Hi all,

Emmet first posed a suggestion for what might be called an Indie Games Web Portal on this thread. I've quoted the relevant posts below:

Emmet wrote: Maybe a mall of independantly hosted RPG websites. Something like a banner exchange, but more like a portal site. I like that idea...

WDFlores wrote: The first time I got here on The Forge I was looking around for some portal page so I can take a look at all the indie games with websites of their own. That would be nice idea, I think. Some form of this is already on the "Resources" link above. Still a dedicated portal could be a nice thing. One with categorisation that's more appropriate to indie games. Maybe that portal can have G, N, and S ratings or something. Example entry: "The Riddle of Steel - G:2 N:4 S:5" -- but then we'll have to bug some of the more experienced folks around here (maybe Ron, hehe) to rate 'em. :o)

It doesn't make sense to rate a game in terms of GNS - only play. Saying a game is Narrativist is a Forge shorthand for saying "this game tends to support Narrativist decisions in play."

Thanks for the correction, Ethan. No need really as that part was jokingly said. :) I'm sorry I wasn't so clear with my post. Here's another try:

Would an indie games web portal be feasible? Would anyone be interested in it as a venue for advertising their games? Is something like this even needed?

When I first stumbled on the Forge, it was really my first experience with the world of indie RPGs. So I tried to keep note of what published indie games might out there that I can try. There was no easy and direct way for me to do this as there was no central place collating the "intro blurbs" of different published indie games. I've looked at RPGnow but they don't seem to have an author-owned/independant games section. So, I was wondering, with all the great stuff coming from the indie scene, whether or not the time for such a venue (for advertising and selling indie games) had come. (Of course, maybe such a venue does already exist and I just don't know about it.)

- W.

The resource library really does a pretty good job of being a portal already. I get quite a few links to my Microwars game from there.

Hi I'm back from outer space. . .

I'd be willing to create this portal at my store32.net url. The idea I had would basically be structured thusly.

1. Independant RPG writers would have there own sites or collective of sites.

2. I, or others would build a portal that would have a banner, or cover art etc, and information on associates.

3. Associates would be required to link back to the portal in some relatively obvious way.

It would take me a bit of time to build this portal correctly. I don't think a normal message board would do at all, so some programming would be required. In that light, I could use assitance in getting it done quickly.

The resource portal is nifty for those that make use of the forge, but I didn't even know of it's existance until you mentioned it Clay. In addition the websites still stand on their own, they don't point back to the resource library to encourage a customer to check out other sites.

So my questions are this. If you would think this kind of system would benifit the Indie community, say aye or nay and what game / url you would like to promote. If you would be willing to make this kind of vision a reality, what can you help with.

For me Aye
I can write HTML and script in PHP. I can do some graphic design work.

As an extra credit problem, I could also offer links to game publishing related material, like artists for hire. Is that a good idea or would it dillute the site with extras? If a good idea, what other game related services would be good (game frendly POD providers?).

Yep. Sounds good. It's all exposure after all.

Simon
http://www.geocities.com/simonwashbourne/Beyond_Belief.html
The home of Lashings of Ginger Beer

Hey,

It seems to me that for an Indie RPG portal to be worthwhile, you'd need to provide some functionality that we're not currently getting from the Forge Resource Library. What about coming up with a set of XML tags that sites could incorporate into their page code that you would use to programmatically build your pages? You could build a page of Indie designer bios, one of game summaries, one of links to teaser ads for games, a subject index of links to games, etc. The trick for getting indie designers to participate would be implementing it such that web surfers are facilitated in getting to game sites from the content you aggregate this way.

Paul

I would also think the key to any portal actually working would be marketing it. Who's going to do that? I mean who cares if there is an island out there that no one knows about that neatly sums up the Indie publishers/games? The key is that the portal should really play a part in promoting the indie games industry as well as being an active member in forums that are NOT the Forge.

Just my 2 cents.
James

Paul, I like the ideas, but they are beyond my ability to do (at least quickly). If you know how to incorporate these functions, by all means I invite you to implement them.

However the functionality you would get that is unlike the resource library is this. The resource library is not there to service your website per se. It is more geared to service the Forge member. I'm not putting it down. It's a good thing, but it's not the way the Resource Library is structured.

So why do I say the Resource Library is not geared to service your website? After all it gives a description of your site/game and people go to your site. What could be better? However the Resource Library stops there. If a customer goes to the site directly above yours, you lose out. The person is unlikely to pick up where they left off. What I am trying to inarticulately say is even if a customer might buy/enjoy your game, they may not stumble across it. In fact they may not stumble across the forge at all. What if they stumble across my website, and don't find what they want. They can't get from mine to yours. A banner exchange is one way to solve that, but that’s a lot of banners on your site and my site and that's not the best thing for the look of a site.

So how about one banner that is not a hard sell. I would be more likely to click on a banner for an RPG portal than an individual game. That game's banner might not look interesting to me, but the promise of a number of games would.

Don't get rid of the Resource Library, don't try to replace the Forge. That's not what this is about. This is another tool for you and I to use.

James your comments are very accurate. However this is where a loose network of connected sites is simply stronger that individual sites. Find one and you have the potential to find the others. By necessity this may mean that a strong site may carry a weaker site for a while. But who is to say that that games popularity may wane and the formerly weak site is now the strong supporting the formerly strong site.

Advertising is often best done by word of mouth and the more mouths the more advertising but also given how the search engines are designed to rank a site in it's listings, the more pages that link to you, the better your ranking. Also the more pages that you link to also slightly increases your ranking. In effect you get a trickle down of better page ranks for everyone involved.

I know that rpghost does a very good job of providing a service to publishers, I'm not knocking that. I looked at your services and decided that I wanted my own site for ego/vanity/function in that order. There are a number of other ladies and gentlemen at the forge that have done the same. I would not be adverse to including rpghosts in the portal, as long as rpghost would be willing to link back to the portal.

The main difference though is that there would be no charge for the portal. I would get better exposure being listed just like every other site on the portal. As such I can only promise so much. rpghosts is a little more structured and undoubtedly spends more money to advertise but recives a bigger slice of the pie. Its all what people are willing to commit, vs. what they gain. This portal asks for a link back to the portal so that others can benifit and on the flip side, associates can benefit.

For me, I like the idea. I have heard from many RPG companies and the like that it would be great to have one place to handle reviews. If you could incorporate that into the site I think that would be a good draw. In addition, the reviews should be an independant thing. That is, you should not be able to write a review if you are connected to the game. Also, some sort of standard ranking system should be outlined. It does not have to be complex but it should be comprehesive.

I also would second the feed to other sites. It would be great to have bios, possibly automatic news feeds from the independant sites. So basically, not only feeds off the Indie portal but possible feeds from the individual site up to the indie portal with news and updates about the game. A two way street allowing communication and allowing building interest by revealing details of game efforts.

I am proficient in HTML, Java, ASP, JavaScript, and XML. My schedule is killer over the next few months but should loosen some around Sept-Oct.

Thanx,
Bill

Well why don't you guys team up with:
http://www.brettmb.com/digitalrpg/

Maybe even share the code or something? They have the same objectives there with a slightly more focused membership.

I have the domain RPGIndustry.com if you guys want this indie portal site to be a part of the RPGHost network I could consider that. You'd get a lot more exposure.

For the record, I am more or less an indie publisher too - http://www.MinionDevelopment.com has some of our products. I just don't push it much as I already play too many sides of the fence :)

James
P.S. I'm actually looking for someone interested in helping do a HyperKiller second edition.

I have the domain RPGIndustry.com if you guys want this indie portal site to be a part of the RPGHost network I could consider that. You'd get a lot more exposure.

I am proficient in HTML, Java, ASP, JavaScript, and XML. My schedule is killer over the next few months but should loosen some around Sept-Oct.

I just put up a page rating the indie RPGs that I own here:
http://www.nicholcentral.com/jon/rpg/indie/

Is this the sort of thing you are talking about?

Kind of, but a bit more fleshed out. The writer/publisher would be able to write the summery plus a piece of art or banner. Reviews would be entered by people that order the game.

Another thought I had bouncing around my head was that the first page would have a random listing of ten games. That way games named Zenophobia wouldn't end up last on an alphabetical lisiting and never get seen. On a listing that ordered as far as ranking, one person could give a bad review to start off with and a game would fall to the end of the list. If no one ever saw it again, it would stay there.

Emmett wrote: Kind of, but a bit more fleshed out. The writer/publisher would be able to write the summery plus a piece of art or banner. Reviews would be entered by people that order the game.

That sounds like what RPGnow and RPGmall does already

First, I'm not in any way looking for an argument or even a log discussion, but Cowboy, I just don't understand some of your comments.

Why do you loose ANY control posting your product to RPGNow/RPGMall? All we are is a store front. We inforce no controls over your product and you make up your own product image, description, demo, etc. If you sell just from us you can even still link to your website for all the usual fan fair.

We are not publishers. Why do you call us such? Why do you think you'll loose control over your product if you sell through us? We're just a store.

On top of this you want a portal, which would give you the same type of exposure as RPGNow/Mall does, but without the already 20,000 userbase. Not that I'm against a portal, just that I don't understand why you wouldn't want any/all exposure you can get?

As I said, I'm not looking to argue, just trying to understand your point of view so I can maybe address it.

James
RPGNow/RPGMall/RPGShop

Let me just throw in quick here. First off, I want to say I am pleased with RPGMall and how it works. I will say this, though, James, that you do put controls over aspects (no the publishing) of a company who does business with you. For example, you (rightfully so) restrict linking back to sites that offer their game for sale. Please do not read that as trying to pain RPGNow as an evil empire because I am not. It is a form of control though and I simply consider it the cost of doing business with RPGNow.


If I may through out an idea, I guess I am thinking such a portal would be more than what is provided on RPGMall. I don't think cowboy is suggesting the indie portal sell games but be a repository for reviews, designer bios, company bios and game write-ups. To an extent RPGMall allows this but in a far less sophisticated manner. I may cram everything into a single page but that becomes one really big page. 8-D

Just so my position is clear, I would have no problem with RPGNow/Mall providing these services but I realize that you guys need to sleep and eat so this might not be high on your priority list and understandably so.

Just my thoughts,
Bill

As I said, I can understand the need/desire for a portal and I'm all for it. That's not my point.

The one fact that we won't link back to your site if you don't sell exclusive with us is not a form of product control or loss of such. That's what I don't get... how do you loose control over your product by this one rule we do inforce?

Why is that what keeps some people from using RPGNow at all? Where is the sense in that? How many publishers out there refuse to sell at a hobby store cause they don't supply their customers with a phone number to order their product directly? Where is the difference? We're a store, you place your product on our shelf and we sell a good amount of it for you without you having to worry. You can still sell else where. You can still sell it directly on your own website. We simply just don't supply them with the 800 number to buy from you after they are in our store.

James

Let me stress James, all in friendly discussion mode. Remember, I am in RPGMall and believe in it. I intend to get hooked up with RPGNow when I get the products in place that will work best for both of us. That said, I think cowboy (not putting words in his mouth) meant that you are enforcing a manner of control over his effort.

One part of the effort has to be selling. Another is a persons website. You enforce a manner of control over these. Again, I say it is a cost of doing business and that is NOT a bad thing it is merely a cost. Some would find it too high. I find it graciously low.

As for a LGS supplying direct order info. In a way they do for us. We put our site in our book and our site links to RPGMall. The customer could look in our book and decide to try and find it cheaper on the net and end up at our site the RPGMall and buy it there. That said, I cna still see it your way to limit traffic off your site and into another that sells competing products. B&M stores are feeling the same about RPGNow and the PDF sales that they believe are stealing traffic from their stores. But that is for another thread.

Hopefully this helps some...
Bill

Sorry for not chiming in, I was working my day job.

HinterWelt speaks well for me in my absence. Perhapse I can be more sussinct but I'm not entirely sure that I can. First is the notion of control, it really is kind of a silly thing, but I'm not talking about control of the game itself, I am talking about the portrayal of the game on the website. Other than a write up and cover art, I don't control what the customer sees. It's about as silly as me objecting to someone else dressing my child even if I knew the person had good taste, just not my taste. I don't really have a better way of saying why I go with my own website.

As far as the "publisher" question. A publisher is an entity that publishes, or distributes a work. In that light RPGmall/now is a publisher you are the delivery device in this model. Yes you are also a store but old terms kind of get all muddled on the interweb. (Oddly, does that make the Browser the store? Never mind I don't want to think about it.)

James, if this is bothering you, PM or email me.

Sadly I feel as if this thread, although garnering attention is not the attention I had hoped for. I think HinterWelt and Gideon have been my only "Yay!"s, and I got two other "eh"s. So once again, to force the point, if you, gentle reader have suffered through all this, you have a game and/or a website and you feel like the idea might have merit, say "Yay!". If not say nay and be done with it.

Hey Cowbody,

Ultimately, you're going to have to decide for yourself regarding the merits of your plan. The internet forums are actually a pretty poor place for getting a survey or poll type of response. You're right that comparing what you're doing with RPGmall, et al., is getting away from the point.

The goal of this thread is a little murky to me, though. Since no one can tell you (in a "for sure" way) whether this is a good idea, there's only one thing to do ... to do it. That's really the only way, since we're working with a new medium and new technologies.

I support any and all ideas that might serve independent RPG publishing well, so for what it's worth, I'm all for it. But given that your vision of what you're doing is apparently clear, all that remains is implementation.

Best,
Ron

Hey Emmett,

...I am talking about the portrayal of the game on the website. Other than a write up and cover art, I don't control what the customer sees.

Absolutely. You've got indie in your blood. The issue for the indie guy with any of the online pdf/pod malls is complex. They aren't exactly print-on-demand, requiring no outlay of funds from you, because actually you pay for copies of the game to be printed in anticipation of sales. They aren't exactly a store, because they don't buy product from you in anticipation of selling it. And they aren't exactly marketing, because what they deliver is a one-size-fits-all version, based on the Amazon.com model, aggregation of product and customer reviews. Which isn't to say they aren't providing valuable services. You may be able to get your books printed for cheaper, but coordinating the printing of a book can be a big hassle, so it might be worth a little extra to have them do it for you. Also, the malls do fulfillment, which most folks find to be a pain in the ass as well. And the Amazon.com retail model is pretty powerful. But if you think the best way to promote your game is with actual play posts, or with blurbs from reviewers, or a web-ring of fan sites, or forum discussions, or a more art rich presentation, then maybe the charges you'd incur from having your product on one of the malls don't seem like they're worth it. So I have to believe that if you can deliver aggregation of indie product along with some level of customizable presentation, that your portal would be embraced by the indie community.

Paul

Let me know your thoughts. I whipped this up pretty fast in my copious spare time. It is meant entirely as a point of discussion and should be considered in a liquid state.

Thanx,
Bill

PDF about 100K

http://www.hinterwelt.com/thoughts/Initial%20Requirements.pdf