This one currently has a somewhat "big whoop" negative flavor to it so a few well placed comments might be a good idea. I'd caution against any bum rush of fanboy praise, however.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=926914#post926914

Ahhh... rpg.net, the great refuge of armchair experts and social and sexual deviants from all over the world. Remember, if you read it on the Internet or the European Press, it must be true!

Look every one at how smart I am; I can pick apart any RPG from any angle. And I've made my own rules that are far more superior than any out there, as am I, but which I will never allow any to ever see!

People like that are even worth my time to read their silly comments nor comment on their stupid remarks, so take some advise from some one who has all ready made two mistakes today... don't bother.

Eamon is probably right in his estimation, and these guys are so starved for any kind of real human contact that arguing with them will only provide them with what they really want IMHO.

I personally can't help but picture the "Comicbook Store Guy" from the Simpson's when I saw "The Enlightened One" written under that one guy's name.

Durgil wrote:
I personally can't help but picture the "Comicbook Store Guy" from the Simpson's when I saw "The Enlightened One" written under that one guy's name.

The return of gleichman...

Would someone buy that man a good dose of common ettiquette? I swear that I for one am sick of his half ass commentary.

Furious D wrote: Actually, "Enlightened One" is just the default title that RPGNet gives a poster once they have made 100 posts (they are "Adept" before that).

Ashren Va'Hale wrote: The return of gleichman...

Would someone buy that man a good dose of common ettiquette? I swear that I for one am sick of his half ass commentary.

Gleichman's intelligent commentary (read with healthy sarcasm) has not endeared him to most people on this board.
He once wrote some stuff that had us question not only his ability to argue a point but also his eligibility to be lumped in with the rest of humanity as a sentient being.

Hi Folks,

As much as Mr. Gleichman has caused me to stop frequenting the rpg.net boards, I'd say talking garbage about him behind his back does very little to help our cause.

Chris

In this I agree with Chris.

My post here was not at all meant to spawn this kind of thread. The RPG thread, even without Brian's input was one largely of an "I don't get why people like this game" and I thought one or two fans would help explain it.

I'm rather sorry I brought it up, because quite frankly this thread is pretty embarrassing, and not at all up to the usual standards of this forum or the Forge in general.

For the record I think Brian has ALOT of very inciteful and intelligent things to say. The articles on tactical gaming he wrote for RPGNet are excellent pieces of work that everyone should read. Its unfortuneate that his irrational hatred for anything related to the Forge turns him into slathering attack dog any time the Forge, Indie Games, GNS or a game featured here comes up as a topic of conversation, but lets try not to stoop to the same tactics. This thread really serves only as an example justifying his feelings about us, and that's not a good thing.

On note of something a bit more productive-

I personally attribute the "eh, so what attitude" to folks who either haven't played TROS, or folks who play it without actually using the Spiritual Attributes as written. This sort of thing often occurs because most folks are used to rpgs working "a single way", just with different dice, stats, kewl powers, and probabilities, and skim the game and "assume" how things work.

This sort of stuff is the same thing that happens when folks play Sorcerer without giving protagonism over to the players...

I first put forth this idea right here:
http://indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=4491

I know for a lot of folks they were less than pleased with the "New! Different! Innovative!" comments in the book, but for TROS, I'm forgiving because the words are true :)


Chris

I was not intending to badmouth gleichman behind his back, I just meant to badmouth him. Had I caught his stuff earlier I might have said something on the rpg.net forum but arguing with him is like fighting with a chimpanze with down syndrome and a hangover.

Ok that was harsh, I apologize to all handicaped chimpanzees for that comparison.

Hello in IMHO ,any press is good press. RPG net has a large fan base(obveously), the more people hear about TROS the more its going to sell.
Actually RPG net is where I first heard of the game. And from what I have read here and on other boards RPG net has helped TROS to spread in popularity.(and sales!)
One thing that always drove me crazy about RPG net is the constant bickering about different systems.
Anyways just pitty the close minded and continue to enjoy TROS.

The point, gentlemen, in replying, is not to attempt to convince this Gleichman fellow. It has been made abundantly clear to me that he is irrationally against TRoS, and most anything else from the Forge.

His loss.

The point in replying is to not allow his opinion of this game, and any other that he may badmouth over there, to go unchallenged in the eyes of the gaming public. His mind may not be capable of being swayed, but the readers who have yet to try TRoS may be convinced against buying this game by his negativity, unless they are given eloquent, sensible and moving examples of why they should buy this game.

That is the point in replying. If this Gleichman fellow is as bad as put forth, why waste the time and the webspace here talking about him? The best revenge one can have upon one's enemies is to allow them to be forgotten.

As a frequent poster to rpg.net, and indeed someone who has posted to the thread in question, I'd just like to say that this kind of thread is precisely the kind of thing most likely to put people off the game.

I see snide comments, sweeping criticisms of the site and all on it, personal attacks which utterly ignore posters' actual comments, nothing remotely positive about the game itself.

Eamon, Durgil, thanks for the comments about sexual deviancy and being starved of all human contact. As someone who posts more frequently on rpg.net than on the Forge and as someone who raised criticisms of the game on that thread I feel it is reasonable to assume I fell within those comments. Quite seriously, how do you think that suggesting that I and those I princiipally choose to interact with online are socially maladroit sexual deviants helps promote or encourage play of the Riddle of Steel?

The answer to criticism is to engage with honest posts about why you like the game and how you had fun with it. If a poster appears to be under a misapprehension about how an aspect of the game works in actual play you can politely explain how your experience does not support that misapprehension. If you read the thread in question you will see Valamir do this with concerns I raised, politely and helpfully. I am more likely to play now because of his approach. Do you think your approach would also make me more likely to play?

Valamir is right, the responses here fall vastly below the quality of normal discourse at the Forge. Eamon, Durgil, you have both managed to make me highly likely to disregard your posts in future rather than have to wade through more insulting nonsense like that you posted here. Way to go guys.

Eamon Voss wrote: Ahhh... rpg.net, the great refuge of armchair experts and social and sexual deviants from all over the world. Remember, if you read it on the Internet or the European Press, it must be true!

Balbinus wrote:

Eamon Voss wrote: Remember, if you read it on the Internet or the European Press, it must be true!

While I'm here, nice random dig at the European press Eamon. Italian, German, British, Irish, French, all foreigners to you eh?

toli wrote:

Balbinus wrote:

Eamon Voss wrote: Remember, if you read it on the Internet or the European Press, it must be true!

While I'm here, nice random dig at the European press Eamon. Italian, German, British, Irish, French, all foreigners to you eh?

I could be wrong, but I thought the point was not a dig at the European press per se. It seems more like a dig at conspiracy types who think the US press isn't honest and that the Europen press is more honest.

My apologies for being blunt, but...

The moral of the story: to be perceived as a bunch of rabid fanboys is bad, because it means the fans are giving the game a bad name. We have become perceived as a bunch of rabid fanboys and have failed to alter that perception. I guess I'm more or less agreeing with sentiments both Val & Balbinus have stated.

My question at this point is what further productive value does this thread have? I suspect it now only serves to bash people or other sites, and then to rebut with "Am not!" (even if it is a rather accurate or articulate 'am not').

If my suspicion is accurate, then I suggest the thread be closed.
If my suspicion is not accurate, then please let me know why.

I think this thread probably should be closed, but I think a spin-off thread discussing common problems newbies may have with the game, common criticisms and comon reasons for disliking it would be valuable.

In that thread meaningful discussion could be had about how to correct misapprehensions while also discussing how to recognise when in fact the game just isn't right for a particular poster and knowing when to acknowledge that fact.

That kind of thing can be tremendously positive. Not everyone needs converting. Some who dislike the game can be brought round by better explanation. Some may be neutral but just not understand fundamental points or the importance in actual play of aspects of the game such as Spiritual Attributes. Some people just won't like the game whatever because it's not doing something they like.

I do think that would be a useful and potentially helpful thread.

I agree that such a thread would certainly be useful. Clearly, some long, good thought given to the common criticisms could prove fruitful. Responses could range from, "Ah, well, you see it actually works like this..." to "Well, it does work like that, and some like it, and others don't" to "Yeah, that could have been done a tad better." It is getting pretty clear what some common criticisms and questions are, both here and at rpg.net, and I completely agree that some discussion of that would be useful.

With that being said, however... that is not what this thread has become. Not really. Underlyiong that part of the thread is a problematic layer of 'one true game' being perceived by some people. As I said, being seen as a rabid fanboy is bad, for for the alleged fanboy, and for the game (s)he enjoys. We can debate how much of an 'academic discourse' we want the TROS forum to have (to steal a line from Fang), but if the forum as a whole comes across as snobbish, then that is bad.

That is what this thread, at its core, is about. Or rather, that is what this thread unveiled. Unfortunately, I don't have much commentary on this, be it on the causes or solutions.

I don't think the forum as a whole is at risk of appearing snobbish. This thread is unfortunate, but it is not typical of what I've found on this forum by any means.

Happily, when I've wandered over here in the past with queries or whatever I've found the RoS forum helpful and friendly. This is the first and thankfully only time I've found it aggressive and offensive.

And the answer in a way is that fanboyism isn't a bad thing. Enthusing is not bad. It's only when you insult those who disagree or prefer an alternative that it all goes wrong. Positive enthusiasm is always an asset for a game.

Good point.

I apologize if I have been overly grumpy today :)

See, I don't really have to moderate...you guys are working this out on your own. Let's hear it for o'd-fashioned maturity, eh.

Jake

Balbinus wrote:

Eamon Voss wrote: Ahhh... rpg.net, the great refuge of armchair experts and social and sexual deviants from all over the world. Remember, if you read it on the Internet or the European Press, it must be true!

While I'm here, nice random dig at the European press Eamon. Italian, German, British, Irish, French, all foreigners to you eh?

I cannot politely express my contempt for this post.

Balbinus wrote: Eamon, Durgil, thanks for the comments about sexual deviancy and being starved of all human contact. As someone who posts more frequently on rpg.net than on the Forge and as someone who raised criticisms of the game on that thread I feel it is reasonable to assume I fell within those comments.

Balbinus wrote: ...the responses here fall vastly below the quality of normal discourse at the Forge. Eamon, Durgil, you have both managed to make me highly likely to disregard your posts in future rather than have to wade through more insulting nonsense like that you posted here. Way to go guys.

Durgil wrote:
I love gaming, but some people are really take this way too serious.

Uh.. sexual deviancy? I'll have to go read that thread again, I didn't spot anything like that in there.

Oh, and I really can't express how sorry I am that Brian Gliechman doesn't like me... :-)

Brian.

Allright, I take back the maturity comment. The thread is closed.

Jake

you see, you are the type of poster I can live with, as are most of the guys on RPG.net, its the single guy, who I singled out that I have problems with. I felt I was specific enough in my crticism and explanation for not getting engaged in that debate.

Thats all from me for now

The thread is closed.

Jake

Jake gave me specific permission to post this in response to Eamon.

Eamon,

Thanks for the apology, both here and the one on private message.

If it's any consolation, you've done nothing I haven't done more than once. In fact, I've messed up sufficiently in the past that I've had to post public apologies myself so I wouldn't worry too much.

Also, I obviously misinterpreted your European press comment for which I do genuinely apologise myself. On reflection, I am aware of the kinds of posts on rpg.net (generally Tangency) which you refer to and the kneejerk suspicion of your media and assumption that our media is any better.

Anyway, thanks again and next time hopefully we'll both manage to communicate with our feet outside our respective mouths :-)

Best,

Max