Okay, so I've noticed something completely odd about you Forgite booth babes...

You are odd.

I mean that. No, really. With the exception of Jurgen (who is all sorts of "go"), and Jared (who is also quite "go"), you all hole yourselves up in your rooms and roleplay at the cons. It is odd.

Even more odd, however, is that you rent booths and do weird things like work them to hawk product all day (if your company rented the booth, have at it, if you didn't, you're odd). See... I spent MUCH less than a booth renting Radio Radio for a night. We sold music, books, RPGs, and all sorts of stuff, and probably sold more in four hours than most did at the entire con.

Indie marketing, my ass.

Kids, maybe you should try something different next time around. Like, less hoarding about a booth and bookshelf, and more with trying alternate, and (dare I say) more inventive ways of distributing your product.

All my Unfortunate Destinies stuff sold at Radio Radio... all of it. Nothing left. And hell, that is my damned side project. You can get in on this. I tried to invite people out... but strangely, a small room cluttered with people, after a small booth cluttered with people, seemed to be the sellpoint for most of you. There wasn't even booze.

In a nutshell: get out more. Try to push an envelope (any envelope, I don't care). Seriously, maybe it is time that Ron and Jake and the "bigs" of the Forge community strike their own space, and let those projects and creative outputs that are struggling between "when I get the time" and "maybe I should do something with this" to put-up-or-shut-up. Hell, I saved much money distributing for 4 hours... and it worked! You'd be surprised what can work when you try it out.

Okay, enough ranting... every once in a while, I get afraid of you "outside the box" people that won't explore outside the box...

I go now.

Dav

Dav wrote: All my Unfortunate Destinies stuff sold at Radio Radio... all of it. Nothing left. And hell, that is my damned side project. You can get in on this. I tried to invite people out... but strangely, a small room cluttered with people, after a small booth cluttered with people, seemed to be the sellpoint for most of you. There wasn't even booze.

Well, in the case of the Radio Radio show [which was primarily a Cruciform Injection concert co-promoted by Apophis Consortium and FanPro], announcements were posted on industry sites, the relevant booths were giving out flyers, and information was generally spread by word of mouth.

I'm glad to hear that it had a positive financial effect, Dav.

[SONIC BOOM! and ARR!]

I think it's wonderful that you did well at Radio Radio, Dav... But I don't really see that as a reason to come trolling in to shit in everyone's cheerios. Kinda insulting, kinda irritating, to look down on people for wanting to hang out. Just my perspective.

Hi there,

Actually, Ethan, Dav does have a good point. Which is to say, perhaps the booth venue is only one of many possible sales-points during the course of a con.

Historically, the Apophis Consortium blazes a trail for other companies, mine in particular. This just strikes me as another instance, and Dav's merely being his usual churlish self (it's much more charming in person than on-line) in pointing it out.

Identifying and using the alternate venues is a whole topic worth discussing. Does Apophis have a band? Why, yes, or more accurately, one of its co-owners is himself a musician/band. Do they have a "draw" with it? Yes, it's all quite solid industrial mind-melting stuff, with people who know about it and like it, and furthermore associated with nifty subcultures (if I understand correctly, involving clamps and rings and whatnot).

Me, I don't have either of those "yes"-s. No band, no subculture. So instead of imitating Apophis, I have to think a bit in order to emulate them, which is to say, to apply the principle they've used so effectively in a way that works for me.

As a side point, Dav, were the Unfortunate Destinies products you sold in CD form? If so, that's another important detail, as people who attend a concert or gig might be predisposed, I think, to buying CDs.

Best,
Ron

P.S. All of the above was split from the Forge 2004 thread.

Ron, there's no question in my mind that Dav had a good point. It just belonged in another thread, as you demonstrably agreed. Hence my lash-back.

Dav, when you say,

I go now.

ethan_greer wrote: Dav, when you say,

I go now.

Does that mean you're not going to participate in further conversation about guerilla marketing techniques and what-not? I hope not. I'm listening, as I'm sure others are.

I'm thinking something more primal - Dav's example is based on doing something besides gaming for at least one night out of the con, and selling games while doing it.

The "something" must involve mind-altering substances (e.g. alcohol), music, and substantial opportunities for single people to meet and have sex with one another. It should also be cool.

[Cue: Forge-type people all stare at one another in a kind of dumbfounded way ... "People do that?" says one, after a while.]

Best,
Ron

I've seen a lot of that sort of thing happen at the non-gaming trade shows I've attended.

It would be easy, I think, to do something similar to what was done with the Diana Jones awards. Rent out a space. Skip the band, and just have alcohol and poor lighting. Put up a couple banners and posters and that sort of thing. Advertise that there will be free drink tickets for anyone who shows up to playtest. I'd playtest just about anything for free alcohol.

Ron, maybe you could hand out Sorcerer-branded condoms. They could say "how far are you willing to go" on the packaging.

(blinks)

Matt, you aren't going to believe this, but that is actually a pretty good idea.

More generally, yeah, I think your rent-a-space idea is valid. Playtesting? Maybe. As part of what's going on, perhaps. I'm thinking that some kind of spectacle must be involved ...

Perhaps fairly heavy-contact martial arts sparring, with people who know what they're doing.

Or wrestlers! Geez, Kayfabe would sell like gangbusters, if the wrestlers were good and not just goobs.

Best,
Ron

Matt was talking with the WWE people at GenCon. Maybe a cross-promotional something?

How come I'm seeing something like a gladiatorial arena?

Heck, have a secondary ring where the tipsy folks can get in and participate. Like the sumo fights they have at bars, but using the foam weapons instead or somesuch. That's probably the thing that's really needed to get people to participate in such activities.

I dunno, caught up in the brainstorming.

Mike

Hey, I'm not a marketing guy for nothin'.

Anyone know how much that space at Jillian's cost to reserve? I'm imagining some kooky events like Ron describes, plus a "round the world" setup of speed-demos along the periphery. Everyone plans a 15-minute sample of their game, for more of a party atmosphere than a sales one. If they like what they see, they visit the booth the next day for a more formal playtest.

You print out a bunch of postcard-sized flyers and have people walk around the show floor.

Even better, game designers can contribute games for a "chance to win" at the event. We give out tickets to everyone who shows up and hold a drawing for the giveaway prizes.

Ron Edwards wrote: I'm thinking something more primal - Dav's example is based on doing something besides gaming for at least one night out of the con, and selling games while doing it.

What if we rented out a space like, say, Jillian's, and had drinks, conversation, some spoof award,

Mike Holmes wrote:

What if we rented out a space like, say, Jillian's, and had drinks, conversation, some spoof award,

Why a spoof? Why not the Andy/Indie Awards? Any chance Andy will be available next year? Even if not, if he'd allow it, we could hand out awards there in a ceremony.

That's a splendid idea, Mike.

Dav - yes, details, please. I guess Ron covered most of the band-stuff (there is one, which provided opportunities and covered some costs, generated an audience, and etc.), but the game-stuff . . . you sold CD's? Based on what kind of sales pitch (if any)? To music fans, or gamers, or "lifestyle enthusiasts," or others, or all-the-above?

Personal opinion - as a game-demo environment and even as a sales environment, the Forge booth is merely a "best use within existing constraints." I think it'd be better if we could get groups of people together with groups of demo runners/designers in their own "room." Folks set aside a couple-four hours to get demos of multiple games in one time slot. As I understand GenCon rules, you can't run an "event" and do sales, so this would have to happen at some sort of "off campus" facility, maybe as part of the party/event/thing.

hmm . . . or maybe, in addition to the after-hours with-alcohol and etc. event, we can reserve a (multiple?) small lunch room(s?) somewhere, from 11:30-2:30 or so. Get attendees to pitch in for food - bill it as "lunch with the designers" or something - run 2-3 demos simultaneously, get to pitch your game to 8-12 folks and eat lunch too! 4 days of the con, that turns into like 32-48 sales ops, to fairly motivated folks (as long as these lunch sessions are well-attended), for an investment of about 35-40% of available exhibitor hall hours - is that a good use of time? Maybe . . .

And 'cause I don't want to resist - Dav, while you are correct that "volunteering" all day at the Forge booth for no good reason and all that is a bit strange, the idea of YOU calling other folks "odd" is . . . Well, it gave me a chuckle.

Gordon

Gordon C. Landis wrote: Personal opinion - as a game-demo environment and even as a sales environment, the Forge booth is merely a "best use within existing constraints." I think it'd be better if we could get groups of people together with groups of demo runners/designers in their own "room." Folks set aside a couple-four hours to get demos of multiple games in one time slot. As I understand GenCon rules, you can't run an "event" and do sales, so this would have to happen at some sort of "off campus" facility, maybe as part of the party/event/thing.

We saw a really good response to the "demo starting" sign. I saw other booths that had demo sign ups.. how about combining the two? Get Paul to make a sandwich board with a "get your demos here!" sign, a sign up sheet, etc etc..

(I'm NOT volunteering to wear this, you understand.. just thinking out loud)

Justin D., you had some success using the open gaming space in the hall, didn't you? I don't recall if that was something you organized or was spontaneous, but I did see people with Pax Draconis material floating around.

-jeffrey-

So what you're saying is that they'd sign up for off-campus demos at the booth? That might work. They could even meet up with the GM at the booth, potentially. But this all obviates the reason for having the space in the first place, which is to have an alternate event to attract people. If they can't or don't get to it independently, and need the booth to get them there, then why not just run a demo at the booth?

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Actually, the rule I think you're thinking of, Gordon, is that you can't sell at events. That is, you aren't supposed to run a game, and then try to sell the game to the players. That doesn't mean that you can't run a good game and then tell the players offhandedly where the booth is in case they're interested. There's a fine line, but I believe that all the vendors that do the room thing sit right on that line.

Mike Holmes wrote: The other problem with the room idea, however, is that a room demo has some minimum time requirement - at least an hour, and probably more to attract people to play. Two hours seems the normal minimum for a demo, and four is not uncommon.

Mike Holmes wrote: So what you're saying is that they'd sign up for off-campus demos at the booth? That might work. They could even meet up with the GM at the booth, potentially. But this all obviates the reason for having the space in the first place, which is to have an alternate event to attract people. If they can't or don't get to it independently, and need the booth to get them there, then why not just run a demo at the booth?

I don't know that much about cons, or the rules for demo games and selling, but I've got a thought. Maybe someone can tell me whether it would be "legal".

I'm assuming that at demo games there would be some sort of player hand-out. A pre-gen character, a quick overview of the rules, or something like that. If there isn't, then invent one.

Add to that hand-out a discount coupon good toward purchase of the game.
So you play the demo, and then get a buck or two off the game afterwards.
It might be that little extra incentive to get the people from the demo-room to the booth to buy the game.

But it wouldn't technically be selling at the demo. Would it?

Good idea? Bad idea? Really, really dumb idea?

Calvin,

At least two different folks at GenCon reported that they had done just that in demos for various products/companies in the past. So - good idea, in general.

I think there's still a BIG difference between that and the ability to close the sale, NOW, after the demo, but such are the trade-offs of rules, I guess,

Gordon

Yeah, basically the transaction can't occur at the table (or anywhere outside the exhibitor halls; I've seen people selling Magic cards in the halls thrown out). But coupons are fine. I got a poker chip from a Pinnacle demo I played that was worth $5 off, for instance.

That doesn't make the walk to the booth any shorter or less distracting, however. You can get an assurance from the player to buy, a verbal contract, even (it might be against policy, but unenforceable), but that doesn't guaruntee that they'll show up at the booth, and tracking them down to get them to comply would be useless. Hmm, I don't suppose that we could somehow require players to go to the booth after playing a demo (perhaps escorting them)? Seems like a lot of trouble.

OTOH, many companies use this solely as their demo method, so I think that some people make it back to the booth. Oh, and IIRC some part of the money from tickets you collect used to be refunded to the GM. Used to be 1/3rd last time I ran an event, which was admittedly a few years ago.

Off-campus doesn't have this problem (we could sell on the spot), but doesn't have the advantage of being listed in the Con program, and makes advertising the location of the events difficult. Further, in either of these cases, if we have more than one location, then the designer/seller can only be at one place to hawk their games. This is the big advantage of demoing only at the booth, of course.

I love the idea of a Forge room for play, but I'm just trying to point out potential problems.

Mike

This may be obvious, but the cooler the handout, the more chance people will remember you, hit the booth, or at least take it home and look at it later. An excellent example this year was the White Wolf coasters - I grabbed a handful and they're on my table now. Sure, they're not promoting Time of Judgement anymore to me, but they're keeping it in my mind - because they're doing something /useful/.

I did buy a handful of stuff from the Forge booth, and got the bag-o-flyers with it. The stickers were cool, but most of the printed flyers were thrown away last night, mostly unread - some because I already had the game in question, some because they just didn't catch my eye, but most of all because even after I had read them once, they became clutter.

In the case of Deadlands [or Dust Devils..] poker chips are a cool idea for a handout, as are playing cards - although I know you have to print cards in rather large quantities to make them cost-effective.

Something stupidly simple like pencils/pens would also be handy at a con - I know I'm forever forgetting little things like that. Notepads with the Forge logo [or a specific game] at the top may also work well, especially for a game like Inspectres.

Also, if the demo game has pre-gen PCs, definately try and let the players keep the character sheet. Not only does it make it more practical during play if they can write on it, but it gives them something a little less generic to take home with them.

Best,
Adam

One thing I noticed at Comicon this year, along with what Adam said, is that even if something isn't 'useful', if it's at least reusable, it's more likely to be kept. I picked up some little free prints for some comic that's coming out soon; ordinarily wouldn't have been interested in the comic at all, but the glossy prints are pretty, and were being handed out as 'free art' rather than as an advertisement, for all that they were on thin, cheap glossy paper. Most of the flyers I had got dumped, but I still have those--with the name of the comic printed on them, and their website--because the pictures were just cool enough that I wanted to put them up somewhere.

RPGs might not lend themselves to this kind of visual as much as comics do, but if you do have good art and can make good-looking cheap posters or prints of it, that's another way to have people keeping the ads.

And for what it's worth, there are quite a few games I've played demos of that I would have bought if there had been coupons offered after the game. Can't resist a deal like that, especially when I've just had fun with a game. Fairy Meat, for one, which I still think would make a great RPG with just a few more rules.

I'm thinking that this will work best if it sticks with Matt Wilson's proposed Sex, Drugs and Rock & Roll formula. The promotional prophylactics idea really seemed great. For that matter, the martial arts sparring sounded pretty cool too, maybe in lieu of a band.

One thought that occurred to me was homebrew beer for homebrew games. Some bars are amenable to that in exchange for a fee. Given the mental associations of homebrewers with sex (there are none), this might break the sex, drugs and rock & roll formula. But it's an idea.

One thing I happened to remember.

At a local con there was a bunch of us who were doing the foam-padded weapon combat LARP (it has a name but I can't remember it) and an event was put on revolving around that.
There was also a Vampire LARP run at one of them.
They seemed to go over well and might be an idea to incorporate for a social event combined with roleplaying. One of the murder mystery events you hear about now and then might work as well.

Brand me a geek, but you know what I would do?

I'd find a big room with a big fucking TV, and then for like twelve hours I'd show the nastiest, most bizarre films I could cull from my DVD collection. Make sure there's booze, make sure it's interactive somehow, and hawk my splatter rpg (if I ever write it) on the side.

Hell, maybe the folks at Media Blasters, or one of the other DVD vendors would want a piece of this.

I don't know what kind of a response it would could, but at least they'd be my kind of people.

- Scott

Jeffrey Miller wrote: Justin D., you had some success using the open gaming space in the hall, didn't you? I don't recall if that was something you organized or was spontaneous, but I did see people with Pax Draconis material floating around.

Hello,

This thread is wandering badly, folks.

1. Some kind of sex & socializing activity with a stack of games on the side.

2. Demonstration sessions as a foundation for sales, either at a booth in the exhibit hall or at some demo room venue.

Two different things. I think it's time to call this thread closed, put on the "H'mmm" caps, and let the topic bake for a bit.

Best,
Ron