Torture. We all think it's icky, but whether a Trial by Ordeal or an attempt to gather information from a captive it was fairly common in our time period, so we can guess the same is true of TROS.

I know how to resist it, but how to do it? (Dice wise, not actually).

What skill should be used, other than intimidation. Surgery?

How would it all come together?

While I'm at it... ...jousting. Riding followed by Combat/Weapon Art? A bash attack versus a lot of armour, hoping for a knock-down?

Curious,

Doug.

There's a section in Jousting in the upcoming Of Beasts and Men.

If you do a search through this forum, you may find a thread where I outlined what the jousting rules were. Otherwise, you'll have to wait for OBAM or make up your own in the meantime :-)

Brian.

I guess that depends on what kind of torture is taking place, and what kind of scene is being created. I'm hesitant to suggest a long list of supplemental skills. Of course, depending on the form of torture, different skills may help, including surgery, intimidation, or whatever. (I'm sure people who know more about the subject can suggest more skills). It probably is some kind of roll against the victim rolling WP, but I'm not sure exactly.

Beyond that, though, you have to ask what you are looking for. In reality, to be blunt, everyone breaks under torture. The only questions are how long, whether or not the torturer is unskilled and accidentally kills him, and what condition the victim is after-wards. Now, if it is a public spectacle, maybe there is an unofficial time-limit before the authorities give up. Or maybe he needs to hold out until the cavalry arrives. I think any mechanic for torture would need a discussion on how long it takes.

Next is the question of skill. Unskilled torturers kill people slowly (or not so slow). The skilled ones (who are very, very scary) are people who can maintain life literally for days as unspeakable things are done. Now, maybe a discussion of the skill of the torturer would need to include a discussion of accidental death, but that is debatable, because few players would like the idea of their character accidentally dying because the torturer did it wrong.

And third, assuming a character survives torture, he is probably going to be messed up. Permanent disabilities from the torture are a less than nice thing. And what about the personal guilt and self-hatred about betraying his friends/ family/ faith/ country?

The reason why I am babbling on is because how it is done mechanically really depends on what you want to do. IMHO, torture by the pre-existing feel of TROS would be a horrible, horrible thing.

The only other thing I would suggest is that I would happily let torture be a potential SA-fest for the victim. If you have ever seen Braveheart, you can see at the end that William Wallace is pumping every SA he has into resisting, and getting tons back by successfully resisting. In a disturbing way, it is his finest moment when he yells 'Freedom!", the English give up, and just kill him.

In TROS, that situation means that under VERY specific circumstances, torture (like combat) can become perpetual-motion machines of SAs. However, unlike combat, the expectation of inevitable death is much more certain. If he is saved, at least the character walks away with a lot more SAs for development in lieu of a limb. If he dies, then at least his insight rating will be higher.

So, again, before you can make good mechanics, you need to ask what you want them to do. Unfortunately, this probably means a lot more detail about torture.

Right on,

I'm not sure about how to incorporate everything, but here's some definite factors I see taking part:

Torturer:

Perception- How much pain am I causing? Is this person near breaking? Am I endangering this person's life too much?

Willpower- I must not lose my temper with this person and accidentally kill them

Intimidation- Threat of pain, careful application of it

Surgery- Well, duh

Resister:

Endurance(Toughness doesn't really help here)- to withstand the long periods of pain/possible infection

Willpower- Again, duh

Perception- Is there any weaknesses/foibles about my interrogator I can exploit(See Usual Suspects as Kaizer Soze feeds the gullible cop, line after line)

Sincerity- Possible room for lying

Acting- Likewise, also faking like you're really in more pain than you are(in the hopes of not getting more)


I'd say there's probably 2 rolls involved at least...

Chris

I wouldn't say Surgery. I might allow Surgery to be a default, but not the skill operable. Very few chirurgeons spend much time studying how to cause pain without killing. Most would be concentrating on the exact opposites, causing as little pain as possible, and fixing injury, rather than causing it. However, a Torture skill would certainly be able to default from Surgery, because knowledge of the human body would be an advantage to learning how to hurt it.

Torture is a pretty horrible thing, but it does have a place in such a gritty game. I am planning a game for the Renaissance and have done some research on this as well as actual stories and Intel I picked up from people who had been tortured. Yes, I spoke with them directly.

I am not going to go into the details, as they are much more disturbing than you think. The first thing you have to think about is whether or not your torturer will use older or newer techniques.

In either case they are only different in a few minor areas, such as the technology available. Modern methods often incorporate a more refined psychological element and administration of drugs. The older methods used psychology as well, but few or no drugs.

As for the skills a torturer could use, Trade: Torture, Surgery, Intimidate, Orate, Persuaion, Ridicule, Sincerity & Theology. And that's just the mundane stuff. If you have questions, I can explain my choices, if you like.

Magically you can get pretty horrible, faster.

Right on,

Salamander, I agree that one of the most overlooked aspects of torture is the psychological aspect. That's where Perception plays a big role on the part of the victim as well as the abuser. Both are trying to read the other, to find out what they can do to either get info or reduce the amount of pain they're going to suffer. Torture and brainwashing pretty much on the same spot of actions. It's the permanent mind damage that really screws people up, more than simply the physical injuries.

Chris

Or...social... A person's ability to manipulate the social aspect of a person's mind (such as isolation, offering help or comfort to a person who's been tortured in exchange for information, etc).

Jake

Jake Norwood wrote: Or...social... A person's ability to manipulate the social aspect of a person's mind (such as isolation, offering help or comfort to a person who's been tortured in exchange for information, etc).

Jake