Topic: [Promised Sands] Trinary System: A Critical Look
Started by: BenjaminRogers
Started on: 6/30/2003
Board: Indie Game Design
On 6/30/2003 at 8:44pm, BenjaminRogers wrote:
[Promised Sands] Trinary System: A Critical Look
Greetings,
Recently I've had a number of discussions--both online and off--regarding the number of skills we used in the Trinary System as seen in Promised Sands. Many of them are subtle differences of one another (i.e. Bluff, Acting, Deceit, Con, Persuasion, Presentation). The intent was to use the different skills as a means to show the subtlety of the character without relying upon specializations and such. Most of the skills can be used interchangeably--or with minor mechanical modification--with the specific flavor of the skill (whether you lie outright, by omission or by carefully crafting how you respond so that you tell the truth in a deceptive manner).
It seems this distinction has been lost on some.
Before I go through the Trinary System and make a few changes to create Trinary 1.1, I'd like to hear from other designers and developers on their take.
I realize that some of you may not be familiar with Promised Sands, so I'll make myself available to answer your questions--particularly where you may not have the book as a handy reference. :)
More information can be found here: Promised Sands Website
The complete skill list can be found here: Select "Skill Chart" for the PDF
Mechanically, the Success Value of a skill is determined as:
Skill Level (the points you put into the skill) + Controlling Attribute = Success Value (SV)
You need to roll under the SV with percentile dice and you have a mix of a "pool" die and a "check" die in a third D10 that is called the "Effect Die" (ED).
(Nutshell: Value can be exchanged between the ED and the Percentile dice by declaring before the roll for the exchange at 10:1 or after the roll for 5:1. The ED can only be increased if it is declared before the roll.)
I'll leave it at that until more questions come in--but there are some other nuances to the mechanic. It is certainly not as simple as a strictly percentile test as there are several ways to modify the roll of the D%.
On 6/30/2003 at 9:14pm, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
RE: [Promised Sands] Trinary System: A Critical Look
For future reference, Benjamin, "let's talk about this completed game" posts go in Theory, not Design.
You seems to be very enthusiastic about your lengthy skills list. I ask you: What is it that makes a proliferation of specific skills better than the freedom to interpret a shorter list of general skills or the freedom to create skills as desired?
On 6/30/2003 at 10:37pm, BenjaminRogers wrote:
RE: [Promised Sands] Trinary System: A Critical Look
Apologies for posting it here. Since I am actively in the process of working changes, I thought that would qualify. Again, apologies.
Shreyas Sampat
You seems to be very enthusiastic about your lengthy skills list. I ask you: What is it that makes a proliferation of specific skills better than the freedom to interpret a shorter list of general skills or the freedom to create skills as desired?
I'm not sure that it is "better". That's part of why I'm putting it forward here. When we were designing it, we thought that it would "make the subtle more obvious" by splitting them out as different skills. Many of our playtesters expressed that they didn't get a feel for the subtlety at first. When we expanded the skill lists, we asked about it and they responded that the subtle variations seemed a lot more intuitive with the skill expansion.
Those who give the game only a cursory glance--a "once-over"--have so far been the only ones to consider it a problem.
Everyone who has played the game--including those at the demos at Origins this past weekend--expressed that they had a strong sense of the subtleties through the differentiation of the skills.
As we move into another project, however, we will be cutting back on the skills for a number of reasions--not the least of which are cultures who are not as specific about their social interactions.
Do you think it would have been "better" to have used a "specialization" system to trim the lists? Relying upon Gamemaster and player creativity alone--without "seeding" that creativity with the framework of the skill list?
Is there a detriment to game play or to the ease of play to have an extensive skill list? Is there a benefit to skimpy skill lists? Does it enhance play?
From what I've seen, the larger/smaller skill lists don't seem to affect play--they really seem to affect character generation. This has been my experience and perception. What's yours?
On 6/30/2003 at 10:53pm, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
RE: [Promised Sands] Trinary System: A Critical Look
As Ron says, no blood no foul; if one of the mods thinks it's more appropriate elsewhere, they'll move it.
I think I phrased my question poorly; what I was asking about was your design goal, rather than any kind of objective evaluation. Sorry; I didn't mean to make my post sound like an attack. Nonetheless, you seem to have answered my question; thanks.
In answer to yours:
I have long been an advocate of 'trusting the players' to come up with creative applications of things. But there's definitely nothing wrong with long skill lists; in Shadowrun, I always find that looking at the example characters and their lists of non-active skills (skills that don't have hard rules made specifically for them, basically) helps me out in creating a character that fits the setting. On the other hand, it slows me down as well; the awareness that there are certain skills that are appropriate for a given character type in the setting makes me look harder for a way to slide my character in.
I have a big worry about lists and their presentation; I have not yet seen a list of skills/spells/feats/whatever in an RPG that did not make me want to turn the page. I would be concerned that a lot of your effort is lost on players like me who would just skip over the list and think, "Oh, I'll just make a character and then wrestle it into the system." Which, given what I know about Promised Sands, is probably not the best of ideas.
Also, unless you have a very thorough explanation of how each nuanced skill is different from those that are most closely related to it (I don't know if you do or not, so don't take this as an attack on your skill presentation, which for all I know could have some great features I haven't thought of), players might come into conflict about the consequences of a particular nuance on a particular situation. I don't know how often this happens, but it might be a think to think about.
On 6/30/2003 at 11:44pm, szilard wrote:
RE: [Promised Sands] Trinary System: A Critical Look
I'm not sure I am reading the skill chart correctly. My take is:
Column 1 - Skill
Column 2 - Controlling Attribute
Column 3+ - other skills that can be substituted for that skill
Is this correct?
If so, a couple questions (I'm trying to get a basic grasp of what you are doing here):
Is there some disadvantage to not possessing the exact skill needed? Is there any advantage to having Bluff, Deceit, AND Con that couldn't be had by having one of them?
Stuart
On 7/1/2003 at 11:05am, Tony Irwin wrote:
Re: [Promised Sands] Trinary System: A Critical Look
BenjaminRogers wrote: Greetings,
Recently I've had a number of discussions--both online and off--regarding the number of skills we used in the Trinary System as seen in Promised Sands. Many of them are subtle differences of one another (i.e. Bluff, Acting, Deceit, Con, Persuasion, Presentation). The intent was to use the different skills as a means to show the subtlety of the character without relying upon specializations and such. Most of the skills can be used interchangeably--or with minor mechanical modification--with the specific flavor of the skill (whether you lie outright, by omission or by carefully crafting how you respond so that you tell the truth in a deceptive manner).
It seems this distinction has been lost on some.
Hey Benjamin, I've been following some of the discussions of Burning Sands and my understanding is that overlapping skills usually represent cultural differences, is that right?
In that case I think its a wonderful idea! Would I be right in thinking you may once have been an L5R player? That game presented fabulous cultures that were "the same, but different" to the extent that a lot of player imagination went into finding colourful little ways to differentiate their characters from the next guy's.
Promised Sands looks great for that. Con/deceit/guile are all the same in that they are used for getting what you want, but they are different enough to make very big statements about the characters/cultures that use them. Cool - something as small as the way you lie can give clues to who you are.
I can see why people aren't getting it (of course I'm only assuming I am getting it - don't have the book). People's experience of RPGs may be such that they veiw skills as tools that they use to get what they (the player) want, either to create their preferred story outcomes (narrativist?) or overcome obstacles to their goals (gamist?) - in which case skills should be broad, flexible, open to new interpretations and out-of-character discussions at any moment.
If you play Promised Sands like my group played L5R way back when, then skills aren't something the player uses to get what they want in the game, skills are limits on the player's power in the game, strict guidelines on who this character is and the kind of things this character should be doing. In L5R I'd buy a character iaijutsu (fast draw dueling) instead of kenjustu (regular sword fighting) because it sent a helluva powerful message to everyone else about who my character is, and it gave me guidelines and rules on how to play this guy. (a message so powerful in fact, that you won't even understand it unless you played and loved L5R for years ;-) )
If that's the kind of thing you're aiming for then it sounds great and I'll be looking out a copy next pay day - there will always be people who just don't get it, but that's cool, different games for different people.
Is that what the skills in Promised Sands is about?
On 7/1/2003 at 3:39pm, Marco wrote:
RE: [Promised Sands] Trinary System: A Critical Look
I like defined skill lists.
If one person takes "walk silently, hide in shadows, and camouflage" as three different skills and another guy takes "stealth" there can be a problem.
Also: skill lists provide a framework for character generation that I like.
I don't have a problem with a lot of skills being similar either--having multiple avenues of approach to a given task (in this case, building the character I want to play) is, IME, beneficial.
-Marco
On 7/1/2003 at 5:43pm, BenjaminRogers wrote:
RE: [Promised Sands] Trinary System: A Critical Look
szilard wrote: I'm not sure I am reading the skill chart correctly. My take is:
Column 1 - Skill
Column 2 - Controlling Attribute
Column 3+ - other skills that can be substituted for that skill
Is this correct?
If so, a couple questions (I'm trying to get a basic grasp of what you are doing here):
Is there some disadvantage to not possessing the exact skill needed? Is there any advantage to having Bluff, Deceit, AND Con that couldn't be had by having one of them?
Actually, in the skill list as presented, the skills in columns 3+ are "prerequisites". In order to take the skill, you must know the skills in columns 3+. "Knowing" them means that you need at least 10 skill levels (plus attribute) invested in them.
There can be a disadvantage to not possessing a specific skill--but it would be a specific situation.
Can you have an advantage to having multiple skills of the same "type"? Yes. These can sometimes be combined or a bonus gained if you have more understanding. (Though the player may need to ask the Bard for this.) There are also Cascades. At the end of Character Generation, you can consult the cascades listed just prior to the skills and certain skills will provide a bonus to other skills in the list. (It's also the place to look for similar/overlapping skills.)
Example: The Skulae (a nomadic, tribal culture) considers a lie to be nearly unforgivable. In a recent game, one of the PCs who knew about the Skulae didn't want them to find out why he was on the run. When asked, he said, "I was a farmer. The crops didn't grow. I had to do something. I moved to the city. I ended up sold into slavery." Everything he said was true. He just didn't mention the part between "I moved to the city" and "I ended up sold into slavery"--namely, that nasty, "I robbed a rich nobleman, killed him to keep from being identified and forgot to kill his slave-girl who was hiding in his closet watching the whole thing and turned me in for her freedom."
He was using "Deceit". Telling them the complete truth--in a way that would distract them from the element he left out. If he didn't have the skill of Deceit, he could have rolled "Bluff", "Con" or even "Storytelling". I would probably have given him a -7 to -12 penalty depending on the skill he chose--but Deceit was perfect for the situation and required no modifiers.
In fact, if he had Storytelling, I would have given him a bonus of +7 or so to the tale.
I can't think of any situation that would require the use of a *specific* deception skill. The whole point of deception is to distract someone from the truth.
I once gave a character a roll on "Biology" to make an attack (when they played a character with zero combat skills) because with Biology, they would know the weak points of the body. They rolled at a -25--but they were still successful!
Tony Irwin wrote: my understanding is that overlapping skills usually represent cultural differences, is that right?
If that's the kind of thing you're aiming for then it sounds great and I'll be looking out a copy next pay day - there will always be people who just don't get it, but that's cool, different games for different people.
Is that what the skills in Promised Sands is about?
Yes, Tony. That's pretty much the big factor of overlapping skills. It's "how did you learn to do this parcticular thing in your culture". Even some of the occupations that you can pick up are culture specific--so that was taken into account when they were made.
I have played both 7th Sea (it was the "mainstay" of our gaming group for a long time) and L5R. I found the way cultures were separated to be quite intriguing and my exposure to it tainted my perspectives in no small part.
Promised Sands is all about cultures. It's all about perspectives. It's all about how the world can look completely different from the eyes of one person than from those of another.
We even mess with perceptions in the legends and histories of the world. We present these from different--and sometimes contradictory--perspectives. There are at least three legends presented about how the Ch'ak came to protect the Yethites and what the name "Troog" means. Which is true? Which do you believe in? Depends. Which cultures are you from? :)
Shreyas Sampat,
Your words are well received. :) Thank you for your comments. And, yes, what you have to say is quite valid. As I move forward with the tweaking I'm doing for Trinary System 1.1, I shall take what you say to heart. Anything else you have to offer would be humbly and pleasantly received! :)
Marco,
In the Subterfuge arena, we have "Stealth", "Stalk", "Unobtrusive", "Hide", "Camouflage", etc.
Each has it's "specific area"--but in many situations they can be swapped quite effectively.
Although Camouflage is specifically intended to be used with makeup, props or clothing, knowledge of it will help you with an understanding of light and shadow and you will be able to use it to sneak up on someone.
I'm curious if anyone has had a chance to look at Promised Sands directly and has any critical suggestions/advice to offer?
On 7/1/2003 at 6:00pm, Marco wrote:
RE: [Promised Sands] Trinary System: A Critical Look
Sure ... I'm talking about a hypothetical roll-your-own skill system where two players are at different levels of abstraction: that's where I was seeing potential for problems (and levels of abstraction are hard to quantify so enforcing it systemically can be difficult).
-Marco
On 7/3/2003 at 3:24pm, BenjaminRogers wrote:
RE: [Promised Sands] Trinary System: A Critical Look
Marco,
I'm not really following... Though I think I know what you mean...
In the percentile-based systems, there's a problem when PCs approach the logical limit of 100%.
Actually, that problem is resolved through the Effect Die (ED). In fact, 100 is not a logical limit in Promised Sands.
Because value can be exchanged for additional effect (ED), you can take deliberate negatives to your Success Value (SV) to produce increases in your ED.
Example:
Chance has a character with a skill of 105 in Archery. He takes a +2 to his ED (corresponding to a -20SV to his skill) and rolls [35:8] thus he is successful (he needed to roll less than 85) and has an ED of 8+2 = 10.
Kim steps up with a 95 in Archery. She takes a +4 to her ED (corresponding to a -40SV to her skill) and rolls [14:7]. She only needed a 55 or less to hit--and the +4ED gives her an overall effect of 11.
Is that what you were talking about?
On 7/3/2003 at 3:34pm, Marco wrote:
RE: [Promised Sands] Trinary System: A Critical Look
No no no ... I'm much simpler than that. The first response to your initial post said words to the effect of "what's good about a big skill list" vs. "interperting a shorter one" or "making them up."
I pointed out that I fairly like big skill lists and that:
a) interperting a small one may not differentiate characters sufficiently for some people's taste and
(more importantly)
b) making up skills can run into problems where one person is listing components and another person is listing broad categories (but possibly paying the same for them if any currency is involved).
That's all. If this still makes no sense, feel free to PM me :)
-Marco
On 7/10/2003 at 3:27pm, BenjaminRogers wrote:
RE: [Promised Sands] Trinary System: A Critical Look
Marco,
That makes a lot more sense, now.
As I trim up the skill list for Trinary 2.0, I'm doing it with an eye toward clear definitions (defining how detailed the skill and any specializations are).
Trinary 2.0 will be released with our next product line in 2004. All I can say about it right now is:
"Pirates. Native Americans. A demoralized, deforested Europe in the iron grip of the Church of the Seers."