So I'm thinking about how I'm going to publish my game, and I think I want to go the 'zine route. I'm thinking I'll go to Kinkos, CopyMax, or some such and have them do me up some cheap booklets. Think 9th Level Games (Kobolds Ate My Baby!, Ninja Burger) level of quality. My games will be of a more serious flavor though, and possibly with full-color cover. I plan on printing batches as sales dictate. I've thought about this a lot (almost as much time as I've spent on the game!), and I think I've finally settled on how I want to publish. If anybody wants to poke holes in my idea or offer insight or (dare I say it) encouragement, I'd be just pleased as punch to listen to what you have to say.

And as far as sales go, I'm at a total loss of what to do. Should I try to get into the standard distribution channels? Tundra Sales Org? RPGMall? Just sell from my own website ala James V. West's Random Order Comics & Games? Any advice here would be very valuable to me.

What are your thoughts on the matter? Have you considered the value of going with Tundra vs RPGNow at all?

Ethan,

I don't see any problem with the concept. Your best bet is probably to target local stores, and pitch it as a local indie game. You can sell over the net as well with pretty low overhead.

If you can generate sufficient sales or come up with the scratch, I'd recommend having the product actually printed instead of just photocopied. Printing is much cheaper per copy, and it looks worlds better.

What I did for My Life with Master was fill out this form at www.printindustry.com. My 100 copy print run, saddle-stitched, with the covers printed at 1200 dpi and the interiors printed at 600 dpi, cost me less than $240.

Paul

Echoing what Paul and Clay have said, I absolutely don't see any reason to go to a place like Kinkos these days. POD is damn affordable. My fifty copy print run of Charnel Gods - 50 pages, perfect bound (but all B&W on the cover) - cost me a whopping $1.99 per copy.

- Scott

Okay...I'm getting questions from folks via private message. Let's kill them all with one stone:

My Life with Master is 64 pages long. The actual print cost per copy was $2.08. The pages are 60lb paper. The cover is 10pt C1S, unlaminated. Packing and shipping was billed to me at just over $17, if I recall. The books were printed by Express Media, in Nashville, TN. And I would definitely recommend them. But I think you should seriously consider requesting bids from multiple printers, because there's no reason to assume that if you're doing a perfect bound book, or one with a laminated cover, or different paper stock, that another printer won't be more cost effective or otherwise better suited to your job.

Paul

Thanks for the responses, guys!

Alright, I guess I'll just focus on one thing in this thread, and it will be printing. The sales talk can come later. Andy, your comment/question is noted.

First off, I'm not doing photocopies. Each book will be printed. My current plan is to make 2 PDFs (one for the interior and one for the cover), give them to a printer, and pay them to make me 100 books, saddle-stiched, 5.5 x 8.5 with a cardstock cover. I want to walk into a place, hand them the files, and then pick up a box of books when they're done.

My basic goal is to do as little work as possible beyond designing the game and creating the PDF. I know little to nothing about printing. Truth be told I don't have any particular desire to know more than I do. :) Paul, looking at that form you linked to, my eyes glaze over; I have no idea how to answer more than half of the questions. And what exactly does Print On Demand mean, and how is it different from getting something printed, not on demand?

Anyway, I guess when you boil it down, what I'm saying is, convenience is more important to me than money (within reasonable parameters). In that light, is Kinkos still a bad choice?

Hey Ethan,

Paul, looking at that form you linked to, my eyes glaze over; I have no idea how to answer more than half of the questions.

This is how I filled out the form, minus my contact information:

Date Bid Submitted: 05-08-03
Bid Due Date: 05-14-03
Project Title: My Life with Master
Contact Name: Paul
Contact Company Name: Half Meme Press
.
.
.
Schedule Needed: ready in late May to late June, needed by July 15th, 2003
Quantity: 85
Size Finished: Trim Size: 7" x 8.5"
No of Pages: between 56 and 64 pages (question below)
Cover Paper Stock: 10PT C1S
Text Paper Stock: either 50 lb. or 60 lb.
Cover Ink: either 4-color process or color laser
Text Ink: black & white
Ink Coverage: lots of white space, so light-to-medium
Halftones: n/a
Bleeds: n/a
Screens: n/a
Bindery Folding: saddle-stitch binding
Copy Provided: whole job provided as pdf files, one for the interior, and one for the cover
Proof Requested: blueline or laser print
Packaging: standard cartons
Delivery Contact: same as above
Delivery Company: same as above
Delivery Address: same as above
Delivery City: same as above
Delivery State: same as above
Delivery Zip Code: same as above
Delivery Country: same as above
Delivery Phone: same as above
Additional Comments: This is my first foray into self-publishing, so I have a few questions.

As far as page count is concerned, I'm still doing layout. Since I'm interested in saddle-stitch binding, can you tell me if you do 16-page signatures, or 4-page signatures?

The book is a roleplaying game, which will get paged through back and forth by the end user, so I'd like to consider 60 lb. paper for the interior. Do you have a recommended maximum page count for saddle-stitch binding for each of the paper weights?

Can I do a full-bleed cover?

If you have any requirements/guidelines for creation of pdf files from PageMaker/Distiller, that would be helpful.

I need delivery of the books prior to July 15th for a convention I'm attending. When would you need files from me to hit that deadline?

Thank you,

Paul

And what exactly does Print On Demand mean, and how is it different from getting something printed, not on demand?

In my opinion, "Print on Demand" is one of the most horribly abused phrases in the printing industry. It is universally associated with digital printing technology (as opposed to offset printing), but from a publisher's standpoint is used confusingly and imprecisely to describe a range of services that mean very different things business-wise and financially. In its purest form, it means Cafe Press style printing where books are produced only in response to customer orders, on a copy by copy basis. A publisher would expect minimal cash outlay, if any, for this particular service. But the phrase is also used to describe RPGmall style printing, where a publisher pays up front for a small number of copies of their book to be digitally printed, and then pays again for another small print run each time the existing stock is depleted. What www.printindustry.com is calling "Print on Demand" is basically small print run digital printing. So if you want more than 400 copies of your book, consider bidding it out to traditional printers as well. You may find an offset printer who quotes you a nice price.

Paul

Hi Paul, thanks for the info!

Just to throw my hat into the ring,

I work at a comercial printers, and I have been self-publishing my own zine style comics for years, and the biggest difference between copying and printing, other than the quality (printing is much much better for colour and tones) the biggest difference is price and volume.

For short run photocopying is cheaper (tho some POD places have gotten very very cheap) Up to about 1000 pages of copy (that's total not per book, so say 20 copys of a 50page book) is going to be slightly cheaper than printing an equivalent amount.. however, at that 1000 page point, it is just as cheap to go printing as copying (which is why POD can do 20 books for so cheap)

One way to look at it is how much money do you have available when you go to print, and how many copies do you want. If you are doing really short runs or your books have lower page counts, copying is fine. But any bigger (either the size of the run or the size of the book) and POD becomes a viable option.

IMO tho, the more important factor in copy vs print is how the finished book looks. In my experience, many people who would gladly pay for your book based on it's content, will sometime (often?) pass it over, because it is not printed (ie full color cover on glossy stock, maybe perfect bound). Even wih a color copied cover, we all know it's not the same thing. It looks more proffesional to have your book printed, because it's what we are all used to seeing (esp. all those who are game players, but not designers).

Ultimately, the question of copy vs print should be answered based upon a compromise of how much capital you have versus what you want the finished book to look like and how many you want to print up.

But that's just my 2 cents :)

Hi Groovy, and welcome to the Forge!

I'm definitely going for print, not copies, and your points have helped to reinforce my decision. As mentioned earlier, right now the plan is to order 100 books, 5.5 x 8.5, color cover, staple bound, Probably between 30 and 40 pages.

Is Kinkos a bad place to get that sort of print job done?

Berryville Graphics which printed Kayfabe for me can do that job for about $160 perfect bound (Berryville doesn't do saddle stitched, but the printer paul mentioned does and their prices are compareable).

Based on past experiences with Kinkos it will likely cost you about $280 for the same print run saddle-stitched.

,Matt Gwinn

Actually I was looking at Berryville for my project as well & I ran across a note on their on-line quote pages saying they could do saddle-stitched books, but to contact them for pricing since it's not included in the autoquote.
So perhaps they are offering that service now.

Berryville will also apparently do print runs of as few as 20 copies and, from what I've been able to determine, can still do it cheaper than kinkos, with perfect binding to boot.

While I can't speak for the quality, as I'm not ready to go to print yet, Berryville is the least expensive source I've found for POD services so far.

Wow, that's a huge difference in price. I was thinking "walk in, get some books done, walk out" would be more convenient than shipping, but not for almost double the cost. Anybody else have similar observations or experience with Kinkos?

Actually I was looking at Berryville for my project as well & I ran across a note on their on-line quote pages saying they could do saddle-stitched books, but to contact them for pricing since it's not included in the autoquote.
So perhaps they are offering that service now.

I saw that same text on their site, in the little pop-up, and actually inquired about pricing. I received the following email in response:

Don.Search@bvgraphics.com writes:

Berryville Graphics does perfect binding only, no saddle stitch.

Thanks.

I replied to suggest that they correct the text on their site, but apparently they have not done so.

Paul

I received the following email in response: