I'm working on a (theoretically) simple little game about space pirates. Well, Amazon Ninja Space-Pirate Catgirls, to be precise. It's supposed to be a silly, short, fun game where you run around and do slightly illegal things (in space!), using your abilities from the previously mentioned characteristics. (I do have more details available about mechanics and setting, but they're probably not relevant to this thread.) I plan to release the game as a very cheap PDF, or for free on my website, by the end of September. It should be very short, so most of the work I have left is in making sure the mechanics emulate the setting in the way I want.

I have most of the resolution mechanics worked out--a set of skills for each characteristic a PC has, 3d4 roll under, lots of criticals to keep things on the wacky/hyper end of things--but I'm not quite sure what to do about a reward mechanic. I could go with a standard set of points given at the end of each session, which could be put into skills or hit points (as those are the only numbered characteristics PCs have), but the game doesn't really seem like a long-term campaign sort of thing; it's more of a beer and pretzels game for one-shots, or maybe a very short campaign. So rewards that advance characters probably shouldn't be my primary reward mechanic.

However, I'm not sure what would work better. Using something like drama points in a game with that many criticals would push the entire system over the edge into being too ridiculously improbable to work; while it may occasionally border on Toon-level wackiness, I don't want to make it quite that ridiculous. I could just make the goal getting more loot, but what's the point of loot if you can't use it to upgrade your ship or what not, and that brings me back to the 'one shot' aspect of the game.

Consequently, I could really use some help with this issue. I haven't played many one-shots, but they've always been in some system where the reward in a game that short isn't in the mechanics, but simply in having gotten through the adventure. Do I really need a mechanic for player reward? And if so, what kind would work best for something this short and silly?

First, you don't need a reward mechanic at all. It's just not neccessary if you can't find something that works for you. Don't force one in, whatever you do.

That all said, I'd think that there would have to be some way to do an instantaneous reward mechanic that wouldn't throw things out of whack. For one, given the subject matter, I'd want to reward funny in terms of acting the part of the title creatures. Perhaps these can be used to do some sort of in-game action that can only be done with the reward tokens given. Like taking catnaps that rejuvenate them in some way (fatigue points, whathaveyou). Another typical example would be to allow them to spend a reward to automatically succeed at something with catlike aplomb without even rolling, getting to narrate how their catlike nature made it possible.

Those aren't great, but they're examples of how you could put in a mechanic that wouldn't unbalance the normal resolution. Does that give you any ideas?

Mike

Yeah, Fudge Points in (you guessed it) Fudge serve the purpose of being general reward points that let you change die rolls and stuff like that, so Fudge might be worth looking at for inspiration.

Also, I think it was Toon that had an in-game reward for players who made the GM laugh out loud, and that definitely supports silliness.

But to agree with Mike, you certainly don't need a reward system.

Well, I had considered and discarded the idea of a Buffy-like mechanic with drama points, as I thought it might overweigh a game with that many criticals. (3d4, and it's a critical whenever all three dice show the same number. You can see where it might get a bit much...) But if I don't need a reward mechanic--I'd somehow acquired the idea that I would--maybe I should skip it entirely. It's probably reasonable to provide a certain amount of in-game reward suggestions, and a character advancement mechanic if people want it, and leave it at that. Thanks for the suggestions; if it's not really necessary, I might as well leave it out.

I'm intrigued, I'd definitely like to see this.

However the 3d4 roll is a total turn-off for me. Apart from the fact that you need quite a few of an uncommon dice, I just don't enjoy 'rolling' d4s, plus it's very difficult to pick up multiple d4s after rolling.

Is there any particular reason for this rather odd pool? (I'd suggest 2d6 as an alternative but I doubt that the number range is the only reason for your choice, right?)

And Mike Holmes' catnap idea is golden; just the thought of amazon ninja space-pirate catgirls taking a round out during a firefight for a snooze (and recovery). To make it an inconvenience instead of just a recovery system, perhaps say that if a catgirl have less than full hps (or whatever injury system you might use - but I think hps would suit this quite well) a catgirl can be forced to catnap in some way (spend drama point? Whatever).

So basically if a catgirl might conceivably want to catnap, there's a chance she will regardles of how silly (from the player's point of view) the choice of moment. Cats are fickle like that.

People were buying some of the new d4 types that are available out there. First of all, there's the "tali" d4s from Fulminata, which are d8 numbered from 1-4 twice in Roman Numerals. Then, in what seems to me to be an attempt to get on this bandwagon, I saw at Chessex that they had d12s with 1-4 three times, also in Roman Numerals.

Then, too, there were people buying the rectangular, can't-stand-on-its-end d4s that people were buying to use for MLwM.

So there are a lot of options now in terms of d4s that make them less unpalatable.

One in sixteen isn't too often for criticals - only a little more regular than the "natural 20" that many are used to. So I'm not sure that the objection stands on those grounds, Heather. (It also makes for a bizare curve where 3 and 12 are not available as "normal" results, leaving a bell curve from 4 to 11. That is an interesting convention.)

Mike

To be honest, I chose 3d4 simply because I'd never seen it done before, and I like d4s. I find them cute and caltrop-like. In slightly more serious terms, the system is a stripped down simplified version of my system for a 'serious' game that uses 3d10, and 3d4 seemed like a good way to get more criticals for a more cinematic feel.

(I'm not sure I want to use 'cinematic' there; I can't think of any Amazon Ninja Space-Pirate Catgirl movies out there. But it's the only term I know of for game design that means "more over-the-top, less realistic".)

I'll have to think about the catnaps idea; it sounds like a fun, silly way to regain HP, especially since 0 HP leads to 'out of the fight' rather than 'dead', but since PCs usually have two of the four descriptors as their main characteristics, I'm not sure I want to base all HP regeneration on the Catgirl descriptor. That is, unless I gave each adjective a special benny to go with its skill list, and one's primary adjective would give that special ability... Hmm. That would actually make a pretty neat addition to the game, if I had a few options for each type, as well as making it a little more 'kewl powerz', which it's currently slightly deficient in. Will look into that and post about it in another thread when I have something worked out.

These are space pirates. Their deeds of piracy should be rewarded by an ever-increasing bounty on their heads and in-game fame and notariety. If you make this a "reputation" stat that's ever-changing (both upward and downward), and make the stat somehow important to the game (in terms of pecking order with other pirates, in terms of how much loot you can easily draw to yourself, and so on), it's at least something that players can ooh and aah over without there being a dependency on traditional notions of "experience" and "advancement".

You know, Heather, it doesn't matter what the rules are. People like me will buy ANY RPG, no matter whether it rocks or sucks, with that title/subject matter.


I'm just sayin'. ;)

True enough, Ed. But why not make the system rock as well? So that it continues to be played past it's initial honeymoon, and so that it's critically acclaimed as well as popular.

Ed's being facetious, I think (right, Ed?). He doesn't really mean that you should ignore the rules, just that you have a really grabby concept.

Everyone probably realizes this, but I just want to make sure. Things like this keep me up at night.

Mike

For the record, yeah, Mike, you're right.

BTW, Heather, for a game with no rewards/character improvement in the traditional sense, check out the late lamented Jared (who's too cool for the Forge anymore ;)'s Inspectres. In Inspectres, your business improves, but the characters in it are limited to gaining "Cool Dice," which represent the unflappability gained by surviving repeated exposure to trauma.

Sorry to butt in again, but Cool Dice are not a reward mechanic in the proper sense. Yes there is a reward, but there's nothing that a player can do to obtain the reward*. So it's missing that half of the equation.

The Franchise dice, OTOH, are a reward for completing the job. This entails making enough dice rolls, which means that it rewards player actions intended to achieve the goal of pushing the story forward. They are simply a reward held by the group as a whole.

My Life with Master has Love which is a little like Cool Dice in some ways, but does serve as a reward for making overtures to NPCs. It also has something like "victory conditions", which I think more games could have.

What it gets down to is that there might not be mechanics that are traditional rewards in many of these games. But there are mechanics that direct play in certain directions, whatever you term them. So what I'd suggest for this design, Heather, is for you to define what it is that you want to see happen in general terms, and then find a mechanic to support that.

What is it you want to see the players (not the characters) accomplish in the game?

Mike

*It could be argued that a player who tried to get his character into lightly stressful situations could be bucking for Cool Dice, but I've never seen this behavior, and I don't think it's the intent of the mechanic.

Mike Holmes wrote: What it gets down to is that there might not be mechanics that are traditional rewards in many of these games. But there are mechanics that direct play in certain directions, whatever you term them. So what I'd suggest for this design, Heather, is for you to define what it is that you want to see happen in general terms, and then find a mechanic to support that.

What is it you want to see the players (not the characters) accomplish in the game?

Mike

I think the key there is to really take advantage of the fact that characters are just pieces of paper so its really always a matter of what the players want.

For instance, you have a good grasp of the type of behaviors you want the characters to do...what will motivate the players to choose to have their characters do those sorts of things.

Some of this is related to basic design. For instance if you want characters to rush in where angels fear to tread in high flying ninja action, and then design a game system which requires careful thought and planning in order for characters to be effective, you've effectively motivated the players to have their character's carefully plan...not the effect you were going for.

Some of this is related to the reward mechanic. One of the simplest ways to accomplish this in a game design is to make a list of all of the behaviors you'd like to see the players have their characters perform.

This might be "high flying two fisted action" or it might be "take frequent cat naps". The trick is to give a reward for one type of action that is used in one type of situation and allow it to be spent for the other type of action used in a different situation.


You might do something like:

if the character cat naps the player gain an action oriented bennie that can be spent to enhance action oriented activities like high flying two fisted ninja stuff.

if the character preens and grooms (another cat like action), the player gains a social bennie that can be spent to enhance social oriented activities (or even stealth based ninja activities...like preparing the camo).

You then might say there's a limit to how many total bennies a character can possess at any one time. This limit means the player has to choose between a lot of sleeping which give good action bonuses (but messes up the fur something aweful) or a lot of grooming which gives good social bonuses (but interferes with nap time) or some mix, so theres a resource management aspect along with it.

You then might tie the limit to some OTHER activity you want to give a reward for, so that doing that other activity makes the character more effective by allowing them to store more bennies. This other activity could be tied to the pirate aspect of play. The more loot you score the higher your bennie limit is.

Sooo, at that point you have:

1) motivate the pirate aspects by encouraging the player to go after loot to increase the bennie limit

2) motive the cat-like behavior aspects by tieing earning bennies into performing those behaviors

3) motivate the ninja action by making success at such high flying stunts and ninja trickery easier by spending bennies.


If you really wanted to tie a character improvement aspect to it, I'd bring it full circle by giving character points for spending the loot. After all that motivates the other pirate behavior of spending loot as fast as they make it and also periodically resets the bennie limit such that its necessary to go out and pursue more loot.

And these are just ideas, however: examples. Not having seen most of what you have, we really can't directly comment. Try to take the principles of what we're describing and apply them to what you do have.

So, perhaps the catnap thing doesn't work at all (it was just off the top of my head) for what you have in mind. Look at what you do have, and find the similar activity that you want to promote, and then make mechanics around it.

Further, this is such a specific idea that you really need to avoid including rules for things that you don't need to. That is, just as mechanics about the things you want to see will promote that sort of thing occuring in-game, having rules for the unimportant things will detract. This is basically a broader statement of the example that Ralph gave. If you don't want people to be calculating about combat, then don't put rules in that require that sort of behavior. The same goes for anything. If you don't care to see players spending time thinking about which raygun to purchase, then don't make any differences between them. Have effectiveness in that area be determined by character effectiveness alone (I'm thinking a Reflexes stat or somthing catlike).

See the game InSpectres for how to focus play in such a tight manner (or My Life with Master, better yet).

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Further, this is such a specific idea that you really need to avoid including rules for things that you don't need to. That is, just as mechanics about the things you want to see will promote that sort of thing occuring in-game, having rules for the unimportant things will detract. This is basically a broader statement of the example that Ralph gave. If you don't want people to be calculating about combat, then don't put rules in that require that sort of behavior. The same goes for anything. If you don't care to see players spending time thinking about which raygun to purchase, then don't make any differences between them. Have effectiveness in that area be determined by character effectiveness alone (I'm thinking a Reflexes stat or somthing catlike).

See the game InSpectres for how to focus play in such a tight manner (or My Life with Master, better yet).

Mike

Well, we're starting to get into other territory than your original post asked for. If you want to look at other topics, I think that posting your rules, and starting a new thread might be a good idea. OTOH, you might want to wait for the playtest and see how it goes and raise some new issues then. Whatever works for you.

Mike

Mike Holmes wrote: Well, we're starting to get into other territory than your original post asked for. If you want to look at other topics, I think that posting your rules, and starting a new thread might be a good idea. OTOH, you might want to wait for the playtest and see how it goes and raise some new issues then. Whatever works for you.

Mike

Heather Manley wrote: I think I'll likely add Notoriety to that...

I'm not quite sure what to do with Loot, though; at the moment, better ships/weapons have no actual effect in the game, so far as mechanics go, so there's no particular mechanics-supported reason to buy them, unless they're weapons/ships/stuff that let you do things you otherwise couldn't do at all. (Sensors on the new ship so that you can track down other ships from far away, built in grappling hook on your new katana, etc.) I'm hesitant to start giving stats to weapons and ships, because that does detract from the 'whack them with whatever you're best at' feel that I prefer when it comes to combat.

(If it would be helpful to the discussion for me to put up all the rules for the game on a website for easy access, I can do that; it just hasn't seemed necessary so far.)

iago wrote:

(If it would be helpful to the discussion for me to put up all the rules for the game on a website for easy access, I can do that; it just hasn't seemed necessary so far.)

Please do.

I like the skill grouping divisions, and the mechanics are pretty lightweight with an intriguing criticals method, but I think the system really needs more stuff that's specifically tailored to the narrowly defined theme (well, if not theme, then... amazon ninja catgirl pirateness) of the game. I think adding in the notoriety and loot elements will help, and may be enough, but I'm not sure if that's all there needs to be there to get the flavor right.

iago wrote: I like the skill grouping divisions, and the mechanics are pretty lightweight with an intriguing criticals method, but I think the system really needs more stuff that's specifically tailored to the narrowly defined theme (well, if not theme, then... amazon ninja catgirl pirateness) of the game. I think adding in the notoriety and loot elements will help, and may be enough, but I'm not sure if that's all there needs to be there to get the flavor right.

Heather Manley wrote: If those aren't enough...mm. I'm not quite sure what to add. Setting description, sample adventures, GM and player suggestions and the like... Those things should help, but if I really need more in the mechanics to keep the system working for the game I want, this is probably the time I should be adding them in. Do you have any ideas as to what feels like it's 'missing' in this case? It's the reward mechanic that I really felt a need for, and thus this thread: if there's some other type of mechanic that I'm overlooking that would help me with theme, I'd be grateful for any suggestions in that direction.

iago wrote: That I'm not entirely sure of. The whole Notoriety and Loot thing seems pretty specific to the 'Space Pirate' bit, and that's just a fourth of each character, supposedly.

Heather Manley wrote: I'm going to have to go take a look at the game and see if I want to just go ahead and right out make that the focus, or allow for each quarter to be the focus instead, and then see how I'm going to support either of those in mechanics. I'll bring back some revised mechanics when I've worked that out.