.

Wolfen wrote: Eventually, after this arrangement has been in place for a few generations, you serve your liege because your fathers did, and they treated them well. Loyalty grows, and out of it, respect. You respect them, they respect you.

Stahl strikes me as a no-nonsense nation. The atheism is an extension of this.. They never see the gods, they rarely, if ever, see true sorcery, so why SHOULD they believe? Peasants don't bother to think about these things, often lacking inclination and education, but the nobles have time to think, and the ability to conceptualize these thoughts due to their education.

Irmo wrote: The question why SHOULD they believe can easily be countered by 'Why should they NOT believe?' If they believed all the time it was real, why suddenly believe their ancestors lived a lie?

I don't know as much history as I should, so I'm going avoid making comments about Stahl in relation to Germany. Now with that being said...

A lot of the differences, IMO, between the TROS setting and Europe can be linked to how different Rome and Xanarium are. The differences between Rome & Christianity on one side, and Xanarium and the Three Become One on the other, fuel most of teh significant setting rifts.

In our world, Rome rose to be an incredibly powerful empire. Near its twilight, Christianity emerged on the imperial scene. Rome fell, leaving western Europe in an intersting spot. The setting in TROS is waaaaaaaaaaay different. In year 1 AD, Rome was already a superpower. Year 1 in Wyerth, however, had no Xanarium; that empire grew up with Xanar. When he was killed in the battle with the Great Betrayer, the empire outlived him, continuing for a few more centuries to extend across Mainlund, bringing its laws and its state religion. I would love to see a mini-supplement on Wyerth's classical age, but that is neither here nor there.

Stahl was conquered by Xanarium only a few centuries ago, and assimilation never was complete. No surprise that it was one of the first to rebel against the political control of Xanarium. I would also suspect that The Three Became One never truly have become the single pervasive religion of Stahl. Culturally, Stahl is a mish mash of a lot of different things, none of which has the power to remove all other influences.

That is why, in my opinion, the Stahlnish nobles rebelled against the religion and not just the Church: all of it was seen as foriegn. Of course, I am sure some nobles still quietly pray to Xanar for guidance, but publicly, Stahlnish culture in my mind is extremely chauvenistic (sp?).

The next question, though, is why atheism? Why not paganism or Thayrism? Mainlund is a place where magic exists, where Gols murder in the mountains and Vilkolak butcher in the forests. It is a place where 1500 years ago, God and Satan blew each other up and created a new sea. The mysterious and unexplainable is much more present. And by the Rennaisance, western man has developed its ultimate saying to throw in the face of the confusion: "Surely, there is a rational explanation for this."

Because the supernatural is more present, I think the push for reason in some places of Mainlund will be stronger. Stalhnish atheism would reject the existence of divine beings or powers meddling in the affairs of the world. In its place, everything are 'natural' and unthinking forces. Powerful, frightening forces, but with no consciousness, and certainly no plan. The purpose of Man, especially Stahlnish Man to bring these forces under control. The only design the world shall have is the world Stahl imposes on it with blood and iron.

Your question is where is divine authority. Stahlnish atheism is just as much of a religion as any other, only its divine authority is not a God, but an absolute confidence in cultural superiority. Sociologists today would call it a 'civil religion,' probably. Stahl probably has a belief in destiny as well in the sense of if we do it the Stalhnish way, we win. I suspect the story of Stahl is because of the constant wranglings against Xanarium, a common cultural ideal was invented, and authority shifted to that and away from a deity. I am quite confident Stahl has just as many structures for social control as anywhere else, but with different rhetoric behind it.

I'm unsure about the role of cities, so I'm not going to speculate.

One thing I realized about the TROS setting: it only mirrors Europe for the specific time it exists. Its history is radically different (because of the Xanar stuff), and I suspect its future will also be radically different (counter-crusades, England is attached to the continent, Spain & Italy are the same place, etc.) European history is good for ideas and inspiration, but it really is on a different historical trajectory.

Cool notes, but I'm having trouble with this one:

Because the supernatural is more present, I think the push for reason in some places of Mainlund will be stronger. Stalhnish atheism would reject the existence of divine beings or powers meddling in the affairs of the world.

Mike Holmes wrote:
The cool thing, of course, about building such a platform for the idea to stand on is that it often itself then provides ideas for play.

Anyone?
Mike

Ah, so the idea of Atheism existed in pre-takover Stahl in some form, and never went away totally. So it was a return to older values.

I'd buy that. As part of the explanation.

Any of that problematic, anyone?

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: That seems totally contradictory to me. Belief in supernatural things comes because we need explanations for things that we don't understand. If those supernatural things are more present, and just as unexplainable, then wouldn't that just reinforce this?

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote:
Any of that problematic, anyone?

Mike

Here's a hypothetical.

I'm a sorcerer in Stahl, and I cast a spell. How does the Stahlish aetheist respond? Do they have a change of heart? Do they claim that it's smoke and mirrors? Do they say, sure magic exists, it's just a natural force?

Mike

That is the single biggest nag for me with Stahlnish atheism. You have the two basic options though/

One answer is that the atheist's jaw hits the floor. He was taught that magic didn't exist. It obviously does. At this point, everyone gaming gets to have fun watching (or playing) someone who just had his world-view disproved. If magic is rare (at least in Stahl), then this works fine. Alternatively, if you want atheists to be a bunch of disingenuous manipulators and dupes, then this works fine.

The other answer I see is the atheist would see 'magic' as natural forces we don't understand. Unlike other religions, magic would have no link to demons or gods. Its just a natural force, like gravity or water or electricity. The Stahlnish sorceror would be all about calculation and formula. At this point, I have started the Age of Reason at the beginning of the Rennaisance in Germany. Not sure how I feel about that...

Personally, I prefer my setting for TROS to be magic-lite. If it is common in a setting, I would go with the second choice, even though it narrows Stahlnish atheism down to “no god, no design,” which I suppose is enough if the campaign ends up involving other characters with strong beliefs.

Nick Pagnucco wrote:
Stahl was conquered by Xanarium only a few centuries ago, and assimilation never was complete. No surprise that it was one of the first to rebel against the political control of Xanarium. I would also suspect that The Three Became One never truly have become the single pervasive religion of Stahl. Culturally, Stahl is a mish mash of a lot of different things, none of which has the power to remove all other influences.

That is why, in my opinion, the Stahlnish nobles rebelled against the religion and not just the Church: all of it was seen as foriegn. Of course, I am sure some nobles still quietly pray to Xanar for guidance, but publicly, Stahlnish culture in my mind is extremely chauvenistic (sp?).

Hello all,
I've been lurking here awhile and I'm glad to see a post on the setting rather than the rules. While I love the rules, I think the setting of TROS has a lot of promise and still needs a lot of development. These are the types of discussions I enjoy most.

Maybe the missing piece in Stahlish atheism is universities. Stahlisn universities could have very easily developed as a result of maratime trade, hense specializations in law, and because it was under the dominion of the Church for so long universities for theology could have started as well. Now within a university of theology, perhaps one intellectual starting asking those theological questions that so bugger monotheitic religions (i.e. If the Three are all-powerful, all knowing, and all merciful, why is there evil in the world?) This intellectual's answer could have been, 'Because the Three are a human made myth. They represent nothing but humanity writ large.' Off course, such a view would have gotten this intellectual kicked out of the university, but that doesn't mean that another noble, or nobles, wouldn't have personally agreed with him/her and sponsored became a patron of the intellectual. Years pass, books are made, ideas start to circulate. There is an undercurrent of doubt within Stahlish society, some nobles still believe in the Three, others pay lip service to the Three, others are not religious at all. Then the breaking point happens when the king decides he's had enough of the Church, using atheism as his justification, he throws the Church out of Stahl and takes over all Church land, or at least as much as he can get his hands on. Surprised by this move, and sense the king isn't all-powerful in Stahl, the nobles follow his lead not to be out done in the 'land-grab'. Whether they truely believe in atheism or not, they don't want the other nobles and the king to seize more land, and therefore become more powerful than them. Of course, the peasants at the bottom rung care nothing for this land grab and feel no need to take up an atheism that was never very well explained to them. All they know is that when a noble is around it is better for them and their families to say that the Three do not exist, otherwise they are kicked off their land. Of course, the Stalish aristocracy knows this, but that last thing they want is a massive religiously lead rebellion with the characteristics of a crusade on their hand. So they in reality very seldom throw peasants out of their lands (besides, they need the labor) and let the peasants believe what they will, as long as it doesn't threaten their position of social superiority.

Hense, the current status of religiousity in Stahl is shaky. Some nobles believe firmly in atheism, others pay lip service to it, but the mass of people below them still believe what they will (The Three, paganism, etc.). Now, if the Church could get a sneaky preacher into the Stalhish countryside to preach a crusade against the heathen athiests, they might be able to spark of a rebellion and put into power people who not only would allow the Church back into Stalh, but would be a valuabe ally against Gelure.

hiya...

I'm not completely sure what you are saying the problem in my argument is. The history you lay out for Christianity in Germany is much more detailed than anything I could do, I agree. However, the history you just described of Germany highlights the differences between Germany and Stahl. I think the single key issue you mentioned was the fact that the Roman Empire and Christianity were not the same thing. In Wyerth, Xanarium and the Church are EXACTLY the same thing (until only recently). In 773, Stahl became a vassal-state of Xanarium through political and religious actions, after an earlier, simply military conquest failed.

We don't have much information in the book to go on, but because we know what Stahl ends up like (independent & w/ Stahlnish atheism), I'm adding the information that this may have won over the political elite in Stahl at that time, but I doubt Xanar's Church became the pervasive religion, ever.

This is very different than the history of Germany you just described. Germany never became as a whole part of Rome (through conquest, alliance, or whatever). Likewise, The attempted move of Rome into Germany, and the attempted Christianization of Germany were different events. Third, The Christianization of Germany, by your dates, was established (if not complete) in the 8th century... the same time roughly the Church of Xanar BEGAN making its headways into Stahl. In essence, Stahl and Germany are mirror opposites: one was politically but not culturally assimilated. The other was culturally but not politically.

I hope I didn't misquote or misunderstand. What was the problem with my argument you saw? If I'm misunderstanding German history, I apologize. The point is I'm trying to look at the difference in their histories to understand the difference in results, which I think is the same task we're all doing in this thread.

A.J. wrote: Hello all,
I've been lurking here awhile and I'm glad to see a post on the setting rather than the rules. While I love the rules, I think the setting of TROS has a lot of promise and still needs a lot of development. These are the types of discussions I enjoy most.

A.J. wrote:
Maybe the missing piece in Stahlish atheism is universities. Stahlisn universities could have very easily developed as a result of maratime trade, hense specializations in law, and because it was under the dominion of the Church for so long universities for theology could have started as well. Now within a university of theology, perhaps one intellectual starting asking those theological questions that so bugger monotheitic religions (i.e. If the Three are all-powerful, all knowing, and all merciful, why is there evil in the world?)

<snip>

Hense, the current status of religiousity in Stahl is shaky. Some nobles believe firmly in atheism, others pay lip service to it, but the mass of people below them still believe what they will (The Three, paganism, etc.). Now, if the Church could get a sneaky preacher into the Stalhish countryside to preach a crusade against the heathen athiests, they might be able to spark of a rebellion and put into power people who not only would allow the Church back into Stalh, but would be a valuabe ally against Gelure.

Hey all. I'm back from a trip to Texas to train with John Clements, etc.

I just wanted to say that this is my favorite kind of thread around here. I'm very happy.

Jake

I hope you had fun training :)

Do you have any opinions or specific things that catch you with Stahl / Atheism?

(Edited for grammr 'n spellin')

*grumbles something about Jake only going to Texas once poor Irmo set sails back to Sta.. errrr Germany....*

I'd still like to talk a bit about cities, both in Stahl and elsewhere. In the real world, they were a major factor in the development of society, both in giving rise to powerful commoners, independent of the nobility, and by giving rise to scholarship outside monasteries. As such, I think the issue of cities and the power of the commoner population is a factor that needs to be considered also for the atheism by nobility fiat issue, but also in general for a better feeling on how the societies in Weyrth are set up.

Irmo wrote: I'd still like to talk a bit about cities, both in Stahl and elsewhere. In the real world, they were a major factor in the development of society, both in giving rise to powerful commoners, independent of the nobility, and by giving rise to scholarship outside monasteries. As such, I think the issue of cities and the power of the commoner population is a factor that needs to be considered also for the atheism by nobility fiat issue, but also in general for a better feeling on how the societies in Weyrth are set up.

Nick Pagnucco wrote:
Sounds reasonable, which of course means I want you to talk more :)

Historically, I only have a very basic understanding about the role of cities as centers of trade & learning. I don't have a good grasp of details at all. You obviously know German history, so use that to make some Wyerth specific details. Propose a historical narrative so people here can pick at it and see if anything pops off. I tried answering questions like these based on looking at the the effects of Xanarium as an imperial power (must...read... post colonial theory...). I tried my best to defend it so I could see what worked and what didn't.

So, where did the Stahlish cities come from? trade? outposts of Xanarium or another empire? Was learning originally linked to theology, or something else? How did this develop over time? So, have a go at it: using the setting's details, give the story of "religion and universities in Stahl." Pretend you're writing an abstract of a history book :)

Good news for me: I'm taking a historical-Comparative methods course ("Why did that country develop/industrialize/democratize this way and that country that way?") in my program at the fall, so by December I should be much better at BS'ing this stuff :)

On the topic of cities, what sort of things do you want to discuss? Their political structure? As if they were run by officals appointed by the local noble or if they were run by the guild masters of the city? I think if you want to limit your discussion to 'cities', meaning large urban centers, one might have to first discuss economics since large cities are almost always the result of economic factors. What products do the cities produce? (clothing, weapons and armor, etc?)

A major factor of city growth in the Middle Ages was the granting of town charters which gave the burgesses freedoms they would not have had if they were in the countryside, such as some degree of self-government. The reason nobles granted these charters was because they could earn a good chunk of money taxing a city's trade. Perhaps that's the first thing we have to decide about Stahlish cities, was the aristocracy willing to give up a degree of control over cities so that they could make money from them?

Are those the sort of issues you wish to discuss Irmo?

A.J. wrote: On the topic of cities, what sort of things do you want to discuss? Their political structure? As if they were run by officals appointed by the local noble or if they were run by the guild masters of the city? I think if you want to limit your discussion to 'cities', meaning large urban centers, one might have to first discuss economics since large cities are almost always the result of economic factors. What products do the cities produce? (clothing, weapons and armor, etc?)

A major factor of city growth in the Middle Ages was the granting of town charters which gave the burgesses freedoms they would not have had if they were in the countryside, such as some degree of self-government. The reason nobles granted these charters was because they could earn a good chunk of money taxing a city's trade. Perhaps that's the first thing we have to decide about Stahlish cities, was the aristocracy willing to give up a degree of control over cities so that they could make money from them?

Are those the sort of issues you wish to discuss Irmo?

Irmo wrote: So we might need to keep two other factors in mind: Age of city-style settlements in a region (tribal societies often shun settlements of that scale), and centralization. A decentralized style of governing allows for a bunch of significant, but not huge cities to develop, while a centralized government can lead to the development of a huge metropolis.

I agree with you Nick, sea trade is going to be much different, and while the Holy Roman Emperor might have wanted the backing of the cities, it doesn't seem like the High King of Stahl has been interested in trying to unify the country. In addition, the book says that Stahl is pretty much self-sufficient. I read this as meaning that far distance trade is quite limited. I see Stahl as having a few large towns where their steel making and weapons and armor production goes on, but other than that a land with a lot of villages. I think someone from Xanarium or Helana would see Stahl as a 'barbaric' country that is good only for its weapons and horses. As such, I think the role of cities would be slight as compared to the Hanastic league. Why would the High King want to promote them when there really isn't much money to be had from them? It would just upset the nobles who own the land around and maybe in the city. The High King probably wouldn't want those headaches!

The only real drive I see to giving freedoms to towns would be to promote weapon smiths into taking up residence in a particular town. That would be a lucrative trade for a noble to get their taxation powers on.

2 thoughts...

#1
I forgot the thing about being self-sufficient. This definitely sounds a bit different than a nation with strong trading.

With that being said, though, I suspect that specific parts of Stahl would be exceptions. Looking at the map, Stahl is rather large. I would imagine certain regions (parts of the southern coast, and the Mayyarfold area) are in strategic enough places that trade must go through them. However, those areas would be very different than most of Stahl. How this rift between higher and lower trade areas of Stahl plays out is anyone's guess... but I am SURE economics, politics, and Stahlnish atheism all get intertwined.


#2
This thread, IMHO, is important primarily because of the insights it can give into characters. TROS is, in my view, a game that focuses a lot of time and energy on the motivations of characters. Developing the setting, then, allows people to give their characters more by giving them an idea on what it means to be Stahlnish. How do people actually practice Stahlnish atheism? How would they react to a sorcerer or a Gol? Is Stahl a genereally cosmopolitan place, or orthodox? (either way, I'm sure it is quite snobbish) Setting information can help answer these questions, or possibly raise other interesting ones for players/characters to ponder. I'm doing a poor job of integrating this comment into the pre-existing thread, but I think this is an important point to keep in mind while we discuss Stahl's culture and religion.

Nick Pagnucco wrote:
On the subject of something like the hanseatic league, I think it is a good idea, but a lot of things need to be considered. Primarily, the coastline of Mainlund is RADICALLY different to that of Europe. Stahl is a huge blob that just keeps going north and east. Savaxen is an island due west of Stahl. Angharad (sp?, the Welsh-type place) and Ferrenshire are both attached to the mainland (Stahl specifically), but not each other. Picti is an island just south of Savaxen. I don't know what the ramifications of all of that are, but I'm sure they exist.

Also add to the mix that Portugal doesn't exist, and that the equivalent of Spain & Italy (Xanarium) is the source of conservative, traditional behavior, and I feel safe saying that sea-trading in general is going to be very, very different than anything in Europe.

Nick Pagnucco wrote:
This thread, IMHO, is important primarily because of the insights it can give into characters. TROS is, in my view, a game that focuses a lot of time and energy on the motivations of characters. Developing the setting, then, allows people to give their characters more by giving them an idea on what it means to be Stahlnish. How do people actually practice Stahlnish atheism? How would they react to a sorcerer or a Gol? Is Stahl a genereally cosmopolitan place, or orthodox? (either way, I'm sure it is quite snobbish) Setting information can help answer these questions, or possibly raise other interesting ones for players/characters to ponder. I'm doing a poor job of integrating this comment into the pre-existing thread, but I think this is an important point to keep in mind while we discuss Stahl's culture and religion.

Irmo wrote: Can anyone give a poor guy whose book is in a box on a different continent some brief description of what Savaxen looks like? Scandinavia was an important market of the Hanseatic league, and a lot would depend on a reasonable infrastructure...

While the Hanseatic league today is most famous for its sea trade, it needs to be kept in mind that numerous landlocked towns were part of it, and it extended far south into the middle of today's Germany.

Nick Pagnucco wrote:
ok... Geographically, imagine a rectangle. The entire eastern edge of this rectangle is the Stahlnish coastline. In the southeastern corner of the rectangle, there is a penninsula sticking out to the west. This is Angharad (described in the book as a Welsh-like Celctic culture). In the southwestern corner of the rectangle, there is the island of Picti (Pict / Scottish / Pict from Pendragon RPG culture). The remainder of the rectangle (North, Northwestern corner, and due west) contain several islands (2 large, 5 small). That set of islands is Savaxen. South of the box is Gelure & Farrenshire.

ok, so... what is the key thing about the Hanseatic league, as far as a TROS-equivalent goes? The idea of a network of cities politically allied due to commerce? Something different or more detailed than that?

I think the only opportunity for an Hanseatic League in Stahl would be in the southeast. I sort of doubt trade would be vibrant enough in the southwest to create the sort of wealth that merchants need to develop into political powers. After all, from the description in the book, Saxaven is probably a sparsly populated island with it's greatest income being raiding, not the sort of place with a high volume of trade. In addition, the Saxavens raiders would be sea-trade too risky in the 'Sea of Raiders' to even warrent investing capital in the overseas trade with Farrenshire, Gelure, or the Empire. While there might be a few wealthy merchants in southwest Stahl, a league of them seems unlikely.

Of course, that's just the way I'm interpreting the material!

A.J. wrote: I think the only opportunity for an Hanseatic League in Stahl would be in the southeast. I sort of doubt trade would be vibrant enough in the southwest to create the sort of wealth that merchants need to develop into political powers. After all, from the description in the book, Saxaven is probably a sparsly populated island with it's greatest income being raiding, not the sort of place with a high volume of trade. In addition, the Saxavens raiders would be sea-trade too risky in the 'Sea of Raiders' to even warrent investing capital in the overseas trade with Farrenshire, Gelure, or the Empire. While there might be a few wealthy merchants in southwest Stahl, a league of them seems unlikely.

Of course, that's just the way I'm interpreting the material!

In that case you'd want them between Savaxen and Picti/Angharad, where they have to deal with the threat of piracy all the time, but aren't so close that there's a technology/civilazation overlap.

Jake

Irmo wrote: *g* Sorry, misunderstanding here....the geographical layout I can get from the map on the website...I was more interested in what it looks like culturally. Specifically, what is the level of organization? Are we talking about losely allied viking raiders or a Denmark, Norway or Sweden style kingdom?

So, if there is to be a parallel in Stahl, it could be anywhere in the range described, whether we're talking about local, regional or national levels, e.g. there could be one league in the southeast, regulating trade with Cyrinthmeir, Zaporozhya and Sarmatov, and one in the west regulating trade with Angarhad, the islands, Farrenshire, Ouestenreich and possibly Gelure and possibly the profitable but risky far trade with Xanar -and of course intra-Stahl trade in their area... at the line of contact there could be constant vying for control, as cities switch allegiances for promises of privileges.... just as one wild idea...