Topic: Half-sword questions
Started by: demiurgeastaroth
Started on: 6/7/2003
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 6/7/2003 at 3:22pm, demiurgeastaroth wrote:
Half-sword questions
Under the half-sword manoeuvre, it says: damage is Thrust +3 v armour, ATN 5 and DTN 6.
The Estoc is listed as having a length of half-sword: does the damage include the above bonus, and is there any difference between using this in half-sword grip and not in half-sword grip?
I'm also wondering, with most weapons capable of it, why you wouldn't half-sword all the time, due to the improvement in ATN (and often DTN) that it gives.
Also, is the +3 damage v armour gained limited to the value of the armour: if you half-sword against leather, do you only gain +2?
In the Half-sword manoeuvre description, it also says that to change grip in an exchange, you spend a CP and make the Reflex roll. What happens if you fail the reflex roll? Can you still attack, defend, or whatever?
On 6/7/2003 at 6:09pm, Wolfen wrote:
RE: Half-sword questions
Personally, I limit half-swording's bonus purely to plate and chain, not leather at all. The idea of half-swording is to give leverage for the thrust through highly resistant protective materials.
As for why you wouldn't want to half-sword all the time... length counts. If you're using a longer weapon, USE the length. It's a killer thing to have to fight through the length advantage of a longer weapon, giving up a die or more on every single attack. Also, As I understand it, halfswording pretty much limits the weapon to thrusting. You don't have the leverage for a proper swing, and many defenses are strong against thrusts (such as using an arming glove, or a expulsion defensive maneuver)
On 6/7/2003 at 6:37pm, demiurgeastaroth wrote:
RE: Half-sword questions
Wolfen wrote: Personally, I limit half-swording's bonus purely to plate and chain, not leather at all. The idea of half-swording is to give leverage for the thrust through highly resistant protective materials.
I think it could apply to rigid leather. One thing I've considered is to have the half-sword manoeuvre halve armour protection, rather than giving +3. (Hmm, that sentence could be less confusing!)
A related question: several weapons have damage bonuses against 'hard' armour: does this mean rigid armour (including leather), metal armour (including chain), or just plate?
As for why you wouldn't want to half-sword all the time... length counts. If you're using a longer weapon, USE the length. It's a killer thing to have to fight through the length advantage of a longer weapon, giving up a die or more on every single attack.
This doesn't seem like much of a drawback, when the ATN improves by at least 1 (and 2 for the estoc); using at at Medium length, you only suffer a -1 dice penalty against long weapons. It might be enough though.
But you might be facing people with medium weapons.
Also, As I understand it, halfswording pretty much limits the weapon to thrusting. You don't have the leverage for a proper swing, and many defenses are strong against thrusts (such as using an arming glove, or a expulsion defensive maneuver)
Is there a rule for using an arming glove anywhere? I haven't been able to find one.
Also, now that you mention it, I'm unclear on the Expulsion manoeuvre. Let's say I'm attacked by a half-sword and use Expulsion. I succeed. According to the description, my enemy suffers a penalty on thrusting attacks against me next exchange. But since I won initiative, I'm now the aggressor - he'll probably defend, and not have the penalty. So I've paid a 2 dice activation cost for nothing.
Am I missing something?
On 6/7/2003 at 8:23pm, Jake Norwood wrote:
RE: Half-sword questions
demiurgeastaroth wrote: Also, now that you mention it, I'm unclear on the Expulsion manoeuvre. Let's say I'm attacked by a half-sword and use Expulsion. I succeed. According to the description, my enemy suffers a penalty on thrusting attacks against me next exchange. But since I won initiative, I'm now the aggressor - he'll probably defend, and not have the penalty. So I've paid a 2 dice activation cost for nothing.
Am I missing something?
Against your thrusts. In other words, he loses defense dice when you thrust at him after you complete the expulsion.
Jake
On 6/7/2003 at 9:10pm, demiurgeastaroth wrote:
RE: Half-sword questions
Jake Norwood wrote:demiurgeastaroth wrote:
Am I missing something?
Against your thrusts. In other words, he loses defense dice when you thrust at him after you complete the expulsion.
Jake
Hehe - yes, I was missing something. That makes a lot more sense :)
On 6/8/2003 at 12:42am, Salamander wrote:
Re: Half-sword questions
demiurgeastaroth wrote: Under the half-sword manoeuvre, it says: damage is Thrust +3 v armour, ATN 5 and DTN 6.
The Estoc is listed as having a length of half-sword: does the damage include the above bonus, and is there any difference between using this in half-sword grip and not in half-sword grip?
I believe that the Estoc (aka; Tuck) should gain the bonuses for halfswording, in history, the Estoc was designed specifically to exploit halfswording techniques. an example of an Estoc:
http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item913.html
&
http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item913gall.html
bottom picture on the page.
I'm also wondering, with most weapons capable of it, why you wouldn't half-sword all the time, due to the improvement in ATN (and often DTN) that it gives.
One simple reason, reach. If he is still beyond the range of the Estoc in half sword, he has a large number of options available to counter, bind, hang up, more options for full/partial evasion, etc. He also has the CP advantages over you due to reach. You may think that the reduced TNs will balance this out, and it does, to an extent.
Also, is the +3 damage v armour gained limited to the value of the armour: if you half-sword against leather, do you only gain +2?
I would give it the +3 vs. leather proofness as well.
In the Half-sword manoeuvre description, it also says that to change grip in an exchange, you spend a CP and make the Reflex roll. What happens if you fail the reflex roll? Can you still attack, defend, or whatever?
I would just indicate that he failed to switch and that he is still in the mode he was in before he tried to change to/from halfsword and that he had spent the CP. The player can still attack/defend, but he has to do it from his original mode. If he botched we begin to look into whether he dropped the weapon or hung himself up or what have you.
All in all, halfswording has its place, but there is a reason why in real life these guys did not just run around forever using halfsword techniques. Halfswording is just one of the incredible number of tools in a swordsman's litany of doing unto thier fellow man.
On 6/8/2003 at 3:29am, Wolfen wrote:
RE: Half-sword questions
Demiurgeastaroth wrote: But you might be facing people with medium weapons.
Very true. In which case, you're giving up the advantage of reach.
I've done most of my duels as a man with a short sword. I thrust against an ATN of 5, which is very easy to beat. But I'm almost always at a length disadvantage to begin with. When I try to use my arming glove offensively, I'm DEFINITELY at a length disadvantage. If you want to half-sword against me, be my guest. It'll only make it easier for me.
As for arming glove, I'll give you the stats as I have them on my character sheet when I return from work in the morning. It's a weapon/armor that is mentioned in the text, but was omitted from the weapon/armor and equipment listings. I'm sure it will probably make it's way into TFoB, though.
On 6/8/2003 at 9:09am, demiurgeastaroth wrote:
Another half-sword question
If you have a fine estoc, which is optimised for attack (-1 ATN), and then you half-sword with it, does this also modify the half-sword ATN?
On 6/8/2003 at 9:18am, demiurgeastaroth wrote:
RE: Half-sword questions
Wolfen wrote:Demiurgeastaroth wrote: But you might be facing people with medium weapons.
Very true. In which case, you're giving up the advantage of reach.
Ah, but if I'm using an estoc, it has a range of "1/2-sword", so I wouldn't be giving up any reach.
This thread has gone some way towards clearing up my questions about the half-sword, what with expulsions, etc.. I still have a few lingering doubts that it may be a little too effective, but I'll wait to see how it pans out in play.
On 6/8/2003 at 2:01pm, Wolfen wrote:
RE: Half-sword questions
Hm. I suppose that is true, but an estoc is a specialty weapon designed for half-swording anyhow. I believe, from what I've seen of them, that the range is long when not being used in the half-sword mode though, which would mean that it's half-sword range would vary between medium and short, as the character wielding it chooses.
And for your edification, the arming glove.
Arming Glove
Length: Hand
ATN: 5
Dmg: ST-1 B
DTN: 6
AV: 2/4
The arming glove is essentially a heavy leather glove with chain mesh in the palm, used to catch and hold blades without injuring the hand. It is primarily used against thrusting attacks, as it is difficult to catch a swung blade without being injured. If it is used against a thrust, no damage will be done to the hand. If it is used against the hand, the AV will be used, and damage assigned to the hand as normal on a successful parry. AV 2 is for the back of the hand (when struck as a targeted location) and AV 4 is for the palm (when struck by a swinging blade in the parry).
Cost was estimated to be about equivalent to a single gauntlet.
On 6/8/2003 at 11:53pm, demiurgeastaroth wrote:
RE: Half-sword questions
Thanks - those stats have been saved.
On 1/25/2004 at 7:24am, Alan wrote:
RE: Half-sword questions
Sorry to bump an old thread, but I thought it might be a good idea to keep Half-swording questions all in one place for future searchers.
As I read the Half-Sword rules, one can shift into half-sword position on any exchange at no cost. So when does the 1cp and reflex roll come into play?
Is the difference that, with the first, you end the blow at reduced length and may suffer reach modifiers on the next exchange, while the rolled change allows you to begin and end the blow at full reach?