Hey folks!

So, here are a bunch of our thoughts on magic. We're worried that it's too complex, and still uncertain of how to handle some of the mechanics. These are thoughts from several stages, so some of them are obsoleted by later thoughts. I'm just posting all our thoughts here, so it's rather long.

Questions for y'all: Too complex? And if so, how to simplify? We want to keep the flavor, but the system itself can die/change if appropriate.

The goal in one word: Sleek.

*****

The main idea for magic - it happens all the time, everywhere. It is NOT a matter of imposing will on the world (that's a Tell mistake) - you don't impose your will on a match to light it, you just know how to light it. All magic is like that. Powerful spells are not limited by who's around (as in Mage) - you can cast fireballs in Times Square, the problems that limit you are based on: who else might get hurt? Do the police see you? You'll be charged with arson at the very least. What about Noom? If they see this, they might decide you are the new expert to surpass and then spend time chasing you down for duels.

Okay, now to the thoughts:

***************
Magic Vocab:

Art = technique
Maestro = any magic user
Feit = a standardized spell
Rapture = a spontaneous spell
School = Source (Sorcery, Magery, or Wizardry)
Focus = the theme of an Art
Thread = any of the 7 colors of magic ("I have 2 motes of the Time thread")
Weave = the difficulty of the spell as determined by the action and complexity (i.e. A lesser transformation).

**

COLOR TRAIT ASPECT MAGIC
red strength athletic life
amber charisma social emotion
green intelligence knowledge mind
cyan dexterity precision time
blue will spiritual fate
magenta perception artistic space/matter
clear empathy magical skills quiddity/energy

I've been really thinking over the magical associations with the
Traits and the Colors. The above is the result.

(In doing this, I have a question about Traits: why is Blue and
Spiritual not Empathy with Clear and Magical Skills being Will?
Spirit is usually associated with Empathy more than Will, and Magical
Skills usually associated with Will more than Empathy)

Let me define:
There are 1 - 7 layers, each mote of Trait is a level of
understanding of that Trait along with the ability to manipulate that
Trait's magic type. This is real rough, and doesn't always line up
with the actual ramblings of the magic in particular.
Five definitions of manipulation:
Perception (Perc)
Perservation (Prsv)
Change (Chng)
Destruction (Dest)
Creation (Creat)

Three levels for each defintion
Minor (mn), Medium (md), and Major (mj)
Motes Level of Understanding/Manipulation
1 Sense Immediate Surroundings (mn perc)
2 md perc, mn prsv
3 mj perc, md prsv, mn chng
4 mj prsv, md chng, mn dest
5 mj chng, md dest, mn crea
6 mj dest, md crea
7 Raw Creation (mj crea)

I don't have all the Magic Traits finished. Here's two examples...

Red - Life
Life is clay beneath your fingertips - what has been given the spark
of life is susceptible to your will.
1: Sense Life
2: Influence Self
3: Influence Simple Lifeforms
Alter Self
4: Influence Complex Lifeforms
Alter Simple Lifeforms
Transform Self (grow another hand)
5: Alter Complex Lifeforms
Transform Simple Lifeforms
Create Clone (replicate oneself)
6: Perfect Metamorphosis (Transform Complex Lifeforms)
Create Simple Lifeforms
7: Create Complex Lifeforms

Influence Life:
The mage may affect the normal processes of a life pattern. Normally
this means slowing or hastening them. Any biological function
(healing, sleep, metabolism, etc) can be slowed or increased by a
factor of 1 mote. Usually this kind of effect lasts until the
process ends or changes. Thus, a character who wants to heal from an
injury that would normally take a month of recuperation, can heal in
2 weeks if he gets only one power - even though the duration would
usually be 1 turn.
Alternately, a process can be completed instantly. In the case
of healing, this restores one normal damage. For other processes, the
power of the effect determines how long a process can be accomplished
instantly. Say for instance, an power of 3 is enough to cancel need
for sleep, since adequate sleep takes less than a day. Any remaining
wound levels or unfinished life processes must be healed/completed at
the normal rate. It is not possible to combine accelerated and
instant Influencing of life processes.
Lifeforms can also be Influenced to exert themselves at maximum
potential or even 'go haywire' enough to suffer damage. In the former
case, a physical characteristic can be increased one mote or an extra
physical action taken each turn for the duration rolled. Multiple
success allow several attributes to be enhanced, but none can be
increased by more than one. If such an effect is maintained for more
than one scene, the subject begins taking damage from exhaustion. In
the latter case, the mage is using a direct effect to cause indirect
damage, so the victim can resist with Will (Obstacle 5?)), and soak
any damage inflicted with Red.
Finally, a mage can halt or initiate a normal process.
Thus, she could make an opponent sneeze, twitch, or fall asleep.
Debilitating effects require a minimum power of 3 and can be
resisted for a turn with the successful draw of Will. If a character
draws more willpower resisting an effect than the mage got power
casting it, he has shrugged it off completely.
Alter Life:
A Physical Trait or Aspect can be increased by up to
the power of the effect. Additional Red motes for health levels
require two power each. A form can also be made very fast - gaining
motes to dexterity. When changing to a new form, count the number of
dots difference in total Traits to determine the total Power
required. Forms which are decidedly different but 'numerically'
identical require 3 Power to assume.
Healing or Damaging a lifeform can also be done. Three times
Power in Damage can be inflicted or healed. Damage is Deadly only if
the effect has another times three in Power. Healing deadly
damage is more difficult than causing it. Deadly damage
equal to the power of the healing effect can be cured, but
this requires the expenditure of one Boon for each red mote
restored.
Transform Life:
Changing a Simple lifeform requires a power of only one
or two, Complex ones, three or four. Changing a Complex pattern
to a simple one, or vice versa, requires an power of 5. When
a Simple lifeform is changed it immediately assumes the
behaviors of its new form. Changes to Complex life are not so
straight forward. The mage can either leave the brain and
nervous system of the subject relatively unaltered (except for
size) or make it conform to the new form. In the first case, the
mind and personality are not overtly affected, but the subject
must learn to use it's body all over again, as if new-born. In
the latter case, the subject is able to 'instinctively' use his
new form with ease, but risks undergoing a mental transformation
as well. Generally such a character must makes Will draws each
day or lose a mote from the Green Trait. Mind magick can
slow the loss of mental faculties, and a Master of Life or Mind
is able to shape-shift without fear for his psyche.
Transformation can also be used as a superior form of
Healing. A Power of 3 is all that is needed to instantly
restore all damage taken by a character - even if the subject took
damage beyond unconscious. Even a recently killed subject can
be restored by an effect with power of 7, as long as there are still
some living cells or 'live force' left within the body (generally
this means performing the magick within 5 or 10 minutes of
death). Deadly damage can also be healed in this way, though
it requires the expenditure of 1 boon per power.
Create Life:
Creation a simple life pattern requires a minimum power
of three, complex ones, five. The total Traits and
Aspects of the created form determine the amount of Power
needed. Greater Obstacle & Power may be required for creation
of very large, powerful, mythic, or unique forms. Created forms
can be given instinctive behaviors - almost like the programs of
a computer. Complex forms may eventually develop minds on their
own, otherwise, Mind 7 must be used to create a complete mind.
Simple Life vs. Complex Life:
A complex life pattern is more than just a biological machine.
Such life forms can posses minds (however simple). The line between
Simple and Complex varies with perspective. To a shaman, all animals
may be Complex, while a scientist might consider only Primates (or
even only humans) to qualify. These differences balance out,
however. A mage with a broad definition of Complex Life, has a
greater 'menu' of shapes which he can safely assume, but can affect
fewer life forms at lower levels. Likewise, a mage with a narrow
definition of Complex Life can use the lower ranks on many more
creatures, but can assume relatively few shapes himself.
Regardless of the perspective of the casting mage, any sentient
subject is considered complex life - thus the afore-mentioned
scientist could not affect a werewolf in wolf form with Alter
Simple Life, even though he normally considers canines to be
simple forms.
If a complex life pattern is altered too much from its
original form, it's mind will slowly begin to conform to its new
shape. A complex lifeform changed into a simple one by any means
other than Perfect Metamorphosis immediately loses its sentience
unless mind magic is used to preserve it. Complex lifeforms
created at an early stage of development and allowed to mature
will usually develop normal minds.

Blue - Fate
1: Sense Immediate Fate and Fortune
Examples: Detect lies, perceive "higher truths" when spoken
2: Larger loom of Destiny
Example: In general useful to get a sense of where Destiny is going,
gut reaction to important decisions
3: Control Probability
Example: Beginner's Luck
4: Affect Predictable Patterns
Example: Bless/Curse object
5: Affect Life
Example: Bless/Curse living being
6: Affect Thought
Example: Administer binding oaths
7: Create New Fate
Example: New Destinies unfettered by anything in the Past

Here is how I envision Fate:
Fate mainly deals with how patterns change and organize
themselves. While many mages concentrate on the disorder/randomness
aspect, other mages use it too increase order and remove unwanted
factors.
The division of levels deal with what kind of system is affected:
Level 3:
Deals with chaotic systems, where the creation and
dissolution of patterns are completely unpredictable (randomness).
It allows the mage to control how it behaves, like biasing
probabilities or making certain patterns appear.
Level 4:
Deals with systems which in their natural state are
stable but subjected to the third law of thermodynamics (closed
systems and similar things), they gradually move towards higher
levels of entropy. The mage can control how this happens, like
making a stick wither or making crystallization become perfect.
Level 5:
Deals with systems which try to remain in their state,
like living beings, and when disturbed actively try to return.
The mage can now interfere/help this process, making it harder
or simpler for a living being to heal or an organisation to
survive a budget cut.
Level 6:
Deals with *all* systems, even systems which are normally
outside of change. Now the mage can attack the organization of
any system, including abstract ideas, time, space and magick itself.

**********

Everytime I start writing this stuff, I get ahead of myself and feel
the urge to get into all the details. I hope this is enough to wetten
your brain with what I am trying to get at. If you had read Mage, you
would start to see just where I was going with this. Low levels are
weak and specific to their type of magic. As the levels increase, not
only does the power to do things increase, but the overlap into other
types begins to happen.

To change say a chair /into/ light, one would need to have at least a
3 or 4 in Cyan and a 3 or 4 in Clear. One would add the needed motes
and divide by half to get the Obstacle. In this case, it would be
about a 3 or 4 Obstacle. SO what you are attempting to do, if you
have the correct building blocks in Traits, determines the Obstacle.

Geez, this is all so convoluted...

**

First, the casting draw for any magic is the highest Type Trait being
used in the spell + Art.

I built some of this based off of remembering that you said somewhere
that Sorcery is the weakest, then Magery, then Wizardry. But I could
be wrong.

Sorcery
I see Sorcery as being the least dynamic of the Sources in that the
Maestro is pulling Quiddity from actual objects. I see the Art being
the primary tool of the Sorcerer. The draw for Sorcery is only
augmented by quanity and quality of resources (make specific numbers
associated to grades of quality and amounts of quanity that creates a
resource draw). Poor quality or not enough quanity can effect the
casting of the feit in negative ways by adding to the Obstacle. Most
of Sorcery are Feits, Sorcerous Raptures rare indeed.

Magery
Magery pulls from the caster themselves in casting magic. The Will
Trait acts as an Augment to the casting draw. Due to the nature of
Magery, the Will Trait can replace the Type Trait for the casting
draw, but then any augment is lost. Motes are pulled directly from
the caern and kept out the duration of the magic.

Wizardry channels Quiddity from the universe around the Maestro to
cast. The main draw is able to be augmented by a Wizardry Aspect
which is equal to both Will and Empathy combined. Every power drawn
when casting and augmenting is accumalated and halved, becoming the
Obstacle for a damage draw - channeling Quiddity is hard on the
Wizard, the more powerful the casting, the greater chance of harm to
the Wizard. It is the hardest school to learn.

Standardized magic, or Feits, can default to the average of the Type
Trait and Art involved in the cast rather than making a draw. Rapture
has no default, but in exchange is the in-the-moment weaving of the
Types to perform something.

Or something along this lines...
Cheers!
Jack


**
red – Destruction
amber – Connection (summoning, wards, etc.)
green – Divination
cyan – Transformation
blue – Preservation
magenta – Creation (artistic acts are acts of creation, you see)
clear – Metamagic

Now, how difficult are these? I offer this order, from easiest to
hardest:

Divination (your Perception)
Connection – summoning, by natural means
Preservation – maintaining a state, warding
Transformation
Metamagic
Destruction
Creation

I'm not sure where to put Metamagic, and I can see destruction is
several places. If we simply go to an extreme level, or the level of
Motes, destruction is the destruction of a mote of Quiddity – very
difficult. Metamagic is then the manipulation of Quiddity, and
Connection is the process of twining 2 motes together – still very
simple. I guess I'm saying that I like the order above.

So then we have 3 levels of complexity, minor, medior (Latinish – my
corrupted form of medius/media/medium), and major. Minor is either
very specific or very broad, depending on the action. Medior covers
generic categories, and Major is exactly opposite to minor – specific
in some action, broad in others. In general, the complexity applies
as follows:

- Divination – broad is minor, specific is major (though this can be
changed by acquaintance with an object or person)
- Connection – broad is minor
- Preservation – broad is major
- Transformation – broad is major
- Metamagic – broad is major
- Destruction – broad is major
- Creation – broad is minor

I'd rather use Greater and Lesser (like Nobilis, but also more like
historic use), but I have no idea what the medior grade would be –
Middler? Bette might be offended! ;) Maybe there's just no
designation. I'll use these in the examples below.

Abbreviations: 1, 2, or 3 for minor, medior, or major
dic, con, pre, tra, met, des, cre in order

Motes Level of understanding/manipulation
1 1 div
2 2 div, 1con
3 3 div, 2 con, 1pre
4 3 con, 2 pre, 1tra
5 3 pre, 2 tra, 1met
6 3 tra, 2 met, 1 des
7 3 met, 2 des, 1 cre
8 3 des, 2 cre
9 3 cre
10 Animation – creating Life

Example – Red/Matter – Focus on Metal
1 – Lesser Divination – know where the nearest metal is
2 – Divination – know where the nearest gold is
Lesser Connection – summon metal (would appear by chance within
a week)
3 – Greater Divination – know where the nearest gold necklace is
Connection – summon gold
Lesser Preservation – ward from gold-tipped arrows
4 – Greater Connection – summon a gold necklace
Preservation – ward from gold
Lesser Transformation – change lead into pewter or some other
lead-alloy
5 – Greater Preservation – ward from metal
Transformation – change lead into another metal of equal value
or usefulness
Lesser Metamagic – record the Quiddity signature of gold
necklaces in an area
6 – Greater Transformation – change lead into any metal (like, gold,
maybe ;)
Metamagic – record the Quiddity signature of gold in an area
Lesser Destruction – destroy a gold necklace
7 – Greater Metamagic – record the Quiddity signature of all metals
in an area
Destruction – destroy gold
Lesser Creation – create metal (no choice in specific, or a very
small amount)
8 – Greater Destruction – destroy metal
Creation – create gold (or a medium amount of any metal)
9 – Greater Creation – create a large amount of a non-specific
metal/medium of specific
10 – Create a metal Golem

Obviously, the potential uses of various Weaves need some work,
particularly the uses of metamagic. I see it as sensing flows of
Quiddity, manipulating feits and raptures as they're cast, and
basically manipulating Motes directly.

**

Heya Jack,

I like where you went with all of this. There's just as much detail
as I was hoping for, and the interesting complexity too. For example,
using the Metallic Art I described earlier, if I wanted to create a
metallic golem clone of my cat, from scratch, I'd have the following
Weaves required.

Lesser Creation of Matter – create a cat-sized amount of metal (I
don't care what)
Lesser Metamagic of Spirit – duplicate my cat's Spirit signature, and
implant it in the golem
Greater Transformation of Matter – duplicate my cat's appearance
Animation of Matter – create the living golem

Some of these could be left out, depending on how detailed or simple
I want my golem to be. If I don't do the Lesser Creation, I have to
supply the metal. Without the Lesser Metamagic, the golem wouldn't
behave like a cat. Minus the Transformation, I'd have to sculpt it by
hand, and without the animation, I'd have a floppy disc (shaped like
a cat, out of metal) with the datafiles of my cat's spirit. Just
making a golem out of metal I had on hand would simply take Animation
of Matter, but who knows what would inhabit it – a Spirit, a ghost,
or something else? And the shape would depend on the inhabitant –
over time, it _might_ transform itself to the appropriate shape, or
become something changeable, or something else entirely.

The spell above would require Matter 10 and Spirit 5. A Feit version
of this Rapture might simply be considered an Animation – the single
most difficult action in the complex. Perhaps this is why Feits are
so much easier, and the chargen cost for these Feits (not one-off
Feits like Seeming (to look like Shoal) or Glowspit (a spit-drawn
glyph used for light in some turns of Ghedde), but tied to an Art
that the character starts with) might be simply the mote cost. So, if
I wanted my character to start with the ability to make my-cat-
golems, the feit would cost 10 motes at chargen. This limits the
character nicely – I'd have to take some serious flaws to afford it,
or really limit his other abilities.

Under this scheme, Immortality (Greater Preservation of Time and
Matter) would cost 5 motes. A little low, so perhaps Feits should
combine the cost of all Threads. The cat-golem thing would thus cost
15 (Matter 10, Spirit 5), and Immortality would cost 10. I still
don't know – what are your ideas? What do you think?

Aidan

**
Okay, now down to the hard stuff. Here are some of my basic ideas on
description for each School, their mechanics, and how their relative
Arts would be constructed or used.

Sorcery

Using material components related to the Focus. A focus of herbs
requires herbs, focus of technology uses circuitboards, and so on.

Feits – gather the necessary motes of components, draw on your Art,
with an Obstacle equal to half of the total motes. Power determines
strength of the effect.

Raptures – gather necessary motes, draw on Art, Obstacle equal to
total number of motes. Power determines strength of effect.

Construction – For each mote devoted to the Art, the player gains 3
motes for thread allocation. The numbers associated with each thread
do not change, and represent limits. If I create Metallomancy with a
hand of 2, I have 6 motes for threads. If I associate those as Matter
4, Mind 2, then the best effect I can ever create with the Art is a
Greater Connection of Matter. My Art may improve, meaning I can
perform these Greater connections better and better as my Art goes
up, but the Limit is built into the Art and doesn't change. (This is
obviously a temporary idea – we may decide this isn't a good idea).

Sustaining – Sorcery can't sustain feits or raptures – they have to
be reworked after they expire.

Notes – materials' quality and quantity determine how many motes can
be obtained. Amounts should increase exponentially (1 mote from a
half a cup of cinnamon, but 2 motes from a pound), otherwise
gathering 10 motes for an Animation would be extremely easy. That, or
only a single mote can be obtained from any given material, so that
if I have Wortcunning, an herbal Sorcerous Art, and want to cast a 3
red mote Rapture, I have to have 3 different sources for my red
motes. In this case, quality determines quantity – excellent quality
means less quantity.

Benefits – fairly easy for most minor feits and some simple raptures,
very fast (instantaneous in most cases), doesn't affect the Sorcerer
greatly (only in the pocketbook, anyway)

Drawbacks – need material components, very difficult for complex
feits and most raptures, types of actions are limited permanently at
chargen, not sustainable

Example – I know Wortcunning X5 (hand of five, target is clear). I
want to create a potion called Hidden Tongue (a Greater Preservation
of Awareness feit), which prevents anyone without the proper
counterspell (a bay leaf rolled in the ear) from understanding a word
the subject says. Awareness means it's magenta, Greater preservation
means 5 motes are needed. I gather my motes of material, and make the
draw. I'm aiming for clear, drawing 5 motes, and the obstacle is 3
(5/2, rounded up always). I get RGGXX, which is 5 Power, or 2
effective Power after countering my Obstacle. Two power defines the
time my potion will affect its subject – these scales need to be
figured out.


Magery

Using a Mage's own motes, in ways related to the focus. A focus of
Sun can create light/solar mythology sorts of effects, like create
fire (but not put it out), or illuminate darkness (but not put out a
light), or spur plant growth (but not human growth), or create
happiness (but not sadness – that's a seasonal thing related to a
lack of sun). A focus of Technology could affect technology and
manipulate data contained on technology, or possibly even turn the
Mage into a datastream for travel along data lines.

Feits – removes motes from the Mage's caern, equal to half the number
of total motes. A draw on the Art is made for successful casting,
standard Obstacle is 3, before motes are removed. Failure indicates
that the motes lost are random, (simply draw the appropriate number
of motes out and set them aside), success means that only the needed
motes are lost (and perhaps these can be combined, so that if I need
to remove 3 red and 3 green, I can simply remove 3 amber, which is
red+green).

Raptures – removes motes, equal to number of total motes. Draw,
Obstacle is still 3. Failure is loss of random motes, success is loss
of correct motes.

Construction – The Art's hand determines how fast motes return to the
caern, with higher Hands equalling faster time – a matter of minutes
at a minimum, I think. Another option is that the motes in the art
are used to determine draw and return. Frex, I have an Art with 5,
which gives me 5 motes to buy draw and return. I spend 3 on draw,
which means I can draw 3 motes per time unit, and 2 motes on the time
unit (which equals a half hour), so every half hour, a mote at random
returns to my caern. By this method, feits would use twice the draw,
with the player choosing which Art number of motes are kept. I like
this one better, by the way, though it doesn't quite capture the idea
that a mage would know what his motes are, and be able to reach them
easily. Maybe it's simply not that simple – Quiddity circulates in
the body, after all!

Sustaining – a mage can sustain a spell by holding back (not
returning to his caern) the feit or raptures motes. Time passes
normally, however, and motes that would have returned to the caern do
so once the feit is no longer sustained. If I sustain an illusion
using 5 motes for 3 hours, and my time unit is an hour, when the feit
or rapture ends, 3 motes go back to my caern right away. If a spell
is sustained for to long a time, and too many motes return at once
(more than Art number of motes?), there is the potential for damage,
including permanent mote loss from the caern (aka Deadly damage).

Notes – I think the addition rules (amber = red + green) have to be
included, as well as subtraction (red = green – amber), or the mage
can never animate something. It should be difficult, but any school
should be able to animate, I think. I like the second idea better,
with draw and return, but the number associated with the Art is never
drawn on. Instead, it would be a limit – if I have an Art of 5, I
have 5 draws to get the needed colors. If I don't make it, then the
spell fails (and without some sort of limit, the second method would
always succeed, even if it took a long time). Even better, since mote
colors can be combined or extracted, you have Art / 2 draws to
accomplish the task. You can draw better for feits, and only need to
gather the highest difficulty for each thread, while raptures are
slower, and require Every Mote, so a spell with a Lesser Creation and
a Transformation of Spirit – 7 and 5 respectively - would require 12
blue motes, or some combination that becomes 12, for example 4 blue,
3 magenta and 3 red (3 more blue, total of 7 blue), 2 cyan and 2
green (2 more, total 9 blue), and 3 clear and 3 amber (3 more blue,
total 12 blue needed). That's 20 motes from his caern, and will take
our Mage above (time unit of half hour) 10 hours to return to normal!
And that's if he has the draw speed required to draw the motes within
his Art/2 draws. He'd better be pretty skilled! Oh, and the time
issue comes up again – if I put 4 motes into my time unit, what does
that mean, and is it the same as for duration of sorcery spells?

Benefits – convenient and flexible, can accomplish most major feits
and raptures, sustainable

Drawbacks – complicated (for player and character, I think, but what
magic isn't), draining, takes time

Example – The Mage Tekne, a technomage of course, wishes to turn
himself into a datastream to travel from his home in Colorado to his
friend's in California on the spur of the moment (a rapture). This is
a Greater Tarnsformation of Matter and Energy, 6 motes of red and
clear. He has Technomagic 7 (draw 5, time 2 (half hour)). He has 4
draws to get his 12 motes: 1st draw – RAGGM, one red, A+G is one red,
G+M = one clear, total 2 red, 1 clear. 2nd draw – GCCBM, G+M is one
clear, that's all he can do, total 2 red, 2 clear. 3rd draw – AGMMX,
A+G is one red, X is one clear, he can combine 1 magenta with 1 blue
from the previous draw for another red, total 4 red and 3 clear. Last
draw – CCBM, and the Wyrd – so close! He can combine the blue with
the magenta for another red, but can't do anything with the cyan he
has left over, or the extra magenta from the last draw. (Note that he
could combine differently and potentially end up with a totally
different number of motes for his two colors. I don't think it
applies here, but that could be the difference between success and
failure!) He ends up with 5 red, 3 clear, a failure, and the Wyrd. A
failure with a Wyrd is going to be, well, weird! Sucks to be him. If
he had succeeded, 4 draws would have meant that it took him 2 hours
to work the rapture (4 draws, times half hour time unit). Perhaps
this limit doesn't work – if he's that good (7 hand!), he should be
able to make it happen. I have no idea what else could be done,
though – maybe Art alone limits the number of draws (he'd have 7
draws), but you can only combine half your Art number of motes – that
means with a 7 hand, he could have, at most, 4 combined motes (a red
from a green and amber, for example) – but this is getting WAY
complicated, and needs some simplifying I think. Or maybe not – this
is magic after all, and it's supposed to be complicated, at least a
little. Duration, distance, etc. – should these be defined by extra
motes, as an extra? So that the greater transformation of energy now
requires 7 motes instead of just 6, or should it simply be an extra
cyan (for space/distance) or two, or nothing extra at all?


Wizardry

The Wizard channels motes from the Coil or causes motes in the Coil
to vibrate in certain ways to weave the rapture or feit outside him.
The Focus defines the way in which the Wizard channels or causes the
vibration – often a meditative technique of some sort. An herb Wizard
might have to smoke specific incenses or herbs to channel (the herbs
varying by type of spell, or time of year, or ....), while a
technowizard has to program his spells, and when the program runs (or
even compiles) on the computer, the necessary vibration is
accomplished and the feit or rapture is released. In some ways it is
like Sorcery, and in other it is like Magery.

Feits - Draw on the Art. Power indicates draw for motes set into
vibration, or channeled. When the necessary color are in motion or
channelled, within Art number of draws, the spell takes effect. Motes
are returned to the caern between draws. Obstacle is normally 0, but
circumstances and environment can change that - areas where magic has
been used a lot become more difficult to channel/vibrate – perhaps
every spell cast in an area within a day increases the Obstacle by
one, default time unit of an hour to drop. So every consecutive hour
that a Wizard spell of any kind is cast in a specific area increases
the Obstacle, and every hour without decreases. If 6 hours in a
bookshop see cast, cast, no cast, cast, cast, no cast, then the
Obstacle would be 2 (0 up to 1, 1 to 2, 2 to 1, 1 to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to
2).

Rapture - Draw on Art, half Power is draw as above.

Construction - at chargen, each mote in Art is 5 motes in a Thread.
To have total mastery of a Thread thus requires 2 motes. These 5
motes cannot be split. Or maybe they can. I dunno. No spell can be
worked unless the Wizard has an equal number of motes in the Thread
(he can't do a level 6 matter feit if he only has Matter 5). Thread
hands can be increased through advancement of the Art.

Sustaining – Feits and Raptures are sustained by remaining in trance
and continuing the focus – continuing to smoke the herbs (better have
no coughing problems!) or run the program (power disruption could be
BAD!).

Notes – Addition rules (if we include them) will apply only to
Magery, and not to Wizardry – you must draw red, not amber and green.
Otherwise, this is probably the simplest mechanic. Again, there is
still the question of what to do about additional targets, duration,
area of effect, etc. – more motes of different colors, more motes of
the Thread colors, ignore, greater difficulty, etc.

Benefits – supremely flexible and powerful, no effect on the wizard
(beyond requirements of his focus), sustainable, can change as the
character learns

Drawbacks – slowest (at least in terms of preparation if nothing
else), affected by environment, easily disruptable (interrupt a
wizard's concentration and the spell is lost – he has to start over,
and the Obstacle will have increased, due to the weaving that was
begun – at least one draw has to have been made for the Obstacle to
increase though), unreliable power level

Example – Bloodmagic as Wizardry – the focus relates to glyphs drawn
with blood to create the effects. Our Bloodmage (Haemomancy 5) wants
to find out what numina a character is (a rapture in this case). This
is a Greater Divination of Spirit (or would Numina be Energy or
something else, or would it depend on their moiety – Quem is Energy,
but Inchoa is Spirit, for example) – or 3B. He draws some blood and
makes the glyphs, chanting in Haemian (the bloodtongue). His draw on
Art results in GGCX and the Boon. The player uses the Boon
immediately, giving him a total power of 4 since no spell has been
cast here recently (if it had, he'd have a power of 3 or less, and
could not cast at all if spells had been cast each hour for the past
4 hours!). He therefore has 3 (Art of 5 halved, because it's a
Rapture) draws of 4 motes each to get the 3 blue needed. First draw –
GCMM – not good. RABM on the second – he'd better get 2 more in the
next draw! Too bad – he got AACB, only 1, and not enough to weave
the rapture. If he tries again, he'll be at an Obstacle of 1 for his
power draw, because of the draining this attempt created, unless he
goes somewhere else (and we need to define how big an area is
affected – room sized? Football field sized? what?)

So, there's my ideas. I think the structure is pretty sound, but the
specific mechanics for the schools could be reworked, and probably
should be. But at least I got to explain my original concept for how
they worked, and you'll see what I'm aiming for as far as details of
methodology for each school goes. I can't wait to find out what you
think!

**

Magic and Schools

Simplified:
Sorcery: must have the proper numbers of motes as required by the
Feit or Rapture. Draw on Art- power determines other effects - like
distance, multiple targets, damage, cast time, etc.

Magery: can only cast Feits limited by his ability in Threads -if he
has Matter 3, he can't cast a spell of Matter with a difficulty of 4
or more. He actually uses threads from himself, so after casting a Matter 2 rapture, it will be a while before his matter score returns to his max of 3. For now, it's at matter 1. Draw on Art - power buys other features of the feit as for
Sorcery.

Wizardry: here I'm stumped. Maybe this is the one School that
actually has to draw for motes.

I read up on Mage- and additional targets, etc. are bought with
successes - I think this is a good idea.

I'm also stumped on what to do about Obstacles for spells of various
sorts - for sorcery, probably the obstacle comes from the Weave. For
Magery, from the character's traits? Doubling up duty for the Weave
doesn't seem fair. Wizardry - the obstacle might come from the
environment and the difficulty together...

Magic is by no means settled, but I think this is a step in the
right direction. Sorcery and Magery are sleek, but Wizardry needs
work.

Thoughts?

**

Thanks for your help!

Aidan

So as far as I can tell for a recap, here's the quoted, paraphrased version for those with short attention spans:

Magic Vocab:

Art = technique
Maestro = any magic user
Feit = a standardized spell
Rapture = a spontaneous spell
School = Source (Sorcery, Magery, or Wizardry)
Focus = the theme of an Art
Thread = any of the 7 colors of magic ("I have 2 motes of the Time thread")
Weave = the difficulty of the spell as determined by the action and complexity (i.e. A lesser transformation).

- Divination – broad is minor, specific is major (though this can be
changed by acquaintance with an object or person)
- Connection – broad is minor
- Preservation – broad is major
- Transformation – broad is major
- Metamagic – broad is major
- Destruction – broad is major
- Creation – broad is minor

Abbreviations: 1, 2, or 3 for minor, medior, or major
dic, con, pre, tra, met, des, cre in order

Motes Level of understanding/manipulation
1 1 div
2 2 div, 1con
3 3 div, 2 con, 1pre
4 3 con, 2 pre, 1tra
5 3 pre, 2 tra, 1met
6 3 tra, 2 met, 1 des
7 3 met, 2 des, 1 cre
8 3 des, 2 cre
9 3 cre
10 Animation – creating Life

Magic and Schools

Simplified:
Sorcery: must have the proper numbers of motes as required by the
Feit or Rapture. Draw on Art- power determines other effects - like
distance, multiple targets, damage, cast time, etc.

Magery: can only cast Feits limited by his ability in Threads -if he
has Matter 3, he can't cast a spell of Matter with a difficulty of 4
or more. He actually uses threads from himself, so after casting a Matter 2 rapture, it will be a while before his matter score returns to his max of 3. For now, it's at matter 1. Draw on Art - power buys other features of the feit as for
Sorcery.

Wizardry: here I'm stumped. Maybe this is the one School that
actually has to draw for motes.

I think over all, we were going for an approach that combined the best of Nobolis with it's simple structure for ranking of difficulty, and Mage the Ascension for it's ability to weave magic on the fly.

I think we've done that to the best of our abilities, but I think the best concern Aidan has brought up is the fact that our magic system then differs from the rest of the system. And I agree - I hate it when a game has two systems, one for it's normal resolution and then one for magic (and there are the ones with a third for combat!!!).

So in a way, I think we are looking more for some type of validation: is what we have designed themetically cool for the game especially in light of its unique color resolution system, or have we just bunked it all up (as Mike Holmes has been amazingly enough to point out to us a couple of times)?

I have reposted this from the CruxCIR site, without Aidan's permission (hope it was okay, Aidan!), in hopes that it will gather more responses here.

well, I posted our ideas so far over at the forge, but apparently it's too much. No one's said a word. I've had some other ideas on how to sleekify the system:

- get rid of threads. Simply use Weaves for Obstacle, and the School provides the color/difficulty in the spells. Sorcery needs the material components, Magery is limited by their focus to kinds of spells, Wizardry is limited by the Wizard's ability to concentrate.

- use power to add additional damage, tagerts, distance, duration, etc.

- Instead of weaves, maybe we simply make a list of actions with difficulties, a la "For Queen and Country", a supplement for some universal game engine whose name escapes me. That is, forget the generalization - provide a list of 20 actions or so, with associated Obstacles. If I want to turn lead into gold, that's simply the 'Transmute' action, with an Obstacle of 6.

- relate magic to Aspects - a technique is built with X aspects, just like normal skills, except accomplished magically. So my Bloodmage might have Aspects in his magic that add to the Art (i.e Art as Trait), and if he's attempting something that he doesn't have a relevant aspect for, he simply draws using his Art. The number of aspects/motes would be determined by the Art or Background - an Art of 5 gives you 10 motes for your technique aspects, for example. Then myt Bloodmage could simply draw on Art 5 + transmute 2 to cast his rapture. I really like the simplicity of this, and that it mirrors the rest of the system.

So, there's some ideas - whaddaya think?

Aidan

Thanks Jack, condensing this was a good idea, and maybe we can get some reponses now. And all good on the repost (the Crux site is public, after all!)

As I see it, I see a couple of pros and cons for keeping threads.

Pros: it can become more like the rest of the system with some tweaking, it's useful for Magery, and flaws and gifts will still be figure-out0able.

Cons: it's still a level of complexity we don't necessarily need, as we have to keep weaves for obstacles (that, or come up with some other way to determine how difficult a feit or rapture is), it's too like Ars Magica/Mage for my taste, and doesn't fit the feel we're going for. It's not Sleek, in other words.

Here's an example with the new idea:

Jonas has Technomantic Wizardry 4, with the Aspects (aka Skills) Get Information 3, Enchant Item 2, and Transport 3. I want Jonas to summon help with the handy cell phone, so he weaves a Transport rapture. He'll draw 7 motes, and the Obstacle can be based on either a greater conjuration (the amber-ish Weave, aka connection), and thus 4, or set based on distance or other factors as the Guide deems necessary.

The disadvantage is that flaws become difficult to determine with this, I think, and player's choices for Aspects, in terms of scope, can easily screw with the system - at the same time, I see this as a good thing.

I'm stumped.

Aidan

I've been thinking about Crux and Magic for what seems like daily for the last month. Again, I reiterate how fast and easy Chargen seem to come for us, where as magic just has not seemed to fit exactly right. It is not because we haven't come up with some good ideas or mechanics. I think it is because in comparison essential character, character creation, and basic resolution of action is /extremely/ open and free flow to me. Magic on the other hand, by creating three schools, seven threads and feits/raptures, feels contained and restricted. It is not a blantant difference, but it is enough of a themetic difference that it has been rubbing me wrong almost from the start of our magic brainstorming.

So now that I think I've realized this, I am not certain where to go next.

Heya Jack,

Good points, and it seems the place to go is to open it all up. Forget all details of Threads and Weaves, and simply let the player do what they want. Include penalties if the spell doesn't fit their magic style. The only difficulty is determining Obstacles - and this style leans towards more Nobilis-like (i.e. a scale based on the amazingness of a spell - replicating normal human activity is easy, up to godlike and universe changing).

The difference between the schools then becomes mainly a Color (in the Setting, Theme, etc. sense) issue. We don't HAVE to have different mechanics for them. I think the difference between feits and raptures, mechanically, is still a good idea - since the whole point is that magic isn't a will thing but a know-how thing, raprtures are more difficult because you're guessing how to do it based on other knowledge, and this may or not realte to the actuality of how it's done.

I want to include magic laws somehow - perhaps bonuses if you use the law of similarity or contagion or other laws (I can post a huge long list if you want to see them).

I wonder, though, how such a loose system can be used to determine flaw and gift costs? This is what started us on the whole specificity kick. On that regard, I think simply coming up with either a list of values and associated powers/flaws might work (i.e. a 3 mote gift does XYZ sorts of things, and a similar flaw does ABC sorts of things - this could be similar to the spell Obstacle scale). This would keep flaws and gifts fairly open too.

On the same logical level, our explanations of passions and backgrounds could use some serious simplifying as well. Just as the magic system has been rubbing wrong (and I agree with you), the passion/background system has been doing the same to me. They're just too complicated.

Strangely, I can see the simplicity/openness everywhere but in conflict, which keeps tripping me up, even with Mike's help. I'm going to go address some of my thoughts on that right now.

Does this work better? And if we go with simple and very open Arts, what would the Obstacle scale look like? I think 10 levels - but how to differentiate...

Aidan

I am familiar with many of the Laws of magic belief from my Anthro studies, but throw down your personal ones so that we have a common page to work from. And I am interested in hearing your theories since Crux's cosmology and philosophy need to largely take their lead from your head... In my opinion ;)

Jack

Directly from Bonewits' "Real Magic". I've edited out ones I don't think are appropriate or useful, or that don't fit our setting. After Bonewtis' description, I've included some notes on the law's usefulness and potential mechanics.


The LAW OF KNOWLEDGE
This is probably the most widely used law, and probably encompasses all the others in some way. The basis of this law is that understanding brings control. The more that is known about a subject, the easier it is to excercise control over it. Knowledge is power.

- basically, this is the Art, Focus, and School all in one. But it could be useful in providing additional bonuses - researching orangutans might offer a bonus for turning someone into one.

The LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT
A simple scientific understanding - if exactly the same actions are done under exactly the same conditions, they will be associated with exactly the same results. Magicians have at least as much belief in cause and effect as modern physicists do, they just realize that a good ritual, like a good theatrical performance or a good bread recipe, isn't always predictable. In truth, a spell involves so many variables, that controlling or even understanding them all is impossible. The key to magical success is learning which variables are the most important, and how to keep them constant. Control over the variables is icing on the cake.

- this is a background thing. This is why Glowspit (glowing swirls made with a spit-wet finger to light the dark Turns of Ghedde) works, and why spells work at all. So it doesn't need any overt explanation.


The LAW OF SYNCHRONICITY
Two or more events happening at the same time are likely to have more in common than the merely temporal. Very few events ever happen in isolation from other events. There is no such thing as a mere coincidence.

- this seems like it could be cool and useful, but I don't know how.

The LAW OF SIMILARITY
Having an accurate physical or mental representation of something facilitates control over it. This one is fairly obvious in its usage- having a model, picture, or other representation of your target (like a voodoo doll) gives you power to effect the target. Look alikes are alike.

The LAW OF CONTAGION
Objects or beings in physical contact with each other continue to interact after separation. Everyone you have ever touched has a magical link with you, though it is probably pretty weak unless the contact was intense and/or prolonged or repeated frequently. Magical power is contagious. Naturally, having a part of someone's body (nails, hair, spit, etc.) gives the best contagion link.

The LAW OF NAMES
Knowing the complete and true name of an object, being, or process gives one complete control over it. This works because a name is a definition (yes, even "Harold", "Marie", "Kunte", and "Jasmine" were at one time) as well as a contagion link, and an association (if you call something the same name over and over, that name becomes associated with the thing). This also works, because knowing the complete and true name of something or someone means that you have achieved a complete understanding of its or their nature. This is why, in most pre-industrial cultures, people are given "secret names", as well as "public names", and why the sharing of a secret name is such an act of trust - because the secret name is considered to be very close to, if not identical with, the person's true name.

The LAW OF WORDS OF POWER
There exist certain words that are able to alter the internal and external realities of those uttering them, and the power may rest in the very sounds of the words as much as their meanings. Many of such words are names, though the meanings may have been lost or forgotten. Very many magical tools require words to be inscribed upon them and/or said over them during their construction and/or use.

- these are all very useful on various levels, in obvious ways, I hope.


The LAW OF PERSONIFICATION
Any phenomenon may be considered to be alive and to have a personality - that is, to "be" an entity or being. Anything can be a person. Most weather mages personify the winds and the clouds, for example, and thus find focussing their magic on the atmosphere much easier to do.

- this one is exceptionally useful in Crux. Need to manipulate the weather? Go find a Cloud Quem and use Contagion or Similarity.

The LAW OF IDENTIFICATION
It is possible through maximum association between elements of oneself and those of another being to actually become that being, to the point of sharing its knowledge and wielding its power. This is the law that controls most lengthy or permanent possession phenomena.

- could be useful in transformation.

The LAW OF DYNAMIC BALANCE
To survive, let alone to become powerful, one must keep every aspect of one's universe in a state of dynamic balance with every other aspect. Extremism is dangerous, as the extreme being becomes so associated with the extreme aspect, that they lose the ability to avoid that aspect at all. This is another reason "evil" mages are rare, as continuous association with pain or death will cause a mage pain or death, ending the mage's ability to continue actively with "evil". This is also why "good" mages, especially healers, tend to live a long time.

- this could be useful as a way to limit munchkinism - wan't to be a powerful necromancer? Fine, just realize that you'll slowly zombify...

The LAW OF PERVERSITY
Sometimes known as Murphy's Law. If anything can go wrong, it will, and in the most annoying manner possible. Magical associations sometimes operate in the reverse of what was desired, and meaningful coincidences are just as likely to be unpleasant as pleasant. Even if nothing can go wrong, some element of the universe may change so that things will go wrong anyway. Whether we like it or not, the gods (or fates, or what have you) do have a sense of humor. Emotionally healthy mages have less problems with this law than others do, as the mage's own subconscious mind is probably a major perpetrator of this law.

- the Bane in action.

********

Some of these are more useful than others - the classic Frazerian Contagion and Similarity are probably enough for most magic. The rest could be explained (along with ones I left out) for background and idea-sparkers, but simply saying "go read Bonewits" would work fine too.

Aidan

So here is a magic idea that we have been bouncing around for ES but it never worked with the dice. I don’t know if it would work for you but perhaps it will inspire you in some way.

Premise: There are two part of magic the “pattern” and the “casting”. The pattern is the fuel and basic shape of the spell. The casting is the direction and will of the spell.

Pattern: The pattern is made up of a series of color that form magical words. Each word adds to the complexity of the spell. For example suppose the following magical words
(note a “-“ indicates a separation of a round)

Man 2R-1B
Transform to 1G-2A-1A
Animal 1R-2R
Woman 1R-2B

If I wanted to transform a woman into a bunny I would first form this pattern

1R-2B-1G-2A-1A-1R-2B

Casting: Once the pattern is formed I have to cast the spell. The pattern says “Woman Transform to Animal”, with the casting I specify what woman and what animal. Casting is a simple skill check.

The difficulty of the casting is based on how much the pattern upsets the natural order of fate and the universe. Transforming a white bunny to a gray bunny and transforming a white bunny to a white tiger have the same pattern but very different difficulty in casting.

Eric -

I really can see how this be really cool design for magic, along the lines of numerology and the Law of Names and Words of Power.

Unfortunately I think it runs into the same issue as our use of threads, which in a way would have be the rules on how to "write" out the magical name of something.

So great ideas, but I just don't feel that magic being complex for Crux works themetically with the wide-open feel of chargen and conflict. I believe what Aidan and I are coming into problems with is an issue more of having the entire system work together themetically, rather than the issue of thinking of a specific type of mechanics for magic...

the Jack (I know Jack!!!)

PS. All this talk of magic systems has got my mind really really wandering into some wild ideas. I don't think they are appropiate for Crux, since Crux has a universal, wide-open feel. The ideas are definite worth taking some time and making some more tightly focused themed games on magic.

taalyn wrote: The LAW OF KNOWLEDGE
The LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT
The LAW OF SYNCHRONICITY
The LAW OF SIMILARITY
The LAW OF CONTAGION
The LAW OF NAMES
The LAW OF WORDS OF POWER
The LAW OF PERSONIFICATION
The LAW OF IDENTIFICATION
The LAW OF DYNAMIC BALANCE
The LAW OF PERVERSITY

I'm wondering if you can make magic in Crux special by folding it into the core system, using the normal conflict resolution mechanics of various scales to deal with it, and simply allowing magical actions be affected by the magical laws as the players see fit.

In fact, you could (I don't know the metaphysics of your world, so this might not work) just let players say, "I'm using magic to do this thing" and let them add magical description to tests of other capacities.

I may be the dissenting voice here, but there are times when I feel that adding a subsystem for a particular activity can obstruct its use rather than focus attention toward it: see magic in Shadowrun for an example, or psionics in 2nd edition D&D.

Shreyas,

That's exactly what we're saying- there will be a separate chapter to explain/describe magic, but the mechanic would be the same as for any other task. We're also saying that the only excpeptions would be Color issues (such as the difference between Sorcery and Magery).

Jack,

I playtested last night with some new blood, and have a bunch of other thoughts. Magic worked as we're describing it here, and it was fine. I have discovered some other issues as well, and I'm going to note some of them in the conflict thread, and start a playtest thread for the others.

Aidan

Hey Aidan

So I saw your post on playtesting as far as conflict went, but how did it go over with magic? Not that there really is a current system, but how was play effected?

Jack

Hey Jack,

It was extremely simple, and I had no problems. Basically, it operated like any other skill (appropriate since it's simply a matter of knowing how to do something, not applying one's willpower).

For speed and strength enhancements, I simply had power = duration, with a standard bonus based on 3 motes added per mote spent in the feit. Otherwise, I used our weave categories for Obstacles. It was supremely freeform, and could be finessed a bit still (since we haven't finalized anything), but it worked.

Aidan