I've been pretty busy lately with other projects, so I haven't been around much, but I have been thinking about some questions Ron raised in his Gamism essay; specifically, questions about how CRPGs have affected Gamist play in pen-and-paper RPGs. another thread has already been started on the general history of CRPGs, in answer to Ron's call for more information on it; you can see my own contribution to that thread here, which covers the early (pre-home computer) history of CRPGs.

Ron's specific comment in the Gamism essay that prompted all this thought was this (in resonse to his own surprise at the sudden disappearance of sanctioned Gamism in RPG texts):

Ron wrote:
Then again, perhaps my surprise is a matter of my own subcultural limitations, if related hobbies are considered. Gamism remained alive and well among computer games like Rogue, Nethack, Ultima library (later to become Ultima Online), Zork, Advent(ure), MUDs, MUSHes, MOOs, Everquest, Amethyst, and many more. Unfortunately, I'm an ignoramus about this entire hobby, and any insights into its history, play preferences, economics, and what-all would be very welcome at the Forge.

I am going to focus on the rogue-like games (Rogue, Nethack,) which is what I'm mainly familiar with, although I will include some comments about the ADVENT-like (Zork, Adventure) line as well. in the interest of full disclosure, I must mention that I have been toying with ideas for a rogue-like pen-and-paper RPG for a couple years now (that's not going to make a lot of sense until I actually create and show you the game, but it's not really important to this post.)

to start to reply to Ron's comment, let's consider again, briefly, the history: in 1972, Will Crowther wrote ADVENT. this was later expanded by Don Woods in 1976. it was an attempt at a D&D-like game with the computer acting as DM. Later, Michael Toy, Glenn Wichman, and Ken Arnold created the "ASCII graphics" game Rogue, which was distributed with BSD in 1980.

the essential difference, as I mentioned, was that the adventure in ADVENT-type games was very flowchart based, not only in the "dungeon map" but also in the approach to puzzle-solving and defeating monsters. since Rogue created a random graphical dungeon in a grid, in which the player's character could move freely (within limits,) it had a much more Gamist dungeoncrawl feel to it than ADVENT or Zork.

this is important, because as we well know, '70s fantasy RPGs were very dungeoncrawl, at least in feel; even In the Labyrinth's GM section (written in 1980) describes creating adventures as drawing a dungeon map and positioning monsters, traps and treasure. the whole metaplot/anti-Gamist trend in pen-and-paper RPG texts is mainly an '80s thing.

what I am suspecting is that ADVENT/Zork influenced the anti-dungeoncrawl branch of RPGs while Rogue/Nethack/Moria/Angband preserved this older approach, allowing it to be developed into Ultima, Wizardry, Might & Magic, Everquest, Diablo, and so on. you can see in the early '80s gamemaster advice texts an actual Zork-like approach to adventure design: you have a flowchart with various events and places in major boxes, prescribed paths to get into each box, and techniques to prevent players from "short circuiting" the adventure (getting to a box in the endgame without passing through earlier boxes.)

whether the early anti-dungeoncrawl texts were influenced directly by ADVENT and Zork, or whether the idea travelled through the "Choose Your Own Adventure" books first, I don't know. it's even possible that there was something else entirely floating around that inspired all three.

when viewed in this light, it really does seem that Rogue and the development of CRPGs could have been a "safe haven" for Gamist players, which could explain why there was no backlash against anti-Gamist texts; dungeoncrawlers were willing to "give up" because they had CRPGs to satisfy their urges. but the problem with that theory is that the Zork-like approach started appearing in the CRPGs, too, although it was less pronounced; you can see a flowchart-like quest structure layered on top of the random dungeon in Nethack, for example.

this may itself be a revelation. as the first fantasy CRPGs became more quest-like and less rogue-like, we eventually see the apearance of the earliest first-person shooters, which have a roguelike nature to them. but even the shooters begin to drift, inserting a quest structure (usually revealed through the device of the "cut scene".)

now, I've been rather simplistic in that I seem to equate Gamism with dungeoncrawl-style play throughout this post. ADVENT and Zork can probably be considered to be Gamist, also, but with an emphasis on puzzle-solving over hack-and-slash. but this leads to a third concept: is the "anti-Gamist" trend in traditional RPGs really an anti-Gamist trend, or just anti-dungeoncrawl? it seems to me that a quest/puzzle/story structure lends itself well to a form of Gamism, especially if the gamemaster is trying to keep all the player characters "equal"; the competition in "Gamist puzzlesolving" playstyle is over protagonism -- the GM is trying to squash all the PCs down, keeping them as mere cogs in the grand plot, while the players are trying to promote their characters as the "hero of the story". naturally, this isn't how every group plays, but this may very well explain what players who prefer Gamist were doing during the heyday of "GM plot" adventuring.

I'll add more thoughts on this later.

talysman wrote: in 1972, Will Crowther wrote ADVENT. this was later expanded by Don Woods in 1976.

Far be it from me to nitpick (yeah, right) but according to this site, Crowther was surveying a local cave in 1972, a cave he would later use as the setting for ADVENT. Later his marriage broke up and he wrote the game. The only reason I make a note of it is because Dungeons & Dragons is sited as an influence and inspiration for ADVENT, so if D&D wasn't published until 1974, well, it just bugs me.

Jack Spencer Jr wrote:

talysman wrote: in 1972, Will Crowther wrote ADVENT. this was later expanded by Don Woods in 1976.

Far be it from me to nitpick (yeah, right) but according to this site, Crowther was surveying a local cave in 1972, a cave he would later use as the setting for ADVENT. Later his marriage broke up and he wrote the game. The only reason I make a note of it is because Dungeons & Dragons is sited as an influence and inspiration for ADVENT, so if D&D wasn't published until 1974, well, it just bugs me.

I saw that, actually, or something similar, but I saw some conflicting histories as well. most of the histories mention 1972 as the date of the game (incomplete) and also mention D&D as an influence. my thought is that the original game may have just been a cave-like setting, with the D&D stuff added later by Woods.

problem #2 is that Zork is based on ADVENT, but one timeline lists it as 1976, while another lists it as '77. if it came out in '76, the same year as Wood's completion of ADVENT, how much of Zork came from the Crowther version, and how much from the Wood version?

what I am suspecting is that ADVENT/Zork influenced the anti-dungeoncrawl branch of RPGs while Rogue/Nethack/Moria/Angband preserved this older approach, allowing it to be developed into Ultima, Wizardry, Might & Magic, Everquest, Diablo, and so on.

Another nitpick. Given that Rogue didn't achieve wide distribution until 1980, the time that Ultima and Wizardry were produced, I think that they were coincidental. That is, I think they both arrived more or less simultaneously. And when you consider that Wizardry and Ultima were Apple games, you can see how many more kids had access to them. We didn't often have access to the Vax at Marquette, so there was little time to play games like Rogue back then. :-)

BTW, for people who may not be aware, the Angband code went open source a couple of years back, and there are a bunch, no a slew, of available versions. I'm currently toying with a version called Troubles of Millde Earth (TOME), that has a complete strategic map of the world (you start in Bree) something like that in Omega*. The maps have a much greater variance than in your average Angband, with forested "dungeons" and other nifty stuff. Check them out.

*Omega is another interesting version of these, if you've not seen it.

Mike

talysman wrote: now, I've been rather simplistic in that I seem to equate Gamism with dungeoncrawl-style play throughout this post. ADVENT and Zork can probably be considered to be Gamist, also, but with an emphasis on puzzle-solving over hack-and-slash. but this leads to a third concept: is the "anti-Gamist" trend in traditional RPGs really an anti-Gamist trend, or just anti-dungeoncrawl? it seems to me that a quest/puzzle/story structure lends itself well to a form of Gamism, especially if the gamemaster is trying to keep all the player characters "equal"; the competition in "Gamist puzzlesolving" playstyle is over protagonism -- the GM is trying to squash all the PCs down, keeping them as mere cogs in the grand plot, while the players are trying to promote their characters as the "hero of the story".

I'm not sure where the label "anti-Gamist" comes from or what it refers to. However, I have always thought of quest/puzzle structure as clearly Gamist. The challenge is to solve the quest/puzzle as a team -- just as the challenge in dungeon crawls is to collectively defeat the monsters and other opponents in the dungeon.

Within functional mystery/quest/puzzle-solving adventures, I don't think that the GM is trying to squash the PCs down. I think here is where your computer game parallel shines. i.e. Being successful and winning in a quest/mystery computer game does not mean that you are free from the semi-linear plot structure. Far from it. They are still in the same linear plot structure, but they have chosen the path which gets them implied acclaim for having done well -- having solved the problem.

This same applies to RPGs, I think. A good mystery/quest GM tries to present a puzzle which is difficult but still solvable by the PCs. If they do well in facing it, then they should receive some recognition/reward for it.