Recently I've realized one of my problems with the NS barrier lies in the fact that I have a tendency to design games to simulate the genre, rather than emulate it. Both Mythic Strains and Pure Shoujo (on my site in the profile) were intended to produce games which run as closely as possible to realistic comic books or shoujo anime. This is blatantly distinct from games which emulate the genre, by producing self-consistent settings from the genre mateial. One of the odd effects of this is that the genre simulation is less concerned with internal consistency, and more concerned with fulfilling the genre expectations, especially the subtle ones.

For example, in the game Mythic Strains, a character will be significantly different between stories, and the more popular variations will become longer lasting. This is not something which appears in any supers game I've seen written, but it is a definite aspect of the comic book genre.

The question at the root of this inquiry is, does Genre Simulation lie as a Narrativist Creative Agenda, or a Simulationist one. Until recently, I had assumed that it was a Simulationist goal, but recent considerations about the design of a pure GN game have me wondering.

Thank you for your time,

-Mendel S.

My understanding - way back when, this was discussed as the "Feng Shui" issue. The core question would seem to be: is the goal of play (that the design seeks to facilitate) to create, during play, a response to some kind of Premise? That Premise can be informed by the genre in consideration, but that doesn't mean the genre itself gets prioritized - the priority would remain on the Premise. If so, that would mean the play is Nar.

Or perhaps the priority IS, instead, on the genre, considered for this purpose to be some particular range of choices in the five Explored elements. Play can be considered successful regardless of whether or not a Premise is being addressed. This would be Sim play.

From a design standpoint, I guess a good genre-emulating design is generally pretty easy for a play group to Drift to either a Sim that feels like the genre or a Nar where the Premise is informed by the genre. It's probably good for a designer to know which it is he or she is most interested in (or that he wants to try to support Drifting to either), but even more than the normal "someone can use any game for any goal, if they work at it enough" phenomena, genre emulation opens up this possibility.

Of course, there are those who say emulating the genre includes addressing a Premise that's appropriate for that genre, and your Sim fails unless it also creates "story" just like Nar would but without directly working at it. That's currently seen (best as I can tell - and I'm in agreeement with the conclusion based on my own experiences) as the Impossible Thing ("we don't think about/do story, but story - Premise and all - still kinda happens")

Hope that makes at least a little sense,

Gordon

Wormwood wrote: The question at the root of this inquiry is, does Genre Simulation lie as a Narrativist Creative Agenda, or a Simulationist one.

Jack, Gordon,

Both of you bring up good points, but I'm not talking about genre emulation, I'm explicitly talking about something else, which I realized is not genre emulation. Since it lies in a similiar vein, I've called it genre simulation.

Consider this:
Super hero comic books -> Super heroes (as a media comic books relate to super heroes, they direct the reader to that context)

Super hero games -> Super heroes (as a media the game relates to super heroes, directing the players to that context)

Super hero comic book games -> Super hero comic books (the game does not direct the players towards the context of Super heroes, but rather to super hero comic books, to another medium)

The second example is genre emulation, making a context from the sample medium, and interpretting it's material into another medium.

The third example is what I'm calling genre simulation, which is making the context of the game the medium in question.

And while I'm sure both techniques can be used for any mode, this is not particularly enlightening, so can minatures and human sacrefice. What I'm asking is what mode these techniques apply themselves best in, genre emulation is clearly biased towards simulationism, but I don't think the same is true of genre simulation. I'm just looking to see what other people have to say on the matter. That, and I believe it could be a telling question.

Thank you for your time,

-Mendel S.

Hey, Mendel

Wormwood wrote: And while I'm sure both techniques can be used for any mode, this is not particularly enlightening, so can minatures and human sacrefice. What I'm asking is what mode these techniques apply themselves best in, genre emulation is clearly biased towards simulationism, but I don't think the same is true of genre simulation. I'm just looking to see what other people have to say on the matter. That, and I believe it could be a telling question.

Super hero games -> Super heroes (as a media the game relates to super heroes, directing the players to that context)

Super hero comic book games -> Super hero comic books (the game does not direct the players towards the context of Super heroes, but rather to super hero comic books, to another medium)

Jack,

Perhaps I should clarify what I mean by bias in this case, because I don't think that we disagree on this matter. If you have as your design goals genre emulation, this will more often synergize with a Simulationist mode design goal, rather than some other mode. This is because you are directing your design space towards genre emulation, which makes this likely a more supported focus of the game.

But that matter is tangent to the real question, which is about genre simulation.

Genre simulation is specifically a design approach where the both the medium and the message are translated into the medium of the RPG. This is different from the idea of genre emulation where only the message is translated. Or to put it another way, if you emulate a genre, then the game will (ideally) play as a story set in the setting (or more generally the context) of the genre, whereas if you simulate a genre the game will play as a story in that genre.

For example,

Feng Shui is not a wuxia movie game, it is a game set in a setting derived from wuxia movies. Hong Kong Action Theater is not a game set in a setting derived from wuxia movies, it's a game set as a series of wuxia movies, directly. If you play these two games, they very clearly play differently. That's the difference I am talking about. Their explored context is different, because they are not attempting the same goal with respect to the genre of wuxia. Rather Feng Shui is a wuixa emulation, while HKAT is a wuxia simulation. The design decision is subtle, but very important. Trying to mix both goals seems dangerous, and liable to cause a discordant game design.

I hope that helps,

-Mendel S.

I think I may have it but it's still fuzzy. What make Feng Shui not a Wuxia movie RPG and does make Hong Kong Action Theatre a wuxia movie game? I am still trying to understand where the distinction lies.

Jack,

It's a matter of the exploration elements which are built in the mechanics and description of the game. In HKAT, players are actors in a variety of wuxia films, however the only part played with any adherence is the actual movies. But all of the genre expectations are fulfilled (well nearly all) by the mechanics and the settings described. In Feng Shui, players are characters in an over the top world, which resembles nothing more than six sets of different hong kong action movies all tossed together and seasoned to taste. All of the elements, setting and system, are meant to relate the world and it's feel to the players. But playing feng shui almost always results in something different than an action movie. And the reason is simple, feng shui was designed to build a world for the players to play in, a world that easily could be portrayed by several hundred wuxia films at once, but it's not a wuxia movie. Feng Shui is both more and less than a wuxia movie, but it is far from ideal if you want to play a movie, rather than play in one.

I hope that helps,

-Mendel S.

Jack, I'mm still unclear on what Wormwood means here, but this is my understanding:

An 'emulation' takes exclusively Exploration elements from the genre it emulates.

A 'simulation' not only consciously replicates these Exploration elements, but also the creative agenda by which they are Explored, from source genre, regardless of whether the simulated genre is awere of its methodology or not. Thus, a mythology game might have explicit mechanics for the Hero's Journey and alternative versions of stories replacing each other, even though in real mythology we don't do that kind of thing deliberately.

As I'm understanding this - the genre simulation includes, in the Explored elements, the awareness that you are in the genre (you are actors in wuxia films), whereas genre emulation simply allows the genre to influence the Explored elements (you are like charcters from wuxia films) ? Hmm, I guess my impression is that this is a technique pretty much like other techniques in identifying, isolating and describing details about the Explored elements. You could play it up any way you want - we're actors trying to Step On Up and make better wuxia films than anyone else, we're prioritizing all the interesting details about wuxia films, actors, and what happens in that environment, or we're using that as a backdrop to some Premise that resonates for all of us (or some blend of these things, which may or may not work out well for any particular group). Depending on how you implement the technique, it might end up fascilitating one of those objectives better than the others, but fundamentally - still fairly broadly applicable.

Now, some folks who like the purity of The Dream have said that this kind of set-up makes it easier for them to do some of the OOC stuff that otherwise might be offensive (because, since they're playing actors, it's not really OOC), but others have said it just feels like a workaround instead of just handling the real issues of pure Sim play.

I'd like to see more designs that try this kind of thing - they may prove very useful for certain kinds of play. It doesn't seem like it's an entirely different kind of beastie - which I'm not sure anyone is claiming it is - but that doesn't mean it's not useful.

Gordon

Man, I'm still not getting it. Let me ask this: does genre simulation include emulation the media the genre appears in? That is, does HKAT include rules for "script rewrite" or "contract renegotiation" or "make-up!!" or "stunt double!" ?

Jack Spencer Jr wrote: Man, I'm still not getting it. Let me ask this: does genre simulation include emulation the media the genre appears in? That is, does HKAT include rules for "script rewrite" or "contract renegotiation" or "make-up!!" or "stunt double!" ?

Thanks, John.

Then I stand by my original post that it can appear across the GNS modes. It sounds like Color to me.

Jack Spencer Jr wrote: Thanks, John.

Then I stand by my original post that it can appear across the GNS modes. It sounds like Color to me.

Overview:

The way I see it, there's a fair amount of good discussion on different aspects of genre simulation, but I don't think I've managed to related the extent of the approach. Mostly, genre simulation includes several different goals, and several different levels.

The following would all be genre simulation, at least to my mind:

Having a predetermined comedic role, and avoiding the temptation to make that roll effective, even for other players.

Building in explicit inconsistencies due to the one's present in the genre. Such as the wildly varying power of superheros in comics versus in RPGs.

A mechanic that permits characters to narrate a flashback, as a valid combat action.

Reward players for changing the emotional states of characters rapidly, for a high strung relationship drama.

Force predetermined, or mostly predetermined dialogue onto NPC's, for simulating CRPGs.

Some of these may be overt, some covert, in either case the ultimate goal is to merge the resulting play with the experience of the media and content, not merely the content of the media.


Shreyas,

Yes, I do think that applying the media's creative agenda is a form of genre emulation, but not necessarily the only form. It is, however, one of the more interesting. The only other major concern, is that to my mind, the real test of genre simulation is the resulting play. Hence sometimes the game needs covert methods, which are not always applicable as creative agends. (i.e sometimes you cause players to do things, without them knowing the reasons, because that knowledge would actually work less effectively.)


Gordon,

This element is certainly a part of genre simulation, but not a full description. Admittedly it's very aptly described in HKAT. I also concur that this particular addition doesn't seem to have much of a bias, although, to my mind it is slightly less preferred by Simulationism, simply because dreams of the real world tend to be less engaging. For example, in HKAT it was heavily leaned towards the Gamist goals of the game, i.e. accumulation of Star Points.

I also concur, that it's a very interesting design element. I'm hoping to add a few games down that alley at some point, although when is always a question.


John,

Thanks for the examples.


Well, I hope that clarifies things a bit, thanks for your input though, it is helping me get a sense for the origin of this line of questioning, how to classify the actual play of Pure Shoujo. And so far it is looking like a fully GNS congruent game. More on that later.

Thank you for your time,

-Mendel S.

Gordon C. Landis wrote: Well, I agree it can appear in all modes, but I'd say it is a bit more than Color - it tells you about the Charcater (an actor), the Situation (,aking wuxia films), and etc.

Maybe I'm wrong, the the distinction I'm hearing is something like this:

• Emulation: You're a superhero, like they have in comic books, but it's different because this isn't a comic book but a role playing game. Think of the difference between the Superman comics and the television shows, cartoons, and movies, and you're on the right track.• Genre Simulation: You're a superhero in a comic book, and everything about the way this game is played should feel like you're in the comic book.


Is that right?

--M. J. Young

M.J.

Well, I'd say, more than just feel like a comic book, but also should appear as such to the outside or retro-active observer. Essentially the play entire should match that of a comic book, but the internal feel won't be like that of reading a comic book, per say, since it's more a conglomeration of reading, writting, and perhaps even drawing one (on some level). The point is adherence to the comic book as media, and not as simply subject matter.

The concern I have is that this seems less biased towards the mode of simulationism. I'm still uncertain in what sense it pushes towards other modes, but I suspect that it frequently can do so. (By pushing I mean lends itself as a design technique to support certain modes more directly.)

But yes, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head, at least for overt forms of genre simulation. Covert forms seem to be difficult for most people to accept, but that seems to be a general trend here. The idea of a covert design principle is in some ways contrary to the ideals of the Forge, although I feel it is a valid enough approach to merit discussion. However, as a concept it is unnecessary to discuss the potential bias of genre simulation.

Thank you for your time,

-Mendel S.

I'll tell you, Mendel, I keep looking at this, which I guess guess could be broken down to media simulation or emulation (to keep it straight with Simulationism), and I have the question of: to what end? I personally feel it's mostly a matter of coloring the proceedings because what does separate super heroes and comic book super heroes? That's cool, though. Hell if you need my worthless approval, right?

does Genre Simulation [media emulation?] lie as a Narrativist Creative Agenda, or a Simulationist one.

Jack,

It seems to me that you're begging the question on this. You first state that there is no difference between genre emulation and genre simulation (media emulation, I don't like this term as much, because it implies a lack of emulation of the genre.) Or at least none that you percieve. Then you come to the conclusion that that means that a prioritized genre simulation is, like genre emulation, simply Simulationism.

I have direct experience that the later conclusion is false, which indicates to me that the assumption, that genre emulation = genre simulation, is faulty. I've written several genre simulation games, I've observed the play, and I see characteristically that when genre simulation is prioritized the result is not always Simulationism, at times it is characteristicly Narrativist, sometimes it even seems Gamist. Unfortunately, I have not been able to gather enough evidence of this effect.

For example, in the genre simulation of a super hero comic, one of the elements is the fact that characters are highly interpretive, lacking many of the strong point-wise descriptions in most superhero games. As such, the interpretations change organically over time, as they do in the comic book media. Also those interpretations change depending on the current "plot arc". This seems to me to be a very solid Narrativist element, namely enhancing the thematically appropriate influence of a character on the game play. I see this as gaining elements of creative agenda from the media, by emulating that media, as it is used, not simply as details about the media.

Thank you for your time,

-Mendel S.

Well, at first I wasn't quite sure what you were getting at with genre simulation. I think the terms are getting a bit much here. What you call genre simulation seems to contain emulation of both the genre (e.g. super heroes) and media (e.g. comic books). The point of the distinction is that the genre is not the medium. see Love & Rockets, EC horror comics, etc. But, upon reflection, by saying genre simulation you are combining genre and media emulation at the same time, preferably a genre in a commonly found medium so that there is something to emulate.

Does this make sense?

Jack,

That is essentially correct, the one major clarification I would make is that the genre emulated is not the original genre (which ever that may be), but rather as it is viewed through the lens of the media emulated. This is a fairly critical part of the simulation, but also manages to be fairly subtle. It also seems to be the point where the non-simulationist support derives.

Thank you for your time,

-Mendel S.