... but not the way you think.

Hi everyone. In preperation for the release of HeroQuest I've been digging into Glorantha background material -- both online and in Hero Wars source books.

Now, several things. I'm digging the myths immensely. (Strangely, I feel like I'm bumping into some of the parts I loved most about Pendragon, but which I could never quite square with the strict timeframe/setting of Arthur's rise and fall.) I'm really into the idea of HeroQuesting, the clash of cultures, blood feuds and all of it.

But...

For a game with such a reputation for being this well thought out cultural gem, I'm a little confused as to what Seshnela is doing in the mix. I've always thought, from images I'd seen on old RQ products (never read them, passed passed them at the Compleat Strategist years ago), as well as all the RUNE stuff, and the kinds of myths, that the whole affair was rather Bronze Age.

But the pictures in the Glorantha HW sourcebook show plate mail. Bishops with big hooked staffs. The text refers to knights, The Church, what amounts to four Estates (the standard three, plus magicians...)

In another thread on these boards someone commented that the Well of Souls scenario seemed set less in Glorantha and more in European middle ages.

Well? Isn't Seshnela the European High Ages?

I'm assuming I'm missing something here, but it seems kind of mishmassy. I'm not sure if I'm mapping too literally (and without enough real history knowledge perhaps), my own knowledge of how neighboring cultures tend to influence each other, but it seems odd that Seshnela is the way it is. When I thought of Heroquest I though of Beowolf, Vikings, old Celtic Cattle raids. And now I seem to have bumped into... Pendragon.

I'd hate to think it was shoved in there to, you know, make the kids happy. So, someone, talk to me. Over in the East, yeah things are odd in relation to Dragon Pass as well.... but there's a few hundred miles of wasteland sperating them. Do the folks in Seshnela use magic to create a culture that looks like something out of 15th century Europe. Is the art in the book overstating the case? Or do things like this, you know, happen all the time in history?

Thanks for any info anyone can toss my way.

Thanks,

Christopher

(By the way, I'm not indignant about any of this... just confused and looking for clues.)

Christopher Kubasik wrote: For a game with such a reputation for being this well thought out cultural gem, I'm a little confused as to what Seshnela is doing in the mix. I've always thought, from images I'd seen on old RQ products (never read them, passed passed them at the Compleat Strategist years ago), as well as all the RUNE stuff, and the kinds of myths, that the whole affair was rather Bronze Age.

But the pictures in the Glorantha HW sourcebook show plate mail. Bishops with big hooked staffs. The text refers to knights, The Church, what amounts to four Estates (the standard three, plus magicians...)

In another thread on these boards someone commented that the Well of Souls scenario seemed set less in Glorantha and more in European middle ages.

Well? Isn't Seshnela the European High Ages?

moonbroth wrote:

Christopher Kubasik wrote: Isn't Seshnela the European High Ages?

Anyway, there's plenty more where that came from if you have any specific issues to discuss after reading my article.

Hi Nick,

Thanks so much for the link. I'm about to shoot over there right now to read it.

But before I go, I'll ask you: Tell me more about the "not-really" Bronze Age. Everyone I've ever known speak of RQ always described it as Bronze Age -- even if only to say, "I'm really not interested in a Bronze Age setting." But I now realize I haven't even begun to scratch the surface of what I'm getting into. So I'm all ears.

Christopher

Hi Nick,

Just got back from reading your essay. Thanks. You're approach is the one I was thinking of taking -- less shiny High Middle Ages, more dark, feudal ages.

Other options leap up like weeds, of course.

1) Cut the damn bits out I don't like and re-write Glorantha history and cultures.

2) Keep 'em. As you point it, it's cool when you think of there being slightly advanced cultures -- as opposed to there being these unexpected backwaters. The thought of Barbarians wandering into Seshnela strikes me as very cool. But, oddly, PC knights hitting Dragon Pass might feel like their slumming.

3) But even as I write that -- no. You get to play a "Bronze Age" spin on Clavell's Shogun, where the knights "know" they're better than the barbarians, but because of social ties of one kind or another start going "native" -- with respect or despair -- or have to actively resist their new "home." Hmmm. Do they stay true the invisible god, or give into the Storm Gods -- also of power. Do they enjoy their new found raging freedom, or feel guilty about it. (Hey! I think I'm getting the hang of this Glorantha thing!)

Anyway, we just cross posted five minutes ago, so I'm gonna check out the new links you provided.

Thanks again,

Christopher

Christopher Kubasik wrote: Tell me more about the "not-really" Bronze Age. Everyone I've ever known speak of RQ always described it as Bronze Age -- even if only to say, "I'm really not interested in a Bronze Age setting." But I now realize I haven't even begun to scratch the surface of what I'm getting into. So I'm all ears.

Christopher Kubasik wrote: The knights "know" they're better than the barbarians, but because of social ties of one kind or another start going "native" -- with respect or despair -- or have to actively resist their new "home." Hmmm. Do they stay true the invisible god, or give into the Storm Gods -- also of power. Do they enjoy their new found raging freedom, or feel guilty about it. (Hey! I think I'm getting the hang of this Glorantha thing!)

And just to follow on from Nick's post (with which I'd agree wholeheartedly), it is also worth noting that this is a two-way process. The Esvulari of Heortland, for example (south of Dragon Pass) provide an example of 'contamination' going the other way. Of Orlanthi stock but exposed to Western monotheism, they have evolved a Western(ish) style church with such saints as SS Worlath (= Orlanth), Ankormy (= Lhankor Mhy), etc.

The bottom line, though, is always to appreciate that while historical parallels have use, they also have severe limitations. And, everyone's Glorantha is their own: you are just as entitled to make the Seshnegi Carolingians who just happen to have plate armour, still in the process of building the feudal system, as Arthurians.

All the best

Mark

Christopher Kubasik wrote: When I thought of Heroquest I though of Beowolf, Vikings, old Celtic Cattle raids. And now I seem to have bumped into... Pendragon.

Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies.

I forgot to add 4) on my list of options above: ignore the west. Which seems to be what most folks have done. Central Genertela seems to be big enough for most folks, so these other places might never come into play.

This still brings me to question of *why* Seshnela is described the way it was. I don't mean in terms of in-history justification. I mean in terms of design, what did Greg & Crew see Glorantha getting out of it?

Right now I'm seeing Seshnela as much more of the Wales supplement for Pendragon: pretty harsh, still pretty wild. And yet, and yet... I can kind of see the appeal of the abruptly jarring cultures. If I flatten Seshnela out to be more "like" central Glorantha, you don't get that clear division. Which might be exactly why the world was designed this way.

Oh, and yes, ancient is the word that evokes a great deal more of what I was expecting than bronze. That's what I was expecting... and get for the most part. When I bumped into the platemail illustrations that's what jarred my thinking.

Take care,
Christopher

Hi Nick,

I just read your Western Heroquesting article.

Exactly!

And this brings me back to my point about Pendragon at the start of this thread: The dream-like, wander half a day away enter a quest of mythic proportion is exactly one fo the reasons I loved Pendragon so much. (And certain really cool game mechanics.)

I remember years ago trying to get my players into this mentality of "you're in reality and you're in a dream at the same time..." but I could never pull it off. (I think the detailed work on setting and literature in the rule book confound the players and kept making them think they had to get it "right" and "real".) But Glorantha seems to me, being mythic and all, clearly part dream even as it's material.

(I'm thinking now of a moment from Alan Moore's Promethea comic series, where the protaganist confuses "reality" and "material." One of the elder Promethea corrects her with something like this: "It's all 'real'. Imagination and material are both part of reality." They work on a continuum, and you can go to either extreme, but also hang along some place inbetween. It seems to me that this is exactly the thinking of Glorantha, with most people hovering toward one side or the other of the center, and then, every once in a while, pushing hard to "dreaming" reality in a heroquest. (Which begs the question: what is the opposite of heroquest reality?))

The "quests" of Pendragon is always what I wanted to focus on in *any* roleplaying game. (Which, somehow, goes back to my awkward threads about religious thinking on the RPG theory board a few months back. I'm not really interested in modelling "material" -- which is what most RPGs aspire to. I want to model *story* -- which is where material and imagination meet and is a whole different kettle of snarks.)

I'm beginning to see, since Heroquesting is the top of the pyramid for Gloranthian storytelling, how exploring this the heroquest from the perspective of different cultures might well be a vital element of design. Thus the desire for strikingly different cultures.

Thanks again,

Christopher

Christopher Kubasik wrote: This still brings me to question of *why* Seshnela is described the way it was. I don't mean in terms of in-history justification. I mean in terms of design, what did Greg & Crew see Glorantha getting out of it?

Hi Nick,

And that makes perfect sense to me now. As I said in my last post, I see now that Glorantha is about exploring heroquests from unique and different religious and cultural points of view. This is very exciting.

It ties in, sort of, to several threads up north, about RPGing from alien points of view. Using the HQ rules, and heroquesting in particular, players are given a "template" for adventuring, but offered a chance to use that template from from different points of view. Are they completely alien to "humanity." No. But Greg & Co. have a built a world where these cultural elements are alien to each other which still offers a lot of leg room to see the world in new, fresh and unique ways.

It seems to me that Glorantha is the way it is because it is about contradictory points of view. Like our own, of course, be even more so because the history of Glorantha is constantly alive with these points of view ('gods') tearing the world apart and stitching it back together again. Even the wide gaps between tech and social structure make sense to me now, because Glorantha is a world driven to extremes on this issue -- both in terms of thematic meta-game design and in-game cosmological logic.

So, thanks so much. You've really cracked this one open for me. And you've pointed me to some excellent Glorantha resources.

Thanks,
Christopher

I want to also thank you, Nick, for linking to some great Glorantha resources. And thanks, Christopher, for starting this thread. Before this, I was somewhat put off by Western Genertela. I pretty much skipped over those parts of the Hero Wars Glorantha book & went straight to the Lunar Empire, which I was immediately hooked on. But thanks to this thread, I've gone back & started reading the chapters on Seshnela, Ralios, & Fronela--& damn if I'm not at least as intrigued by the sorcerous west as I am by the theistic center. (Of course, I also really, really want to run a mystical Kralorela wuxia game....) Now, I've been a fan of Arthurian legends since I was a wee lad, & interested in the Dark Ages & Medieval Europe for a long, long time, so I guess I'm surprised I wasn't interested in Medieval Glorantha sooner.

I was thinking of running a Lunar narrative after HeroQuest comes out, but now I may have to switch to somewhere in the west...

Anyway, great thread.

Hi Josh,

And what I'm thinking, as I come to appreciate the design -- of both the game and Glorantha -- is how story-centered narrativist play can really make Glorantha shine.

Imagine that instead of pursuing the dream of the endless "campain" a group focused on a solid, narrativist story. Once the story is wrapped up (Kickers resolved, whatnot), the group could of course set up another story with the same characters. One could even set up a story with the same characters in a different setting to get that clash-of-cultures thing going.

But, stranger and very HQ, one could just swap out the characters and the setting and come up with a discrete story along narrativist lines. You're still playing HQ, you're still playing Glorantha, but it's competely different.

And, most importantly, the two stories refract back and forth upon each other. Even if you don't mean to do it, there will be moments when in the second story someone (if not everyone) thinks, "Like that moment when we were playing trolls, but this time we're doing it this way." And you could even set up the story -- a mything story the PCs need to recreate in some way -- that's the same "kind" of story seen from two different cultures eyes. Without needing to comment on it, you'll get a comparison of the two tales.

(Just like, essentially, the way Malory sets up different knights of different temperaments in similiar tales, revealing who they are by how they handle similiar encounters and challenges. These different cycles of stories make up a whole, even though they're woven by many unique and discrete tales. You could make up a "Glorantha cycle" by exploring, say, the theme of Mercy with parallel premises, setting three tales in three different cultures, bind 'em in one book and say, "This is The Tale Mercy in Glorantha.")

This just sounds fascinating. You get the variety of different stories in different settings, but don't feel like you're jump starting completely because the meta-settings and the meta-premise hold all tales in Glorantha together.

Neat, huh?

Take care,
Christopher

Christopher Kubasik wrote: Hi guys,

This still brings me to question of *why* Seshnela is described the way it was. I don't mean in terms of in-history justification. I mean in terms of design, what did Greg & Crew see Glorantha getting out of it?

Hi all,

Because people keep picking up on this one little section of sentences out of all the sentences I've written on this thread so far, let me offer something:

The tone, if you read them out loud, should be one not of indignation, but really excited curiosity.

In other words, it's not, "For god's sake, why did this happen?" but... well, what I wrote. I really wanted to know the design parameters so I could use them to my best advantage. Posts following the quoted statements suggest I've found some answers, which satisfy me at least, so we can perhaps focus on other matters. Or even let the thread drop.

Thanks,
Christopher

Christopher Kubasik wrote: You get to play a "Bronze Age" spin on Clavell's Shogun, where the knights "know" they're better than the barbarians, but because of social ties of one kind or another start going "native" -- with respect or despair -- or have to actively resist their new "home." Hmmm. Do they stay true the invisible god, or give into the Storm Gods -- also of power. Do they enjoy their new found raging freedom, or feel guilty about it. (Hey! I think I'm getting the hang of this Glorantha thing!)

Christopher said:

Neat, huh?

joshua neff wrote: Now, here's a question: are there any good Low Middle Ages movies out there that would be good inspirado for a Seshnela/Ralios/Fronela narrative? The only things I can think of are Monty Python & the Holy Grail & the first series of Blackadder--in terms of grungy Medieval setting, not in terms of mood or theme.

joshua neff wrote: (Of course, I also really, really want to run a mystical Kralorela wuxia game....)

I can't believe I forgot about Jabberwocky. Thanks, Nick.

joshua neff wrote:
Now, here's a question: are there any good Low Middle Ages movies out there that would be good inspirado for a Seshnela/Ralios/Fronela narrative? The only things I can think of are Monty Python & the Holy Grail & the first series of Blackadder--in terms of grungy Medieval setting, not in terms of mood or theme.

simon_hibbs wrote:

How about 'Flesh and Blood', directed by Paul Verhoeven and starring Rutger Hauer.

Or perhaps 'The name of The Rose', directed by Directed by Jean-Jacques Annaud and starring Sean Connery and Christian Slater.


Simon Hibbs

Hold on, I'm going to flip-flop a couple of times.

Flesh and Blood is distinctly Rennaisance. Including the use of a Petard in an early scene, and costumes to support it.

I keep getting the feeling that this "low medieval" can't resolve itself to any particular model and that it's actually a mishmash of 19th century romantic modeling that ends up being the cause of modern stuff like Excalibur. Which does seem to be totally at odds with the rest of the world in some ways.

OTOH, some part of me wants to buy it. First, I think that the term "Bronze Age" that's bandied about is abused here greatly. For one, I believe that Iron working is common knowledge across Glorantha. Societally we seem to have cultures as advanced as the Romans. If anything, medieval society was a step backwards in many ways from the heights of Roman civilization.

The point being, I don't really see any technological abnormalities here, nor societal advancements that seem out of place.

What seems odd is that these societies are juxtaposed against each other, which is something that we don't expect. Basically it's like expecting the Romans to run into medieval knights. Technologically and socially I have no problem with it. But as part of a fictional world, some side of me wants to rebel at some point and say that it's an obvious attempt to pander to differing desires; a kitchen sink appraoch. And to an extent all fantasy worlds have to have such similarities with the RW or literature such that we have touchpoints with them, so we can interact with them on some level. But is it too artificial seeming?

Fortunately, there's a solution. Simply stop looking at the countries as parallels. That is, Glorantha is deep enough, and well-written enough that if you consider the countries for what they are, and not what they're compared to for purposes of analogy, suddenly it's all good again. At least I can buy it on that level. They make platemail because they have iron, know how, have a feudal structure, and everything else you need to have platemail produced in a culture. The Romans had steam power, theoretically (presented and rejected); they could have done platemail if it had made sense to anyone at the time.

That said, what I wouldn't want to play would be Arthurian Legends in Lokarnos. I'd want to play Lokarnos sorts of Legends in Lokarnos, events that represented the culture as a unique experience. Otherwise I would get the sense that the world was only there in it's present form in order to deliver some parallel to literature. And that's not particularly interesting to me (though others might groove on it).

Mike

Hi Mike,

Just, for the record, note that "Bronze Age" hasn't been bandied about for about half the thread now. We cut it loose some time ago, and have been pretty much on the same page you're on.

That said, I think you bring up an excellent, excellent point about not trying to "map" real world anologies onto Glorantha cultures. This "mapping" only gives all the players at the table a chance to avoid digging into the culture of their characters, using a "short hand" of "Well, everyone knows it's like this," and not really having to sort out what "this" is.

My main concern was the kitchen sink problem -- always going back to, "Why is this all here?" The answer seems to be, as you suggest, "Because it is." Given that, what is the world actually like. That's what needs to be explored.

We can infer and "fill in" elements about these cultures from our assumptions about other cultures -- but only so much. The main guide needs to be what is already established. In other words, my goal will be to reach out to real world anologies when there is nothing at hand in the Glorantha material, and only grab at things which grow naturally from my understanding of the material at hand. To work from the analogies first is to short-circuit the whole process.

Take care,
Christopher

Christopher Kubasik wrote: That said, I think you bring up an excellent, excellent point about not trying to "map" real world anologies onto Glorantha cultures. This "mapping" only gives all the players at the table a chance to avoid digging into the culture of their characters, using a "short hand" of "Well, everyone knows it's like this," and not really having to sort out what "this" is.

My goal will be to reach out to real world anologies when there is nothing at hand in the Glorantha material, and only grab at things which grow naturally from my understanding of the material at hand. To work from the analogies first is to short-circuit the whole process.

Good morning everybody,

I want to thank everyone so much for their input on this thread. I came with specific questions and concerns, and now have the answers I was looking for.

However, the thread seems to be going in a bit of a circle now. So, in uniquely Forge fashion, I'm calling it closed.

Other thoughts about parrallels and references between Glorantha cultures and real world cultures can happily be taken up in whole new shiny threads.

Thanks again,

Christopher

moonbroth wrote:
* second only to Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey, the ultimate heroquest movie.

Hello,

This thread is closed, by Christopher. As the initiator of the thread, he has that privilege.

Please don't post to it again.

The Hero Quest has no official moderator beyond myself and Clinton, so it follows general Forge rules. See the Stickies in the Site Discussion forum for the netiquette involved.

Thanks,
Ron