Topic: Changing your social class
Started by: Caz
Started on: 7/23/2003
Board: The Riddle of Steel
On 7/23/2003 at 5:46am, Caz wrote:
Changing your social class
Hey all, I was just wondering if there were rules for changing a characters social status in the game, or if you just do it with no worries.
Example: A character is a low freeman, but through his efforts is eventually knighted, to the effect of being at least a high freeman or landless nobility.
Or say some PC just gets really rich.
Is the social status just a starting point to work off of, or are you more or less stuck with it?
Thanks
On 7/23/2003 at 6:14am, Jaeger wrote:
RE: Changing your social class
Traditionally in medieval times you lived and died in the social class you were born into.
Some thing like you described such as a freeman (man at arms type) being knighted for valor is certainly within the realm of plausability. but he shouldn't get his hopes up of rising any higher.
One thing I have noticed in TROS is that most players largely ignore the potential in-play effects of a person's social class. It's largely just seen asjust an indicator of how much money one starts out with; then most play like the PC's are all equals.
When I last played a noble charactor it was pointed out how I treated the other PC's "diffrently" - it was nessicary then to point out the fact that my PC was of noble birth and his was a mere freemen.
When I play a PC with a social class of landless noble or higher I try to make him act as a man of noble upbringing would act. And if all the other PC's in the group were of high freeman and lower - they're just gonna have to deal with it.
He may like and respect your PC, bleed alongside you, and consider you a friend, but... When you both walk into the king's feast he will hand you his cloak and sword and go off to eat with his equals while you dine on scraps in the kitchen.
On 7/23/2003 at 7:07am, Overdrive wrote:
RE: Changing your social class
Oh, what a good post. Characters in my campaign are mostly high freemen. They have so much money that they look and dress like any noble, but I'm not sure how the real nobility should react to them.
How was the social status displayed in the medieval times? With money, servants, clothing, behavior? One character is a nobleman from Stahl (the adventures are for now set in Barameir), he's a foreigner but still noble, driven from his homeland. How does he display his social status without the endless source of wealth? Impersonating as a nobleman would be very serious crime with capital punishment.
One interesting thing is that at least in Cyrinthmeir, the Church holds much power. Freemen can advance in the Church order, gaining powerful positions there. I would not charge any SA points if social status was increased in this manner.
On 7/23/2003 at 7:58am, contracycle wrote:
RE: Changing your social class
Overdrive wrote: Oh, what a good post. Characters in my campaign are mostly high freemen. They have so much money that they look and dress like any noble, but I'm not sure how the real nobility should react to them.
As a jumped up usurper who does not understand their place in the world, who is uncultured and boorish, uncivilised and a social pariah.
How was the social status displayed in the medieval times? With money, servants, clothing, behavior?
Yes. Knowing formal dances; having a 'cultured' taste in art; patronising artisans; sponsoring aspirant juniors; lavish pro bono public spending; ridiculously expensive clothing, jewellry and cutlery (although to some extent this is a sound investement; plate and jewels have been described as the stocks and bonds of medieval finance).
One character is a nobleman from Stahl (the adventures are for now set in Barameir), he's a foreigner but still noble, driven from his homeland. How does he display his social status without the endless source of wealth?
Well now... he might be born noble, but if he can't walk the walk it won't matter. To convey nobility and curry favour with those who actually empowered, displays of high culture, good taste, and a fondness for luxury would at least convey the style to which they are accustomed. But if they cannot actually raise fighting men, their status is nominal rather than actual. This can be leveraged, if other parties will ally with you on the basis of enforcing your claim, but without actual possession of land, you are essentially dependant on the charity of others.
Edit: remember the story of the princess and the pea
http://www.childrenstory.com/tales/1page/princesspea.html
One interesting thing is that at least in Cyrinthmeir, the Church holds much power. Freemen can advance in the Church order, gaining powerful positions there. I would not charge any SA points if social status was increased in this manner.
I would. IMO ythe mechanics should model changes on power andf ability; not a cost-benefit model of player action. If the character gains functional power, it should be paid for, no matter how that power was gained, IMO.
On 7/23/2003 at 11:29am, Lebo77 wrote:
RE: Changing your social class
Why should you have to pay SA costs for items and possessions gained through roleplaying? If at the end of a long, head-faught bandit war, a PC finds the bandit King's lair and loots his treasure chest, do you make him pay SA, because now he has accrss to 100 units of gold? Then why should a charicterwho fights numerous political battles, eventualy defeating his rival for the posission of Bishop or whatever have to pay points for the privlage? OK, maybe i would be a good idea for this charicter to pay some SA raiseing job0related skills he has not had a chance to raise through use, or to raise his MA and SOC to make his job a little easier.
Now what happens if at some poit the player looses his high posission in the church. Or leaves it for personal reasons. Are those valuble points of Insight he spent "refunded"?
On 7/23/2003 at 1:00pm, Salamander wrote:
RE: Changing your social class
Overdrive wrote: Oh, what a good post. Characters in my campaign are mostly high freemen. They have so much money that they look and dress like any noble, but I'm not sure how the real nobility should react to them.
Also there were the "Sumptuary Laws". A series of laws devised where you had to dress your social station. If you were a "commoner" dressing like a noble, you could face fines, public shame or imprisonment. If you were wealthy enough, you could absorb the cost readily, not that they really enforced it then, seeing as you could well be their creditor!
Overdrive wrote:
How was the social status displayed in the medieval times? With money, servants, clothing, behavior? One character is a nobleman from Stahl (the adventures are for now set in Barameir), he's a foreigner but still noble, driven from his homeland. How does he display his social status without the endless source of wealth? Impersonating as a nobleman would be very serious crime with capital punishment.
Social status was displayed in the quality of your clothing, your mount, your attendants and hangers on, weaponry places you stayed etc. As well as who you were affiliated with. I am not sure, but I have heard that only those who were prominent members of society were the only ones allowed to stay mounted whilst within the town.
Overdrive wrote:
One interesting thing is that at least in Cyrinthmeir, the Church holds much power. Freemen can advance in the Church order, gaining powerful positions there. I would not charge any SA points if social status was increased in this manner.
It is not too far from the truth of Medievel & Renaissance Europe either. There were numerous Papal States and more than one of the Electors of the Emperor were Archbishops. In fact Salzburg was known as a "Bishopric State" at one time.
On 7/23/2003 at 4:10pm, Irmo wrote:
RE: Changing your social class
contracycle wrote:
Well now... he might be born noble, but if he can't walk the walk it won't matter. To convey nobility and curry favour with those who actually empowered, displays of high culture, good taste, and a fondness for luxury would at least convey the style to which they are accustomed. But if they cannot actually raise fighting men, their status is nominal rather than actual. This can be leveraged, if other parties will ally with you on the basis of enforcing your claim, but without actual possession of land, you are essentially dependant on the charity of others.
Depends on how big your coffers are.... as the eastern Emperor had to learn when being too p***ed about the Venetians carrying on their schemes within his empire for his own good.
On 7/23/2003 at 6:11pm, Caz wrote:
RE: Changing your social class
Good posts guys, though I think that's all kind of a given. Social status should be a point the PCs can't ignore in these games.
But my question isn't answered by any of them. So I take it there are no rules for it?
On 7/23/2003 at 7:17pm, Lebo77 wrote:
RE: Changing your social class
Example: A character is a low freeman, but through his efforts is eventually knighted, to the effect of being at least a high freeman or landless nobility.
Or say some PC just gets really rich.
Is the social status just a starting point to work off of, or are you more or less stuck with it?
Well, Here is my take on it:
It should be hard to change social status. However, if the commoner wereto be knighted for acts of extreme bravery and valor, the grant of knighthood would likely include a small plot of land somewhere, or a stipend from the royal treasury to support the knight's upkeep of arms and equipment. The effect of this would be to raise him to a level of "landless nobility".
A PC getting very ritch who was NOT "officialy" made noble could simply buy property, but HECK many kingdoms are in rough shape financialy and could proobly be convince to sell a title for either money or a oath of fielty and a promice to contribute troops to the upcomeing campaign...
Historicly, the fudal system had a few basic levels, and onecould move within that level, but moveing above your level was very difficult. A "low freeman" could become a "high freeman" just by being successfull. The apprentice blacksmith becomes a master silversmith, for example. No matter how rich one became however one was not noble unless the King (and sometimes the church) said you were. Some titles could be passed to children, some could not. The humble fighter who wins glory on the battlefield would likely get one of the latter type, his children would be left to fend for themselves.
A surf who ran off his lord's land to a city might be able to break into the "middle class" if he had talent and luck (or joined the army...) but how likely would a surf be to have skills valuble in a city?
On 7/23/2003 at 9:38pm, Salamander wrote:
RE: Changing your social class
Of course, this all depends upon what kind of game you are running.
In my Renaissance campaign, the wealthy freeman, Renatta is deferred to by most others and even the nobility pay her a certain respect... mostly due to the fact that she is relatively wealthy. Rülf clued into this pretty quick and has treated her with deference since he met her. The others are in for a shock in this world, however, if they think their station is going to be overlooked.