I don't know if I was the first person to suggest it, but I do recall coining it at one point when someone gave some kind of example or other.

Unfortunately, I don't remember where or what the circumstance were for my comment, but I'll bet it was mostly a lame joke, like most of my comments.

Thinking on it now, I seem to recall it involved some style of gaming where the players had no input or means of interacting playing.

(If anyone find that original post before me, let me know.)

Audience Stance could enter the lexicon for completeness sake but really isn't a stance worth having.

It's like the many angles you can sit to watch TV. If you're behind the television you can't see nullifying the point of watching TV.

Or such is my take on the term when I used it. (or as I recall. I'll judge better when I find the original post.)

Yes, it is a stance worth having. Or perhaps, an unavoidable stance, given that not everyone can be in the spotlight at the same time.

Most games I've been in started with an opening narration: "A long time away in a galaxy far far away..." At this point players are necessarily in audience stance, absorbing relevant information.

When the spotlight has focussed on one player or character, the other players are in effect in Audience stance, observing but not participating in the action, acquiring information as the player rather than as the character.

I think the significance of Audience stance can be illustrated with reference to Star Wars. In episode 4, Vader plants a bug on the Millenium Falcon to track the fleeing heroes to the rebel base, unbeknownst to them. The Audience becomes aware of this, however, and so the arrival of the Death Star around Yavin does not come as a surprise. This is authors plot exposition. The characters do not need to know this and indeed do not. If this were an RPG, there are complications to do with firewalling and whatnot, but in essence the same technique can be exploited.

The advantage here is, to use a ciontemporary buzzphrase, the managing of expectation. Characters in an entirely single-author-directed work are herded into the story by a central intellect who, by virtue of maintaining a clear Premise, knows what they want to do next and can rationalise ways to make it happen. Where characters are authored by players, this central vision does not exist and the potential for characters doing things that are internally consistent but outside the scope of the game at the table is very large. The opportunity afforded by Audience stance is to inform the PLAYER directly, and the character tacitly, as to what is expected of them. Although honest players will attempt to not act on that information, subconsciously their expectations as to the momentum of the story have been framed correctly such that they are able to constructively contribute. The simple fact of having this knowledge in the player minds will to some extent influence their expectations and behaviours.

Thus, I think, prompting Audience stance in players can be an extremely useful technique for ensuring that everyone stays on the same page, as it were.

Gareth,

That's a very strong argument. I think this topic could use a good shaking down, although I'm pretty sure it belongs in the RPG Theory rather than in the GNS forum (a quibble).

Others' thoughts on the matter are greatly desired.

Best,
Ron

While I think that being a member of the audience during part of the game is an essential and under-appreciated role, I don't think its an actual stance.

"Stance is defined as how a person arrives at
decisions for an imaginary character’s imaginary actions"

As audience, you're provided information you wouldn't otherwise know, and while that information might effect what actions you take as part of your stance, I don't it is a separate stance in itself. During your time as audience, you are not involved in decision making but rather being a valuable witness to someone else's acting/directing/authorship.

Laurel

Hi there,

As a SMALL contribution to this issue - as an example of the kind of thinking going on - I identify a lot of player contribution as "co-authoring." Sam is playing Sebastian, and Sebastian is center-stage in a scene. Well, Bob is playing Bartholemew, but Bartholemew is in suspended animation.

All right, Bob is (to my way of thinking) not role-playing Bartholemew at all. He is engaged in what's going on for two reasons. (1) He's gathering information to be prepared for when Bartholemew gets back into commission, in which case we can see him in PREPARATION for role-playing, but not really in any stance at all because he's not role-playing.

Or (2), he could be shoehorning himself into Sam's role-playing of Sebastian, with enthusiastic reactions or suggestions or whatever. If Sam is OK with this, then basically we have Bob going into author stance regarding Sebastian (not his character, but that is not an issue).

Any other form of engagement isn't role-playing either (i.e. watching the show fully as an audience member). I am saying that taking an Audience ROLE is understandable, but that it is not a STANCE because the player isn't determining a character's action (or "world's" action if you want to be complete about it).

This post was a little garbled, but with any luck I've managed to present where my head is on this topic.

Best,
Ron

Well, look at the way audiences at sports events have a psychological relationship with the actual eprfromers or players. They identify to a very strong degree, identify with the fortunes of the players by proxy. I think this kind of thing - "of but not in" - is audience as a stance. The audience is not merely a passive observer, even though they are not making active decisions. If stances are restrcited to what occurs in the physical session, then some accomdoation for "temporarily inactive" players must be made.

Contracycle wrote:

Well, look at the way audiences at sports events have a psychological relationship with the actual performers or players. They identify to a very strong degree, identify with the fortunes of the players by proxy. I think this kind of thing - "of but not in" - is audience as a stance. The audience is not merely a passive observer, even though they are not making active decisions. If stances are restricted to what occurs in the physical session, then some accommodation for "temporarily inactive" players must be made.

I'm having a little trouble with that distinction Ron. I absolutely understand what you're saying with Audience as a "Role" exists but its not a "Stance". I don't understand (perhaps similar to another thread) why that distinction is being made.

If The Role of Audience exists, instead of creating a whole seperate niche for it, what is the harm in just labeling it a Stance and including it with the others. It is alike in all other ways. It is an attitude towards the current events of a roleplaying game affected at various times by the game's participants. One can shift from Author to Audience and back again, just as one can shift from Author to Actor and back again.

To say that Actor and Author are both actively involved in shared authorship, but Audience is just a passive observer I think is splitting hairs far too finely. It may be technically correct but I don't see where the distinction adds anything but confusion.

Plus I do think Gareth is on to something with the sports fan analogy. Consider: Albert is currently playing and is in Audience "mode". His non gaming girlfriend wanders in and stands near the wall for a few minutes watching the proceedings trying to understand what is so appealing about this activity. SHE is the passive observer. ALBERT is far more involved in the game even if his character is currently off stage. Clearly his involvement, even at that point in time has more in common with the other players than with his girlfriend (assuming he isn't using the down time for other things like grabbing a snack or scoring brownie points or something).

Hey,

I'll get back to this issue in more detail later, but for now, please note: I never mentioned a word about being a "passive observer." I chose my term carefully - that audience-ing is a ROLE, which indeed means doing stuff, feeling stuff, communicating stuff, and so on.

I think that when that role contributes to decisions of characters (by influencing players who ARE in a Stance) than it becomes Stance, usually Author or Director. I think that when it doesn't, it is still an active Role thing.

It's not Stance because of Stance's definition; I can't get much clearer than that. "Stance" is not defined as "what a person does at a role-playing table," but rather as "how a role-playing participant determines a character's decisions and actions."

Best,
Ron

On 2001-10-16 09:52, Ron Edwards wrote:
It's not Stance because of Stance's definition; I can't get much clearer than that. "Stance" is not defined as "what a person does at a role-playing table," but rather as "how a role-playing participant determines a character's decisions and actions."

Actually, to interject here (and the admins can move this to the RPG Theory Forum. That would be better. I'd do it myself but I don't think I can.)

IIRC the Audience Stance I mentioned was something along the lines of the GM telling you what your character feels or would do. Control over the character's actions or decisions are effectively taken out of the player's hands.

Does this happen? Should this be considered a Stance? I think that if it is called a Stance, it is called such facetiously. It's more useful to name it as a warning for what not to do since it takes on of the reasons to roleplay away.

But that's my theory.

Hmm, I'm not aware of Audience stance having been used to indicate loss of player control myself. But thats just my experience. But I am also unhappy with ditching a hitherto acknowledged stance withou clear motive.

Hello,

My argument is that we do NOT have an acknowledged "Audience Stance" as part of the lexicon.

No one has defined it. I have spent some time looking up references here on the Forge, and clearly this term was mentioned, then picked up by some people as an "obvious" or otherwise-established term.

So that's the problem. Ralph, for instance, may have a very clear idea what HE thinks the term means, and may be assuming that the rest of us simply know exactly what he means by it. Well, we don't. I sure don't. It has never been discussed or established.

I suggest an Audience Stance thread in RPG Theory. If someone wants to start it, I'll pick with Ralph's trenchant question about WHY I'm being sticky about roles and Stances ... but not until I get some proposed definitions first.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote:

My argument is that we do NOT have an acknowledged "Audience Stance" as part of the lexicon.

No one has defined it. I have spent some time looking up references here on the Forge, and clearly this term was mentioned, then picked up by some people as an "obvious" or otherwise-established term.

Good enough, Fang. You've caught me out.

Now, can we go to RPG Theory and discuss Audience (whatever) there now, please?

Best,
Ron

psst, Ron. Click the little arrow at the bottom of the the page and you can move the thread to RPG Theory. No muss. No fuss. No need for a brand new thread.I'd do it, but you need to be a forum moderator to do it. WHich you are.

That said, after much thought I can't see a use for an Audience Stance since any of the possible things Audience can do would also fall under one of the other stances.

The only possibility is essentially actor stance without a character. This is something I'm trying to nail the text for The Wheel, so I'll put it in that game's context.

Essentially, as one player is telling his character's story, the other players watch. All they can do is ask questions to clairify the seen, such as description to help visualize. Of course the other players can go into author or director stance at any time by spending tokens to introduce their own character to a scene, take the role of an NPC, Object to or Suggest an event and so on. But until they do, they're stuck in a null mode of observing the scene as it plays out, but unable to effect it as an Author or Director.

Maybe this isn't worth having as a stance, at least not until a game besides mine makes serious use for it. (Once is coincidence, three times is enemy action? I forget.) However, maybe a stance description here is worthwhile because the players aren't doing nothing as they sit there. Or they aren't reading or doodling on their character sheet like I tend to do while I play D&D and my character isn't present.

I don't know. Is it?

Already taken care of it. :smile: