Hi all

Yes, I am still around, and still whittling away on The Million
Worlds. Being that the game is based on the use of a design
architecture by all of the players, I have found myself working on
the basic Persona design system. Or, more accurately, designing an
underlying meta-system which I can use to define the use of and set
the cost of all of the Traits/Abilities within the game, Attributes,
Proficiencies, Advantages, Perks, and of course Metabilities/Powers.

So I have come up with a basic effect/component type system, here
influenced by Hero 5th (of course), DC Heroes, Greg Porter's EABA,
and Paradigm by S. Isaac Dealy. I am looking for general comments
and criticisms on what I have so far, and help in fleshing out the
basic "Effect Types" around which the system is built. Here I am
trying to emulate the very flexible EABA system and Paradigm's
system as well (which is a true ability design system).

I will include the design outline I have so far for the system
below. If you have the time & interest, please give it an overview
and let me know what you think, and any ideas you might have for
Effect Types or other elements. Thanks for your interest.

MEGA-GAUGE TRAIT DEFINITION SYSTEM
===============================================

In the MEGA-GAUGE system, Persona are defined by a number of Traits.
Each of these Traits define one or more Abilities the Persona
possess.
Persona can use these abilities to peform an Act on a target that is
within the scope of that Ability. Their ability to perform these Act
is based on the Trait Score. The higher the Trait Score, the greater
the Persona's Ability. These Abilities are defined by eight
properties, which describe how they are work in the game. These
eight properties (and their abbreviations), Meta-Type (TYPE),
Detectability(DET), Target(TGT), Range(RNG), Time(TIME), Mechanics
(MECH), Effects (EFX), & Duration (DTN) are referred to as the
Ability Profile.


Each property of the ability is assigned a default value, which is
given a Cost Factor (CF) of zero. If that property is different, it
is given a positive or negative CF modifier, dependinng on whether
that difference enhances or limits the use of that ability. The
total of all the Cost Factor modifiers, is then used to determine
the cost of getting a particular GP Score in the ability, according
to the following formula.
(Trait Score + 1)*((Trait Score + 2)/2)*(1+ CF/10) if CF > 0
(Trait Score + 1)*((Trait Score + 2)/2) if CF = 0
(Trait Score + 1)*((Trait Score + 2)/2)/(1+ CF/10) if CF < 0

Default Ability Definition
===============================================

Perform a (meta-type) [TYPE] Act that is (visibly, audibly & meta)
[Detectable (DET)]on a (single Obj/Ind) [Target (TGT)] at (TS
Meters) [Range (RNG)]by taking (1 second) [Time (TIME)] Using the
(Outcome Test) [Mechanics (MECH)] to produce (General Action) [Effects
(EFX)] with a (instant) [Duration (DTN)].

[Meta-Type]
------------------------------------------------

Meta-Type describes the "source" of an ability, indicating how it
operates. Abilities fall into several broad categories with a number
of sub-categories underneath. The Metatypes are
Physical(Biological,Physiological,etc.), Mental(Intellectual,
Psychic, Psionic), Empathic(Emotional, Spiritual, & Magical),
Technological(Mechanical, Electronic, Cybernetic, Bionic, etc) &
Social(Societal, Cultural,Economic). These can also include sub-
types. Abilities within one Meta-Type generally don't work on
abilities of another Meta-Type. Though their effects may interact as
normal. The meta-type also defines the default Attributes used to
resolve the ability use with the mechanics, such as the abilities
Acting Score, Opposing Score, Ability Factor, & Success Dice Limit
for Outcome Tests. (Physical abilities work against Physical
Attributes, Mental against Mental attributes, & Empathic vs
Empathic Attributes.

[Detectability (DET)]
--------------------------------------------------------
Abilities have a noticeable and detectable agency by which they
occur, allowing a Persona invoking them to be determined as the
source of the abilities effect. By Default The use of an ability is
assumed to be perceptible by 3 sense groups. It use, or the
generation of it's effect is assumed to be visibile, audible, and
detectable by one other sense group, depending on the nature of the
ability. Additonally, the use of an ability, or it's effect is
detectable by means of it's meta-type as well.

Standard Detectability - +0
Undetectable by Targeting
sense Group - +6
Undetectable by Non-Targeting
Sense Group - +2
Undetectable by All Sense
Groups(Sight/Hearing/Smell/taste) +10
Undetectable Effects - As Above
Undetectable by Single Sense +2

[Target (TGT)] = Includes #/Mass/Scope/Area Modifiers
(Super/Broad/Narrow/Focused)
===============================================
Self Only -5
(SIZE 0) Object/Individual +0(-1 Objects Only, -1 Living
Only,- 3 High int Only)
Multiple Objects/Individuals +3 + 1/2(GP Score(#)
Single Large Object + Max SIZE
Small Objects Only - Min SIZE
Ability Scope: Superset +20 (Any within a Meta-
Type/Category)
Ability Scope: Broad +10 (Any Within a
Field/Class)
Ability Scope: Narrow +0 (Any Within a
Subject/Group)
Ability Scope: Focused -10 (Any Within a
Topic/Cluster)
AoE: Radius(TS+SIZE m.) +(10+(1/2 GP Score
(Multiplier))
AoE: Cone (TS+SIZE m.) +(10+(1/2 GP Score
(Multiplier))
AoE: Line (TS+SIZE+3 m.) +(10+(1/2 GP Score(Multiplier))
AoE: Custom Volume (TS+SIZE+5 Hexes) +(10+(1/2 GP Score(Multiplier))
AoE: Fixed Radius +(5+(1/2 GP Score (Radius m.)
AoE: Fixed Cone +(5+(1/2 GP Score-
(Side Length m.)
AoE: Fixed Line +(5+1/2 GP Score+
(length m.)
AoA: Fixed Volume +(5 +(1/2 GP Score (# of m^3
Hexes))
AoE: Modifiers
AoE: Selective +3
AoE: Non-Selective -3
AoE: Conforming +5
AoE: Autofire ability +10
AoE: Hole In The Middle +3 (+5 if size is
variable)
AoA: Explosion -9/-7/-5/-3/-1 (Effect
drops TS - (4x/3x/2x/1x/1/2x) GP Score (distance m.))
Usable On Others
Usable By Other +3
Usable Simultaneously +5
Usable As Attack +10
Modifiers
Ranged +5
Extra Objects/Individuals +3 + 1/2(GP Score(#)
LOS not needed after initial Transfer Persistent

[Range (RNG)]
===============================================
Range CF Mod
---------------------------------
No Range/Touch -5
Ranged (TS + SIZE m.) +0
Fixed Range +(1 +1/2(GP Score(Range))
Extended Range +(1/2(GP Score (Range Multiplier))
Limited Range -(-1(-3(x1/2)),-2(-5(x1/3)),-3(-7(x1/5)),-
4(-10(x1/10th))
Accuracy +(1/2 GP Score(Effective Range)(X1/2 For Quick
AimTime, X1/4 Slow)
No Range Modifiers + 10
LOS Range + 10
Extraordinary Range:
Indirect +3/+5/+7 (FixedPosition/away;Variable
Position/Away;Variable position/Direction)
Transdimensional +3/+5/+7 (Single Dimension/Related Group/Any
Dimension)
Through Time +1/2 (1/2 GP Score( time in s.) (Per
direction)+10 for attack powers)

[Time (TIME)]
===============================================
Each ability requires the Persona to spent a certain amount of time
and effort to invoke the ability, or otherwise produce it's effect.

Time Increment
------------------------------------------------

This can be an increments of 1 or more Action Phases(0,1/2,1, AC =2x
Action Phases),Seconds(+0), Minutes(+18), Hours(+36), days(+50),
weeks(+59), months (+65), years(+76) etc. Minimum amount of time an
Ability can take to use is a 0- Phase Action. The Minimum time an
"attack" ability can take to use is a 1/2 Phase action (1 AC). GP
Score equal to Time Value in Seconds is used as Time CF Mod. With
times over 1 Second being a negative CF Mod.


Time Increment CF Mod
---------------------------------------
0-Phase +10
1/2 Phase +5
Full Phase/1 Second +0
3 seconds -5
5 seconds -7
10 seconds -10
Minutes -18
Hours -36
Days -50
Weeks -59
Months -65
Years -76
Decades -86
Centuries -96
Millenia -106

Increment Modifiers CF Mod
-------------------------------------
Initial Activation Only x1/2
Normal Increment +0
Absolute Increment -5
Extra Time +2
Less Time +2
Uninterruptable +0
Interruptable +5(Uses Interval based on Time
requirement for Test)

The Increment can be Fixed(such as 1/2 phase action, or 4 Seconds),
or Variable, based on Target, Complexity, or Opposing Score.
Further the time requirement is either Normal or Absolute. Normal
time requirements are benchmarks based on the time needed by the
average person, and as such can be performed faster by faster
Persona, such as someong with super-speed. Absolute time
requirements are independent of the personae performing them, and
require the full amount of in-game time & effort to be spent before
the ability can be invoked.

For multi-phase actions, the Persona must spend a number Action
Phases equal to required time length spending the necessary effort
to invoke the ability. This is done as a Multi- phase action. (or
spend necessary amount of AC's on the task.) If the time required is
absolute, he must spend a number of Standard Action Phases (segment
30, 20, 10) on the task, with Action Phases accruing each Action
Round starting on the first standard action phase after his on or
after his initiative, if he is slow, will take longer. (Or must
spend number of phases at task, during which he can spend all, 1/2
or none of his AC's on other actions, depending on effort.)

Certain abilities may allow Extra Time to be spent, to increase
chance of Success, or may be Rushed, allowing less time to be spent,
with decreased chance of Success. (See time rules under Tests)
Abilities with Absolute time requirements can neither be hurried or
rushed.

This time can be either Uninterruptable (Must spent that amount of
continuous time to invoke ability, or effect is lost. Can quit
invoking the effect if necessary.

Interruptable
(Still must spend entire amount of time, however, any time spent
performing act is cumulative, once necessary time & effort has been
spent, the ability is invoked). To restart an interruptable
ability, that was voluntarily suspended, the persona must succeed at
an Mind:WL Test against an OS equal to the GP Score corresponding to
the number of seconds the ability use has been interrupted. A player
CAN lose the time spent on Interruptable ability use by other means,
such as the destruction of his preparations or materials, based on
any limitations placed on the ability use.

Concentration
===============================================
For actions with a time requirement of more than a 0-phase, or a 1/2
Phase, a Persona must focus a variable amount of attention &
concentration towards invoking his ability. This effort falls into
one of five categories, Incidental, Continous, Committed, Full
Commitment, and Total Commitment.

Incidental (+0)
-------------------
A Incidental effort ability requires the persona to dedicate a 0-
phase action each Action Phase to invoking their ability until the
time requirement has been met.

Committed (-5)
-----------------------
A Committed effort ability requires the persona to dedicate a Full-
phase action each Action Phase to invoking their ability until the
time requirement has been met. They may only take 0-Phase actions,
such as a Step during this time.

Full Commitment (-10)
-----------------------------------------------------------

A Full Committment effort ability requires the persona to dedicate a
full-phase each action phase to invoking their ability until the
time requirement has been met. Further, they are 1/2 OS against any
melee attacks launched at them. They have limited awareness of their
surroundings during this time but may make a PER roll, at a +5DM,
with a targeting sense to notice important events. They may only
take 0-Phase actions, such as a Step during this time.

Total Commitment (-20)
-----------------------------------------------------------------

A Total Committment effort ability requires the persona to dedicate
a full-phase each action phase to invoking their ability until the
time requirement has been met. Further, they are at Zero(0) OS
against any melee attacks launched at them. They are unaware of
their surroundings, other than the target of their ability, and they
may not move, or take any other 0-phase actions during this time.



[Mechanics (MECH)}
===============================================
The effect of an ability can be determined in one of three ways.
By an Outcome Test, by a Ratings Test, or by a Comparison Test.

Outcome Test Mechanics
===============================================
[Opposing Score]
------------------------------------------------------------------
Metatype Aptitude Attribute +0
Metatype Capacity Attribute +0
Ranged Difficulty +0
Resisted by Proficiency +5

[Acting Score]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Metatype Aptitude Attribute +0
Metatype Capacity Attribute +0
Requires a Proficiency -5

[Ability Factor]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
GP Score of Ability +0
Metatype Aptitude Attribute +0
Metatype Capacity Attribute +0
Metatype Attribute's Aptitude -5
Based On Proficiency -5
Based On Weapon/Equipment -5


[Success Dice Limit]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Metatype Aptitude Attribute +0
Based on EPEN + Success Result Score -5
Based On Proficiency -5

[Failure Dice Limit]
-------------------------------------------------
Based On Acting Score +0
Based On Proficiency -5

Ratings Test Mechanics
===============================================
[Dicestep]
-------------------------------------------
Based On Trait Score +5
Based On Proficiency +0

Comparison Test Mechanics
===============================================
SRS = Metatype Aptitude Attribute +0
SRS = Metatype Capacity Attribute +0
SRS = Stat +0
SRS = Trait Score +0
SRS = Proficiency -5


[Effect (EFX)]= Specific Application of Result Score
===============================================
Ability Effects define the way the Result Score of the
ability is applied to determine it's effect in the game.

Information Effect +0
----------------------------------
Compare Result Score to Information Points 1+ obvious points, 1/2 OS
equals Non-obvious info, 1xOS+ Detailed/Non-Obvious Info 2xOS+
Everything THere is to know.

Damage Effect +5
-------------------------------------
Apply attack with TS PEN & TS DMG against target's
Defenses.

Defensive Effect +5
--------------------------------------
Resist Penetration of attack by Defense Rating(DR).

Difficulty Modifier Effect +5
-------------------------------
Apply DM Modifier to subject/target equal
to Result Score

General Action Effect +0
-------------------------------
Allows target to succesfully perform
action of some Scope. Includes
Use/Operation - Succesfully use/Operate Item
(weapons/Vehicles/Equipment)
Knowledge/Information Effect - Gain some knowledge/Information
Build/Repair - Successfully build or repair item
Complementary Action - Provides Modifier to another Act by character.
Prevents Action - Prevents subject from taking particular Act or use
of some ability.
Interaction Effect - Allows
Charm/Persuasion/Interrogation/Intimidation

Movement Effect +5
------------------------------------------
Allows Subject to move at Speed equal to Success Result Score.

Creation Effect +20
------------------------------------------


Transformation Effect +10
------------------------------------------

Knack Effect +5
------------------------------------------
adds TS to Test Total & Success Total of Action within Scope

Modify Trait Score Effects +20
==============================================
can add or subtract TS from Target Trait Score.

[Duration (DTN)]
===============================================
Duration is the amount of time the Effect generated by the ability
remains in effect, after it has been succesfully invoked and
targeted.

Duration CF Mod.
------------------------------------------
Instant +0
Last As User Wills +10 (LOS/Range/Consciousness)(+5
Persistent, +3 Inherent)
Conditional Duration +10/+20 (+20 for Attack Powers)
Fixed Duration +(5 + 1/2 GP Score(Duration s.))
(NO LOS/Range/Conc req.)
Success Based Duration +(1/2GP Score (base Duration s.)) (=
Result Score + Base Duration score)


Thanks

Hey

As usual, I seem to have carpet-bombed when I wanted a surgical strike in asking for feedback. So, instead I will offer a shorter focused post/question to respond too.

Ok, as I said, I am putting together a "Universal Ability Profile" deal. Which is to provide a meta-system by which I can define the mechanics of and set the cost of all of a character's abilities as represented by his various Traits, including Attributes, Proficiencies, Advantages, Perks, and most importantly Metabilities/Powers.


Under this system, all of the abilities are designed by specifiying the values for each of seven properties that make up the UAP. These eight properties (and their abbreviations), Meta-Type (TYPE), Detectability(DET), Target(TGT), Range(RNG), Time(TIME), Mechanics (MECH), Effects (EFX), & Duration (DTN).

Each property is given a default value, which represents the "default" ability, this default ability is given a Cost Factor of zero, and follows the triangular progression (3,6,10,15,21,28,36,etc.)per GP Point bought for the Trait Score. Each Ability then can modify these values to reflect the ability. With modifiers that Enhance the abilities usefulness having a positive CF modifier, and those that limit it having a negative CF mod. (Where the mods provide a linear multiplier or faction of the cost, respectively.)

Oh yeah;
Default Ability Profile
============================================

Perform a (meta-type) [TYPE] Act that is (visibly, audibly & meta)
[Detectable (DET)]on a (single Obj/Ind) [Target (TGT)] at (TS Meters)
[Range (RNG)]by taking (1 second) [Time (TIME)] and making (Outcome Test) [Mechanics (MECH) to apply Result Score to (General
Action) [Effects (EFX)] with a (instant) [Duration (DTN)].

So I have a lengthy list of mods for TYPE, TIME, RNG, TGT, MECH, DTN, as you have seen, but what I am wanting his help on coming up with a good set of generic/universal Effect Templates for the EFX The idea is to apply various cost modifiers to these abilities based on my arbritrary standard of how effective they are. Oh yeah, CF's represent 1/10th modifiers to cost. So Costfactor 7 would increase cost by 700%, relative to triangular progression, so first point could cost 24,then 42, 70, 105, etc.
for Trait Score.

OK, so here are the Effect Templates i considered so far.

General Action Effect +0
-------------------------------
Allows User to perform action of some Scope. Includes;
Use/Operation - Succesfully use/Operate Item (weapons/Vehicles/Equipment)
Knowledge/Information Effect - Gain some knowledge/Information
Build/Repair - Successfully build or repair item
Complementary Action - Provides Modifier to another Act by character.
Prevents Action - Prevents subject from taking particular Act or use of
some ability.
Interaction Effect - Allows Charm/Persuasion/Interrogation/Intimidation
Resistance Action- Allows character to resist effects of hazard/etc.
General Action - Allows character to perform some action.

The Effect Template then determines how the Success Result Score is used to determine success of action. Usually by comparing the Persona's Success Result Score to the Opposing Score to determine level of Success where necessary. Or otherwise using the Result Score against a GP Score.

Damage Effect +10
-------------------------------------
Apply attack with Trait Score PEN & TS DMG against target's
Defenses.

Defensive Effect +5
--------------------------------------
Resist Penetration of attack by Defense Rating(DR).

Difficulty Modifier Effect +5
-------------------------------
Apply DM Modifier to subject/target equal
to Result Score

Enhanced Movement Effect +5
------------------------------------------
Allows Target to add TS(m.) to his relevant MOVE Score.

Super Movement Effect +10
-------------------------------------
Allows Target to increase his relevant MOVE Score by TS (multiplies move)

Knack Effect +5
------------------------------------------
Target adds TS to Test Total & Success Total of Outcome Test within it's scope

Modify Trait Score Effect +20
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Can Add or Subtract from Trait Score of Subject.

Creation Effect +30
------------------------------------------
Create TS(kg.) of Object of no more than 1/2 TS Size, with Abilities
limited sum total of TS

Transformation Effect +30
-------------------------------------------
Transform TS(kg.) of Object of no more than 1/2 TS Size, altering abilities
with a limited sum total of TS



Anyway, that should give you an idea of what I am looking for help in developing. A generic Effect of abilities in terms of mechanics. Anyhelp is appreciated, though it looks like I made this one too long too, sigh.

I'm having trouble following (not certain why triangular progression either), but if I'm getting your question...

The costs seem different in your first post than in your second. For example, Damage Effect and Defensive Effect are both + 5 in the first post, but in the second Damage Effect is + 10. Depends on how it plays out for you, but I would even them out if not make Defensive Effect the more expensive of the two (grenades are easier to get than the ability to ignore grenades).

I assume these all can be made more powerful by increasing the cost, based off the base cost? If true, I'd combine Enhancement Movement Effect and Super Movement Effect with some sort of arcane computation to determine to bonus based off level of Movement Effect purchased, seeing as how crunchy doesn't look like something you are trying to avoid. Movement Effect could then be extended to include teleportation (something missing on the list), with the level determining range/time for teleportation. I'd also be tempted to keep swimming, flight, tunneling, and other such stuff in Movement Effect, as they just modify the effectiveness of movement.

And...If I'm assuming what Knowledge/Information Effect is correct, I'd make that cost even more than Creation Effect - especially if that Effect can reflect seeing into the past, mind reading or clairvoyance.

If telekinesis like effects could said to be a Use/Operation Effect at extended range I won't point it out.

...All this is assuming I understood your question.

I like what you're doing here. Pretty rough right now, but I see how you're taking all the Hero System mechanics and generalizing them to an even more mechanical extent. I've often thought about doing that myself, and am intrigued by your attempt. For example, all defensive powers like Force field, Force Wall, Armor, Power Defense, etc, are all the same ability just with diferent limitations. It makes sense to treat them this way. And I like that you require most Advantages and Lims to be addressed in the basic profile.

That all said, I'm not seeing where Limitations come in. Advantages that don't affect the basic profile?

Your second list of effects seems better. I like that you included the "Modify Traits" one, as this reflects the Hero "adjustment" powers. OTOH, the best way to generalize all this is to consider attacks to be "drains" on abilities like BODY. Thereby rolling attacks and adjustment powers together into a more general mechanical category. After all, they work pretty much identically, don't they?

On another front, how are you going to handle "Multiple Attack" abilities like autofire. The argument that seems to make the most sense to me in terms of generalization would be to allow for use times to be less than "one phase". That is, instead of saying that you can attack many times on one phase, this would effectively increase your SPD instead. Or something to that effect. It's hard to comment without knowing how initiative works.

On cost, why the escallating costs? This is going to cause all sorts of problems, especially when you have to consider the idea of the use of multiple powers for attacks. Why buy the "8d" attack for 55, when you can buy 8 "1d" attacks for 24 and use them all at once? Basically the stacking powers rules in Hero Fifth are a breakthrough in the understanding of the costs of multiple powers in terms of their cross effectiveness. Essentially the result is that one can only use a linear scale, or disallow multiple simultaneous power use. The problem with the latter is that makes things like complex spells impossible, not to mention other philosophical problems.

I'd go back to linear. I'd also challenge you to keep effects linear when possible. Otherwise you'll get the Hero System, exponential to linear problems with things like throwing, damage vs. Def, etc, not to mention the granularity problems. That all said, I'm imagining requiring a spreadsheet to build these abilities.

BTW, I'm hoping that you decide to include all abilities under this system, meaning that there ought not to be any "skills" or "Stats", just this system, which can handle all that if done correctly, IMO. Single system, easy to use in play.

Mike

Each Ability then can modify these values to reflect the ability. With modifiers that Enhance the abilities usefulness having a positive CF modifier, and those that limit it having a negative CF mod. (Where the mods provide a linear multiplier or faction of the cost, respectively

Mike Holmes wrote: On another front, how are you going to handle "Multiple Attack" abilities like autofire. The argument that seems to make the most sense to me in terms of generalization would be to allow for use times to be less than "one phase". That is, instead of saying that you can attack many times on one phase, this would effectively increase your SPD instead. Or something to that effect. It's hard to comment without knowing how initiative works.

Jason, Mike, Doc Velocity


Hey, thanks for your comments & help. I will here attempt to explain my design notes, since like only I seem to know what class they are for:)

First, I am going to review my basic concept so far with, gasp, some examples, to hopefully make things clearer. Now, all of this number wrangling revolves around the game mechanics of course, you can find a copy of the core mechanics PDF here, should you want to check my footnotes. Since much of this is bound up in the way the mechanics work. They strongly resemble DC Heroes/Masterbook in that they revolve around manipulating and convering GP Scores or Result/Effect Scores Also, the relation to the Core Table and underlying log scale of Trait Scores,is used to convert among different Values and such. THis is meant to make the system seamless and robust. Essentially EFX templates are different ways you can use the Result Score to produce mechanical effects in the game, i.e. pretty highly abstracted, even more so than Hero.

(Quick explanation of CORE Table system, it is based on a 10 points to a factor of 10 exponential scale, Repeating the GP Score/Value progression below)

GP Score Value.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
0 1.0
1 1.25
2 1.6
3 2.0
4 2.5
5 3.25
6 4.0
7 5.0
8 6.5
9 8.0
10 10.0
(values above or below these multiply or divide by a factor of 10 respectively.)

Ok. Let me provide an example of how the System works by making up an Energy Blast Power.

First, we define ability by altering the "Default values" of each property of the Default Ability Definition. Which simply provides the default, or assumed values/definitions for each of the eight 'ability' elements, Metatype (TYPE),Detectability (DET), Target (TGT), Range (RNG),Time (TIME), Mechanics (MECH),Effects (EFX),& Duration (DTN). An abilities Cost Factor, which starts at zero for each element set at the default values, is adjusted by each default value changed whether that change makes the ability more effective(less time, greater range, longer duration) (Enhancement) or less effective (Limitation) (more time to use, shorter range, shorter duration.)

Default Ability Definition
===============================================

Perform a (meta-type) [TYPE] Act that is (visibly, audibly & meta)
[Detectable (DET)]on a (single Obj/Ind) [Target (TGT)] at (TS Meters)
[Range (RNG)]by taking (1 second) [Time (TIME)] and making (Outcome
Test) [Mechanics (MECH) to apply Result Score to (General Action)
[Effects (EFX)] with a (instant) [Duration (DTN)].

(Note at present I rewrote the MECH section, which basically sets what scores you use and what type of Test, Outcome Test, you have to roll dice pitting variables to determine success, Comparision Test, automatic Success equal to Acting Score, etc. I was thinking to just roll this into the Effect section, but I'm not sure they have to be closely related. I could concieve of a movement power say, that works as an Outcome Test, dependent on your Success each time, instead of being a default you can move x meters per second or whatever. By same token, you could concievaly have an attack power that works as a comparison test type mechanic. Feel My WRATH mortals, and like everyone in range/area suffers an attack of such an effect. This is sort of how Hazards like fire or poison work, variable damage, but no targeting. You could go farther though and have set damage. Everyone takes PEN:30(1000.0) DMG:30(1000.0) attack against defense, no trying to hit or shit. )


My Guys Cosmic Energy Blast
----------------------------------------------------------
Property- Value - CF Modifier
TYPE- Physical (Mutant Powers) - +0 CF
DET - standard Detectability - +0 CF
TGT - Object/Individual +0 CF
RNG - Ranged ( TS(m.)) +0 CF
TIME - Half Phase Action - +5 CF
MECH - Acting Score - Body: DX +0 CF
Opposing Score - Range/Speed +0 CF
SDL - Body:DX +0 CF
FDL - OS +0 CF
AF - PEN/DMG of attack +0 CF
EFX - Apply Attack with PEN: TS+3 DMG:TS +0 CF
against opponents Defenses/Body condition
DTN - Instant +0 CF

So the Total CF would 5 (1.5x Triangular Progression Cost.)

If I bought a Trait Score of 20 for my Attack. It Would have a
Range equal to the number of meters corresponding to a GP Score of 20, which is 100 Meters, a base Accuracy = +10, and the effect would be
apply an Attack with a PEN: 16(40.0) DMG:20(100.0) against an opponent's Physical Defense. I'd make an Outcome Test pitting Body: DX against 10 + 1/2 GP Score (Range+Speed)+SIZE + Mods, the standard ranged attack Opposing Score, damage would be determined on the success of this attack using the PEN/DMG as an Ability Factor/Effect Score as would be explained in the combat section. A Trait Score of 20 would cost

(20 + 1) * (20+2)/2 * (1+ 5/10) = 347 Points. Under the system as presented.


Ok, as another example and to inform some questions. My General Action Effect was basically how to account for "Skills/Attributes". Basically I posit that they allow the character to perform an action of some scope for some effect. The categories were common Skill types I coud think off.

So lets do Archery (The actual Proficiency system will have stacked effects based on scope of ability(I do levels of "specializtion called Skill/specialty/Familiarity, as a crunchy fine detail thing at present.), basically done with some customs limits I will black magic later.)

Archery
----------------------------------------------------------
Property- Value - CF Modifier
TYPE- Physical (Combat/Athletics) - +0 CF
DET - standard Detectability - +0 CF
TGT - Object +0 CF
RNG - No Range (RNG/Acc is based on Prop)-5 CF (this is ability to use bow, which is only in hand.)
TIME - Half Phase Action - +5 CF
MECH - AS - Body:DX aptitude + TS +0 CF
Opposing Score - Range/Speed +0 CF
SDL - Body:DX +0 CF
FDL - OS +0 CF
AF - PEN/DMG of attack +0 CF
EFX - Operation/Use Effect +0 CF
Use bow to make an Attack
Action, Effects based on Prop of Bow.
DTN - Instant +0 CF

Now additional Limitations would be Requires Bow & Arrows (umm -10 maybe) Enhancment: Effects based on Bow (say +10) or something similar. (Hmm. need more thought on how to do this. All use/Operation Skills would only allow use of a Gadget/Prop with effects dependent on ability. So no Prop, skills is useless, and overall Effect of ability is dependent on Prop.

So it would have Cost Factor 0, so a Proficiency of 7 in it would cost 36 points.

So I'd buy Bow Skill of say 7 (well trained) add it to my
Body: DX Aptitude (1/2 of Body: DX of 12 say) to get acting Score of 13.
How effective attack depends on nature of bow and stuff.

Allright, that is operation of basic system concept. Next post I will answer specific questions and comments.

Thanks.

cruciel wrote: I'm having trouble following (not certain why triangular progression either), but if I'm getting your question... I assume these all can be made more powerful by increasing the cost, based off the base cost?

cruciel wrote:
The costs seem different in your first post than in your second. For example, Damage Effect and Defensive Effect are both + 5 in the first post, but in the second Damage Effect is + 10. Depends on how it plays out for you, but I would even them out if not make Defensive Effect the more expensive of the two (grenades are easier to get than the ability to ignore grenades).

cruciel wrote:
I assume these all can be made more powerful by increasing the cost, based off the base cost? If true, I'd combine Enhancement Movement Effect and Super Movement Effect with some sort of arcane computation to determine to bonus based off level of Movement Effect purchased, seeing as how crunchy doesn't look like something you are trying to avoid. Movement Effect could then be extended to include teleportation (something missing on the list), with the level determining range/time for teleportation. I'd also be tempted to keep swimming, flight, tunneling, and other such stuff in Movement Effect, as they just modify the effectiveness of movement.

cruciel wrote:
And...If I'm assuming what Knowledge/Information Effect is correct, I'd make that cost even more than Creation Effect - especially if that Effect can reflect seeing into the past, mind reading or clairvoyance.

cruciel wrote:
If telekinesis like effects could said to be a Use/Operation Effect at extended range I won't point it out.

Mike Holmes wrote: I like what you're doing here. Pretty rough right now, but I see how you're taking all the Hero System mechanics and generalizing them to an even more mechanical extent. I've often thought about doing that myself, and am intrigued by your attempt. For example, all defensive powers like Force field, Force Wall, Armor, Power Defense, etc, are all the same ability just with diferent limitations. It makes sense to treat them this way. And I like that you require most Advantages and Lims to be addressed in the basic profile.

Mike Holmes wrote:
That all said, I'm not seeing where Limitations come in. Advantages that don't affect the basic profile?

Mike Holmes wrote:
Your second list of effects seems better. I like that you included the "Modify Traits" one, as this reflects the Hero "adjustment" powers. OTOH, the best way to generalize all this is to consider attacks to be "drains" on abilities like BODY. Thereby rolling attacks and adjustment powers together into a more general mechanical category. After all, they work pretty much identically, don't they?

Mike Holmes wrote:
On another front, how are you going to handle "Multiple Attack" abilities like autofire. The argument that seems to make the most sense to me in terms of generalization would be to allow for use times to be less than "one phase". That is, instead of saying that you can attack many times on one phase, this would effectively increase your SPD instead. Or something to that effect. It's hard to comment without knowing how initiative works.

Mike Holmes wrote:
On cost, why the escallating costs? This is going to cause all sorts of problems, especially when you have to consider the idea of the use of multiple powers for attacks. Why buy the "8d" attack for 55, when you can buy 8 "1d" attacks for 24 and use them all at once? Basically the stacking powers rules in Hero Fifth are a breakthrough in the understanding of the costs of multiple powers in terms of their cross effectiveness. Essentially the result is that one can only use a linear scale, or disallow multiple simultaneous power use. The problem with the latter is that makes things like complex spells impossible, not to mention other philosophical problems.

Mike Holmes wrote:
I'd go back to linear. I'd also challenge you to keep effects linear when possible. Otherwise you'll get the Hero System, exponential to linear problems with things like throwing, damage vs. Def, etc, not to mention the granularity problems. That all said, I'm imagining requiring a spreadsheet to build these abilities.

Mike Holmes wrote:
BTW, I'm hoping that you decide to include all abilities under this system, meaning that there ought not to be any "skills" or "Stats", just this system, which can handle all that if done correctly, IMO. Single system, easy to use in play.

As I'm leaving for Mexico in 3 hours I don't have much time for a decent response...I'll just comment on what leapt out at me.

I'm having trouble thinking of how you could tie a skill into the same effect used to generate spells (excluding an all bonus/penalty system) as the amount of functionality is quite different. For stats/skills/etc I'd simply define three levels of scope for skills. Wide Scope + 25 (stats, like dex), Narrow Scope + 5 (skills, like melee), and Fine Scope + 1 (specific skills, like poleaxe). Assignment into these categories is going to be sort of eyeballing it no matter what. I'm of the opinion more than three relative categories is harder to convey to a reader (I had a discussion with someone once, wish I could remember who, and the result was that the trend may simply be how thinking is influenced in western culture; either way...).

RobMuadib wrote: DAMAGE TYPES (DMG TYPE)
Damage is several types, representing the mechanism by which the
attack type affects the target. The DAMAGE Types are listed below.

Damage Type Example
Impact(IM) Punches,Kicks,Strikes,Stomps,Tramples,etc
Blunt(BL) Clubs, Maces,Explosive Concussion
Crushing(CR) Flails,Morning Stars, Spiked Bats,etc
Cutting(CT) Most Swords, Knifes, light edged weapons
Chopping(CH) Axes,Pole arms, Heavy Edged Weapons
Piercing(PC) Light Pointed Thrusting Weapon(Rapiers,Knifes)
Puncturing(PT) Heavy Pointed Weapons(Spears, Picks, Lances,etc.)
Ballistic (BC) High Speed Low Mass Projectiles
Beam (BM) Lasers, Masers, Blasters, Plasma weapons, Particle Beams, etc

I Still need to decide if I am going to mirror the PEN/DMG element for Mental & Psyche Damage as well. I probably will just for symmetry's sake. As I already mirror how the damage conditions work. BUt that brings up the idea of Mental and Psychic Damage types, which would vary in PEN/DMG, "Blunt Trauma", and wounding/damage effects. Hmm, would be flavorful where necessary. Hmm.

cruciel wrote: As I'm leaving for Mexico in 3 hours I don't have much time for a decent response...I'll just comment on what leapt out at me.

cruciel wrote:
I'm having trouble thinking of how you could tie a skill into the same effect used to generate spells (excluding an all bonus/penalty system) as the amount of functionality is quite different.

cruciel wrote:
For stats/skills/etc I'd simply define three levels of scope for skills. Wide Scope + 25 (stats, like dex), Narrow Scope + 5 (skills, like melee), and Fine Scope + 1 (specific skills, like poleaxe). Assignment into these categories is going to be sort of eyeballing it no matter what. I'm of the opinion more than three relative categories is harder to convey to a reader (I had a discussion with someone once, wish I could remember who, and the result was that the trend may simply be how thinking is influenced in western culture; either way...).

RobMuadib wrote:
This is stylistic, but I would personal combine many of these categories because many of the listed weapons could be used in different ways (impact/blunt/crushing and cutting/chopping/piercing/puncturing). Or, if you don't combine them I would seperate many of the items in Beam; the differences in armor effects for lasers and plasma weapons seems a lot bigger than the differences for cutting and piercing. You also seem to be missing consuming/burning damage types like heat, cold, electrocution, and corrosive substances/chemical burns. Also, are you going to resolve toxins (disease/poison) as damage? Fatigue/Exhaustion (which some toxins might cause)?

RobMuadib wrote:
I like the idea of Mental and Psychic damage; mental for psionic blasts and such, psychic for going insane (even if the wording seems backwards to me).

I think this is key:

In terms of effect, there isn't that much difference, they would both let you open a Lock of some difficulty relative to the opposing score or your success result score. Thus they only differ in details.

RobMuadib wrote: Oooh, sounds like fun, hope you had a good time, and thanks for your comments.

So I guess in part what I am asking is how to define a Skill in terms of effects, to create a skill effect template, and similar for Attribute. You bring up a good point in your example of magic spells versus skills, such as what is the difference between say a lock-pick skill and a "Knock" spell. Good question.

In terms of effect, there isn't that much difference, they would both let you open a Lock of some difficulty relative to the opposing score or your success result score. Thus they only differ in details.

What do you guys think of that idea?

Basically, I provided an overdetailed wankfest of damage types that differ in three different characteristics based on their mechanisms. Passive Defense Susceptibility, Blunt Trauma likelihood, and Tissue Damage modifier. I may move that stuff to optional detail rules.

Mike Holmes wrote: I think this is key:

In terms of effect, there isn't that much difference, they would both let you open a Lock of some difficulty relative to the opposing score or your success result score. Thus they only differ in details.

I'd only have them differ at all in the description, and in the specific application chosen. Much like you describe, though, some versions of the knock spell might just require a standard contested roll. If this is an Effects First design, then there really is no difference between skills and spells other than the mechanics that you choose to simulate them. So I don't see any need for an artificial division between them. They ought to all be one thing designed under one system. Yes, your examples can show how skills should tend to, say, take more time, and the like. But that's no different from saying that a magic ritual should take more time than a quick spell. All of these should be things that you can create from the same ruleset.

Mike Holmes wrote:
In terms of the armor/damage thing, it makes sense to me that you try to extend these ideas into more universal concepts. It seems that "PD" is just an augment to the resistance roll to avoid being hit. The damage reduction ability is just the stat you roll to avoid the energy inflicted from becoming actual wounds. So maybe you'd roll the armor's rating augmented by the character's toughness (or whatever), or vice versa.

That makes the concept more expandable. A Belief "Skill" or ability, or a Philosophy ability might be usable as "Mental PD" or something to augment resistance to mental damage, for instance. See what I'm getting at? Expand the basic principles so that they cover everything.

Mike Holmes wrote:
I'd also like to see nothing be "required" per se. That is, Stats, to me, are just other abilities that most systems require. Ever notice, however, how in Hero System, a vehicle is just a character with less stats? Allow everything to be built off this one simple system. Then, instead of Stats, have suggestions in the example material of how to build, say, a person.

Mike Holmes wrote:
Also, if you can make it so that non-delineated areas are at a basic "default" that would make the game much simpler. That is, if all a player has to do to define something is to state how it's exceptional, then the work of creating the thing, be it a wall or a person, is much much easier.