Hello.

A few days ago, I suggested there should be a separate thread to discuss the issues involving Taveruun as a whole because the other thread was becoming focused on the provinces. Mike then said more or less, 'good idea, get to it.'

There are a lot of things already written. I'm going to work off the assumption that people here have read the book, and are familiar generally with the other thread. I'm saying this because I don't want to restate things like the relations with nearby countries, my proposed timeline, the ethnicities already written by us, etc. I'm not planning on making archaic citations; I just wanted to avoid being redundant. I'll also be using ideas first mentioned by Mike, Gary, and Morfedel. I won't cite as I go, not because I'm claiming this is all mine, but because I don't think we need to be that territorial about who has done what. We all know this is a group effort.

This thread has two goals: to identify the concepts that are understood best at the country level of analysis, and to then propose a form for those concepts. Feel free to comment in every way about what I write.


POLITICS
We know so far that Taveruun is a feudal state with no king, the top of the hierarchy being instead 8 highlords. This is an extremely decentralized form of government. The fact that everyone on the other thread (myself included) made the assumption that the highlords are more 'of the province,' and not, say, permanently at a council in the capital, makes things even more decentralized.

So, if we can't look to a central government for unity (like we can in Gelure, Xanarium, Otamarluk, or even Cyrinthmeir by comparison), what can we turn to? Well, the Taveru culture is the biggest answer I see. Taveru is the dominant culture, and it was in charge - with support from Xanarium to sustain it - from 590 WEYR to 1360 WEYR. 770 years of uninterrupted rule by the same group... probably with relatively stable borders.

This doesn't mean there isn't diversity. Considering its diverse neighbors and long borders, the culture of Taveruun will inevitably be "Taveru + ___." In the North, it is Cyrinthmeir. West, Helena. Southwest, Dardenet. South, Numeria. And the east... well, the East probably has a lot of issues involving cultural/religious purity against the Sultan. (And no, I doubt they will see any separation in culture & religion). So there is definitely an ethnic identity at work. In the south, the ethnicity is probably the weakest, based on what Mike wrote. And the north, with its political schemes, is probably feels the least reflexive solidarity (Though the Taveru of Komas still see themselves as Taveru... just in a better situation than those poor people in the plains).

So...
* Things to keep in mind about the politics of Taveru nationally: strong, centralized government is rare at best. Government instead rests upon the assumption that the ruled are Taveru. When that assumption isn't true, things get tense.

* Things we need to work on politically on the national scale: We need to know how the Highlords meet, and what they talk about. How autonomous are the individual highlords at ruling their own lands, making their own armies, and making their own treaties and relations with the outside world? How is national defense dealt with? How much conflict is there between the highlords, and why is it at that point and not more or less?


ECONOMY / GEOGRAPHY
We know that Taveruun is a sprawling country with tons of resources. We also know the sultan of Otamarluk has been at war with Dardanet for a century, the economy is starting to suffer a little. Third, we know there is a lot of trade and cultural mixing. Fourth, we know that the Taveru are known for their 'urban lifestyle.'

This tells me that Taveruun is a land of extreme differences in population density. Farrenshire is a country of pasture and manors over rolling hills. That ain't Taveruun. In Taveruun, you have a river valley full of farms. Somewhere among the farms, there is a town or a city where a lord of middling power resides. Imperial roads go up and down the rivers, and occasionally off in other directions toward other towns. Beyond this relatively urban environment there is unsettled wilderness. If Taveruun was always sparsely populated, it makes sense that this distant land would only attract settlers to the river valleys, which can support a ton of population anyway. To reason to go out to the true wilderness.

This explains a lot. It explains why Otamarluk can move across the width of Taveruun without annihilating it: the population is relatively easy to sidestep. It explains how a large country can have an urban lifestyle, tons of resources, and NOT be the most feared power in the region (unrealized utilization of resources). It explains why Taveruun is called the land of winding rivers: not only are there some good-sized rivers, but that is what Taveruun is centered on. It also explains the superstitiousness of the people, but I'll get to that later.

The North has three cities and highland valleys that are total hicks (to the point of heresy). The south have raiders, less than standard religious practices, and 1 growing urban center. The east has... forts.

So...
* What needs to be remembered: the dichotomy between urban and rural.

* What we need to work on: The details of that in the different provinces


MILITARY
All types of fun. Taveruun has a lot of potential, some of it realized. However, between the unsettled wilderness and the decentralized government, it is a sleeping giant at best. To be sure, though: Taveruun isn't a push-over. If it wasn't for Otamarluk, it'd probably be the badass of northwest Maraiah.

But, Otamarluk does exist, and is, according to the book, the most powerful nation in the world. Taveruun became part of Xanarium in 590, and probably soon after protected itself effectively from raids from the east. Things escalated as Otamarluk became devout to the Seven Vows and centralized under a Sultan and a High Cleric, while Taveruun got more and more support, leading eventually to the Crusades.

And then, Xanarium left. I'm quite sure the nobles of Taveruun would have preferred Xanarium stay strong & be part of it. So now, Taveruun has been coasting for 107 years, long enough for Otamarluk to decide its loss of strength is real, and to prepare something much more terrible than a raid or a strike on Dardanet. He has a crusade all his own coming. This can hardly be a surprise for the Taveru, and I am sure they are preparing and praying. But Otamarluk's army is twice as big, at least as well armed, centrally commanded, and has by now a decent knowledge of some of the best places to invade Taveruun. All but the most optimistic Taveru is unable to see anything but uncertainty. And this all begins sometime this year. Goody.

Now, up till now, Otamarluk wasn't interested in killing off Taveruun, and it knew it. This allowed individual Highlords to have their fun, be it border wars with Numeria or a fool's errand for a port on the inland sea. That'll be changing, though.

So...
* What we need to remember: Taveruun is a respectable military power. Otamarluk is bluntly its superior. Taveruun is about to begin a defensive war for its life. Wee.

* What we need to work on: Is there a national army? What are the Taveru good at when it comes to fighting? I'm sure different highlords' militaries are different in substantial ways. What are those ways?


RELIGION
One interesting thing is the way we've been reading Taveruun, there is clear evidence that Xanar was here himself with his army. The statue, for example, must have pre-dated the Xanarian Empire acquiring Taveruun because if they build it, they would have known who the woman was instead of making guesses. I'm sure any odd non-Church Xanar worship was crushed soon after Xanarium arrived (or got sucked into another heresy, like Esaulnism, Hellenic Paganism, or whatever). This is an absoutely devout country, on average. We have to remember the Church, not the military, brought Taveruun into the empire. Any other religious tradition is a localized affair. The Church is probably the state religion. And while no one has talked about it yet, there should be at least 1 province the Church bluntly pushes around. I'll probably do that for the Northwest.

Time for me to pull stuff out of nowhere: Taveru religion and that in Xanarium is different. It has to be. Totally different culture, Xanarium probably sees itself as Xanar's Chosen, while Taveruun are willing converts. While both accept the Good Law of Xanar (This is a religion based at its core in following Divine Law), they'll have a different orientation to it. The spectacular conversion experience in Taveruun's history probably gives them a notion of turning away from the law of the Great Betrayer (which does not make Man great) to the Good Law of Xanar. Wrapped up in this is also a bit more emphasis on the spirit of law, which would allow for more mysticism. More mysticism can also help encourage more monasticism, which Taveruun certainly has.

So...
* What to remember: Religion is a big, big deal in a very direct way.
* What to work on: The role of monks and monasteries, The influence of the church on the nobility


MAGIC & THE FEY
Whoa boy. The fact that this is a relatively "civilized" country (talk about loaded terms...), is deeply religious, but at the same time is extremely superstitious about things that go bump in the night, tells me something. It tells me that there is an active magical presence in this country, and it has some level of antagonism with the population (or vice versus).

This also works well with the urban/rural split of Taveruun. The most remote parts of the wilderness will constantly be rumored by the realm of the Fey. Mountain Kings, wood demons, a whole host of critters lurking beyond the places Man's rule is established. How much of this is true or accurate is another question, but the population will not be keen on venturing out and about. The book implies vampires are part of their lore as well.

Magic is a bit different, as Sorcerers are, on average, human. Considering that The Church is severely anti-magic, things are probably less than friendly around. However, with a country as big as Taveruun, it'd be easy enough for a few magically inclined people to hide away, studying their Art. The counter-crusade is an interesting wrinkle. I could easily see a few Highlords seeking out whatever they can as an equalizer against Otamarluk. And well... a sorcerer could do just that, be he a walking siege engine or a diviner or whatever. Generally speaking, though, human magic use is still looked down on upon, on average.

(And my 2 cents about the term diplomancer: I like the term, but I like it more for Unknown Armies. This is PURELY my opinion, but I don't think it works as a common term within the setting feel of Weyrth. It would work as a half-joke a certain sorcerer uses to describe himself, however.)

So...
* What to remember: 95% of Taveruun agrees: "Magic Baaad! ...And scary."

* What to work on: Taveruun folklore on what lurks in the wilderness, the relationship between the few wizards that are in Taveruun and its supernatural denizens.


AT any rate... that's what I have. Comments? Additions? Problems?

The biggest problem I have is that I don't have a finished ideal of Taveru culture. I've got parts like religion and superstition, but its not complete. I have a better idea of Stahl or Farrenshire than I do Taveruun.

I have a few comments.

I really think that Sorcerers would be universally hated and feared, for the following reasons:



• The Imperial Church, as noted, is a BIG deal here, and sorcery is a BAD thing in their eyes.
• The people here are naturally superstitious folk, and paranoid as well.
• Sorcery is an extremely rare gift; remember, roughly 1 in 10,000 people.



These add up to Sorcery, along with fey, being blamed for much unexplained things going wrong; and in a religious context, such people are to be burned anyway.

The best I can see sorcery is a kind of Merlin role; a mysterious, wise man with unknown abilities meddling with affairs from the shadows.


The second issue involves the wall: I think we have conflicting views, but additionally, I am a bit conflicted with Otamarluk and their crossing over to Dardanet; to an extent, I wondered if Jake made a mistake and was thinking they shared a border when he wrote that, and then didn't draw the map to match.

Otherwise, if Otamarluk is so powerful, and if Taveruun is so firmly allied to the Church, why don't they just try and take out Taveruun first, and then head into Dardanet? Taveruun is in the way, and it seems rather illogical to go around them just to hit the further out of reach Dardanet.

And also, with the wall, I have trouble accepting the idea that the wall is just for show, for the following reasons: their economy is rocky, they are tight on food and weapons, and yet they are spending money on the wall. They seem to truly believe it will be effective.

I think this is a good point for Jake to chime in: Jake, what was your view on what the wall of Taveruun is like? You must have had some idea in mind....

Finally, I think the idea of centralized government is easily handled by the church. Remember, the ties of Taveruun the old Imperium is via the church; I'm thinking, what if the eight high lords got together under the auspices of the greatest of the marvelous cathedrals in the country, and is officiated by the Highest Priest, who also gets a tiebreaker vote, when needed?

Anyway. Just some thoughts. I don't want to get started on my region, the southeast, until we have some clearer concepts in mind. I obviously didn't 100% agree with some of the ideas presented, and not everyone agreed with mine. So, I'll wait for us to get some clear concensus before moving foward.

I think the wall is mostly a collection of outposts and trenches--things that are annoying to cross, but not perfectly inhibitive (is that a word?). The forts are another matter, but more often than not the Marluks are just trying to get through Taveruun either on their way to Dardanet, or to romp about the deeper countryside (the tatars raided much of eastern europe this same way by simply ignoring castles and not attacking them). Remember also that if the Otmarluk Sul'taan doesn't even reckognize Taveruun as a separate state he probably has considerable support from somewhere on the inside.

Jake

Howdy.

Morfedel, I think we agree when it comes to sorcery. I don't think I depicted magic as being popular in Taveruun by any stretch... The closest I came was saying that nobles who wanted to beat Otamarluk at any price would possibly be interested in magic. I'm sure there are a few nobles who are sympathetic to that, and I am sure there are more than a few Taveru wizards, but magic is certainly seen by the population is bad, evil, & scary, be it a human magician or a Fey of some form. What are your other points of disagreement?

As for the wall.... I haven't touched that issue myself. Personally, I'll defer to Jake, for equal parts 'it's his game' and 'makes a lot of sense to me.'

The Church as a tie-breaker makes sense to me, though it is still just part of the whole scene involving the Church and the government.

I forgot or didn't know that the Sultan doesn't see Taveruun as a legitimate country. That makes things interesting. As for the help inside, maybe it is out-and-out traders, maybe there is a small but illegal movement for the Seven Vows (be it within the cities or the rural areas).

So far, it seems the biggest issue of debate is the form the fortifications against Otamarluk take. I honestly don't know enough about history or military history to be much help on that subject.

The PBS show Warrior Challenge had an episode on Roman legionaries which took place at a reconstructed mile fort on Hadrian's wall. As I recall, it has some great shots of the wall as well, showing how it varies in height and efficacy. There's also a good description of it here at the National Heritage site:

http://www.hadrians-wall.org/about.htm

It would make a great locale for a campaign; I can't wait to see what you guys come up with for it.

And yeah Jake, inhibitive is a word. And the distinction you make is a good one, in that it is inhibitive rather than prohibitive.

I am willing to concede on the actual make up of the wall, I think that we have bigger fish to fry, and my vison of the wall is not that much different to Jake anyway. A ditch and a road, with a fair amount of wall and a number of forts and fortress. Oh and a lot of knights and soldiers.

Mike, do you want to make a editorial clarification to help us move on to more substantial content?

Nick:

I guess my one protest concerning magic was the Diplomancers. I didn't think it would fit the theme of magic in the world in general, and Taveruun in particular.

I agree with you, however, that desperate nobles might turn to any sorcerous aid they can find - which presents an interesting opportunity. Imagine if they found a sorcerer who was willing to help, but had a price....

As a side note, I actually was working on my region, and planned to integrate the idea of a sorcerer playing his merlin to my region's arthur. So, you see, I have no protests against sorcerers - it was just the idea of any guild operating inside the Taveruun borders.



As for the fortifications issue, now that Jake has signed in with his vision of it, that gives us more to consider - it doesn't really sound that impressive or effective, AND they are ignoring them anyway, in order to hit Dardanet.

So, here is a question: other than the occasional raids, are they even paying much attention to Taveruun? I'm beginning to get the impression that maybe they aren't - or rather, before our so-called Year One here, they hadn't, but that's about to change?

Morfedel wrote: I guess my one protest concerning magic was the Diplomancers. I didn't think it would fit the theme of magic in the world in general, and Taveruun in particular.

Morfedel wrote: As for the fortifications issue, now that Jake has signed in with his vision of it, that gives us more to consider - it doesn't really sound that impressive or effective, AND they are ignoring them anyway, in order to hit Dardanet.

Gary_Bingham wrote:

Morfedel wrote: I guess my one protest concerning magic was the Diplomancers. I didn't think it would fit the theme of magic in the world in general, and Taveruun in particular.

Okay! Okay!
I'll ditch the term Diplomancer. Sheesh! Is it only my stuff you guys don't like? *

Though for the record, the whole point of this small group of individuals was to use magic but more often mundane subterfuge in a subtle and clandestine manner. The power behind the thrones of the old empire.

Rare individuals, powerful but unseen magics, secret societies, and Old World meddling in New World affairs. Someone tell me why this doesn't fit with with Weyrth or Taveruun.

I don't think the wall, even as Jake described it is unimpressive, ineffective or ignored. No invasion force is going to leave a sizeable army behind their lines to raise havoc with lines of communication and supply. If the wall contains the Marmaluks to just raiding, it is a very successfull venture. Think, even if the wall was complete and a mile tall, would it be effective against keeping the Marmaluks out? No, I say they would invade Sarvastra and come in that way. So are you going to wall off Sarvastra too? No diplomatically that would be a disaster for potential trade partnerships.

* Only joking keep the comments coming :)

Morfedel wrote: I almost missed your little note at the bottom. Whew! :)
Becaue, in my mind's eye, sorcerers are SO rare that I wouldn't think that an organization of any kind would really happen.

On the wall issue, Jake has already sounded off.

OK, sorry to be gone over the weekend. Time to catch up.

On the timeline issue. I'm siding with Gary on this one. Not that the region wouldn't have been called Taveruun, prior to his dates, but that the current incarnation of the government would have been said to have been established at the later date. Governments change over time, and three centuries is actually a long time. Taveruun would be old at three centruies. No country lasts a thousand years undisturbed. Essentially if you want it to be realistic it has to be more complex than most RPG supplements usually make the situation.

On the overall issue of Ottamarluk. First, I included the Marluk opinion in the merchant's tale. That is, I mention the time issue above, because at some point and time, the Marluks had some claim on the land of some sort. Doesn't even have to have been substantial. But enough that they have the attitude. I agree that there are probably factions or at least grassroots support in places in Taveruun for the Ottamarkluk invasion. I'm thiniking the North East especially. It does mention that someone is paying tribute. My thought is that this is likely the NE, and possibly the East as well. Or perhaps the East, sensing invasion has cut off payments.

The will to war on neighboring nations has to be strongly motivated, or it does not happen. The idea that Ottamarluk would take over Taveruun just because they probably could have at some point is misguided. They're are always catalyzing events that cause these things. As the history of this world would have it, that time is now as part of the overall Counter-Crusade.

On the subject of Ottamarluk and Dardanet, I'm going to assume it's an accurate statment, and explain it. And it's not hard. I've explained this before, but Renaisance warfare was nothing like modern warfare. Armies were nowhere near as large as they can be. This is due to a lot of societal and technical limits, but suffice it to say that armies to not fight along "fronts". They are instead points of power that are maneuvered about.

As such, I have no problem with the idea that the Marluks have just been marching across Taveruun regularly over the last century to do war with Dardanet. The Turks did this constantly in the same period in RL Europe. Nick implies that they avoid the populace, but that's probably inaccurate. Normally the MO is to go from town to town on your way and take all their food. Otherwise feeding an army is nigh impossible.

But, you say, wouldn't that raise the ire of the country? Funny though it sounds, no, it wouldn't. Yes, the local lords might get uppity about it, but there's likely nothing they can do about it. Their 1/8th of the total forces of the country probably can't take on the whole Ottamarluk army which we know is probably twice the size of it altogether (no lord can attack at 1 to 16 odds).

But, you say, wouldn't the other lord's come to the defense of their neighbors? Funny though it sounds, no, they wouldn't. This is a feudal society. Largely these things are considered the local lord's problem. Looked at their way, the Marluks aren't there to take over, so why bother trying to stop them? That'll only make you weaker when you have to defend yourself against an actual take over thrust. Even if all the forces of Taveruun came, they'd still lose, and they know it. And such an assault would cause the Marluks to then take over. So nobody has made any bones about the depredations of their passinng over the country. Welcome to the realities of renaisance life.

Feudal society makes formation of armies very difficult. There are no "national" armies. Each lord keeps a certain small number of men under arms for his purposes, but the mass of most armies are made from peasant levies. Basically such societies don't produce enough surplus wealth to have standing armies of any size. And given no King, there's no central army at all. This is very much like many areas of Europe in the renaisance. Notably all of what is today Germany and Italy. Lots' of small polities each with their own agenda, and only loosely allied. The Holy Roman Empire was almost not worth mentioning as a unifying force in Germany for example. I'll get back to this in a bit.

The key fact, here, however, is that the Suul'taan has figured out a system that does allow for a standing army. The two to one ratio refers to total manpower in the country. But it doesn't account for the relative efficiencies of the systems. If the Marluks are anything like the Turks (and I have to use that as a reference point), they have this feudal system that's much more centralized. Essentially rather corrupt officials are put in charge of territory based on them being able to squeeze it hard enough to produce enough wealth to ensure that a larger portion of the manpower available can be produced in times of war, and larger numbers can be kept under arms at all times. So that 2:1 ratio converts to something probably more like a 4:1 ration when the shit hits the fan (sounds like a lot, but compared to, say, the Chineese, even these guys were amatures).

Now, when there's an all out war coming, will the nobles of Taveruun ally? Probably to some extent. But a lord who finds himself not on the path between Ottamarluk and the other Imperial realms may deign only to send money as his contribution. Especially if they remember how they were left defenseless when the Marluks trampled their territory on the way to Dardanet. I see the upcoming war as more like a 10:1 in most places in favor of the Ottamarluks.

Anyhow, so why doesn't the wall stop them? Because these sorts of walls are completely ineffective in the long run. I happen to know a lot about this subject. Walls are built for exactly the reasons that Nick said. They are a statement, and more to prevent raiding and such (horses are hard to get over walls), than to prevent actual invasions. The Great Wall was built theoretically to keep out the Mongols. It was so ineffective that the Mongols ruled China for a long time after it was built, as it happens.

They do serve as early warning systems, however. That is, if an army is coming, usually they'll be detected at the wall, and message can be sent to form an army to meet the foe. I assume that Gary's story was of a city that formed up it's defense after the invading army was sighted at the wall.

I ascribe to Jake's descrtiption of the wall, however, not just because he's Jake, but because China had the most massive manpower working on this project ever. Read that again: more people worked on the Great Wall of China than any other single project in the history of the world. In rough terms there were about a million people building it at a given time, another million watching those people, and the rest of the population (only a few more million) of China doing nothing but providing food and services for the effort. Taveruun probably doesn't even have that manpower, much less the ability to organize it. In any case, knowing that such a wall is absurd, and mostly a statement, the people building the wall for an actuall fight would make it locally strong at important points. Basically think of it as a chain of forts. These can individually be effective.

It's good for the Marluks that they'll have those 10:1 odds, because of this, however. Because if they didn't they'd be likely unable to take Taveruun cities and forts without siege. And they're going to need to do so. If they intend to be in Xanaruim, or even half way there before a couple of years have passed, they're going to have to be able to take cities by assault. And if you want to do that without incurring massive casualties, you need about 10:1. Even at that rate, casualties will occur, and that will attrit their numbers.

Worse, in any campaign, your numbers are attritted by other considerations as well. Defection increases as time goes by. Food and disease become more of a problem the farther from home you get. And they have to go through a few more countries after Taveruun before they get to their goal. So they're going to have to bring the whole enchilada. Which means that unless they get some sort of coalition support from the other Imperial nations, it's going to be just a question of how large a roadbump Taveruun provides on the way to Xanaruim. Once again, if Taveruun weren't Imperial, I'm sure they'd just march through it relatively unmolested, and continue on. It's only because they see Taveruun as an ally of the Empire that they're going to smack it at all on the way as a way to secure their rear (and rectify the "ownership" problem once and for all).

Does that clarify a vision for what's going on?

Smaller points here:
On Sorcery. I agree that sorcerers will be as underground as possible in Taveruun (for all the reasons listed), and that Guilds will be rare if they exist at all. Rare enough that we ought to leave that to GMs to add. That said, rules are meant to be broken, and nothing hilights a vaccuum like an exception.

The economy is not "rocky", it's merely being absorbed by things like the wall fortifications.

The Church probably does act as a centralizing agent to an extent, but again, I don't see it constituting a goverment or anything. It merely keeps Taveruun one big feudal federation. One thing we have to keep in mind are Fealty ties, and that hasn't been expanded upon. I don't see the Highlords as equals (that's rare no non-existent in feudal societies). I do see them sitting in conclave occasionally, however. A "Council of Highlords" or somesuch.

Nick, your stuff about the Urban/Rural is cool. Considering that most countries are predominantly Rural, the presence of those valley towns, and whatnot are what makes Taveruun so "Urban". I see this as a primary strength of the country. It's rather "industrialized" overall in that it probably produces lots of goods.

Taveru military might will probably be in it's chivalry. Knights are still the Feudal lords best troops, and quite effective on the field of battle. The problem is the cost of maintaining knights. They are, therefore, rare. This is why I proposed the non-noble cavalry. Kinda knights-light. OTOH, about half the Ottamarluks will be armed this well, so they're also stopgap.

Sorry that all jumps around so. I'm trying to cover as much territory as possible.

Mike

Gary_Bingham wrote:

Morfedel wrote: I almost missed your little note at the bottom. Whew! :)
Becaue, in my mind's eye, sorcerers are SO rare that I wouldn't think that an organization of any kind would really happen.

What I think we have here is different viewpoints. All I guess that means is that we are going to have very different campaigns. Vive la diference!

But there is a precedent set by the rulebook. Take a look at the adventure hooks in the Seneshal chapter for a reference to a secret society dedicated to magic. Note also that this is a society of intellectuals.

Ok Mike, I can go with that in all areas except for this one thing:

The economy is not "rocky", it's merely being absorbed by things like the wall fortifications.

Economically, it is beginning to destabilize the country, though they are not considered poor.

Morfedel wrote: Ok, maybe rocky economy was a bit strong, but I think you can see my point that they are beginning to feel the stress of their situation on an economic standpoint.

ok...

Well, to answer your question, Mike, yes, this does clarify things.

Oh, yeah... heh heh... not that we NEED more reasons to have Otamarluk counter-crusading, but I found one in the book earlier today: The Prophet of the Seven Vows was given Xanar's Shard as well as the wisdom of the Seven Vows from an angel sent by The Three. While that is interesting, the real relevant point is that he did this in circa 100 WEYR on the shore of the Sea of Fallen Gods. Now, Otamarluk does't have a border anywhere near that sea. I'm guessing that fact is part of the rhetoric somewhere. 'they wanted the shard, now we want the cave where the angel spoke!' or somesuch


Other reactions I had to what you said, Mike:

1) I agree with Gary & everyone else about the timeline & the fact I originally didn't give Otamarluk enough historical presence. I'll fix that; I'll have a new outline up sometime tonight.

2) Flowing out of the first, I'll be revising Komas in the North a little bit.

And this is my point: I don't think its semantic, because there was a specific note made to point this out about the economy. I am one of those that believes that when someone makes a specific point to, well, point something out, there is a reason for it.

But as we have generally seen that I am the minority in my viewpoints, thats fine. As I have just said on the other thread, since my viewpoint is apparently too divergent from everyone elses, and as I do not want to be a source of strife, I'll withdraw from the project and let you find someone else who will work more harmoniously with the rest of you.

What? Stay on, man. If there are three people in a room and they all agree, then you don't need two of them.

Jake

As we have been heavy in discussion and light in content over the last couple of days, I thought that I would redress the balance by posting on the crusades in a little more detail than we have seen in the rulebook. This period of history is especially important to the region and I feel that any netbook or supplement would be incomplete without such a history.

Whilst I will need to edit the text below when I get back within reach of a rulebook I thought that it would do no harm to let you guys take a look at it. It also forms a background for the counties we have detailed so far, as wel as dropping seeds for a couple of others as well. As usual I am completely willing to change any or all of the detail to match with your individual visions.

Anyways let me know what you think.

Political History of Taveruun

The First Crusade
Taveruun has been a amalgam of independent and semi-independent states since it’s inception during the first Crusade for the Shard in W1000. Dardanet was assailed by a Marmaluk army during the summer of W997 and was almost overrun. The Ruler of Dardanet made a plee for military assistance to Xanarium, and in W999 a crusade against the Followers of the Prophet was declared. The call was answered by Cyrinthmeir and Helena, however The Seat of the Xanarian Empire sent the largest contingent made up from the Imperial legions and a large number of nobles seeking gold and glory.

The Cyrinthmeirian army was the first to claim victories against the Vowist forces in the north, striking across the mountainous northern border to take the three major cities of the Komas region. The Duchy of Komas was formed and recognized by the Emperor as a vassal province of the Xanarian Empire. The important and imposing port city of Dar-Es-Kallyrii was the next to fall to the crusaders, the combined armies of Xanarium and Helena besieged the city for 18 months before it finally fell and this delay is often cited as the reason for the failure of the first crusade. When the Xanarian general declared the Kingdom of Kallary for the Seat of the Xanarian Empire, the Hellenic contingent struck out north into the gold and silver rich mountainous region to claim their spoils.

The Second Crusade
Dardanet was again the spark, which brought Holy fire to the Land of the Taveruu. When Dardanet expanded their border to encompass the coastline south of the Kingdom of Kallary, The emperor was furious with the Dardani for breaking the agreement made during the First Crusade, and called for another crusade against the Vowists. The crusaders conveniently for the Emperor landed south of Kallary and headed inland. Dardanet quickly fell back to it’s original borders and allowed the massive army to pass along the northern frontier. Weakened by the ravages of the first crusade the armies of the Followers of the Prophet where easily overrun and the second crusade pushed the imperial borders all the way to the ancient port city of Illitzi on the Bay of Saphire. The County of Illitzi was formed in the final throes of the Second Crusade. It is notable that the knight Arlyman Beggarman made his name during the storming of the port city and was known as the Hero of Illitzi after that day.

The Third and Fourth Crusade
The spurred by the success of the second crusade, two more crusader armies surged across the Taveruu first from the Duchy of Komas in the North and then from the County of Illitzi in the South. The story goes that the Emperor intended a single Crusade combining the forces in a similar manner to the First crusade. However the Cyrinthmeirian faction mobilized long before the Xanarium army could make it’s way to Illitzi, and surged southward alone. The Suul’taan of Otarmaluk had assembled a large army to meet the threat and the third crusade proved disastrous and ended with the remnants of the Cyrinthmeir army besieged in the Vowist fortress on the hill which would later become the capital of Taveruun. The mainly Xanarian fourth crusade came to the rescue of Castle Longstone and drove the Suul’taan armies all the way back to the Galadonian River. The Baronry of Galadon was claimed for the Empire.

Later Crusades
After a lull as the Empire recovered from the toll of the first four incursions, a number of further crusades were called to retrieve the Shard for the Church of the Three-In-One, which at that time was thought to be held in the Fortress of the Seven Djinns in central Otamarluk. History brands these crusades as failures as neither territory nor the Shard was claimed for the Empire. But many riches were won in the deserts beyond the Galadonian river, and it’s was only when Helena and Dardanet ceded from the Empire that the crusades ceased. During the period of the later crusades the Empire imposed a more rigid structure on the crusaders states, forming the compass counties and installing the heads of the crusader states as Highlords and a Imperial governor as Overlord. The state of Taveruun was thus formed, and though the crusader states were to re-emerge after the Imperial Overlord departed the country remained united.

Gary

Jake Norwood wrote: What? Stay on, man. If there are three people in a room and they all agree, then you don't need two of them.

Jake

That's pretty cool, Gary. As you wanted comments, you'll get some:

1) Sometiems it is a bit silly to debate which analogy is better, but it is the best way I can think of to describe a point of contention here: is Taveruun the Promised Land or the Balkans? This is less of a 'what fits the letter of the book' than 'what fits the spirit of the world we want.' I've admitted a lacking in my knowledge of history, so I've shied away from using either of these analogies. Nevertheless, both would be effective places to build from, but each would have very different ideas on what the ruling class is like, the kind of support the population gives The Church, etc. How we pick and choose between these anologies to give us guidance is important.

2) I doubt it is a controversial comment to suggest that some important things happened before 997W. This is not really a criticism of your work, as you had a specific goal of explaining how the crusades created the current political state of Taveruun. It is only a suggestion of something else that needs to be done, even if its effects aren't as direct as the Crusades.

I'm sure I'll have more, but these are the two comments I have right now

Taveruun is Taveruun. To the extent that it is geographically and politically similar to the Balkans I'll make comparisons. But there's no reason it has to take on all the characteristics of that region or any other RL region.

In working up a timeline, see if we can salvage any of the stuff that you had prior to this revision (file off serial numbers; change names).

On the subject of using Arabic, we might want to consider not doing that. Looking at the map, it's not Alcazar ibn Djinn (that's my poor attempt at translating "the Fortress of the Djinn"). The names are in English. Perhaps we ought to stick with that. Dar-es means Haven of (or "that is"?), so it could just be Haven of Kallyrii, for example. Even if we do use the "Marluk" language, it could be different than Arabic. Pros? Cons?

I don't think that there are deserts in Ottamarluk, Gary. IIRC, it's mostly steppes and swamps. But check it first. Or are you referring to the parts near T'Zaaul?

Also, isn't the Counter-Crusade in response to a somewhat recent crusade? Because it seems from the crusade notes that Taveruun began after the crusades stopped. Meaning that there wouldn't have been any crusades for quite a while. Or am I missing something? I think I might just be confused.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: In working up a timeline, see if we can salvage any of the stuff that you had prior to this revision (file off serial numbers; change names).

Mike Holmes wrote: On the subject of using Arabic, we might want to consider not doing that. Looking at the map, it's not Alcazar ibn Djinn (that's my poor attempt at translating "the Fortress of the Djinn"). The names are in English. Perhaps we ought to stick with that. Dar-es means Haven of (or "that is"?), so it could just be Haven of Kallyrii, for example. Even if we do use the "Marluk" language, it could be different than Arabic. Pros? Cons?

Mike Holmes wrote: I don't think that there are deserts in Ottamarluk, Gary. IIRC, it's mostly steppes and swamps. But check it first. Or are you referring to the parts near T'Zaaul?

Mike Holmes wrote: Also, isn't the Counter-Crusade in response to a somewhat recent crusade? Because it seems from the crusade notes that Taveruun began after the crusades stopped. Meaning that there wouldn't have been any crusades for quite a while. Or am I missing something? I think I might just be confused.

I agree with your parallels completely. The question is how closely do we want to stick to the real world details when it comes to something like language. I mean if we use Arabic then one might assume that it is also the language of their holy text. We wouldn't want to use the Koran, however, as it's history would conflict with the history of Wyerth. So there are subtle implications about details as small as using a RW language.

Jake, any comments from the linguist?

Anyhow, I'm not dead against using the language. The problem becomes that if you use anything other than English, that we're going to have to maintain consistency in it's use. That means that, unless it's fine to switch back and forth, that in naming places we'll have to learn enough Arabic to do it right. Even if we were to use a Faux Arabic (like was my original intent; something I now think might be problematic), then we'd have to at least get the basics straight so that we don't mess up the presentation.

Further, if we use some language to name Ottamarluk places, shouldn't we for consistency name Taveruun places in their language? Or can we assume that they always use names and don't use "the" and "of" etc, in placenames?


Looking foreward to the expanded timeline. I really like the idea of Kallary. Can you outline where it might have been on the map a bit? Just so we know where we can put stuff like Kallary ruins and the like.

BTW, the Ottamarluks being parallel to the Turks would put them in a place like Turkey, or central asia. I think that Jake went with a more early Seljuk Turk presentation of their homeland as somewhat more central asian in character (which, in fact, would make Taveruun more like Turkey). Anyhow, that's the image I get when I read his description of that country's geography. OTOH, that would include arid lands as well, and as a large country there are almost certainly desert regions somewhere in it.

Mike

I see Otamarluk as very turkish/crimean, with a heavy arab influence in the east.

Language-wise, I'm all for incorporating realistic language elements in trying to communicate or express something in creating maps and places. Almost all the names of the weyrth nations are derived from the languages of the people that that nation imitates.

So go with turkish, with an arabic modification in the east. Also, consistency in spelling is a moot point with dialectical differences and also with the fact that spelling just historically wasn't very consistent, even in Latin.

Jake

Jake Norwood wrote:
So go with turkish, with an arabic modification in the east. Also, consistency in spelling is a moot point with dialectical differences and also with the fact that spelling just historically wasn't very consistent, even in Latin.

Mike Holmes wrote:

Jake Norwood wrote:
So go with turkish, with an arabic modification in the east. Also, consistency in spelling is a moot point with dialectical differences and also with the fact that spelling just historically wasn't very consistent, even in Latin.

Hmm. Good point. I'm convinced. Anyone else have any objections?

Mike "glad his province isn't adjacent to Ottamarluk as he knows no Turkish" Holmes

Gary, run with it. It'll be cool to see what you come up with.

I am now thinking of the Maruzins as something like Hittites, or Chaldeans (northern Iraq/Syrai). Linguistically, I'd think they'd be very influenced by the "Aramaic" that I think you'd find in Dardanet, and somewhat by Helenic (greek from Turkey). But, yes, also Marluk. Think the modern Chaldean dialect that the Kurds (IIRC) speak.

Hmmm. I'm really starting to see Taveruun as a combined Mideast/Balkan model now. Basically, it's a holdover Byzantine Empire (which explains its church afilliation). Assuming a Turk who somehow hasn't moved on the entire mideast, this means that the Marluks are in something like central asia and Persia (modern Iran), currently. Taveruun is the mideastern link between "European" Mainlund, and the East. Change my previous comment about Ormuz to being Basra (which totally fits the map). Ormuz would be in SE.

By that equation, the eight provinces would line up like so:

N: Northern and Eastern Anatolia (Turkey)
NE: Caucusus (Georgia)
E: Bablylonian Persia (Iraq/Iran)
SE: Southern coastal Persia (Coastal Iran, Pakistan)
S: Iraq/South Persia (Kuwait, Iraq)
SW: Assyria (Syria)
W: Southern and Western Anatolia (Turkey)
NW: Eastern Balkans (Romania/Bulgaria/Serbia)

Anyhow, imagine that the Byzantine empire made a late comback against the remaining Sassinid Turks (stretching to the Persian gulf). Or maybe a back and forth between the Seljuks and Byzantines. Then the Seljuks just inhabit most of Iran, Afghanistan, and the Central Asian countries at start, and really haven't started their westward expansion. They do, however, steal something...the cross of Jesus, why not... from Jerusalem, and take it back to Nishapur for safe keeping. Then the crusades are to get that back. So the Counter-Crusade would be the Turks finally taking Turkey and the rest of the mideast. Historically, they should take all of it, and then some (what in Wyerth would be the south eastern portions of Cyrinthmeir, and later, even as far as places like the Magyar country).

Starting to see potential parallels? Anyhow, just food for thought.

Mike

Jake, in Brian's absence, is there any material in OBAM which particularly references Taveruun?

Mike Holmes wrote:
Hmmm. I'm really starting to see Taveruun as a combined Mideast/Balkan model now. Basically, it's a holdover Byzantine Empire (which explains its church afilliation). Assuming a Turk who somehow hasn't moved on the entire mideast, this means that the Marluks are in something like central asia and Persia (modern Iran), currently. Taveruun is the mideastern link between "European" Mainlund, and the East.

Just a thought, but are we getting a bit TOO detailed? I mean, do we really need to get into all this detail on language? Since none of us speak these languages, and its highly unlikely readers of this will either, a simple gloss-over should be more than adequate, I'd think.

James, I agree, actually on the subject of language. Messing around with it leads to lots of philosophical debates. The easiest way to be consistent with it is just to use English. But Gary want's to see if we can't inject a little color. And for consistency sake, if we do decide to use something other than English, it's a good idea to have a small vocab for common words.

Gary, the result of your analysis is to say that there should be two largely distinct dialects. I can go with that if that's what we chose to do. But I think that it's going to have little effect on naming places. That is, basically, I think we should come up with a vocab of just a few words and go with that, and assume that these common terms do not change dramatically from dialect to dialect.

Here's what I think we need:
The
Of/from
Woods/forest
Mountain
Moor/Swamp/Wetland
Port/Harbor/Haven
River
Lake

These are the sorts of words you see in place names all over, as part of the name.

For now, people should feel free to use English for these things. Also, if you want to make up another word for one of these things, that's OK, as it can be explained as a synonym, or a dialectical difference.

Would that be too much trouble for people to deal with? I can go with either this or just English, makes no difference to me personally.

BTW, if we do go with a language, I think that we ought not present it as biased towards Mainlund by making those European languages "English". I'd prefer that they have languages all their own. Thus if a placename had an old Imperial title to it, it ought to have a Latin-ish feel or something.

But do you see Jame's point, Gary? It's a slippery slope going with that much detail.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: James, I agree, actually on the subject of language. Messing around with it leads to lots of philosophical debates. The easiest way to be consistent with it is just to use English. But Gary want's to see if we can't inject a little color. And for consistency sake, if we do decide to use something other than English, it's a good idea to have a small vocab for common words.

Gary Bingham wrote: The purpose here is not to teach people how to speak the language but to give a distinct character to the region we are lovingly creating. Let me take a look at it and see what I can come up with ;)

Mike Holmes wrote: Gary, the result of your analysis is to say that there should be two largely distinct dialects. I can go with that if that's what we chose to do. But I think that it's going to have little effect on naming places. That is, basically, I think we should come up with a vocab of just a few words and go with that, and assume that these common terms do not change dramatically from dialect to dialect.

Here's what I think we need:
The
Of/from
Woods/forest
Mountain
Moor/Swamp/Wetland
Port/Harbor/Haven
River
Lake

These are the sorts of words you see in place names all over, as part of the name.

Mike Holmes wrote: BTW, if we do go with a language, I think that we ought not present it as biased towards Mainlund by making those European languages "English". I'd prefer that they have languages all their own. Thus if a placename had an old Imperial title to it, it ought to have a Latin-ish feel or something.

Mike Holmes wrote: But do you see Jame's point, Gary? It's a slippery slope going with that much detail.

Funny you should say that. I just today made some final decisions on the country.

I had been considering everything you guys said on some of my initial comments, and went back and reviewed the book in greater detail again, and I finally came down with a game plan. Its all in the noggin, I just need to sit down and write it; since I'm at work now, and my wife and I have our chess club meeting tonight, it will have to wait until after work tomorrow before I can transcribe it.

I think you guys are going to like it. I certainly hope so at least!


As for languages... I see your points, but from my observations, barring Tolkien and a few other sources, getting too detailed on a language just for flavor can be a dealbreaker. I'm reminded of a game I loved system-wise, called Skyrealms of Jorune, that had an entire glossary of terms that were used, and it was a real turn-off to players.

Just use a dash of language is my suggestion; just enough salt and pepper to give a bit of flavor, without drowning out the taste of the core material, and I think it is fine. Go too deep, and you will risk the same potential alienation of people who just want a good bit of material to add to their campaign.

Morfedel wrote: I think you guys are going to like it. I certainly hope so at least!

I'm reminded of a game I loved system-wise, called Skyrealms of Jorune, that had an entire glossary of terms that were used, and it was a real turn-off to players.

Just use a dash of language is my suggestion

Mike! You know SoJ?!?!?!

I had no problems with the glossary, but I still thouht after awhile it got silly. Illidges instead of Inns?

Man, I loved that game though. I don't have a copy anymore, but I keep hoping to find one.

Morfedel wrote: Mike! You know SoJ?!?!?!

Man, I loved that game though. I don't have a copy anymore, but I keep hoping to find one.

The last edition was, sadly, just a hair's breath from being garbage. They revised the rules, in order to try and make it more attractive, not realizing it wasn't the rules that was making it hard to sell.

And then, they went further, and put it out badly BADLY edited. The level of mistakes in there was a hair's breath from being unforgivable, and it made it incredibly hard to find relative information, and make heads or tails of certain things in some sections; even having played earlier editions, I had trouble making out what they were trying to say in some sections. If I recall correctly, the section on Dyshas was the worst.

So, I'd be looking for the second to last edition. Uhm, 2nd or 3rd, I do not recall, but when I see it, I'll know it. And then I'll get it. :)

Gary, did you ever get around to finishing that timeline in total? Could you post it at some point as a list of dates for ease of reference?

Mike

I'm sorry I'm not posting as much; I'm having some writer's block for the Northwest, and I'm having difficulty thinking of specific categories we need to dicuss for the country as a whole.

Mike Holmes wrote: Gary, did you ever get around to finishing that timeline in total? Could you post it at some point as a list of dates for ease of reference?

Whoops. That was a train-wreck of a miscommunication. Sorry for my involvement. Like Mike, I was under the impression you were going to post something, but I can put something together if you'd like.

And yes, the entire core book is squarely centered on Mainlund. Generally speaking, I don't think this is a bad thing, but it does lead to some accidents which are less than great.

For example, it is perfectly natural for any supplemental info on Taveruun to paint Otmarluk as the bad guy, and Taveruun is the good guy. Part of this is because one is the agressor, but not completely. I don't think this was as much a problem with the core book as a choice, but I agree it does leave some wholes that may be worthwhile to fill in.

It's also fine to make Otamarluk the bad guy for Taveruun, so long as when we discuss Otamarluk they're the good guy.

Jake

What I think is best in terms of these sorts of things is to present three viewpoints. First an objective view so that the GM gets an idea of the "realities" of the situation such as they lead to potentially good play. Then I like to present each side's biased opinions so that the reader gets an idea of what the typical man on the ground thinks.

This is why I posted the thing about the Marluk traveler. So we could see their side of the conflict.

Mike

Ah, good, I agree. The "there is no good guy or bad guy, just conflicting interests" is a very important part of TROS play.

Jake

Me too, on that one.

So, if I understand things now, Gary will be posting a timeline.
Just want to make sure I have a clue :)

Timeline
W565 Helena falls to Legions of Xanarium in a series of massive sea-borne assaults. The Ruler of the port city of Dar-Es-Kallyrii begins to supplement the formidable natural defenses of the haven with the construction of mighty sea walls. A program of shipbuilding is also started in an effort to ward off any imperial incursions.

W574 When the massed fleet of Xanarium and Dar-Es-Kallyrii clash in the straits of Malan the resulting sea battle ends in the first major defeat for the fledgling Xanarian Empire. Both fleets are devastated and whilst the resources of Xanarium and Helena will allow the empire to rebuild the fleet in less than a decade, the Taveruu city-state will never again regain the sea power that it had amassed.

W583 Xanarium turns it’s attention to Dardanet. Whilst the Xanarium fleet maintains a effective blockade on Dar-Es-Kallyrii, plans to assault the city state are shelved.

W608 – W900 Whilst the military might of the Xanarium Empire set about subduing the north the Church of the Three begins an extensive missionary campaign to convert the lands in the south.

Approx. W900 Missionaries begin to make in roads into the heathen lands of the Taveruu. Cyrinthmeirian missons are established in the cities of komar and Dardani missionaries begin to have a sizeable presence in the sea port of IIlitzi.

W938 When the treaty of Spatha is signed by Emperor Dominatine III and Shieq Abu Kaullan of Dar-Es-Kallyrii , effectively handing over the control of the city state to the Xanarian Empire, riots erupt in the haven. The elder Followers of the Prophets rouse the Kallyrii populace to Holy war and the Shieq is expelled from the city.

W947 Force loyal to the Suul’tan of Otarmarluk expel Xanarian missionaries from Illitzi and the Marluks surge forward to secure Dar-Es-Kallyrii for the Follower’s of the Prophet

W979 Dardani holdings in the lands of the Taveruu are swept aside my the Marmaluks and the armies of Dardanet fall back.

W988 The Marluk armies surge across the Dardanet border seeking to destroy their ancient foes. The Dardani are force to fight a guerilla war against the Vowist’s. I desparate plea is made to the Empire to attack and drive back the Suul’tan army.

W1000 – W1007 First Crusade

W1002 Markus Adolfus of Cyrinthmeir wins a series of victories against Vowist city-states south of the Cyrinthmeirian border and the Duchy of Komar is born from the ashes.

W1003 Dar-Es-Kallyrii falls to Crusader armies under the command of Alexius Medellius of the Seat, and Giovanni Uradzia of Helena.

W1004 The Kingdom of Kallary is established on the coast near to the border with Helena encompassing much of the territory of the old city-state of Dar-Es-Kallyrii.

W1006 The Helenic crusader faction forges north from Kallary seeking spoils. The March of Radzia is created in the mountainous region near the border of Helena between the Duchy of Komar and the Kingdom of Kallary.

W1047 - W1054 Second Crusade

W1047 Dardanet pushes it’s border north claiming a portion of the lands promised to the King of Kallary. A successful Kallarian petition to the Xanarian emperor triggers a call for a new crusade. The crusade concludes after a long campaign through the lands of the Taveruu with victory in the Battle of Illitzi.

W1054 The County of Illitzi is formed.

W1101 – W1106 Third Crusade.

W1101 Xanarth Vedreidi issues a call to “all those who love the church” and forms the Third Crusade to march against Vowist forces holding the Galadon region. Shortly after he dies of a massive stroke and the formation of the Xanarian contingent of the crusade is delayed.

W1102 In spite of calls from the new Xanarth to wait the massed northern crusader contigent surges southward from the Duchy of Komar.

W1104 The First Battle of Longstone. The Third Crusade is initially successful as the light cavalry of the Sul’taan’s army are not able to effectively defend against the predominantly infantry crusaders in the mountains north of Longstone. The Sul’taan summer palace in Longstone is taken and razed.

W1105 The Second Battle of Longstone. Better able to operate in the plains of Galadon the Sul’taan’s Vowist forces take the upper hand in the conflict and the surviving crusaders are besieged in the fortress at Longstone.

W1106 – W1111 Fourth Crusade

W1106 A new crusade finally arrives in the County of Illitzi composed of forces from the Seat, Helena, Dardanet and Fauth surges northward to break the siege of Longstone.

W1011 After a series of hard won victories the Vowist forces are pushed back over the Galadonian River. The Barony of Galadon is formed.

W1161 Reformation of Taveruun. In a bid to reduce the power and automony of the crusader states the Emperor institutes a policy of reforms to bring the whole of Taveruun back under Xanarian control. The Compass counties are established and an Imperial Overlord is given executive control over the region. The original feudal rulers of the crusader states remain in control of the counties but are re-titled as highlords. The Imperial Overlord uses the Imperial legions to maintain order.

W1179 The completion of the Imperial Highway quite literally paves the way for further crusades.

W1182 - W1194 Fifth Crusade.

W1196 – W1198 Sixth Crusade.

W1198 Crusade of King Calandrias of Gelure

W1199 Crusade of Lord Aria of Trezandi

W1200 – W1202 First Crusade of Haggar of Angharad

W1203 – W1209 The Golden Crusade (aka Seventh Crusade or Last Crusade). Xanarth Calingaitus calls for a “crusade to shake the gates of heaven” and many of the states of the empire rise to the call.

W1204 Siege of Spatha. When a huge crusader army is refused entry to the sea-port of Spatha in Helena, the city is besieged and falls to the Golden Crusade.

W1208 The Spathan Expedition leaves Helena on an ambitious journey to take the Golden Crusade around the Point of Fauth to the Port of Illitzi in southern Taveruun and ends in disaster as a storm claims the lives of thousands of crusaders.

W1209 Second Crusade of Haggar of Angharad

W1209 Helena and Dardanet sign the Antica Concord and cede from the Empire. Komar and Kallary sign the Concord and refuse to admit crusaders. King Haggar is turned back before even setting a foot in the Holy land.

W1229 Helena returns to the Empire.

Okay guys there is my starter for now.

It only goes up to shortly after the crusades and I want to bring that up to modern day. I have been influenced a lot by actual crusader history but I hope that i stayed true to the rulebook and to the tenets we have already established in the this forum. Anything you guys don't like we can change. Or change it wholesale i don't mind.

Mike Holmes wrote: What I think is best in terms of these sorts of things is to present three viewpoints. First an objective view so that the GM gets an idea of the "realities" of the situation such as they lead to potentially good play. Then I like to present each side's biased opinions so that the reader gets an idea of what the typical man on the ground thinks.

Gary_Bingham wrote: Okay guys there is my starter for now.

I like the timeline, too. A few questions, though, is Kallary the West province, and the March of Radzia the Northwest province? Or is one of these Southwest?

The Crusades from 1182 to 1202, were they fairly abortive? Didn't accomplish much besides reminding the Marluks that they hate the Empire? What goals did they have if any? Invasion of what is Ottamarluk at game start? Which went after the Shard?

Also, the very important event of the invasion of Dardanet by the Ottamarluks needs to be fit in there. The 988 war seems too far back to be what the book refers to. I'm not sure if there are dates, but it seems to me that the invasions were fairly recent. In fact, I was hoping that the most recent (assuming that there was more than one) would have been within recent memory. Basically the Marluks crash the Taveruun border, march to Dardanet, expend themselves, and return home while they still can safely.

This would give yet another explanation as to why the Marluks have their military at such a high readiness if it were recent enough (though not so recent that they'd not have had time to recover). Ihn fact, I was thinking that they're just waiting for a new crop of horsemen and Janisaries to finish assembling before the invasion.

How well does this all work with what's in the book (alas I can't have it with me at work)? What's supposed to have been the precipitating event for the Counter-Crusade? Is it listed anywhere? Is the last of the Crusades recent enough according to this (is the wound still fresh enough)? Or is the Counter-Crusade just a response to perceived Imperial weakness, and opportunistic?

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: I like the timeline, too. A few questions, though, is Kallary the West province, and the March of Radzia the Northwest province? Or is one of these Southwest?

Mike Holmes wrote: The Crusades from 1182 to 1202, were they fairly abortive? Didn't accomplish much besides reminding the Marluks that they hate the Empire? What goals did they have if any? Invasion of what is Ottamarluk at game start? Which went after the Shard?

Mike Holmes wrote: Also, the very important event of the invasion of Dardanet by the Ottamarluks needs to be fit in there. The 988 war seems too far back to be what the book refers to. I'm not sure if there are dates, but it seems to me that the invasions were fairly recent. In fact, I was hoping that the most recent (assuming that there was more than one) would have been within recent memory. Basically the Marluks crash the Taveruun border, march to Dardanet, expend themselves, and return home while they still can safely.

Mike Holmes wrote: This would give yet another explanation as to why the Marluks have their military at such a high readiness if it were recent enough (though not so recent that they'd not have had time to recover). Ihn fact, I was thinking that they're just waiting for a new crop of horsemen and Janisaries to finish assembling before the invasion.

How well does this all work with what's in the book (alas I can't have it with me at work)? What's supposed to have been the precipitating event for the Counter-Crusade? Is it listed anywhere? Is the last of the Crusades recent enough according to this (is the wound still fresh enough)? Or is the Counter-Crusade just a response to perceived Imperial weakness, and opportunistic?

Or it may be that the Vowist armies had by that stage had the measure of crusader armies and could effectively counter any incursion.

W1368 to W1402 The Years of Peace and Prosperity. During the late fourteenth century wealth and security reigned in the Imperial Province of Taveruun. With the reduced requirement for defense the armed forces of the region were markedly reduced. Only the Orders of Knighthood were to actually increase their military presence as they grew in power and influence and continued to exploit the abundant natural resources that had been ceded to them during the crusades.

W1403 – W1408 A number of Marmaluk raids across the Galadonian river rock the province. The Highlords hold a council in Bettlerskrone where they are warned that the Vowists are probing the borders in preparation for war. This theory is dismissed by the Imperial Overlord.

W1410 – W1414 The Dardanri War.

W1410 A massive Marluk army sweeps across the Bridge of Fates in Galadon and lays siege to Longstone and Bettlerskrone.

W1411 Battle of Tieston Vilage. Taveruun forces defending the southern counties are out-flanked and broken by the Marmaluk light cavalry. The Marluk army crosses the border into Dardanet.

W1412 The Knights of the Shard break the siege of Bettlerskrone in dramatic style destroying a full third of the invading Marluks. The knights begin operations to destroy Marluk resupply lines throughout the southern counties.

W1413 The Last of the Dardanri standing armies are destroyed by the Marmaluks. The capital city of Larta is besieged.

W1413 Battle of Larta. The Otamarluk army, short on supplies and weakened by constant harassment by Dardanri guerrilla forces, are defeated by an Mainlund and Taveruu army outside the walls of Larta.

W1414 The remaining Marluks in Dardanet and Taveruun fight a running battle to retreat back to Otarmarluk. The siege of Longstone is broken.

W1415 The Emperor decrees that Taveruun must look to its own defenses and withdraws the Imperial Overlord, leaving the expensive Imperial Legions under the command of the Highlord of the Imperial East County.

W1416 The Highlords convene council in Longstone and the Crusader Kingdoms are reformed and a mutual defense pact is signed. The high lords agree to share the cost of the Eastguard legions with the Baron of Galadon and work begins again on the construction of the Eastern Wall.

W1467 Three villages are destroyed in Marmaluk raids across the Galadonian River. The Knights of the Shard call for an immediate recall to all knights to Taveruun.

A few notes on Gary's new stuff. First and foremost, I believe that the city is Earta, which is important as it's Jake's wife's name. :-)

I think that it ought to be mentioned that part of the recalling of the Overlord probably had to do with the Highlords not paying their taxes. The book says that most of the Empire's provinces dropped out earlier, actually, but we can say that Taveruun held on for a while longer at least nominally.

How about this. The Imperial Overlord was responsible for keeping control of the region and collecting in the name of the Seat. The Highlords of the particular provinces of Taveruun each stopped paying at different points in the 14th cent. (probably part of what brought on the years of peace and prosperity, which probably incidentally benefited Ottamarluk in terms of trade, etc.). But in the interest of diplomacy and the thought of eventually regaining the tribute of Taveruun, the Overlord position was kept in place; just the Seat showing that it nominally was supposed to be governing, depsite it having little control at all at this point (other than religiously). Eventually it becomes a figurehead position as contact with the Seat grows less feasible.

Then the retraction of the Overlord in 1415 is just the Seat's way of saying, "Fired! No way, I quit! You're on your own!"

Does that make sense?

So the war with Dardanet ended more than fifty years ago. That means only the eldest of the greyhairs remembers anything about it. There's something that I like about that. But is it close enough to make the whole thing seem immediate enough?

Also, in fleshing things out, I was wondering if we ought to look at the other surrounding nations for potential wars that have occured. I'm going to guess that at some point a war with Ixaliph must have occured (and may in part relate to the current disposition of the northern provinces). I'm seeing short, intense wars, if anything. Does the book mention anything on this?

BTW, given the revision of the disposition of the city in the south, some of the Illitzi references should be changed to the proper name of the port (which I can't remember, but starts with a Z).

------
How about this for Numerian relations, and an expansion and focusing of the timeline as it involves the South?

W608 – W900 Whilst the military might of the Xanarium Empire set about subduing the north the Church of the Three begins an extensive missionary campaign to convert the lands in the south.

W712 A horde of Heljin Marmeluks, displaced by a war with Svarastra, capture the entirity of the Principality of Serizia, a small Hotar country. Closely related to the Numerians (in fact amongst the first to have broken from Tez'Hamun after the collapse of that great civilization), the Hotars controlled what are now the lands and cities of Northern Numeria. Their capital at Z*, the Hotars had managed to create quite an impressive civilization in part influenced by the Svarastran regime at the time with which they had much trade. Especially impressive given the near total lack of arable land in the Principality.

Approx. W900 Dardani missionaries begin to have a sizeable presence in the sea port of Z*.

W947 Forces loyal to the Suul’tan of Otarmarluk expel Xanarian missionaries from Z*. The region effectively joins the Ottamarluk empire, though the Heljin Pasha will continue to be the putative ruler of the region.

W979 Dardani holdings in the lands of the Taveruu (SW?) are swept aside by the Heljin Marmaluks (at the prompting of the Suul'taan?) and the armies of Dardanet fall back (to their present day border with Taveruun? Would make sense with the 1047 comment. Some things for the author of Southwest to decide).

W1054 The Battle of Z*, and the rout of the Heljins results in the founding of the County of Illitzi, it's capital at Illitzi some 30 miles north of Z*, and the ending the Second Crusade. The leader of the Crusade, Gottar of Prepisan, gives control of the region to Sergin of Komar, a young and enthusiastic Taveruu convert to Xanar. He declares the region a County so that it will be subordinate to the Northern crusader kingdoms.

Imperial forces and the Numerians confront each other for the first time across the border. The Numerians disliked the Heljin Marmeluks and didn't
bother to try to tell the difference between Marmeluk and Taveruu and Mainlunder. The vast and ferocious Numerian desert keeps each side at bay, however.

W1079 A Monk named Geriun establishes the Monastery of Zurasan, and assembles a new order. This new modification of Imperial worship will become known as Taveru Monastacism due mostly to the majority Taveru membership.

W1106 A new crusade finally arrives in the County of Illitzi through the port of Z*, composed of forces from the Seat, Helena, Dardanet and Fauth surges northward to break the siege of Longstone. A contingent of Illitzi infantry joins the Crusade led by the Count.

W1111 The Barony of Galadon is formed. The new Baron notes that the forces of Illitzi have aquitted themselves well leading to negotiations between the leaders. The Count of Illitzi declares an oath of fealty to Galadorn at the beginning of the following year.

W1118 Geriun dies. His order will continue to grow, however the Zurasan monastery itself falls into disrepair and Maruzin clansmen take most of the land.

W1132-1141 The Numerian Invasions. The Descendants of Numeria gather a large force to assault into Taveruun, the nobles themselves leading long columns of chariots.

W1133 Both the city of Z* and Scallas are taken by the Numerians

W1134 Both cities are retaken when the Imperial forces from Galadorn arrive to reinforce the South's troops. Numerian forces then besiege Scallas, which fortified by the Imperial troops refuses to fall.

W1136 The seige of Scallas is broken regularly and re-established shortly thereafter each time by the Numerians. Finally the Numerian forces are forced to retreat due to supply problems.

W1138 The Numerians return in force this time heading directly for Z*. They are routed at the Battle of the Anumas River, and forced to retreat. On the way they smash into a relieving force on coming from Scallas to Z*. A large portion of the Scallas garrison gone, the Numerians easily take the city at the end of the year. For the next three years, the Numerians launch repeated attacks mostly chariot based. These cause significant damage, but the charioteers cannot hold ground and nothing changes hands after this point until the cesation of hostilities in 1141.

The rulers of Numeria have driven their country into an extreme state of disrepair, allowing the new Priestess cult to rise to ascendancy over the next century.

W1161 Reformation of Taveruun. The County of Illitzi becomes the Imperial South Province of Taveruun, and the Count becomes Highlord of the region.

W1179 The Imperial Highway completes it's last leg from Illitzi to Z*.

W1230 The Numerians invade again, this time at the whim of the Priestesses. The leaders, more organized due to the coherent planning of the Priestesses, are more effective this time. They conquer Z* and raze Illitzi. The County ceases to be an acting polity for about the next two decades, though the titles are still passed down to the next generation.

W1252 The Count of Illitzi appeals to the Emperor, who orders the province retaken. The combined Imperial forces of Taveruun are assembled, and the Numerians are crushed. The capital is rebuilt at Illitzi, and Z* is retaken. The western portions of the County remain under Numerian control, the Maruzin peoples of that region hiding from their new masters as they have for centuries whenever a new conqueror has arrived.

W1254 A new Numerian warlord named Araptah appears in the west of the county and rebuilds the monastery of Zurasan to be his seat of power.

W1267 The new Highlord of the South finally amasses an army to take care of the Numerians north of the river. He advances on Araptah who sends message to other Numerians further south for aid. These however decide to attack Z* instead taking it in the absence of the Count's troops. The count eliminates Araptah, and retakes the region (which becomes known henceforth as Numercasti), and then turns to retake Z*.

W1268 The Highlord is defeated in his attempt to retake Z* reportedly due to some miracle performed by the Priestesses (accounts vary). Z* remains in Numerian hands for the time being.

W1305 The current very popular Highlord of Illitzi, Egvandeu the Bold deigns not to send his taxes to the Overlord. He is excommunicated by the Seat, and Imperial Legions march on Illitzi. The Highlord simply evades with his troops, and takes to Maruzin country. The Overlord takes control of the cities but can't control the populace. His troops edgy, he decides to attack Z*, to return it to Taveruun control, and display his battlefield command. He in inept, in fact, which turns the assault into a debacle. The Overlord returns north, allowing the Highlord of Illitzi to resume control of his County. Taxes are never paid to the Overlord again, making Illitzi one of the first countries to effectively cede from the empire in what will become a wave over the next century.

W1320 Z*, mismanaged by warlords for the past half-century, is retaken by Egvandeu. He is killed at the battle, however.

W1330-1359 Attacks on Z* by Numerian forces become an almost yearly event. None are successful, however.

W1368 to W1402 The Years of Peace and Prosperity. With attacks from Numeria ceasing, and all revenues staying in country, Illitzi experiences the same boom as the rest of Taveruun. In 1393, the Count (the Highlord title is little used by this point) travels to the Tower of Ifsuraza and issues an order declaring the farmlands of the Azeun plateau exempt from taxation. This leads to tremendous prosperity in the region which lasts to date.

W1411 Battle of Tieston Vilage. Taveruun forces defending the southern counties are out-flanked and broken by the Marmaluk light cavalry. The Marluk army crosses the border into Dardanet.

W1412 The Knights of the Shard break the siege of Bettlerskrone in dramatic style destroying a full third of the invading Marluks. The knights begin operations to destroy Marluk resupply lines throughout the southern counties.

W1414 The remaining Marluks in Dardanet and Taveruun fight a running battle to retreat back to Otarmarluk.

W1415 The Emperor decrees that Taveruun must look to its own defenses and withdraws the Imperial Overlord, leaving the expensive Imperial Legions under the command of the Highlord of the Imperial East County.

W1416 The Highlords convene council in Longstone and the Crusader Kingdoms are reformed and a mutual defense pact is signed. Illitzi immediately re-declares it's centuries old oath of fealty to Galadorn.

W1420 The Count, having rebuilt his troops rashly decides to invade Numeria. His army is strong, but they fail take the desert into accont fully. The Numerians counterattack and again take Z*.

W1438 With help from Galadorn including the legions the Count manages to wrest control of Z*, from the current warlord.

W1459 The Priestesses of Numeria organize another massive invasion like the ones of previous centuries; a large enough threat that Illitzi recieves considerable help from other Taveruun provinces. However the obscuritan policies of the prietesses end up making the invasion a mess. The army is routed at Illitzi, and the remains retreat to Z*, which the Numerians have held since.

W1462 The Count of Illitzi cedes the town of Ardanast to the Baron of Galadorn as a diplomatic gesture.

W1467 Three villages are destroyed in Marmaluk raids across the Galadonian River. The Count of Illitzi quadruples his yearly payment to his lord at Longstone in hopes of helping to bolster the Legions in time to thwart an invasion.


Howzat?

Hey, James, some of this neccessarily affects the early history of your country. Anything you see as problematic? Also, we need to insert events that regard our countrys' relations with each other. Probably only one or two apiece. Hey, Gary, you don't mind all that Fealty and gifts stuff, do you?

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: A few notes on Gary's new stuff. First and foremost, I believe that the city is Earta, which is important as it's Jake's wife's name. :-)

Great stuff Mike ... I like a lot.

I have redone the map in Indie Netgaming
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indie-netgaming/files/Taveruun/TaveruunW1467.jpg

Take a look and I will make any corrections or additions as necessary

Gary

the name of my area is Pendus Fain, by the way, not the name of the leader.

It isn't called a kingdom, a duchy, or anything else. Just Pendus Fain. :)

Forgoodnessake.

Z* = Zahnitr

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Forgoodnessake.

Z* = Zahnitr

Mordefel wrote: the name of my area is Pendus Fain, by the way, not the name of the leader.

It isn't called a kingdom, a duchy, or anything else. Just Pendus Fain. :)

Havent worked out those particular details yet, but I will.

James Sorry forgot to add Pendus Fain. It is done now. I cannot recall your reasoning for not being a kingdom duchy or anything else. It is a feudal territory is it not, and I believe that you have retained the title of high-lord. This would suggest one of two things 1) The region is a lordship or 2) the region still regards inself to be a part of the empire and hence regards itself as a Imperial county. What is the origin of the name Pendus Fain? Is it an ancient name for the region?

You know Ralph, I keep on wanting to ask if you knew a guy named Ralph Mizzia. He became famous - or infamous - in Starfleet Battles circles, completely redefining SFB tactics with a tactic that got dubbed the "Mizzia" concept. :)

And then there is Ralph Wiazowski, who became infamous for the Wiazowski attack: "I fire one hudredfh poinfhs of plathma! you die!"

Starfleet Battles, btw, is a tactical game of startrek ship to ship combat, not to be confused with the startrek combat simulator game. SFB is the most intense tactical game I've ever played, and is quite awesome! :)

My freind Brad used Mizzia attacks to beat me up in a game we played a couple of weeks ago. For those unaware, the Mizzia attack involves holding back weapons from phase to phase in situations where you'll have further opportunities to shoot at the same down shield. This is superior to firing all at once because, according to Mizzia, the damage tables are set up such that you are more likely to do damage to critical systems this way. Indeed, you're much more likely to destroy the entire bridge of a ship (and all other control systems causing it to go dead) this way, for example.

But for Ralph Mazza's suggestion, I think that it's unneccessary. It can just be Pendus Fain. Yes, it's part of a Feudal country, but likely it was created as part of the program that created the eight "compass point" districts. As such, it might have been called a district (this is the term that the book uses) under Imperial rule.

Since the Empire has gone, however, the region would have reverted to it's simple name. Thus, as it is a polity it has to be referable by some name, but Country does fine. Thus the Country of Pendus Fain could be part of Taveruun. Note that in fact nowhere does Taveruun have a special title either - it's not a Kingdom, nor a Duchy, nor a Province... just Taveruun. A country if it must have a title.

That all said, per the history, it would be nice to know just what relationship Pendus Fain has with the rest of Taveruun. As a part, the Highlord must have sworn fealty or at the very least have signed that Defense pact referred to in the history. Perhaps that's all that has ever happened, and Pendus Fain is only barely part of Taveruun by a sort of technicality. That would be cool.

It occurs to me that an easy way around a lot of the history of Pendus Fain would be to say that it merely was split off of Illitzi or Galadorn at the time of the creation of the districts. Would that make sense to you, James? Or would you like to work out something more complex?

Mike

Gary_Bingham wrote: Brian now that you are back are you going to pick up the South east county?

Gary

Morfedel wrote: You know Ralph, I keep on wanting to ask if you knew a guy named Ralph Mizzia. He became famous - or infamous - in Starfleet Battles circles, completely redefining SFB tactics with a tactic that got dubbed the "Mizzia" concept. :)

And then there is Ralph Wiazowski, who became infamous for the Wiazowski attack: "I fire one hudredfh poinfhs of plathma! you die!"

Starfleet Battles, btw, is a tactical game of startrek ship to ship combat, not to be confused with the startrek combat simulator game. SFB is the most intense tactical game I've ever played, and is quite awesome! :)

Brian Leybourne wrote:

Uhh.. I was going to look at West, if it was left open for me. Also possibly Southwest. I have not had a chance to read through all 250-odd messages in the Taveruun thread, plus another 120+ in this thread yet, so I'm a bit behind and I don't even know what's been left for me. I will be able to start to get to them at the end of this week or so, after I clear some of the backlog at work.

I just want to say that I'm amazed and astounded at how much the Taveruun thread has exploded, from my basic comment a few months ago at how cool I thought that country was and that it was my favourite. Damn cool stuff, guys.

Brian.

Ah damn. West was the one I really wanted.

Sigh. OK, I'll go look what's there (in a few days).

Brian.

Mike: Hey, if you like SFB, they have SFB Online. Its basically a chatroom with an interface for playing SFB, map and such included. I hadnt played in over a year, but when I did... well, it did have a kind of high learning curve, but I understand it may have gotten better.

Last I checked, it was $40 a year, and I may be signing on again, as I have no one locally to play SFB with. If you are inclined, you should consider it. Some of the best sfb players around hang out there, and man, are they vicious! They do tourney games, campaigns, all kinds of things....

Val: Artificial and arbitrary? Where do you get that?! I have been playing all kinds of tactical games for years, and nowhere did I ever get THAT impression!!!!

I have never played Full Throttle, but I did play the simulator, and I thought it was, well, stupid. Most ships had NO way of having all their shields powered at full strength at the same time. Where did you EVER see that happen in Star Trek?


James: What am I doing, man, this has nothing to do with TRoS! Uhm, should I start a new thread, or is it so off topic that it shouldnt be here anywhere? :(

Morfedel wrote: Mike: Hey, if you like SFB, they have SFB Online.

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