Topic: DragonGrace: Experience
Started by: dragongrace
Started on: 5/23/2003
Board: Indie Game Design
On 5/23/2003 at 7:00pm, dragongrace wrote:
DragonGrace: Experience
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjeskiewicz/DG_Experience.html
I've read through some old threads on the vlue of experience systems and rewards and nonesuch. I've hashed together a simple little experience system, and I'm looking for thoughts onto whether ot not this would promote narrative gameplay and quite possibly co-operation among the players.
For the benefit of those not wanting to visit the link:
The easiest way to gain experience is by being involved. If you simply sit back and watch others act you do not gain experience. Those players that write stories gain experience for the characters involved. The principle character in the story gains the experience based on a few simple ideas.
Players keep track of their own experience for the most part. Additional experience is given by the GM. Players who earn experience do not need to spend it right away. Experience in DragonGrace is a metagame currency. Experience can be gained by doing things outside of the in-game environment. Drawing sketches, maintaining a web page, archiving, etc. can earn experience for doing these things. Getting experience for these kinds of activites is given by the GM. Players however can also give away their experience to others who they think deserve it. Examples of Players giving themselves experience are:
For using a skill or special ability . . . 1 xp (typically tacked on to what it pertains to)
Simply posting in character (for more than a few lines) . . . 2 xp (good for spending on others)
For ending a sequence or story arc . . . 5 xp (Good for spending on oneself)
Examples of GM rewards are:
A Player leaves an opening for another player to join in . . . 1 xp
A player gives an excellent writing description . . . 2 xp
A Player ends a sequence or story arc . . . 10 xp
And for certain occasions where humor helps the situation or alleviates a dark mood . . . 1 xp
Contributing to the Out of Game environment . . . 1-5 xp
Players can give each other rewards from their experience pools for such things as making them laugh, writing an excellent segment, getting their player into the story, etc. They can also pass out xp to others for doing the Out of ame functions that they appreciate. One of the functions of the GM is to act as the conduit for all these Player gains and expenditures of Experience.
As you can see experience is very easy to get. Also, there is a purpose for the outlines and proposed direction for the character. Both the GM and the player know when a story arc has ended.
For good writing and a good story you can find that for each post you will gain on the average about 5-10 xp. That means generally in about 10 posts you'll quickly find yourself with a good deal of experience points. This means that after some time you will find that the points you have exceed the rate that your character is progressing. You can begin to think about adding another character to your Character Pool, or encouraging others by spending points on them.
JOE--
On 5/27/2003 at 5:56pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: DragonGrace: Experience
So, if I am a player, and want to award EXP to another player, does it come from my own EXP? That is, my total reduces by the total the other player's goes up? If so, are there ever going to be problems with losing abilities if I spend a lot?
I'm not sure about calling these EXP. I mean, they're not awarded for experiences, per se. OTOH, they do act like that after they're awarded. Hmmm..
Mike
On 5/27/2003 at 7:29pm, dragongrace wrote:
RE: DragonGrace: Experience
Mike wrote: So, if I am a player, and want to award EXP to another player, does it come from my own EXP? That is, my total reduces by the total the other player's goes up? If so, are there ever going to be problems with losing abilities if I spend a lot?
You are correct in that it comes from your own pool of points. These are points that are not currently in use. Like in West End's Star Wars you could hold onto character development points until you wanted to spend them (at least that how we did it.) Here you can spend your spare points on another player who you think deserves it or could use it to develop their character.
Once a point is spent on your character though you can't get it back. So you are not drawing points away from any of a character's existing skills to give to another player. You aren't losing abilities no matter how much you spend. And you can only spend from your existing experience pool. If your pool is depleted, then you cannot reward others for actions you think are cool/useful/etc.
Mike wrote: I'm not sure about calling these EXP. I mean, they're not awarded for experiences, per se. OTOH, they do act like that after they're awarded. Hmmm..
This makes me think as well. I thought about changing the name of the element but only thought about it for a very short time and decided I'd rather get opinions on the element as it is a familiar concept rather than calling it MetaChips or GameTokens or something odd, that detracts further away from the intended purpose of the points.
It seems to me that, as you say, once they are awarded they do function in a sense as EXP. and maybe as a final term they need to be called generically Game Tokens, or Game currency, or chips, or Player Points.
For this idea I was looking at threads mainly involving Mr. Wick and 7th Sea style game rewards.
JOE--
On 5/28/2003 at 5:57am, Emmett wrote:
RE: DragonGrace: Experience
I would never give away my EXPs, they're too hard won. But thats just me, you narritive folks are a different breed from me. I always used my points in Star Wars to get pips. I thought the idea of using them for temporary boost was wasteful. If I save up and build up my pips, I will have better rolls forever after instead of one good roll. I guess I have an economic veiw of experiance points.
Just my opinion. . .
On 5/28/2003 at 11:36am, ADGBoss wrote:
RE: DragonGrace: Experience
Emmett wrote: I would never give away my EXPs, they're too hard won. But thats just me, you narritive folks are a different breed from me. I always used my points in Star Wars to get pips. I thought the idea of using them for temporary boost was wasteful. If I save up and build up my pips, I will have better rolls forever after instead of one good roll. I guess I have an economic veiw of experiance points.
Just my opinion. . .
Well I do not necassarily think this mechanic is a strictly narrative one, but I do see where a great many players would be reluctant to give up their points, especially if they are not a goo writer per se.
Here is my take on why this may not work out quite as expected.
First an example:
GM"Ok per Sally and Kens' excellent stories, the three of ou are standing by the cliff. Ralph, since your story is not in focus here, why don't you go ahead and get us going and the others can riff off of you."
Ralph"Sure thing. I push them both off the cliff. End of 2 Story Arcs! Woot! Thats 10xp for each story plus 1xp for using my bull rush skill. Plus hey guys, you know you really should feed me 5xp for ending your stories oh and another 5xp for ending the others and..."
Yes it is absolutely a ridiculous example. However, I have always felt that systems like the Dragongrace example create a real monster of a gamer: The Narratavist Power Gamer. I tell good stories, I have a wicked imagination, therefore I should get that extra bit of currency to empower my character so I can create even more!
In a sense it creates a gamist / competetive atmosphere, which is not a bad thing except that the focus of conflict shifts from In Game character vs man, nature, himself (or herself) to player vs player. Like competing TV shows. The crazyness of Sci-Fi channel not withstanding, if you had Farscape or Tremors the series, which would you raather watch?
So it comes to this: What is a GOOD story? What is ENDING a Story Arc?
What is GOOD background? IS good background a 2 page essay on their character? Well how about this:
Johanna was born to a poor family.
Johanna is intensely loyal to her kingdom
Johanna is sexually attracted to women, which is forbidden in her kingdom.
Three sentences that tell us all about the conflict this character has.
Now Joe (Dragonsgrace) do not take this as a knock on your games, which I find very cool btw. I applaud the idea of getting people to get involved, but not just experienced narrativists (or whatever) will be playing Dragonsgrace. It seems to me that the above system would reward a style of play that is too subjective.
Of course thats strictly my opinion :)
Sean
ADGBoss
On 5/29/2003 at 12:40pm, dragongrace wrote:
RE: DragonGrace: Experience
Emmett wrote: I would never give away my EXPs, they're too hard won. But thats just me, you narritive folks are a different breed from me. I always used my points in Star Wars to get pips. I thought the idea of using them for temporary boost was wasteful. If I save up and build up my pips, I will have better rolls forever after instead of one good roll. I guess I have an economic veiw of experiance points.
That's what I did also in star wars. But part of the point as I saw it was to have the character that could yawn at Darth Vader and Force him out of existence. You had skills that everyone had and competition is rampant. Being the best at the force was good for Jedi, best gunner for pilots, collect the most bounty for bounty hunter etc.
I see Dragongrace is a different light. Characters for the most part aren't directly compared with one another. You can create a Elven Cowboy with nothing but rodeo experience and bull wrestling, along side a hobbit housewife, along side a Dragon WoodCarver. The stories are what a player wants to create. How they fit together is part of the adventure.
Developing stories outside of your own is definately a more narrativist attitude in gaming, I will agree. Developing Story outside of character is also narrativist. Developing just Character for the sake of developing the character is (I believe) a gamist tendency.
But points are so easy to get in DragonGrace (As I currently see it) that conflict between developed characters might need that temporary boost from point expediture. It's dramatic to win a battle by a sudden desparate lunge (spending lots of points) than suddenly being the most skills swardsman in all the land from this point on out. (Narrativist thinking)
JOE--
On 5/29/2003 at 12:51pm, dragongrace wrote:
RE: DragonGrace: Experience
First an example:
GM"Ok per Sally and Kens' excellent stories, the three of ou are standing by the cliff. Ralph, since your story is not in focus here, why don't you go ahead and get us going and the others can riff off of you."
Ralph"Sure thing. I push them both off the cliff. End of 2 Story Arcs! Woot! Thats 10xp for each story plus 1xp for using my bull rush skill. Plus hey guys, you know you really should feed me 5xp for ending your stories oh and another 5xp for ending the others and..."
Yes it is absolutely a ridiculous example. However, I have always felt that systems like the Dragongrace example create a real monster of a gamer: The Narratavist Power Gamer. I tell good stories, I have a wicked imagination, therefore I should get that extra bit of currency to empower my character so I can create even more!
Hmmm... If both characters are standing on the cliff then there would have to be some colaboration and both story arcs would have already ended to create a the new joint story arc. Thus trying to shove them both off a cliff only ends a single story arc. Also it creates a character conflict which means they have a chance to spend their own points and use their own skills to stop the player from killing them. As a combined effort they may be able to move to the side and send the offending player over the cliff.
I do find the example amusing and by itself problematic, however, it may not be realistic. Also I think with any system, there will be abuses. The way to gain experience in DragonGrace is definately open for abuse. But I think with minimal effort to not try and break the system it can be used for some excellent game play.
I would feel from the above example that the Bull Rush player is perhaps somewhat gamist, boiling it down to player vs. player. Perhaps some suggested groundrules for group game play would be appropriate, such as "You can only end your own story arcs", "You can't kill another player character without their agreement", etc...
JOE--
On 5/29/2003 at 2:15pm, ADGBoss wrote:
RE: DragonGrace: Experience
Yes that certianly tightens it up a bit and I think examples of play go a long way towards showing what to do and not to do. Simple ground rules can make all the difference.
The example IS unrealistic but I always try and work from the "OK what is the most hideous thing that could hapopen to totally ruin this rule/game" because inevitably someone will try.
One suggestion I had come up with might be that when you give EXP to another player, that it turns into die roll bonues or some in game bonus that is usable by the character but does not translate into Experience directly for the other character.
per example:
Sally"I am trying to convince Count de Drake to help me find the lost magic book."
Bob"I like Sally's arc and the way she is handling it, I am going to pass her 5 EXP to ensure that she is able to convince the Count to help her."
Just an idea
Sean
ADGBoss
On 5/29/2003 at 7:01pm, dragongrace wrote:
RE: DragonGrace: Experience
per example:
Sally"I am trying to convince Count de Drake to help me find the lost magic book."
Bob"I like Sally's arc and the way she is handling it, I am going to pass her 5 EXP to ensure that she is able to convince the Count to help her."
I need to go back through and read what I have again to make sure I've written out all my ideas clearly and cleanly (one of my major problems). BUT I think this is already accounted for to some degree.
Sally wants to convince the Count to help her so she uses some trait let's say Feminine Wiles and the Count (picked up and created by the GM) has a Resistance to Charm greater than her feminine wiles. She can use points from her pool on the fly to boost her wiles and other players can contribute EXP to her to boost her further. This might be an instance where players can learn to "break the rules" and supply an adequate amount to convince the Count, rather than just 5.
But given this line of reasoning, will the aforementioned experience system ,with players willing to play by the rules, encourage narrtive roleplaying rather than gamist thinking?
JOE--
On 5/30/2003 at 5:52pm, dragongrace wrote:
RE: DragonGrace: Experience
feeling exceptionally stupid as I completely forgot to include in my online directions how one might use EXP and suggestions on comparing values (hangs head in shame)...
on the bright side however, I will be adding a lengthy section on using the EXP and while thinking on a different , perhaps more apt, label for the EXP, the idea of Grace Points came to mind.
JOE--
On 6/5/2003 at 6:07pm, dragongrace wrote:
RE: DragonGrace: Experience
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjeskiewicz/DG_SpendingGrace.html
As per the above discussion I've hacked together some what of an explanation about Grace Points (what I've been calling them) and using them as currency. I also adding a little section on Character Pools and NPCs in the context of the game. I hope it clarifies more than muddies.
JOE--