The Forge Reference Project

 

Topic: Must-read/view Samurai stuff
Started by: Jake Norwood
Started on: 8/11/2003
Board: The Riddle of Steel


On 8/11/2003 at 8:26am, Jake Norwood wrote:
Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Okay, so I'm compiling a list of "the essentials" for the Riddle of Japan or whatever I'm going to call the book that we're doing after TFOB and before SATF...

I've got lots of Kurosawa Movies, A Book of 5 Rings, and a slew of other stuff. My recent favorite is "Code of the Samurai" which is really a translation of the 17th century book "Bushido for Beginners," which may really be the best explanation of Bushido I've ever read.

Do any of you have some suggestions? My list is pretty large, and I'm pretty well read, but there's always stuff that slips through the cracks...

Jake

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On 8/11/2003 at 8:59am, 6inTruder wrote:
Japanese Influence

Sword of Doom (movie, set around 1870)
Everyday Life in Traditional Japan, by Dunn (book, more for Tokugawa Japan though)
Hired Swords, by Karl Friday (who has another book wich is also good, but I can't find it right now)

um... I'll edit in more when I dig them out of the mess on my bed...

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On 8/11/2003 at 1:29pm, murazor wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

The movie "Seppuku" from 1962 (sometimes known as Harakiri).
A story about a pennyless ronin desperate to support his pregnant wife, it may be hard to find but it offers a valuable insight into the psychology and sociology of seppuku in the Tokugawa-era, as well as a few stunning swordfights (of the realistic kind).

And in case you've managed to avoid it; The manga "Lone Wolf and Cub". Less realistic (Ogami Itto single handedly cuts down half of the samurai in Japan in his quest for revenge), but filled with great cinematic art and rich portrayals of 17th century Japan.

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On 8/11/2003 at 2:27pm, GreatWolf wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Well, it would stun me if you don't already know about this one, but the Hagakure is a worthwhile read on the topic.

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

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On 8/11/2003 at 3:50pm, toli wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

In terms of other games, I've got a Runequest suppliment on Japan. I think it is called Land of the Samurai. It is quite well done I think. (They also did a good Viking one). I don't use it much. If you would like to see it I can lend it to you...NT

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On 8/11/2003 at 6:35pm, contracycle wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

I liked:

"Unbeaten Tracks in Japan - An Account of Travels in the Interior Inlcluding Visits to the Aborigines of Yezo and the Shrine of Nikko"
Isabella L. Bird 492508027x

Isabella Bird was something of an adventurous victorian lady traveler and this is her diary, pretty much, from visiting the north eastern district hinterland in 1878, and quite a gem of personal observation. Part of its value is that much of this hinterland is essentially unchanged from hundreds of years previously.

"The Origins of Japans Medieval World - Courtiers, Clerics, Warriors and Peasants in the Fourteenth Century" Jeffrey P. Mass 0804743797 It's an anthology of articles, and although earlier than your period but I'm think the medieval context of Japan is important for its later developement and the kinds of problems it felt itself to be addressing.

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On 8/11/2003 at 7:13pm, Bankuei wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Movies, TV, anime, etc.

Yojimbo
Ran
Sword of Doom(I second the previous recommendation)
Hakkenden
Samurai X

Comics-

The Young Master(Larry Hamas rules!)
The Path
Lone Wolf and Cub(second recommendation)
Usagi Yojimbo(THE definitive Samurai comic)
Vagabond(Miyamoto Musashi!)
Legend of Kamui

Books

The Martial Artist's Book of 5 Rings(Stephen J Kaufman)
The Unfettered Mind (Takuan Soho)

Chris

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On 8/11/2003 at 8:55pm, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Hell, it's still a TROS Game. Absolutely essential reading is The Art of War, by Sun Tzu.

We've all heard of it, but how many of us have actually read it? I have, and it's bloody interesting. It's very very true when you hear that all the concepts in it are still applicable today (They're also applicable in Weyrth).

Brian.

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On 8/11/2003 at 8:58pm, tralese wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Have you seen the movie, the seven samurais?
It gives quite a good insight on the cultural aspects of samurais, peasants, and their interactions.

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On 8/11/2003 at 9:58pm, prophet118 wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

im probably going to get booed out of here...

but...

tom cruise has a new movie coming out, it was in the previews at Pirates of the caribean (excellant movie by the way)...

its called "The Last Samurai"... it at least looks interesting.. heh

course... to catch typical gamers now, toss in some samurai jack

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On 8/11/2003 at 10:03pm, GreatWolf wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Brian Leybourne wrote: Hell, it's still a TROS Game. Absolutely essential reading is The Art of War, by Sun Tzu.

We've all heard of it, but how many of us have actually read it? I have, and it's bloody interesting. It's very very true when you hear that all the concepts in it are still applicable today.


No kidding. Once when I was reading it (geek that I am, I've read it several times), I realized that most of Vietnam ignored the basic principles laid down in the book. It is mostly so common sense until you realize that most losing armies have ignored it.

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

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On 8/11/2003 at 11:05pm, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

prophet118 wrote: itom cruise has a new movie coming out, it was in the previews at Pirates of the caribean (excellant movie by the way)...

its called "The Last Samurai"... it at least looks interesting.. heh


Ahem.. filmed in the wonderous landscape of New Zealand even, much like LoTR was (although they digitally added in Mt Fuji). Bloody nice scenery.

However, I wouldn't go about offering up films that you haven't seen as good source material... being a Tom Cruise film, I suspect that the scenery is going to be the only thing worth seeing it for. :-)

Brian.

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On 8/11/2003 at 11:29pm, Jake Norwood wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Assume that I've seen every Kurosawa movie. 6 times. Some of these are new reccomendations, though, which is what I wanted.

Jake

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On 8/12/2003 at 2:56am, prophet118 wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Brian Leybourne wrote:
prophet118 wrote: itom cruise has a new movie coming out, it was in the previews at Pirates of the caribean (excellant movie by the way)...

its called "The Last Samurai"... it at least looks interesting.. heh


Ahem.. filmed in the wonderous landscape of New Zealand even, much like LoTR was (although they digitally added in Mt Fuji). Bloody nice scenery.

However, I wouldn't go about offering up films that you haven't seen as good source material... being a Tom Cruise film, I suspect that the scenery is going to be the only thing worth seeing it for. :-)

Brian.


ah,. but i didnt suggest that he/she go see it, or use it for source material, i merely said that tom cruise has a new movie c oming out that has to do with samurais, and that it looked interesting, dont jump to conclusion brian... i know, i know, this is a suggestion post, and perhaps i should see the film before i suggest it...but, thats just a blunder i guess

but again, i didnt say "OMG this spiff new movie is coming out thats right along the lines of what you wanted"......i just suggested that it MAY be worth seeing

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On 8/12/2003 at 2:59am, Draigh wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

What about Shogun?
It's been a long time since I've seen it though... I don't remember how relevant it would be.

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On 8/12/2003 at 4:51am, kenjib wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Brian Leybourne wrote: ... being a Tom Cruise film, I suspect that the scenery is going to be the only thing worth seeing it for. :-)


Well, that and my Mom, who is an extra in the film. See is a shocked grandmother in the background when someone's head gets chopped off. We'll see if she made the final cut when it is released. :D

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On 8/12/2003 at 4:54am, kenjib wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Oh, and that also means that while some landscapes may be done in New Zealand, many other parts were filmed in studios in Los Angeles.

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On 8/12/2003 at 5:15am, Quadral wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

For flavor and background/history, I heartily recommend "The Tale of the Heike." It's the Japanese equivalent of Romance of the 3 Kingdoms or the Iliad and talks about the fall of the Taira and rise of the Minamoto in the 12th Century. In my experience, most stuff on samurai is on the Sengoku age or during the Tokugawa era, which leaves out a lot of depth.

I've read the version translated by Helen McCullough, which is good.

Also, the story of the 47 Samurai/Ronin is must (and a great example of how spiritual attributes can drive people). I can't recommend any of the translated books (as I haven't read any of them), but I have seen Japanese dramas and heard stories about it.

I would also recommend Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa (Taiko is interesting too, but not so much to do with combat).

...as for books and movies with actual useful fighting stuff, I'll have to think about it.

Finally, it's not a book or movie, but I'd like to put a plug in for the jitte (probably a defensive weapons with the cut and thrust style, though I don't know how you'd do the sword breaking) and the kusari-gama. I hope they make it in.

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On 8/12/2003 at 10:56am, Ben Morgan wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

I have to recommend "Shinju" by Laura Joh Rowland. Classic murder mystery set in Tokugawa-era Japan. The main character Sano is a recently appointed yoriki in Edo, investigating what appears to be a suicide pact between a nobleman's daughter and a commoner, but turns out to be much more. Sano risks everything - his position, his honor, his family, not to mention his life - in his pursuit of the truth.

Mulder had it easy in comparison.

-- Ben

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On 8/12/2003 at 11:11am, Kaare Berg wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

If you want a twist that at the same time discusses Hagakure, check out the movie Ghost Dog. Setting wise it is nothing, but the retainer/loyalty/honour conflict is dead on.

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On 8/12/2003 at 11:52am, Tony Irwin wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Kudos to Qudral for mentioning Musashi by Eiji Yokishawa, its a gripping novelisation of the life of the Musashi credited with the Book of 5 Rings - stacked with great RPG material, his SAs drive the whole story.

The Samurai Sourcebook by Stephen Turnbull. Great historical writer, I used this one for general information for our L5R games. He has a slew of books out with more specific subjects. I understand some of the recent L5R writers corresponded with him while researching.

Ninja: The True Story of Japan's Secret Warrior Cult, by Stephen Turnbull. I don't own this yet but have it on order. Reason I bring it up is that everyone who first comes to a samurai game (including me) seems to think Cool! I'll play a Ninja! Turnbull seems very grounded in historical research, I'm hoping this book will give me something that strips away the "American Ninja in Feudal Japan" images ;-)

There's a trilogy of films based off the Musashi novel, I'll list them but haven't seen them so can't vouch for any:

Musashi Miyamoto, Duel at Ichijoji Temple, and Duel at Ganyru Island, all staring The Man, Toshiro Mifune.

The Tale of Murasaki, by Liza Dalby a kind of diarised novelisation of Murasaki Shikibu's life, she wrote Tale of Genji which I think I recall may have been the world's first novel? (maybe depends how you define novel). Anyway gives wonderful insight into customs, superstitions, culture and courtly life. Also some interesting stuff on China's relationship with Japan at the time. (11th Century)

Hell, also Geisha by Liza Dalby, because its brilliant and has lots of historical content on the geisha tradition. She's also got a book out on the history of the kimono, I don't have that one.

-----------
Edited for spelling

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On 8/12/2003 at 1:27pm, Sneaky Git wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Wow. Great List so far. A lot of the must reads have been covered all ready. Musashi is an excellent read. And Hagakure is fantastic. Also of note is a novelization of the Tale of the Heike. It's called Genpei, and was written by Kara Dalkey. I found Secrets of the Samurai: The Martial Arts of Feudal Japan to be an interesting read. Well-referenced, it provides a look at the exponents of bujutsu (bushi and heimin), where they learned, and what they learned (both inner and outer). Pretty neat stuff.

Shipwrecks, by Akira Yoshimura, was a quick read, and dark. All about a fishing village in medieval Japan that gains much of its prosperity by luring ships onto the shoals around their village (during stormy nights) and then slaughtering their crews and plundering them. All I can say is that payback is a bitch. Great read.

The Sano Ichiro mysteries (Laura Joh Rowland) were good, if a bit formulaic.

The Fox Woman, by Kij Johnson, was fun, telling the story of a Kitsune that had fallen in love with a human.

Hideyoshi (Mary Elizabeth Berry) delves into the life and times of the man who set the table for the Tokugawa.

Edwin O. Reischauer is considered by many to be the leading American scholar on things Japanese. Somewhat dry, his books do tend to be informative.

I can't remember if it has already been mentioned, but Everyday Life in Traditional Japan (Charles Dunn) is a "must-read" for those interested in learning about life in traditional Japan.

If you are not purely interested in Japan, the you have to take a look at Jonathan D. Spence. God's Chinese Son, Treason by the Book, and many others (most of his stuff is very good) would go a long way towards inserting a Chinese "feel" to TRoJ...if that is what you'd like.

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On 8/12/2003 at 8:15pm, Brian Leybourne wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

You could also do worse than Eric Van Lustbader's "Nicholas Linnear" series (The Ninja, The Miko, White Ninja, The Kaisho, and a couple more I forget the names of).

Modern setting, but they go a lot into the mysticism and grandeur of ancient (and modern) Japan.

Brian.

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On 8/13/2003 at 3:35am, 6inTruder wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Did you mean the traditional Tale of the Heike, or the Yoshikawa version?

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On 8/13/2003 at 5:22am, Quadral wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

6inTruder, if you're asking me, I read the translated traditional version, not the Yoshikawa version. It's pretty involved reading, but worth it. I haven't read the Yoshikawa book.

I noticed no one has mentioned anything about the Bakumatsu (end of the Tokugawa era). (besides Ruroni Kenshin) Does anyone have suggestions on books or movies for this period?

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On 8/13/2003 at 6:16am, abzu wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Jake Norwood wrote: Assume that I've seen every Kurosawa movie. 6 times. Some of these are new reccomendations, though, which is what I wanted.

Jake


Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa
a very good description of the inner path of the sword. (but a bit maudlin at times.) Very japanese. Very long.

The Osprey Man-at-Arms series has some good stuff on medieval japanese soldiers (some of it illustrated by Angus McBride), and their book on Sekigahara is one of their best, in my opinion. Also, they just release a book on Warrior Monks. ::drool::

-L

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On 8/13/2003 at 3:28pm, tralese wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

I did the fatal mistake of trying to watch Shogun in one single setting. 6 hours fo a movie where most of the languag was in japanese. It was long and difficult, but it remains a classic for the japanese fan.

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On 8/13/2003 at 7:31pm, 6inTruder wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

I noticed no one has mentioned anything about the Bakumatsu (end of the Tokugawa era). (besides Ruroni Kenshin) Does anyone have suggestions on books or movies for this period?

Um...
*looks around*
Sword of Doom?

... Oh, and that other Karl Friday book: Legacies of the Sword.

And I've got the Heike Monogatari. Translated anyway. Never finished it though. The Yoshikawa version I've not seen a complete translation of unfortunately (yeah, they really published half a book). Still an interesting read.

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On 8/14/2003 at 6:52am, Quadral wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

I haven't seen it, so I didn't recognise the title. I'll check it out. Thanks for the recommendation.

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On 8/14/2003 at 5:08pm, Grex wrote:
Re: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

Jake Norwood wrote: Do any of you have some suggestions? My list is pretty large, and I'm pretty well read, but there's always stuff that slips through the cracks...

Am I the first to mention Zatoichi? It is quite possibly the finest chambara franchise of all time; some episodes even surpass Kurosawa's samurai epics in terms of, well, "japaneseness". Also, many of the characters in the series, notably Zatoichi himself, are driven by complex emotions, principles, or flaws -- prime TRoS-fodder.

Here's a link to a review of my personal favorite episode, Zatoichi and the Chest of Gold:

http://www.kungfucinema.com/reviews/zatoichi06.htm

(This is all very IMHO; I'm a complete sucker for Zatoichi)

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On 8/14/2003 at 8:24pm, hanschristianandersen wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

I have to put in a good word for Hiroaki Samura's manga "Blade of the Immortal", especially the later volumes. It's kind of long at this point (11 volumes, or so,) and the initial volumes are a bit on the ridiculous/over-the-top side...

...but once the series really starts maturing, it's incredible TROS material. The characters are all individuals who have their own reasons and justifications for being swordsmen, and their motives for killing are pure SA material. Its core plot, of a swordsman's daughter (who's not really much of a swordswoman herself) seeking revenge for her father's death, perfectly fits Riddle's central questions and themes.

From a research/sourcebook standpoint, it's filled with "street-level" detail about the daily life of a bladesli... er, Ronin in early Tokugawa-era Japan; details like what sort of papers you need to cross province borders, cheap inns, organized crime, law enforcement, little stands by the side of the road selling rice cakes, rival kenjutsu dojo, the way rumors travel in a small community... I don't know how historically authentic it all is, but as material for making a game *seem* authentic and lifelike, it's excellent.

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On 8/15/2003 at 9:54am, Morte wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

I second the plug for Hiroshi Inagaki's film trilogy "Musashi Miyamoto", "Duel at Ichijoji Temple", and "Duel at Ganyru Island"; and I'd add two film adaptations of "The 47 Ronin": Kenzi Mizoguchi's from 1941 and Inagaki's from 1962 (usually titled "Chushingura").

Great stuff. Useful for flavour and Japan-centric spiritual attributes.

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On 8/15/2003 at 5:32pm, 6inTruder wrote:
RE: Must-read/view Samurai stuff

....?! Am I the only one who found the Musashi Trilogy really kinda dull? I mean, I own it and all, but the book was WAY more interesting. The Mifune factor is always nice, and I guess if one is all with the strapped for time... Crump! I really don't mean this to be comming down on other people's movie tastes (my can run REALLY bad) but enough of what I really enjoyed about the book was cut from the film, so please just take this as a differing oppinion ^_^

The '62 Chushingura is beautiful! So I'll second the recomendation there.

And has anyone mentioned Red Beard specificaly?

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