Topic: Just Praise
Started by: lumpley
Started on: 10/16/2001
Board: Adept Press
On 10/16/2001 at 3:17am, lumpley wrote:
Just Praise
This isn't substantive, but I've been rereading Sorcerer this evening and my gracious it's a smart game. I think it was the stuff about disgruntled demons that made me want to say so, but take your pick, really.
-lumpley
On 10/16/2001 at 1:04pm, Bailywolf wrote:
RE: Just Praise
Yeah, Props to Ron and all the brilliant Minisup writers. I just scored Demon Cops (a CHOICE hunk of material, more substantial than 'mainsteam' suplements three times the size and paper bound).
On 10/16/2001 at 1:36pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Just Praise
Thanks to the both of you. Looking to the future, I've put a lot of work into both Sword and Soul to make buying the books worth it even for PDF customers. I think you'll both like Sword a hell of a lot in about a month.
About Demon Cops ... I'm proud of this little bugger. One reason is that it represents an application of Sorcerer that I'd never considered while designing the game. My original mood or feel, as I've stated before, comes from Hong Kong crime drama, pulp fantasy, movies like Exorcist: Legion, and classical theater. Moving it to horror-action anime wouldn't have meant much to me at the time.
But some time last fall, I don't know why, I just got an urge to go that route, and the group said, "Sure, why not?" So Demon Cops arose strictly from an aesthetic interest, an active play group, and real role-playing.
Any discussion or comments about it would be welcome, because - although people do seem to like it - I haven't had much feedback in detail.
Best,
Ron
On 10/17/2001 at 2:54am, hardcoremoose wrote:
RE: Just Praise
Regarding Demon Cops,
As I've told Ron before, I love the damned thing. It shoots BESM all to hell. Sorcerer's reward mechanism (bonus dice for cool descriptions of what you're doing) can really bring home the trappings of any number of genres, and Ron's short (but fantastic) explanation about the conventions of anime (animation techniques, etc.) provides enough meat to create appropriate narrations. This is what other, supposedly anime-based games, have really been lacking. I just wish there had been more. :smile:
I also love Diablo del Rey. The weird town/city is one of my favorite conventions of the horrror genre - so much so that it is the focus of one potential mini-supplement idea I've been kicking around (small towns - Dunwich, Arkham, etc. - as repositories for demonic energy, and xenophobia as the basis for humanity).
Anyway, kudos to Ron. Now, if only I could get around to reading Urge, I could give it some attention.
Take care,
Scott
On 10/17/2001 at 3:20am, Jared A. Sorensen wrote:
RE: Just Praise
I completely agree.
Demon Cops beats other anime (ahem) inspired games all to hell.
On 10/17/2001 at 2:57pm, Bailywolf wrote:
RE: Just Praise
Just to add to the orgy of good feelings...
Pat yourself on the back Jared... I just ordered Schism... and love it. A bit dark-n-gnarly, but I've enjoyed it since its first incarnations on your site when it was going to be a UA expansion... and then when you had your own quirky system behind it... and now that it has ripened and spread in the warm petrie dish of Sorcerer... well, good deal all around.
I'm still reading through Demon Cops... but have found nothing to dislike and a world of great stuff to fawn over. Excelent.
I also snagged Urge (hasn't arived yet) but hope it rises to the very high marks set so far.
And truth be, what I enjoy most about this game is the sense of community I've developed about it. For this level of user-interaction, Ron deserves some kind of RPG Golden Gloves (or Globe?) award.
On 10/17/2001 at 3:41pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Just Praise
Hey,
Thanks again, to all.
Now might be a good time to point out that since September 11, sales have stunk. Before then, direct sales from the site were grossly high, with multiple orders per day, and my spies about the country confirmed steady sales off the shelves of game stores.
Since then, zilch, or close to.
Let's also consider that the date (and this is not to trivialize the far more important realities of that date) roughly coincided with the crucial re-order phase of the book's release, when distributors decided whether they wanted to dip further into Tundra's warehouse. Anyone want to bet on how risky they felt, regarding a small-press book, given the national/international crisis?
Industry news also plays into this regarding the changing role of pre-orders among distributors and retailers. Without going into details, you should know that, in 2001, these processes have become even more foggy and unreliable than their already-questionable status.
Sorcerer paid for itself. It also paid for the printing of Sorcerer and Sword. However, given current political events and the changes in ordering procedures, I have almost no hope whatsoever that sales of the basic game and Sword will be able to generate profit to cover the printing of Soul.
Well, I'm going ahead with the printing. It will probably put Adept Press back into the red, which I don't want but have to live with.
The solution? Get sales rolling again. I am convinced that Sorcerer has been slammed by a market hiccup, not by any actual falling-off of potential interest. That means that generating multiple mentions on the internet, traffic to the site, and clickety-clicks at Verza is probably possible.
Suggestions as for how would be GREATLY appreciated.
Best,
Ron
Suggestions?
On 10/17/2001 at 5:40pm, Eric wrote:
RE: Just Praise
Suggestions as for how would be GREATLY appreciated.
You've obviously read Cerebus. Did you read Dave's guide to self publishing? If so, then you know everything I do about generating buzz.
One thing you probably don't want to do is hire Claudia Christian as your cover model. :cool:
[ This Message was edited by: Eric on 2001-10-17 14:40 ]
On 10/17/2001 at 5:57pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Just Praise
Hey Eric,
Cerebus? That's the funny-animal book in cruddy black and white, right? And isn't that guy some kind of misogynist or something?
Had to say it. Yes, of course, you're right, I've been reading the book (all of it, indicia too) for nigh on many years. Still, I think that many of Sim's points have to be re-tooled for role-playing games, both as a medium in general and especially one like Sorcerer which stands half-in, half-out of the internet/store dichotomy. Out of curiosity, which of his points do YOU think is most relevant to a game like Sorcerer?
One of my longer-term strategies is described in the thread "Sorcerer On-line," in this forum. I'm happy with the long-term picture. My concern right now is kind of ... what, correction, I guess, or a bit of a jump-start to deal with the current depression in sales.
You and I may be familiar with the same stuff, but I'm sure that you (and others) can offer interpretations or applications that I am not seeing.
Best,
Ron
[ This Message was edited by: Ron Edwards on 2001-10-17 13:58 ]
On 10/17/2001 at 7:08pm, furashgf wrote:
RE: Just Praise
I was thinking of doing a run through for my RPG club (it's mostly D&D). Did the demo packet ever get done? Would this work as a way to drive interest? What about RPG-NET? Has anybody (not Ron) done a review of the suppliments?
On 10/17/2001 at 7:31pm, Jared A. Sorensen wrote:
RE: Just Praise
As far as I know, Schism is the only supplement that's been reviewed (on RPG.net, GO and RPGAction.com). These are the three sites to which I sent review copies -- dunno if any other supplement writers did the same.
On 10/18/2001 at 4:57pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Just Praise
Gary,
I have a little handout that is meant to accompany the "demon house" introductory scenario in the rules. It's not wildly sophisticated, but it's not bad for jump-starting a session to see how the game works.
Best,
Ron
On 10/18/2001 at 5:19pm, Eric wrote:
RE: Just Praise
Cerebus? That's the funny-animal book in cruddy black and white, right? And isn't that guy some kind of misogynist or something?
That's it. Amazing that he is publishing story he is and making money at it. My only theory is that people will forgive nearly anything if you make them laugh.
Had to say it. Yes, of course, you're right, I've been reading the book (all of it, indicia too) for nigh on many years. Still, I think that many of Sim's points have to be re-tooled for role-playing games, both as a medium in general and especially one like Sorcerer which stands half-in, half-out of the internet/store dichotomy. Out of curiosity, which of his points do YOU think is most relevant to a game like Sorcerer?
I think [literally. I've never tried to sell a small press game or comic book, so I'm only talking about in theory] going to all the cons you can afford and doing all the demos you can stand is the only strategy that works in a hobby with a user base as small as gaming's. Meeting all the game store owners you can work in is part of that. From observation, I would say that this strategy works best if you are not bashful and if you have some charisma. Personally, I would rather never publish anything than put myself out there like that. Which is one of the reasons that I haven't published a small press game.
At the moment, are you trying to market to retailers or to customers? If it is retailers, and if you are willing to go into the red anyway, and if I'm right in my impression that dealers do their ordering out of something like the Diamond catalog, would you be better off spending the money on a bigger ad in that ordering catalog? Is there any hope that doing so would get enough orders to pay for the print run of Soul? Isn't the answer ultimately to have as many copies of the base rules on the shelves as possible?
One of my longer-term strategies is described in the thread "Sorcerer On-line," in this forum. I'm happy with the long-term picture. My concern right now is kind of ... what, correction, I guess, or a bit of a jump-start to deal with the current depression in sales.
I'm personally less interested in the database of characters and demons, but I would like to see the write ups of actual play. Particularly if your questions can get the reports in a format that is interesting to read.
You and I may be familiar with the same stuff, but I'm sure that you (and others) can offer interpretations or applications that I am not seeing.
I believe Howard Stern's dictum that lesbians = ratings, but I've never seen a way to apply that to rpgs. The franchise model of marketing clearly works in rpgs, but I think a d20 version of Sorcerer defeats your point. Maybe a d20 version of your supplements would make the money you need. It seems to be working for Atlas.
The during the one serious attempt my friends and I ever made at producing an rpg, I tried to sell them on using the spokesmen model to market the game. No one was interested, but I remain convinced that just as George Foreman sold grills and Asimov has sold magazines, so to could putting someone's name on the cover sell rpgs. Particularly if that someone was a lesbian. :cool:
On 10/18/2001 at 6:31pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Just Praise
Hi Eric,
Well, we crossed wires a little, I think.
For one thing, my description of Dave Sim was intended to be humorous, as I have very high regard for him and his work. (I don't idolize him, but I have high regard.) But that's not the purpose of this site and forum, so let's leave that one to twist in the wind of miscommunication.
More importantly, I think that the situation in role-playing marketing is dangerously dysfunctional. That's why my customer is the end-user, the role-player. Always has been, always will be. I respect and want to work with retailers insofar as they are facilitating the commerce between me and that customer. One would THINK that this was a mutualistic relationship between manufacturer and retailer, but it isn't, not now, not for role-playing games.
(I'll wait until some other, more appropriate moment to go into the big discussion of RPG commerce.)
So my concern is mainly getting people EITHER into stores, asking about Sorcerer and its supplements, OR to the site, to buy them there. Either one is fine by me. Marketing directly to the retailers, aside from what I'm already doing through Tundra and Sphinx, as well as through the demo offer, is not where I want to go.
Best,
Ron
On 10/19/2001 at 12:19am, furashgf wrote:
RE: Just Praise
Where can I download the handout for the demo of Deamon House?
On 10/19/2001 at 6:43pm, Eric wrote:
RE: Just Praise
On 2001-10-18 14:31, Ron Edwards wrote:
Hi Eric,
Well, we crossed wires a little, I think.
I like Cerebus too. And I still eagerly read every issue, and enjoy most of them. It is just sad about the anti-woman thing. Dave is so right about so much else.
(I'll wait until some other, more appropriate moment to go into the big discussion of RPG commerce.)
I look forward to reading it.
So my concern is mainly getting people EITHER into stores, asking about Sorcerer and its supplements, OR to the site, to buy them there. Either one is fine by me.
Okay. I'm sad to say that brings us back to lesbians. :cool:
Gamers are a hard market to reach, but you might look into local ad rates for whatever cable channel is carrying Buffy in the largest metropolitan area close to you. I have yet to meet a narrative focused roleplayer who didn't like at least the first three seasons of Buffy.
On 10/19/2001 at 7:07pm, Paul Czege wrote:
RE: Just Praise
I believe Howard Stern's dictum that lesbians = ratings....The during the one serious attempt my friends and I ever made at producing an rpg, I tried to sell them on using the spokesmen model to market the game. No one was interested, but I remain convinced that just as George Foreman sold grills and Asimov has sold magazines, so to could putting someone's name on the cover sell rpgs. Particularly if that someone was a lesbian.
Ellen DeGeneris presents, Golem Killers, a roleplaying game by Paul Czege.
Hmmm...
On 10/19/2001 at 7:12pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Just Praise
Lesbian Diabolists, a mini-supplement for Sorcerer ...
No. I absolutely refuse.
Wait ... sales, you say? Website traffic? Profits?
Oh I hate these moral dilemmas.
Best,
Ron
On 10/19/2001 at 7:18pm, Paul Czege wrote:
RE: Just Praise
As if Matt hadn't already seized the golden piggy bank with Kayfabe, imagine a lesbian wrestling supplement.
Paul
On 10/19/2001 at 7:37pm, Blake Hutchins wrote:
RE: Just Praise
Oy.
On 10/19/2001 at 7:38pm, Eric wrote:
RE: Just Praise
On 2001-10-19 15:18, Paul Czege wrote:
As if Matt hadn't already seized the golden piggy bank with Kayfabe, imagine a lesbian wrestling supplement.
Paul
Okay, I don't get this reference, and google gives me no satisfactory hints. Would you mind spelling it out?
I've always thought it was weird that men's wrestling was more popular than women's, but I suppose that it is topic for a different thread.
Much as I like Ellen, I don't think she'd sell many books. At least not to gamers. Now Amber Benson . . . .
On 10/19/2001 at 7:52pm, Paul Czege wrote:
RE: Just Praise
The Forge's very own Matt Gwinn has his game Kayfabe here http://www.angelfire.com/games3/errantknight/kayfabe/.
The Ellen reference was an attempt to be funny by failing to understand how lesbianism works as a selling point.
Paul
On 10/19/2001 at 8:03pm, Eric wrote:
RE: Just Praise
Thanks. Too bad I didn't know about that game when I was writing reviews of wrestling games, which thankfully remains the only freelance gig I've ever quit.