Topic: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
Started by: Space Cowboy
Started on: 8/7/2003
Board: Publishing
On 8/7/2003 at 12:34am, Space Cowboy wrote:
Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
Hey all,
I wanted to float an idea that occurred to me today: How feasible is it for small game companies to get together to make common/similar purchases, increasing bargaining power to get lower prices, better terms, etc. For example, this is how some American states and other countries are able to lower prices for prescription drugs for their citizens. In principle, this should also work, for example, for a group of RPG companies looking for a printer to print their game.
I realize that there are a number of practical difficulties (e.g., finding financially solvent, trustworthy, and reliable partners, organizing people, etc.), but I just wanted to hear what people though about the feasibility of such a plan?
Many thanks in advance!
On 8/7/2003 at 7:51pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
What products do you think would apply? I mean, print runs can't be merged (can they?), and art usually has to be specific to the product in question. If there was something that was "shareable", I'd think it was a great idea. I'm just not seeing what would apply. Did you have something in mind?
Mike
On 8/7/2003 at 8:44pm, HinterWelt wrote:
RE: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
Many printers will consider discounts to organizations that can channel membership (and tus business) their way. Depending on the product you could have a number of elelments companies would give a mass discount for (miniatures for wargames, packaging elements for board games, etc)
Bill
On 8/7/2003 at 8:47pm, iago wrote:
RE: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
It occurs to me that people writing multiple 'small' games could potentially get them all printed up in a kind of 'anthology' that wraps a single cover around them, for cost savings, but channeling the profits back to the various parties sounds, to my novice ear, like way too much headache to be worth it. Pity.
On 8/7/2003 at 10:38pm, gobi wrote:
RE: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
iago wrote: It occurs to me that people writing multiple 'small' games could potentially get them all printed up in a kind of 'anthology' that wraps a single cover around them, for cost savings, but channeling the profits back to the various parties sounds, to my novice ear, like way too much headache to be worth it. Pity.
If the price was right, and at least more than half the games were of particular note, I'd buy something like that. The games in the anthology could be highly tightened, succinct summaries of the settings, systems and character creation. A message board could be set up for the individual games. If one particular game got very popular, the creator would have the capital at least do a small print run of his own creation.
In a best case scenario, the creator of a "bad" game will be bouyed by the success and quality of the other games in the book. Some creators may not believe this could happen to them but could still fear being labeled as such. With that fear, they may decide to stick it out and succeed on their own rather than teaming up for an anthology.
Shameless plug: PUNK is going to be published as an anthology much like this, but in PDF format with the same system all the way through.
On 8/9/2003 at 2:32am, Space Cowboy wrote:
RE: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
Mike Holmes wrote: What products do you think would apply? I mean, print runs can't be merged (can they?), and art usually has to be specific to the product in question. If there was something that was "shareable", I'd think it was a great idea. I'm just not seeing what would apply. Did you have something in mind?
Mike
Hey Mike,
Thanks for replying to my post! I wasn't thinking about merging print runs, per se, but just adding jobs to buy collectively to gain negotiating leverage. For example, if A has a print job that's has a lowest quote of acceptable quality from printers of $4000 and B has a print job (that's totally different in size, format, etc.) with a lowest quote of $6000, perhaps they can goto a printer and, in exchange for printing both runs, only pay a combined $9900, saving $100 (which might be divided in proportion to the print runs: $40 to A and $60 to B).
Thus, the printer would get more business, and A and B would get a better combined price than it either of them negotiated separately. And, of course, the buyers would get even more leverage if there were more buyers (e.g., C has a $2000 job, D has a $3000 job, etc.).
Moreover, the same principle applies to anything else that RPG companies might all buy (e.g., ad rates, convention booths, etc.).
I don't see any theoretical reasons why this tactic shouldn't work. There are countless real world examples.
However, I was curious whether it is feasible to pull something like this off?
On 8/9/2003 at 2:42am, Space Cowboy wrote:
RE: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
HinterWelt wrote: Many printers will consider discounts to organizations that can channel membership (and tus business) their way. Depending on the product you could have a number of elelments companies would give a mass discount for (miniatures for wargames, packaging elements for board games, etc)
Bill
Hey Bill,
Thanks for the heading up on that piece of information! I am curious, what is the size of the discounts that printers, magazines, conventions, etc., are willing to give to members of such organizations? (I assume that the GPA is one?) 1%? 5%? 10%? 20%?
In other words, how much pull do these organizations have? Can you get a better discount by simply organizing a collective buy on mailing lists, forums, word-of-mouth, etc.?
Many thanks in advance!
On 8/9/2003 at 2:55am, Space Cowboy wrote:
RE: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
gobi wrote:iago wrote: It occurs to me that people writing multiple 'small' games could potentially get them all printed up in a kind of 'anthology' that wraps a single cover around them, for cost savings, but channeling the profits back to the various parties sounds, to my novice ear, like way too much headache to be worth it. Pity.
If the price was right, and at least more than half the games were of particular note, I'd buy something like that. The games in the anthology could be highly tightened, succinct summaries of the settings, systems and character creation. A message board could be set up for the individual games. If one particular game got very popular, the creator would have the capital at least do a small print run of his own creation.
In a best case scenario, the creator of a "bad" game will be bouyed by the success and quality of the other games in the book. Some creators may not believe this could happen to them but could still fear being labeled as such. With that fear, they may decide to stick it out and succeed on their own rather than teaming up for an anthology.
Hello Fred and Daniel,
Thanks for your replies to my post!
Hmm... I hadn't thought of the anthology angle, but you guys are definitely right in that an anthology would be another way to pool buying dollars.
I have no idea how something like this might sell, but, if grouped properly, it might work. For example, the customer of the anthology might be able to borrow from a bunch of different game settings in crafting his own campaign world.
It would probably work better if there was something "special" about the group of games in the anthology, like a "best of 2003", or all the winners/nominees of a generally recognized award. For example, I think that you can buy, in anthology, all the hugo or nebula award nominees.
Daniel, you have also hit a big potential problem with anthologies- free riders (i.e., publishers who don't pull their own weight and ride off the work of others).
On 8/9/2003 at 2:59am, iago wrote:
RE: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
Space Cowboy wrote: It would probably work better if there was something "special" about the group of games in the anthology, like a "best of 2003", or all the winners/nominees of a generally recognized award. For example, I think that you can buy, in anthology, all the hugo or nebula award nominees.
Well, sure. There's also the idea of doing a themed grouping ("here are 12 games about childhood").
On 8/9/2003 at 4:36am, gobi wrote:
RE: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
Space Cowboy wrote: Daniel, you have also hit a big potential problem with anthologies- free riders (i.e., publishers who don't pull their own weight and ride off the work of others).
What might work is if the anthology was hand selected by some big name in the RPG business. He or she writes an introductory section and the rest of the creators fill up the book with their works. The big commercial appeal of this is that the anthology can be packaged as "(Big name) presents..."
On 8/9/2003 at 5:19am, HinterWelt wrote:
RE: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
Space Cowboy wrote:HinterWelt wrote: Many printers will consider discounts to organizations that can channel membership (and tus business) their way. Depending on the product you could have a number of elelments companies would give a mass discount for (miniatures for wargames, packaging elements for board games, etc)
Bill
Hey Bill,
Thanks for the heading up on that piece of information! I am curious, what is the size of the discounts that printers, magazines, conventions, etc., are willing to give to members of such organizations? (I assume that the GPA is one?) 1%? 5%? 10%? 20%?
In other words, how much pull do these organizations have? Can you get a better discount by simply organizing a collective buy on mailing lists, forums, word-of-mouth, etc.?
Many thanks in advance!
Disocounts are not always calculated that way. For instance, We were able to participate in a coop ad for Gencon and Origins through the GPA. It was $160 USD or something like that for a quarter page(Newspaper size) color add. Normally about 200 USD so about 20%. Other things that we have not done are coop booths. I am not sure about these but from what I have heard they are more a case of splitting costs as opposed to direct discounts. Impressions gets us free shipping for a palet worth of product from Bang, Patterson and Central Plains to his warehouse. Saved us over $200 on the last print run. He is also getting us a full table as part of his block at GTS for about a $100 savings (something like 15%). In other cases he has arranged for retailers to carry product at cons giving us some, if limited, exposure at a number of cons.
Does that help? I do not have these numbers directly in front of me (Linda takes care of that part) but I am close.
Bill
On 8/9/2003 at 6:11am, Simon W wrote:
RE: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
Well, there's nothing stopping us giving the anthology idea a go with the Iron Chef Game or 24 Hour rpg entries or some other combination of games developed here at the Forge, is there?
I was going to work on SuperCity next anyway and I believe other authors were going to work on their gamess. This would provide more of an incentive to actually get our arses in gear and finish them.
Simon
Beyond Belief Games
The home of Lashings of Ginger Beer
On 8/9/2003 at 4:18pm, iago wrote:
RE: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
Gideon wrote: Well, there's nothing stopping us giving the anthology idea a go with the Iron Chef Game or 24 Hour rpg entries or some other combination of games developed here at the Forge, is there?
Yeah, that's exactly what I had in mind. The whole 'Big Name Presents...' bit could dovetail with that, too, especially if Big Name defined some aspect of the "contest".
On 8/9/2003 at 9:19pm, gobi wrote:
RE: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
iago wrote: Yeah, that's exactly what I had in mind. The whole 'Big Name Presents...' bit could dovetail with that, too, especially if Big Name defined some aspect of the "contest".
The challenge with the big name gimmick is finding someone with name recognition and who we can trick into slapping their John Hancock on the cover. :)
On 8/10/2003 at 2:52pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Increasing bargaining power- collective bargaining
Hello,
We have two topics in this thread: the original one, concerning sharing some aspect of promotion or publication costs, and the second one, concerning an anthology publication of games.
Both of them have been discussed in some detail in previous Forge threads, and I invite anyone interested in the anthology idea to do some back-tracking through thread titles.
The topic for this thread is the original one, concerning sharing costs.
1. Traditional printers (plates, film) won't split a given print-run for two different books, even for the same client. I think it's almost certainly not possible for separate clients. The single instance I've heard of someone doing something like this involved a strong insider track.
Digital or other non-traditional printers ... who knows? It's a new technology and a new market.
In my experience, a given printer will be helpful on the "small stuff" during future projects for a person who sends clients their way, but not give discounts. (One man's experience; printers may vary.) Whether this extends to an organization of some kind is another issue, but I suspect that the organization would have to exert more economic force than something like the Forge, which is neither a company nor even an imprint.
2. Splitting or sharing costs for services like advertisement, warehousing, and shipping is common among businesses of all kinds. It happens all the time in our community, especially for those of us who use a fulfillment house like Impressions or Tundra.
Best,
Ron