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Topic: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff
Started by: Shreyas Sampat
Started on: 7/30/2003
Board: Indie Game Design


On 7/30/2003 at 12:52am, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Also brought to you by Tree's Heart Dynasty, The Shadow of Yesterday, and d20Diceless.

This is the result of my Dice & Diceless thread, and a previous thread on Exquisite, which helped along my musing. There is also a thread on RPG.net. It's something of an exercise in game design: "How can I squeeze the most utility out of Fortune and Karma?" Exquisite is another of my games about hypercompetent people duking it out over the heads of the masses of the commoners. It's not gritty, it's not dark, it's not realistic.

Mortals are weak. Mortals fail. They suffer and tread the long hard road of mediocrity. You do not. You have become Exquisite, perfect, beautiful beyond compare, beyond comprehension. You can be whatever you choose; you have entered the land where all limitations are removed. The Second Breaking is too far off to be remembered by even the eldest immortals, but its effects can still be felt, through the touch of ones like you. When the gods were broken and their souls seeded over the ground, a few lucky mortals caught the sparks of divine power, and were remade as the Flawless Ones, the Exquisite, insects holding up radiant pieces of stars.

The gods of the world are dead and gone, and outside of Exquisite society they are forgotten. The pieces of their souls that the blessed hold are blessing and curse - they give power beyond imagining of imagining, but also madness and a promise of loss and bitter betrayal. There are only so many godshards in the world, and one shard is never enough. Exquisites hunt each other across the realms, seeking the taste of immortal flesh, and new, fresh immortal might.


Characters in Exquisite have five Senses which describe their abilities. Sense scores range from 1 to 10; for mortals they top out around 3. The three uses of a Sense are their stereotypical applications from three attitudes: Mighty, Subtle, and Independent, but not the only possible uses.

• Touch is the character's power over his own body. The three archetypal uses of Touch are Exert, Control, and Endure.
• Hear is the character's power over his own mind. The three uses of Hear are Understand, Imagine, and Observe.
• Taste is the character's power over the minds of others. The three uses of Taste are Influence, Avoid, and Investigate.
• Smell is the character's power over plants and lesser creatures. The three uses of Smell are Hunt, Herd, and Cultivate.
• See is the character's power over inanimate objects. The uses of See are Shatter, Manipulate, and Construct.

Exquisites also have Godmarks, which range from 1 to 10 and represent a piece of a god's soul, and the mangitude of its power. A Godmark's power is much less broad than that of a Sense, but also different in its scope. Rather than being a mode of interaction, a Godmark is something that the Exquisite can interact with, like truth, law, and the sea, the things that Godmarks of Véamandhi can affect.

Mechanic:
When an Exquisite wishes to make major changes to a state of affairs, the GM should set an Integrity for that state; this Integrity is a number that states how resistant that state is to change. Then the player may choose to roll dice or to set the magnitude of his effort.
If the player rolls dice, he rolls as many d6 as his Sense and any relevant Godmarks; rolls of 1 to 3 generate that much Force, while 4 to 6 are worth nothing. The player divides the Force generated between Quality, the possible mangitude of the change, and Integrity, the new state's resistance to change. Then the original state's Integrity is subtracted from the Quality to find the magnitude of the change that the character can create.
If the player chooses not to roll dice, he simply adds up the relevant numbers. He may elect to increase the Force of the result by spending points of the relevant Sense or Godmark. The resulting stat loss is not factored in to the Force of the result. Spending points gets more efficient with larger expenditures:
[code]
Points Spent: Force Added: (Sense/Godmark)
1 1 / 1
2 2 / 2
3 3 / 4
4 5 / 8
5 8 / 16
6 13 / 32
7 21 / 64[/code]
What to do with Quality:
With 3 points of Quality you can decrease a character's Sense by 1. 9 points incurs a reduction of 2, 27 a reduction of 3. Reducing a Sense to 0 incapacitates the character in that arena.
With a Quality of 1 you can do something minor, the work of a mortal's hour.
Quality 3 is worth an afternoon of skilled labor.
Quality 5 is a lengthy undertaking requiring broad expertise, like building a mansion.
Quality 7 is a creation unique in the world.
Quality 9 is something on the very edge of mortal capability.
Quality 11 is impossible for mortals.
Quality 13 is downright impossible.

Regaining Sense and Godmark points:
Every Exquisite has a code, usually based on the code of his strongest godmark. The code is usually summarized in three to five simple statements. One such code follows:

• Never lie to the virtuous.
• Beauty is truth; ugliness is therefore falsehood.
• There is virtue in adversity and in the law.


Being significantly inconvenienced by the code regains a point of Sense; being harmed by the code nets a character a point of a godmark. Characters should also have all their abilities restored at the beginning of a story. Accomplishing a major goal can also be rewarded with point restorations.

Magic:
Exquisites have three kinds of magical power.

Book magic adds to the longevity of things; it allows a character to bring a second Sense to bear on a challenge, but that Sense adds only to Integrity. In the diced mode, the Sense is rolled but only 1 and 2 create Force; in the diceless mode, points can be spent from the additional Sense to add to Force, but the Sense's value is not added to the total. Book magic is the magic of learning and ritual; it is studied, complex, arcane. Sword magic adds to the might of things; it works like Book magic, but adds to Force. Sword magic is like Exquisite kung fu. Both of these are discussed farther on the previous thread (Color issues only; mechanics live here.)

Godmark magic has its mechanical effect built in to the resolution system, but it has consequences that Book and Sword magics do not. It's essential to remember that godmark magic, though very powerful, only has utility in the godmark's specific realm of power. To take an example from real-world mythology, a Godmark of Apollo might have power over music, the arts, and sunlight. As the godmark's powers are drawn upon, its consciousness awakens and starts to intrude on the Exquisite's freedom. The character starts taking on Aspects of the god.
Aspects can include the god's visual appearance, personality traits, special effects, and so on. For each point that a Godmark is below its maximum, the Exquisite begins to display traits:

• Minor changes of appearance.
• Changes of mannerisms.
• Minor changes of environment.
• Major changes of self - extra limbs, attributes of the diety, that kind of thing.
• Actions outside of the god's purview are at half effectiveness.
• Personality traits of the god emerge.
• The Godmark nearly subsumes the character's personality; he effectively becomes a manifestation of the god.

These traits have an Integrity equal to their level.

Certain measures can help calm the Aspect and suppress its manifestations, outside of simply resisting them through sheer personal power. Using traditional tools of the diety will lower the Aspect a level, as will wearing garb in that diety's colors, or otherwise showing one's allegiance. Breaking a god's code will make the aspect flare one level more severely, as will being in the presence of another person manifesting the same aspect one an inimical one.

Godshards are difficult to take from a person, but they are easily given, with a libation of tears or breath. They can be taken from the unwilling, but only if the victim is deceased and the corpse is still warm. When an Exquisite dies and no one claims her shards, they are scattered across the world again, and mortal children are born with sparks of the divine burning inside them.

Forge Reference Links:
Topic 7287
Topic 5167

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On 7/30/2003 at 1:43am, Ben Lehman wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

How do you get points back in your Godmarks and Senses?
Further, can you spend points, and then roll dice, for potentially really huge results (i.e. blow 7 points of Godmark to add 64 dice to a roll?)

yrs--
--Ben

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On 7/30/2003 at 2:06am, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Your first question is covered in the post above, right after the Quality section.
Second question: No. The point-spending mechanic is specifically exclusive of the dice mechanic. In a way, it's a formalization of dice karma; if you roll really well once, you can expect to roll poorly for a while in order to "make up for it." The dice mechanic doesn't have the range of variation that the spending does, but it does permit more or less predictable performance.

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On 7/30/2003 at 4:58am, Spooky Fanboy wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

I must admit that I have a weak spot for games where characters are not only *do* magic, they *are* magic. This game fits that to a T. I am impressed, and I hope this continues.

But what do these people do? Why do they come into conflict? Can you provide us with this information, possibly creating a character and showing him or her in action?

How do they relate to the humans around them, in general? What keeps their existence out of the eyes of mortal men, if anything?

Sorry for the scattershot of questions; it only means I'm interested. ;-)

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On 7/30/2003 at 5:05am, Spooky Fanboy wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Sorry. I forgot these are Color questions, not mechanics questions.

But a mechanics question, then: How many points do they get to divide between Godshards and Senses? Is it randomly rolled? Is there a set amount? Can this set amount be varied by a merit/flaw system?

Again, just curious, and sorry if I'm overwhelming you.

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On 7/30/2003 at 5:38am, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

The Color:

Exquisites do whatever they want to do. They're big, bold people, and I can see a lot of different character concepts - the Hunter who goes out and slays young Exquisites for their power, the Architect who creates wonders, the Hero who champions a nation or the Emperor who rules it. The Chimera whose Godmarks are so strong that he is in a constant state of flux, changing from one manifestation to another. The Visionary who is trying to reassemble the shattered gods, one by one. They come into conflict because it is in the nature of strong people to collide, and because of the nature of their power. I can see a pattern of factions in conflict, or groups that are bound together because they are of different regional pantheons, and so forth.

The nature of Exquisite being is to be in the spotlight, to be forever surrounded by eyes. The transformation is not only mystical, but also physical - like comicbook superheroes, Exquisites are bigger, better, and always the prettiest, and everyone knows it. Mortals are aware of the mighty and what they do, but perhaps not what they are. Naturally it is wise for most of them to keep their fingers of Exquisite affairs; they would be swept away like tears into the sea.

Mechanics:
I'm thinking you get like 75 points to distribute; Senses cost 3 per point, Godmarks cost 2 per point. That'll get you a pretty spectacular character with no Godmarks, or a more average one that sizzles with divine power. There'll be a system, probably modelled after the Gift system in Nobilis, for merits, and probably a system for flaws in the same spirit. Of course, flaws will be metagamely useful, so they'll cost you instead of being a way to buy more merits.
There should also be a system for designing the gods that your characters have shards of, so when you burn out your Mark and become god-walking-earth, you know who you are and what you want.

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On 7/30/2003 at 6:12am, permacultureguerilla wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

I agree with spooky. It's beautiful. I try to write my game speach very similar to yours. Perhaps some time I can send you some and see if you have better ideas for word use (small token, of course. Not to take lots of time). Have you written gothic-style games?

Now, I do have at least one qualm. I like playing a character that feels threatened by more than equals. Somehow I want that millieu where the big Godzilla eventually has to come down with little ol me and my friends. I especially like the union of several types of creatures.

The 5 senses and how they play as attributes is cool. The book and the sword made me think to try all sorts of items with meanings.

If you haven't already mentioned: Are you using only Greek Gods? I also noticed on your website this system was used for several creatures (elves, dwarves, etc) was that one scratched for this? Or perhaps the 5 senses is a system for several games. I like that fantasy concept.

The title "Exquisite" doesn't catch my eye, but it does seem appropriate.

Taking each other's power reminds me of Highlander, a theme I loved.

If it's fair of me to say, my favourite games so far must be this and the Masque game (uh-oh, my apologies for forgetting the real name this time).

Anyhow, I'll be interested in viewing / buying the finished product.

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On 7/30/2003 at 6:41am, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

I'd be glad to discuss editing - PM me.

As for the questions about the game:
I'm turning over some mechanics in my head for truly frightening things that happen when the Godmark is overused; the thread of a better-than-equal is, in Exquisite, the threat of a peer losing control over the source of his power, and becoming something he does not want to be. But really, in this world there aren''t meant to be any things bigger than the Ecquisites themselves; there's an importance to that "lonely at the top" feeling.

Like Torchbearer or Nobilis, the game comes with a framework for you to fill out; I use Greeks in the example because it's easy; everyone should be casually acquainted with them. The fantasy setting that I developed under the Exquisite name and the color attached to it are still there, but with the PCs dropped in; it's a different world than that described at the site, but only by a little bit.

Thanks, everyone, for the compliments and the questions.

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On 7/30/2003 at 3:01pm, Spooky Fanboy wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Hmmm. Here's a thought I had:

Exquisite are not always their own or others' worst enemies. Sometimes they run afoul of the Mystery Cults.

Mystery Cults are those mortal affiliations who know magic, the magic of trapping an Exquisite and harnessing his/her power for their own ends, whether the Exquisite wills it or not. Their magic is the stuff of lengthy chants in dead tongues, symbols, books, sacrifices, and old worship ceremonies hideously twisted. They can use the power of the Exquisite, but what the Exquisite does effortlessly, the rituals may take an hour or more to accomplish. Most Exquisite view it as the worst sort of slavery, and give the Cults no mercy or quarter. The Mystery Cults return the favor, and have the advantages of numbers and fanaticism.

Why have the Exquisite not banded together and stamped them all out? Because there are some among the Exquisite who wisely believe that something besides other Exquisites needs to keep their nigh-omnipotent brothers and sisters in check, and thus quietly support the Mystery Cults, aiding them voluntarily in exchange for enforcable oaths against the Cult turning on them. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, after all...

Exquisite, no? ;-)

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On 7/30/2003 at 4:29pm, Spooky Fanboy wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Also, a question:

Is there any way, using the senses, that an exquisite can curse/bless/geas someone, monkeying around with their fate? Or is that a power of their godshard, and players should pick a diety of fate if that's waht they want to do? It just seems appropriate for people with a bit of deity in them to be able to do that.

Also, can players select archetypes to embody, like The Warrior, The Magus, The Fool/Rebel, instead of actual deities?

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On 7/30/2003 at 6:34pm, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Mystery Cults are frightening and exciting... I like it. I don't know how I'd get them to work, matephysically, but it's too interesting an angle not to pursue. Thanks, Spooky.

As for your second thing... I can see any godshard's power doing something like this, as long as the geas's effects are aligned with the shard. Like, a shard of Butterflies could make curses relating to death, transformation, flight, fire; a shard of Thor could bless a man with bravery, might, or power over the storm.

It seems like the archetypes that you're suggesting make sense as character concepts, but not necessarily as shards... think of a Shard as a kind of Pokemon where you become the monster. I have to go to the dentist; I'll post some character ideas when I get back.

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On 7/30/2003 at 8:09pm, Spooky Fanboy wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Shreyas Sampat wrote: Mystery Cults are frightening and exciting... I like it. I don't know how I'd get them to work, matephysically, but it's too interesting an angle not to pursue. Thanks, Spooky.


Anything to help, especially when I groove on the concept. Think of them kinda like the Cammorae from Nobilis, except rogue and independent-minded.

As for your second thing... I can see any godshard's power doing something like this, as long as the geas's effects are aligned with the shard. Like, a shard of Butterflies could make curses relating to death, transformation, flight, fire; a shard of Thor could bless a man with bravery, might, or power over the storm.


Ah, the Nobilis route, then. Well, it makes sense, although in my heart of hearts, I wanted the ability to do that tied to Taste, if only to make the time-honored line "Taste my wrath, puny fool!" take on a whole new meaning. ;-)

It seems like the archetypes that you're suggesting make sense as character concepts, but not necessarily as shards... think of a Shard as a kind of Pokemon where you become the monster.


Ah. Again, this makes sense, although I had a vision of similarly-aligned Godshards mixing together for mutual support after the gods exploded; not enough to carry a distinct identity, but enough to carry on a similar theme. Still, I suspect whatever whammies you're tying in to having too strong a Godshard sort of depend on that Godshard having a will of it's own.

Speaking of which, is it possible to have more than one Godshard in you at the same time? I keep having this idea of two opposing godshards in the same body, giving new meaning to the words "internal conflict." ;-)

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On 7/31/2003 at 5:02am, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

I hope this will answer some of your questions, Spooky; I actually rather assume that characters will have multiple shards.

Godshards
The power of a Shard is directly proportional to its strength of personality; a Shard that is more unique or of a god that was stronger originally will grant more mystical power to its holder. Likewise, an insipid shard or one of a weak god is consequently less magically intense. Shards cost 2 CP per level; an ordinary shard holds to a code of five laws and resonates with three symbols, each of which is associated with one of three spheres of influence; its maximum strength is 5. Through spiritual tribulation, an Exquisite can strengthen his shards. The following modify the CP cost and maximum strength of Shards:

Lax Code: -1
The shard holds to only three of its god's five laws.

Crippled Sphere: -2
The shard is incapable of affecting one of its god's spheres of influence.
Single Sphere: -3
The shard is capable of affecting only one sphere.
Twisted Sphere: +1
One of the shard's spheres is slightly different than that of an ordinary shard of the god; a Twisted Shard of Persephone might have Imprisonment instead of The Underworld or Naïveté instead of Youth.
Mighty Sphere: +2
One of the shard's spheres is broader than usual; a Mighty Hephaestus-shard could have Making rather than The Forge or Injury rather than Crippling.

Many Symbols: +2
The shard resonates with one additional symbol per sphere of influence.
Versatile Symbols: +1
Each of the shard's symbols resonate with two of its spheres.
Weak Symbols: -1
The shard does not resonate with one of its god's symbols; the associated sphere resonates with one of the other symbols instead.

Implacable Aspect: +1
The holder of the shard always manifests at least the 2nd level of Aspect display.
Volatile Aspect: +1
When the holder of the shard is manifesting Aspect, it displays at the next higher level.
Obscure/Distinctive Aspect: +1
The shard's aspect manifestations are rare and unusual; either they are virtually unknown as Aspects of that god, or are easily recognizable as being that of the god, more so than the ordinary aspect.
Subtle Aspect: -1
The opposite of Volatile Aspect.
Complacent Aspect: -2
The holder of the shard never manifests the highest 2 levels of aspect display.

Named Shard: +3
The shard holds a personality and a consciousness; it is unique among bits of its god. It embodies a specific facet of the diety, and has one additional sphere and one additional symbol. It automatically has the effect of Obscure/Distinctive Aspect. The shard-mind is stronger than that of an ordinary shard; its aspect manifestations have +1 Integrity.


A Sample Character:
The Hunter (75 CP)
The Hunter seeks out young Exquisites and eats them before they have a chance to develop their abilities, then sells their Shards.
Touch 6
Hear 5
Taste 2
Smell 4
See 3

Shards:

Xipe Totec 3 (max 5)
Xipe Totec, Our Lord the Flayed, is a god of sacrifice and the spring. He is very deliberate and ceremonial, and will take any opportunity to sacrifice when the Aspect presents itself. His Aspect is that of spectral quetzal plumes and a gleam of gold; as it becomes stronger there is a charnel stink, with the scent of rain running underneath it. The sound of chanting, smithy, and screams also accompanies his Aspect at times.
Spheres: Sacrifice, goldsmithing, spring.
Symbols: Obsidian, human skin, blood.
Colors: Green, yellow.
Code:
Always wear the 'golden garment', a jacket of human skin.
Always assist one in need of water.
Never spill blood without first consecrating it.
Let no flesh go to waste.
Gold is the flesh of the earth.

Tlazolteotl 4 (max 6)
Tlazolteotl, the goddess of guilty pleasures, is perfectly willing to take over the shardholder's body for an evening of regrettable debauchery. She smells of dry leaves and venom, and her Aspect makes the Exquisite appear scarlet and serpentine, or like a huge black jaguar with red flowers for eyes. All who see her are arrested by a feeling of mad desire.
Spheres: Serpents, Desire, Guilt
Symbols: Roses, Snakeskin, Ribbons
Colors: Red, black.
Code:
Never be denied.
Never refuse a pleasure offered out of fear of its consequences.
Likewise a request.
Be the most beautiful.
Power is a form of beauty.
Named Shard: Malintzin
Malintzin is the fertile, lifegiving facet of Tlazolteotl. Her Aspect is full of greenery and the scent of fresh earth.
Sphere/Symbol: Growth/Corn
Lax Code: Ignore laws 3 and 4.
Subtle Aspect.

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On 7/31/2003 at 2:33pm, Jonathan Walton wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

As always, your sense of aesthetic is profound. So far, the game reads to me like a less setting-dependent version of Nobilis. That is, in Nobilis, many of the game's central features and mechanics are tied directly into the background (Imperators, Chancels, the Realm attribute, Auctoritas, Rite of Holy Fire, etc). Here, that doesn't seem to be quite so much of the case. While talking about Godshards all the time does seem to hint at a specific setting, you could call them something else, use the same mechanics, and the game would still make sense. That's probably why it feels comfortable dropping both Aztec and Achean heroes into it. I'm with Spooky that, while the mechanics look solid, it's important to think about what you want the characters to actually be DOING. One of the weaknesses of traditional game design is building an "open-ended" system that accounts for every eventuality, even ones that probably won't come up in the course of play. Or, in the case of some games (such as In Nomine), not having mechanics for things that are likely to happen all the time. But elegant designs support only what you need. For instance, Nobilis doesn't have any rules for quantifying mortals or animals or anything that's not miraculous. They simply don't matter. You say as much by the absense of mechanics, as long as you're intentional about it, as you do with detailed systems. So what is the existence of an Exquisite like? Knowing you, I imagine something like "living out their passions while in the service to the Godshards within them." How close am I?

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On 7/31/2003 at 5:21pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

I agree that it's profound. Perhaps to a fault.

"living out their passions while in the service to the Godshards within them."
I'd buy that. Which makes for a great internal thought. But I'd be daunted trying to put it into play. I feel like I'd be bungling it all the time.

How about some help for those of us who aren't as aesthetically gifted, eh Shreyas. :-)

Mike

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On 7/31/2003 at 5:32pm, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Exquisite is starting to tie in with an idea I had for a Sorcerer setting, where demons were manifestations of your own madness, but the sorcerous secret community used them for, effectively, cockfighting. You could subject yourself to psychological traumas - torturing your parents to death, spending a year without human contact, eating bits of your own flesh, whatever - to strengthen your demons, but you'd slowly lose your grip. It was like Pokemon meets Unknown Armies.

Anyway, that's a subtle aspect of Exquisite - the Shards are not tools or friends, they are parasites; their Breaking has made them into dark, half-mad, skittering, crawling things. They vaguely remember their glory and that makes their confined, helpless existence even more torturous. Yet they are still the gateways to power and beauty and wonder. Exquisites walk this narrow line - strengthening the Shard strengthens the self, but to feed its dark appetites too much is to become the darkness and the madness, and lose the self.
There are those Exquisites who give away their power, fading to the dullness of mortality. There are others who have lost the battle, and are swept along by the Shards, who are all, whether they know it or not, attempting to reassemble themselves, bringing about the rebirth of the gods and ending the Exquisite forever. There are those who have found peace with their Shards, whether by deep soul-searching or by mighty disciplne and coercion, and these are the most dangerous of all. Basically, Exquisites are very big people, thrust into a world that's very crowded and very dangerous, lonely though it may look. There's less of that animistic Torchbearer vibe; anything important in Exquisite is someody's fault.

So, there are still holes in the mechanics - I need to work on the madness of the shard and the way that it clashes against the superhuman discipline of the Exquisite; I need to think about other ways that Shards can be manifest, indwelling other beings. Trees and animals can be Exquisite too, and they don't usually have the power to hold back the Shard's will; they become unmortal agents of the Shard, not smart enough to really work out its half-formed plans but strong enough to be a thing to be feared. There's a whole shard-trading economy going on that needs to be fleshed.

So it's more like "living out their passions while trying to survive the Godshard inside them and the world outside them." Hope that helps.

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On 7/31/2003 at 5:43pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Hope that helps.


Yes, for may part, absolutely. Thanks for the clarification. That's a much more down-to-earth premise from that angle.

Not that I'm not still a bit daunted, however. Realize too, however, that playing Nobilis daunts me as well. It's just not grabby for a guy like myself who can't think of what I'd do if I had all that power.

Mike

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On 7/31/2003 at 8:12pm, Jonathan Walton wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Mike Holmes wrote: How about some help for those of us who aren't as aesthetically gifted, eh Shreyas. :-)


Word. This is something I'm often just as guilty of: conveying an aesthetic and then assuming that people can just extrapolate from it the critical piece of "what PCs do on a day to day basis." Many people felt the 1st edition of Nobilis had exactly that problem, that R. Sean wrote a ton about who Nobles are and what it was like to be one, but said relatively little about what they did. If I'm not careful, Ever-After is going to have the same problem with Masks. Even after the second edition of Nobilis, we constantly get people on the Nobilist who don't quite grok it, asking questions like "What kind of Miracles could the Power of Mysteries do?" I feel like Exquisite might have similar challanges. People like you and me, who put aethetic as a #1 design priority (or try to) are much more comfortable just "improvising on a theme" than most people, steering the game in a direction that "feels right" and hoping for the best. That's how I run my Nobilis games, anyway.

NOTE: Just got your response to Mike. That does help clarify things a bunch and makes things much, much more interesting. Love the parasite metaphor. Always have. So it really is Nobilis after all the gods have died. I love the idea of shard-trading. Bartering pieces of dead gods. So loyal servants really could try to do the Osiris thing, finding al the shards of their god and putting them back together. Now I get the Highlander reference, because you could kill all the other Exquisite in an effort to assemble all the shards.

To make a sidepoint, which I was heading towards before I read your response, I think the Code thing you've incorperated into the shards has the potential to help you out with the day-to-day issue. Have a core set of values, even imposed ones, does give you some methods for figuring out behavior. Perhaps the shards corrupting effects could be exhibited that way as well. The longer you carry a shard or the more you draw on it, the more it demands of you. Also, if you're carrying a whole bunch of different shards, they may have conflicting requirements that you can't all fulfill at once. So you'd have the Argonauts crash-and-burn phenomenon. And it would give people an incentive to try to collect the shards of the same god/pantheon, or complementary shards that wouldn't fight inside of them. This also riffs on the Pokemon theme then: Gotta Catch 'Em All!

Do you have an aesthetic yet for what the godshards look like? I think you could have a field day there: metal butterflies, flowers made of glass, just take simple objects and do the whole "earth looks unearthly" thing to them, exhibiting their unnatural, magical nature. That way too, different Exquisite could recognise each other by the different "trophies" they carried. Beware the lady draped in the shrouds of winter.

Just some thoughts.

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On 8/1/2003 at 1:42am, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Just one thought for now - the rendering of godshards. Any one, or all three, of these could work for a given Exquisite game.

Godshards as Objects of Mystery
These are godshards as you have described them - roses woven of smoke, the veils of springtime, a flock of silver butterflies, a crown of glory. These godshards, clearly, are something other than natural; they identify an Exquisite instantly and obviously. A godshard of this kind is nature, stripped of some essential thing, so that it is an artistic perversion of logic. Often it is a symbol of the god it represents, but it does not have to be - Amaterasu-Omi-Kami is known to have shards in the shapes of a weightless, glowing jewel, a sword of golden sunlight, a mirror that reflects nothing that is true, and a silver-mail glove studded with iron clockwork bees.

Godshards as Beauty Broken
Like Objects of Mystery, these are objects, but their one identifying trait is that they are broken, tarnished, corroded - somehow fallen from their former glory. The jewel is cracked, the sword a handle with no blade, the mirror clouded with limescale, the bees are wingless and rattle with rust. These shards exist to remind us of what the shards are - they are lesser, damaged pieces of greater beings. They are not what they were. With shards like these, Exquisites cannot be readily identified by their appearance, but they generally reveal themselves rapidly through their behavior.

Godshards as Spiritual Power
These godshards manifest as physical changes to the Exquisite, not as objects; they are pure spiritual force, and must be communicated via an exchange of life-carrying force. The weakest shards may be transferred through a soul-searching look, but stronger ones need stronger media - a kiss, a drop of blood, an act of sex, a death. These shards tend to make Exquisites look inhuman or strange; they are not the dead giveaways of Objects of Mystery, but they can certainly be picked out.

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On 8/1/2003 at 8:55pm, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Godshards as Dark Appetites
Not only are the gods broken, they are insane. Godshards of this kind never have the quality Lax Code, and at least half the laws of their Codes mandate committing some sort of atrocity on a regular basis or in response to a common event. The Aspect of the godshard manifests as increasing madness along with the ordinary signs. These godshards can manifest as any of the physical types, but it would be interesting if they needed to be transferred through pain - bloodletting, mutual ordeals, torturing the recipient - whatever makes the darkness happy.

Shard properties for Dark Appetite shards:
Prohibition of Mercy: +1
The shard holds to an additional law, of this form: "Never protect anyone against things of my domain."
Unspeakable Harvest: +1
The shard can only regain points by harming others in such a way that the holder is harmed as well.

Properties for Objects of Mystery:
Banner of Power: +2
The Exquisite's Aspect can be seen for miles when his shard becomes excited, and it is instantly recognizable to anyone with a smattering of mythology or lore. Also, any Exquisite within sight of the Aspect will have his own Aspect flare similarly.
Mindshattering: +3
The shard's Aspect manifestations are bizarre, dazzling displays of the impossible. An exquisite holding Beauty would be infinitely, mind-crushingly gorgeous from some angles, and each lesser part would hold an eternity of lesser beauties reflected within. Fractal instances of abstract concepts are great for this kind of thing. Mindshattering Aspects have double the ordinary Integrity. Anyone laying eyes on a Mindshattering Aspect has to resist its Integrity with Hear to tear their attention away from its contemplation.

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On 8/2/2003 at 1:19am, Jonathan Walton wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Reaction to godshard aesthetics:

Rethinking my earlier suggestion, I think you need to be clear about creating a distinct aesthetic feel for Exquisite, to differentiate it from other projects you're working on (esp. Torchbearer) that have similar themes. While the Fudge-esque notion of allowing groups to build their own aesthetic is cool, it doesn't give prospective players much to sink their teeth into. I think you need a foundation of some kind and "Objects of Mystery" strays too close to the Torchbearer aesthetic for my tastes.

Immediately, the ones that jumped out at me were "Beauty Broken," "Dark Appetites," and the transferal method from "Spiritual Power." The former is delicious. It fits your theme of dead gods, but also is fairly unique as an aesthetic component. Not many people would immediately pick "busted stuff" as a way to make their game cool. "Dark Appetites" screams of the One Ring + Charnel Gods + Abyssal Exalted, and I would love to see it combined with "Beauty Broken." I see images of characters bearing talismen of things destroyed, like Piggy's glasses in "Lord of the Flies," that begin to demand equity from their carriers, wanting to break them as they have been broken. Those who would dare to seek godly power suffer for their hubris. That kind of thing.

Finally, your "a kiss, a drop of blood, an act of sex, a death" is one of the best built-in plot factories that I've ever seen. In a world of dead gods and broken people, what's more ironic than requiring them to make connections with each other? It really does seem like you're creating a subgenre: post-apocalyptic mythic fantasy. Like Changeling during the Long Winter or Nobilis after the Excrucian Triumph. Many of your themes (brokeness, corruption, parasites, lack of meaning, etc.) are already present in many PA games, but don't usually have a home in mythic fantasy. Sounds like an interesting brew. I'd be excited to hear more.

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On 8/2/2003 at 5:05am, Shreyas Sampat wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Gee, you know, I never saw Exquisite as PA, but it certainly is. How very strange. That gives me a really strong pair of resonating genres. Hooray!

I agree that Beauty Broken and Dark Appetites seem to be natural to combine, and the idea that the shards want to break their bearers fits just too neatly into that harmony. I see characters weeping at the thought of using their powers, fearing to leave an error uncorrected but fearing more to give the shard just one more inch of space, a single moment out in the sun. At the same time, I see a kind of 'eaten from the inside' dynamic - the shards are bits of a once-glorious whole, and their powers create harmony and wonderment even while destroying the people that use them. While the power can be used to heal and restore, it drives its wielders to rape and destroy, and ultimately to turn on each other. Man, it's late tonight and I have Canada in the morning, better print this thread out and work on it while I'm travelling.

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On 8/2/2003 at 9:42am, MathiasJack wrote:
RE: Exquisite: Highlander Kills Nobilis & Takes Its Stuff

Jonathan Walton wrote:

Nobilis after the Excrucian Triumph


After reading the last two posts, my imagination salvates at the idea of a Post-Apocalyptic Mythic (Post-Mythic?) game. With the direction that the thread has taken, I almost envision Exquisite as if it were Nobolis where you played both a Nobolis and an Excrucian at the same time.

To drive the Highlander concept a bit more, maybe one way to delay the pain and suffering of your godshard, to be able to do some good a bit longer, you can "sacrifice" (kill) another Exquisite to consume his or her Godshard. Of course, this is like credit - you are making yourself more powerful in the exchange, able to delay the inevitable a bit longer, but all at the cost of it hitting home all the harder later. How long can you post pone your loss of control to your God-shard, your damnation?

I think one of the most "exquisite" themes running through this game is of beauty loss. An Exquisite doesn't have a demon-shard, it is a God-shard. Once it stood for something more than it does now in its tragic destruction. And you can feel it twisting you right along with it.

Of course, ironically, most demons or evil gods were the "good" gods of some conquered past people.

Definitely interested to see what you do with this game,
Jack

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