Topic: The Flower of Battle
Started by: Tywin Lannister
Started on: 5/23/2003
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 5/23/2003 at 5:54pm, Tywin Lannister wrote:
The Flower of Battle
What exactly is going to be in this book? And when will it be released?
This is what I hope for:
Detailed explanations of the already existing combat rules & maneuvers, additional maneuvers (perhaps in groups according to region/culture), additional combat rules, detailed game examples with various rules, an in-depth look at "defaults" (I still struggle with the concept :/ hehe), battles, detailed look at bouts with more than 2 participants, more weapons, shields and similar equipment, perhaps some additional damage tables...am I asking too much here? :p
The Riddle of Steel *rocks* !
On 5/23/2003 at 7:52pm, Durgil wrote:
Re: The Flower of Battle
Tywin Lannister wrote: ...perhaps some additional damage tables...am I asking too much here? :p
The Riddle of Steel *rocks* !
I was just thinking that there is might be a big difference in the type of wounds delivered by a cutting sword, such as a scimitar or sabre and the big swords like a great sword or bastard sword. The first ones I would think cause large lacerations to the soft tissues of the body like muscle and organs, but typically don't harm bone very much. The big European swords have more of a chopping action to them, and may or may not cut through a lot of flesh, but they are probably going to cause a lot of bludgeoning types of wounds. Maybe something like that would be nice.
On 5/23/2003 at 9:07pm, Jake Norwood wrote:
RE: The Flower of Battle
Ah, the difference isn't too big. I've seen those "heavy" european swords cleave straight through beef sides, bone and all.
Jake
On 5/23/2003 at 10:17pm, Salamander wrote:
RE: The Flower of Battle
Gotta agree with Jake on this one. The idea of a western blade doing more bashing is a myth. Historically the western sword has done as much cutting as the oriental weapons, the only difference (and this is relatively minor) is how the cutting gets done.
I have seen demos (admittedly on video) of a great sword being swung from the elbow cutting a great slice of pork shoulder, flesh & bone cleaved with out any more effort than one would put into waving enthusiastically at somebody. I have seen demos where a piece of meat was covered with a gambezon padding and a 30cm x 30cm piece of maille (chain mail) and then struck with a bastard sword, while the maille only suffered minor damage and the gambezon virtually none, the meat was torn to a signifigant degree, like taking you out of the fight signifigant. A few examples have shown the maille failing in several locations or even totally. http://www.thearma.org/Videos/Videos.htm
At Visby (a relatively well archeologically preserved medievel battle field) there were examples of peoples legs cut right off, that's through the femur, folks. There is even one example cited where a man lost both legs to a single blow. Considering there were more single handed than two handed swords by a ratio of 10:1 I would guess it would have had even-on odds of being a single handed sword or a long sword that did this, and you see just how mean these swords can be.
Of course I can go on about the myths that have arisen around the Knight as a clumsey hulking brute who won due to his tank-like armour and raw strength, but only if you ask... ;)
As far as the tables go, the ones we have seem to describe how the damage was done pretty well from what I have learned as a fecht scholar.
I think I would be more interested in a more complete selection of armours & weapons, and how things got done than just adding more weapon damage tables. All of which I am perfectly willing to help with, I might add.
On 5/23/2003 at 11:09pm, Eamon Voss wrote:
RE: The Flower of Battle
In last night's game a player managed a level 7 injury to the hip of his opponent. Yep, I said he cut both legs off at the hips! And I ruled the bad guys were so shocked that they bolted.
I love this game!
On 5/24/2003 at 1:38am, Durgil wrote:
RE: The Flower of Battle
Weren't all of these wounds that you discribed the result of the chopping like action of European swords, which follows the cutting tables in TRoS. What about the curved blades like in the Middle-east and Far-east? Weren't the combatants less armoured and the weapons more designed to cut you open than to chop stuff off of you?
On 5/24/2003 at 4:47am, Ashren Va'Hale wrote:
RE: The Flower of Battle
not really all that different. Thats really all there is to it. If you are talking about the difference between a chop and a slice you could do either with either weapon. If you feel like creating a slice damage table I suppose that would be interesting...
All I woudl really want to see added to TFOB would be a detailed list of counters, possibly with illustrations lifted from public domain historical plates. Basically list the options like Hangen, dirk felsen, meister hau, and pressing the hands so that players can choose the counter most appropriate for the situation instead of the random table. Since most of my players (emphasize most) have experience in ARMA I let them choose the appropriate counter. This is a lot more fun than rolling a d10. I suppose a list would take tiem to compile but it need not be complete, just a list of common counters with swords against basic strikes- like the basic thrust, overhand, side and upward swings. This would just be a fun addition.
On 5/24/2003 at 3:02pm, Durgil wrote:
RE: The Flower of Battle
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "counter." Could you explain?
On 5/24/2003 at 3:39pm, Salamander wrote:
RE: The Flower of Battle
Durgil wrote: I'm not quite sure what you mean by "counter." Could you explain?
A counter is a general classification of a counter attack. In the Medievel and Renaissance Fencing (The German ones, at least)* styles there was a philosophy of turning your defence into an attack, your foiled attack into an attack and basically turning his and your mistakes into attacks as well. If you did not turn whatever into an attack, you lost initiatve and were stuck on the defence. When this happens, you will die. This is a truth because you are doing no harm to him and eventually he's gonna getcha.
Anything that meets the criteria of turning something into an attack can be considered a counter. I am not going to name them because there are literally hundreds and they have different names in different schools! Besides, names and descriptions are basically hollow without actually getting a demonstration.
* I can only say for certain the German styles, as I am currently learning them from my instructor. Trust me, he knows the true meaning of counter.
On 5/25/2003 at 7:08pm, Tywin Lannister wrote:
RE: The Flower of Battle
Instead of creating a new thread for this question, I'll ask it here since it's about combat:
Two characters both roll offensive die. So they go in for the attack. Then, player A decides to buy initiative. After rolling, it's still a tie between the characters.
What now?
On 5/25/2003 at 8:04pm, Salamander wrote:
RE: The Flower of Battle
Tywin Lannister wrote: Instead of creating a new thread for this question, I'll ask it here since it's about combat:
Two characters both roll offensive die. So they go in for the attack. Then, player A decides to buy initiative. After rolling, it's still a tie between the characters.
What now?
They both resolve their attacks normally and possibly one or both of them die. And both of them regret not having chosen the Evasive Attack or Counter instead...
On 5/26/2003 at 6:31am, Irmo wrote:
RE: The Flower of Battle
Salamander wrote:
At Visby (a relatively well archeologically preserved medievel battle field) there were examples of peoples legs cut right off, that's through the femur, folks. There is even one example cited where a man lost both legs to a single blow. Considering there were more single handed than two handed swords by a ratio of 10:1 I would guess it would have had even-on odds of being a single handed sword or a long sword that did this, and you see just how mean these swords can be.
One caveat.... the sword ratio isn't really that informative, since it assumes as a sine qua non that the wounds in question were actually done by swords. An axe would have probably been equally viable, and through its top-heaviness would have a pretty high angular momentum that at least in my theorist's view could explain cutting through BOTH legs much better than a sword.
On 5/26/2003 at 4:55pm, Salamander wrote:
RE: The Flower of Battle
Irmo wrote:
One caveat.... the sword ratio isn't really that informative, since it assumes as a sine qua non that the wounds in question were actually done by swords. An axe would have probably been equally viable, and through its top-heaviness would have a pretty high angular momentum that at least in my theorist's view could explain cutting through BOTH legs much better than a sword.
Very true, however an axe cutting through two legs would have to meet a few conditions.
The axe would have to have a very long cutting area, at least 40cm or so for it to get both legs as the person wielding it would still have to follow an arc. A sword has a pretty long cutting edge, perhaps as long as two to three times this, depending upon the blade. Axes of this era tended to have a cutting surface of between 15-20cm, save the big skeggox and its bretheren.
The axe was generally not a weapon that could cut so deep due to its generally thicker distal profile, as opposed to a sword, which tends to be much better at this sort of thing. Axes can remove a leg, yes, but for it to cut both? I think that the fellow was most likely done in by a sword.
Hence my belief that the wound was done by a sword and thusly my rather hodgepodge guestimate as to the odds of which type of sword may have created this particular casuality.
On 5/31/2003 at 1:41pm, Michael Tree wrote:
RE: The Flower of Battle
All this game mechanical stuff would be nice (especially a new system for buying initiative), but I'd like to see lots of flavor too.
In particular I'd like to see a chapter on dueling, with all the various types of dueling, and dueling rules and conventions used in different countries. Reasons for challenging a duel would be nice, as well as other purposes that duels serve.